Rescue Thai Boys

One of the huge unknowns for us out here consuming media stories is how narrow, how sharp and jagged and how many twists and turns there are on the way out. Since an experienced Thai Nave Seal diver lost his life down there I assume it it pretty bad. With life and death depending upon not damaging the tube I would be uncomfortable with the idea.

I think the only choices are 1) find a back door, 2) buddy dive out, 3) find a pump(s) that can pump water out faster than it come in, 4) drill a shaft big enough for people or 5) wait for the next dry season (possibly drilling a small air & food transport hole). Back door would be best but finding an unknown back door big enough is a very long shot.

My guess is that they will buddy dive out but look for technology to help the boys as much as possible. Some sort of a full helmet with an intercom to the Seal buddy would help a lot. Panic is probably their biggest threat. Beyond that my guess is that they will have to cross their fingers, put their big-boy pants on and hope for the best.

The only cave I have ever been in had stairs going down and a non-slip walkway surface that the cave operator had installed for tourists. After reading this story I don't think I would ever go back to a "safe" cave like that again.

From all that I have read,the water is very cold,and the boys need wet suits to survive the LONG SWIM.

Finding the proper size wet suits has been a problem.

Even with air tanks staged along the way,it is still a very risky operation.

You cannot teach a boy in a few days what it takes a SEAL years to learn.

They will probably use re breather apparatus to extend the range,but they will have to be removed when going through narrow passages,and this is problematic for untrained personnel.Same problem with standard tanks.

Musk proposed an air tube,made from Kevlar,which is very puncture resistant,but it would require an airlock at each end to pressurize it,and decompression at the end before exiting.I propose a double walled tube,with normal atmospheric pressure inside the tube, but the walls inflate enough to displace the water outside of the tube.

I have gloves that are cut and puncture proof made from Kevlar and carbon fiber,and they are very thin and pliable.

It would not interfere with the passage dimensions if the tube was thin enough.

All of the pumps they have are maxed out,and if the monsoon hits before they are evacuated,it will be too late.

They could slightly pressurize the cave with air and an inert gas,like argon or helium and look for an opening by scanning the surface for the tracer gas.

If water got into the cave,there must be openings somewhere.

If it is air tight,then they could pressurize the caves to force the water out.

This of course,would require decompression before exiting at atmospheric pressure,but it is better than perishing.

I am sure all suggestions will be welcomed by all concerned.

It’s the time to construct it... but it appears, as long as they have the ability for people to risk their lives... they could be down there for a while.

and the Seal that died... it was over a 5 hour hike for him that consists of under water, scaling cliffs and crawling through small crawl spaces.

and this Seal was trained to do this...

It look like the cave they are in is higher elevation than the lower caves,but there are quite a few air-locks,like the trap on a kitchen drain,but not smooth of course.

Perhaps pressurizing the cave would purge the water from other sections as well.I don't know how much pressure or volume would be required,but it is worth instigating..

Yesterday, more rain was expected?...

they tried pumping the water out... but there was an issue with that.

The biggest issue trying to get the boys out now is controlling emotions. Panic is the killer.

I wonder if a barometric pressure reading was performed where the boys are? That simple test may indicate if this pocket is sealed or not. If it is sealed then drilling a hole might make things worse.

I suspect they will have to leave by the flooded path. Maybe some strategic rock carving at the tight passages will help.

I know it was talked about, but Are they actually drilling or getting ready to drill now?

I don't see any drilling from my window. (That's a joke son.)

Are your sure?,... how bout now?

The cave is huge....

..."Thai officials launched a massive search and rescue operation in Khun Nam Nang Non Forest Park involving more than 1,000 people, including specialists drafted from various nations such as Australia, China, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States.

More than a week later, two British cave divers found all 13 alive in an area that's about three miles from the cave's main entrance. It took the divers nearly six hours to navigate through a treacherous maze of caverns and tunnels, both dry and flooded, with some barely wide enough for their diving equipment."...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/inside-rescue-effort-save-soccer-team-trapped-inside/story?id=56380144

This is one that should be left to the experts, on-site.

I think Musk's concept of the tube would not require decompression, because he would "inflate with air like a bouncy castle."

Rescue pod 2.0....

Well maybe next time.....

Give the guy, and his crew, an E for effort.

It doesn’t hurt to think of solutions , that particular one won’t fit through the tight convoluted 38cm necks in parts of the tunnel but now it’s available , tested and verified as a capability .

if there were injured kids , then a flexible bladder tube with the same fresh air feed could work to keep them alive and also prevent wound infection from exposure to the dirty water .

with the resources of people like these,... I see a possible endeavor of this type getting put together for future catastrophes such as this.

It's 2.5 miles back to where the kids are at; that's a LOT of water to traverse.

My question is what is a group of kids doing so deep in a cave without some sort of professional guide, surely there must be some sort of warning that this cave is prone to flooding...It seems to me the coach showed extremely poor judgement, and will probably lose his job over this....that is if he makes it out alive....

...and I might add that the water is not still, it is flowing with strong currents, making the egress even more difficult and treacherous...one good man has already lost his life....

They were warned.

Hey, what could possibly go wrong?

Thailand cave rescue: Friends say boys ignored warnings - CNN

"The Tham Luang Nang Non caves are known locally as off-limits, a dangerous place where parents warn their children not to go into, especially during monsoon season.The Tham Luang Nang Non caves are known locally as off-limits, a dangerous place where parents warn their children not to go into, especially during monsoon season. The12 young teammates and their coach who inexplicably defied local warnings and wandered deep into the cave."

So then the coach should be charged in the death of this man...

This is Thailand, not the USA. Time will tell.

I don't want to blame anyone until people are rescued and then given the opportunity to explain their actions. For all we know the coach went into the cave to rescue a headstrong kid and the rest followed with the same incentive.

In that case he should have exited the cave and contacted an emergency rescue service...rescuing 1 kid would be a lot easier than 13....

So says the man who has never made a mistake.

I paid for my mistakes...You sound like somebody who has never been held accountable...

Well I've never been arrested, have you?

I did get a citation for driving through a stop sign I did not see. I paid the fine the next day. My first college sued me for a semester I couldn't attend due to medical reasons a decade later. I promptly paid the court ruling and then counter sued for failure to notify and wrongful civil action. I held them accountable.

Shall I now hold you accountable for something I think you did without offering a chance to defend yourself?

What kind of mistakes , please share so I can learn from them ?

I will share one of mine but perhaps the topic of mistakes deserves a whole new thread.

i was 22 years old and should have known better... I started work in an auto shop with its car park right next to a highway.

the 16 year old apprentice was admiring my 650 Yamaha motorcycle and asked if he could start it up for a listen , he said he had ridden bikes all his life so I let him sit on it and start it up.

i heard a shout from the boss and turned over my shoulder to look at his horrified face just as I heard the kid clunk the bike into first gear , before I could hit the kill switch he had hit the throttle and was spinning the wheel out the gate and speared across 2 lanes of traffic totally out of control before he dropped it on its side .

Miraculously no collision occurred and nobody was injured but I gave myself several mental uppercuts for being too trusting , and showing poor judgement .

AP never learns... because first you need to own up...

Two can play that ANON game:

OK Kids.

Pipe down!

There are adults talking here!

Why are you talking then? Twins... AP 1 and AP 2

Why offer such an uninformed opinion about what should have been done?

Was it noon or midnight when the cave was entered?

Was the group lost?

Are there ‘Good Samaritan’ laws in Thailand?

Are any of the boys considered of legal age under Thai laws, and culpable for their own well being in addition to a responsibility to the group? Are they all over the age of majority?

What is done is done, this is where we are, one problem at a time.

You only have to watch YouTube videos of Thailand dash cam , construction mistakes or workplace accidents in that country to see that , like many parts of Asia , there is a culture of risk taking , shoddy unsafe work practices and a general uncaring attitude to safety and human life.

as reflected in their current circumstances.

Maybe they were lured in there by a UFO. We don't know what happened yet, and if they all die we may never know.

Let's wait and see how this plays out.

They're starting the rescue and expect to get the first kid out by Sunday night tomorrow...Two divers will accompany each kid, ages 11 thru 16....

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/thai-officials-clear-media-cave-site-rescue-attempt-trapped-boys-n889626

Glad to hear that!

At least now there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Godspeed to all.

4 of the boys are now rescued out of the cave and recovering in the hospital....the rescue divers will rest and wait for the tides for ~10 hrs to begin next phase of rescue...

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/thailand-cave-rescue-today-live-updates-2018-07-08/

UFOs never go into caves unless the military puts them there. Haven't you been paying attention?

The aliens I know live in caves during the day to avoid detection.

There are many portraits of aliens in caves....

Nice pics to put in the UFO thread next door :)

I have hundreds of hours of diving experience from my younger days. I have been ice diving and night diving and, just once, have I been on burned out civil war wrecks in zero visibility in 6 to 10 feet of silted up river. I spent about 15 minutes rooting around tangled lumber and tree trunks by feel looking for artifacts before my nerve ran out. Never, ever again will I do that.

I can't even begin to speculate about any solutions to a nasty situation half way around the world. And, yes, I spent two monsoon seasons in SE Asia.The amount of water involved cannot be imagined by the average American. I've had the fire put out in helicopter turbine engines by flying through those washouts.

Hooker

I heard this morning that 2 boys were pulled out of the cave.

I understand that 6 of the 12 boys are now out.

Sorry 4 out of 12 are now rescued

Amazed that seven boys are out now. Even more amazing is that the operation has come together so quickly and is working as hoped, at least so far.

All 12 boys and coach now out of cave....though some are in poor condition...

...."The third phase of the high-risk rescue operation for the boys and their coach trapped in a cave in Thailand played out quickly on Tuesday. Hours after Thai officials confirmed that 19 divers had entered the cave complex in Chiang Rai province to extract the remaining four children and their assistant coach, several of them were brought out on stretchers.

Four boys were rescued Sunday and an additional four emerged on Monday.

The boys, ages 11-16, and their 25-year-old assistant coach became stranded when they went exploring inside after a practice game. Monsoon flooding blocked their escape and prevented rescuers from finding them for almost 10 days."...

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/thai-cave-rescue-soccer-team-all-out-of-cave-in-thailand-2018-07-10-live-updates/

That they are all out is a relief. That the rescue cost the life of one of the rescuers is tragic.

The latest pontifications by Musk are unbelievable.

His proposal while having merit in some circumstances was clearly noted not to be suitable due to the tight bottlenecks in this case. In my very limited caving experience these bottlenecks are all too frequent and anything rigid is bound to fail

Yet despite the Thai authorities successfully rescuing all the boys and their coach with just the very sad loss of a Thai diver he is all over the media criticising the Thai authorities presumably for not rolling out the red carpet for their lord and saviour the great white man from over the sea.

Musk has done some amazing stuff but this incident lends weight to theissues with Tesla that he wont countenance other views and ignores problems.

I don't see any media reports with him criticizing Thai authorities, could you post some links?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/10/elon-musk-queries-expertise-of-thai-cave-rescue-officials

Engineering expert queries ex politician...

Although this politician seems to have done what we want them to do.

Fronted up to keep the media and wannabee heroes out of the way. Let the experts get on with it and get them the kit they need to do their job. And let them get all the credit.

..."“We’re worried about the smallest lad,” British diver and one of the rescue coordinators, Richard Stanton, had written in a July 8 email to Musk, posted online, urging him to develop his escape pod made from rocket parts, in case the boy was unable to make the dangerous dive."...

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-thai-cave-rescue-day3-20180710-story.html#

All politics aside,all who participated and contributed to the rescue receive my unconditional respect.
This was a world wide uniting project,with all countries sending their best people and ideas.
One hero gave his greatest gift,to give his life to save others.
He will not be forgotten.
All of the others risked the same.
A plaque should be put in place at the entrance honoring him and all of the divers that risked their lives to rescue the people in that cave.
I am sure many ideas were considered,and evaluated based on the time limits and physical and psychological constraints involved,and many were rejected before deciding on the best method.
Brain storming is like that;Everyone throws in their ideas,and they are culled and sorted until there is finally a workable solution that is most likely to succeed.
I am glad the system works most of the time.
What a wonderful world it would be if all of mankind could work together on everything.

In the air of a tragedy, is where the positives of humanity coming together, not for recognition, but to the relief of strangers dire plight ...

Miners' survival during 2010 Copiapó mining accident

Baby Jessica

The name is Saman Gunan, the Thai Navy Seal that died making sure the kids stuck in the cave had enough oxygen so that today's rescue would even be possible.

Interesting that having his ego pricked provoked a hissy fit and now its got the investors nervous. The old WWII adage of careless lips springs to mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/17/tesla-elon-musk-thailand-diver-pedo

Vern's comments were a bit harsh as one of the other diver's had contacted a number of companies, including Tesla, about producing a sub type device but seeing as he and his colleagues had put their lives on the line and one had made the ultimate sacrifice I can understand getting a little salty about somene whining about not getting a chance of glory.