Still Doubting Dark Matter?

If I may, a perception of it's effects is felt.

We really do not know the true cause of these effects, but it acts AS IF invisible matter were present.What else can bend space time? EM fields? X fields?

Could there possibly exist a defect(s) in the hypothetically perfect space time continium, an anomaly that was a birth defect of the big bang? This would have caused the primordial gas clouds to accrete in these areas, and give rise to galaxies in their present locations.When galaxies collide, does the "dark matter " move,or stay relatively stationary with respect to absolute position?

If it moves, it could be an effect of the bending of space time by regular matter, a force generated similar to the emf when magnetic lines are bent by a conductor.

Point being, there are many possiblilties to consider, and to seek the truth sometimes requires heresy.

"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." -- Orville Wright

It is very uncomfortable for me to accept infinity, in anything.The word is often used as a vast landfill into which to dump the inexplicable or unexplainable.It simply means beyond or realm of understanding or measurement.As we slowly creep up the elephant of knowledge, more and more is revealed, and we have a more valid picture of reality.

I know that mathematicians have proven that Pi is irrational, but I somehow cannot accept the fact that billions of bubbles are constantly forming in the universe.Perfect bubbles.Stable bubbles.They do not keep growing, looking for that final definiton of Pi.

There must be an inherent flaw in our math that falls apart in certain conditions.An expert at origami can create shapes for which there is no know geometric formula.Yet the shapes are valid.And so it is,I think, with our universe.Nature makes the rules, it is for us to figure them out.If it takes infinite energy to travel at the speed of light, there could only be one photon.There would be no energy left in the universe.Is there something wrong with this picture, or is it simply beyond me to grasp reality, or do I simply have the elephant by the tail end?

HTRN

Hi HTRN, you wrote: "If it takes infinite energy to travel at the speed of light, there could only be one photon. ... or do I simply have the elephant by the tail end?"

Man, have you got that elephant, I mean the photon, by the tail end!

Photons have zero rest mass (they cannot be at rest anyway), so their energies cannot go to infinity, unless they can sport infinite frequency...

While the energy of a particle with mass is E = mc²/√(1-v²/c²) in some frame, the energy of a photon is E = h/λ in that same frame, where v and λ are velocity and wavelength measured in that frame respectively. Both are obviously reference frame dependent.

Jorrie

So did you say that the mass equation and the speed equation are equal, but different for the thing that is both and cannot stop to be either? That is what I thought you said in English, and the equations were the evidence.

Forgive me I have an interest in this and will check out other sources, but never did get well educated as far as equations are concerned.

Jorrie, I think you started this discussion. Have we added anything to your conception of it?

The discussion caused me to re-accept the concept of universes as numerous as inscects with light moving at different constant speeds in different universes. Is Dark Light a better name for Dark Matter?

Does Dark Matter cause Black Holes, and is that some sort of shear between Universes of different constant light speeds?

If we looked for evidence to support such a conception, where would we find it?

What if the right answer is only the understanding, with no other evidence?

I sort of doubt Dark Matter still, though I have a conception of what might produce it. Would you compare it to the dust of Black Holes?

It has been an interesting discussion, though I would like to get to some conclusion that would either confirm or eliminate my doubt one way or another.

Hi Transcendian, you wrote: "So did you say that the mass equation and the speed equation are equal, but different for the thing that is both and cannot stop to be either? "

I wrote: "While the energy of a particle with mass is E = mc²/√(1-v²/c²) in some frame, the energy of a photon is E = h/λ in that same frame, where v and λ are velocity and wavelength measured in that frame respectively. Both are obviously reference frame dependent."

It means that you use one equation for massive particles and the other one for photons (or any other particle with zero mass). In a way both equations are present for everything, but as soon as there is mass the mass-speed part dominates and when there is no mass, the wavelength part dominates.

You also asked: "Does Dark Matter cause Black Holes, and is that some sort of shear between Universes of different constant light speeds?"

Dark matter is affected by gravity like any other matter, so yes, it may cause a black hole to form if enough of it is concentrated in a small enough space (high enough density). Dark matter is probably what makes galaxies and stars to form in the first place and it is usually the centers of galaxies and also individual massive stars that are thought to create black holes.

About multiple universes, I know nothing, I'm afraid. I'm just trying to understand our own one and I'm still very far from reaching that goal...

Jorrie

Jorrie,

One thing that seems to have been overlooked in the initial gathering together of matter is static charge.Put a bunch of styrofoam beads into a plastic bag and shake it up---they gather together due to the static attraction between them.When the first particles of matter were formed, there surely were differences in charge (electrons) between them.When 2 unlike particles attract, they would neutralize each other, but the result would be more mass in one place.Multiply this effect, and clumps would form, which would have more attraction to other clumps due to gravity, etc.This could accellerate the formation of galaxies and enhance the gravitational effect. Perhaps the static charge has dissipated by now, or there could still be a massive charge difference at play in the galaxies today. How could we detect it?

Just a thought...HTRN

That is not correct. Styrofoam beads like that will all repel each other. If they stuck together, the world, as we know it, would come to an end...

Have you actually tried this, or is this just speculation.Stick your arm into a styrofoam filled box ..do the beads cling to your arm?Yes, they do, as well as to each other.Consider oppositely charged particles in space:they will attract to each other.

This force is greater than their intrinsic gravity.Perhaps static attraction is dominant at first, until the particles have gathered enough mass for gravity to be dominant. This would result in a faster formation of massive structures like galaxies, and the spider-web sponge- like distribution of matter in the VISIBLE universe.

Ionized particles are constantly being discharged by solar winds from every star in the universe, so I think static forces are still a power to be considered.

IMHO

HTRN

I recently learned of the static charge experiment performed on the shuttle. It was performed with various substances. maybe this static charge is the foundation of gravity?

Can dark matter be uncharged neutral atoms of He.

It seems to me that with it's filled shell it will ionize less easily than H2.

H2 also can be broken and have it's single electon pushed up/down the ladder by stray radiation and particles, leading to emission?

I think essentially I have got where you are, though I'm not sure if Cosmic Rays have mass or not. The discussion has caused me to consider that there might be a universe with a different speed for light. The wormholes and dark matter in this universe of galaxies do not seem to be fully understood.

I am left now to wonder if there are mathamatics and enough evidence that could create an equation explaining an interaction of Universes with different constant speeds for light, and all other things being the same.

Would this give Black Holes, & Wormholes a place to go?

The reading I did along with this discussion on Wikepedia implies I am not the only one who has come to this point.

We have come far enough to understand more about energy and matter than we did when we could simply keep a fire going. Should it be that we understand how to actually time travel, which last I knew actually meant making another parrallel universe, it would seem we ought to do it, since otherwise we will become extinct, albeit sooner or later.

I am left with the wonder if there were universes as complete as the one we live in, what other than the speed of light could be the distinquishing factor?

Cosmic rays do have mass. They are charged particles travelling very close to the speed of light 99.9999+% of C. Protons dominate cosmic rays, but there are many other elements represented. They have the enhanced mass of their velocity, so when they hit the atmosphere they create huge showers of collision derived particles.

Some way some have the energy of a well hit tennis ball. Being stcu a small point they go right through people and things with little damage. They do produce cerenkov scintillations in the clear fluid of the eye.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22cosmic+ray%22+%2Bwiki&meta=

I knew some of my dreams were from somewhere else, outside of myself. Thanks to aurizon.

Hi Guest. You said: "If it takes infinite energy to travel at the speed of light, there could only be one photon.There would be no energy left in the universe." It's not like this. An object with mass needs to absorb infinite amount of energy in order to succeed to reach the exact speed of light (c). [And that's because its mass tends to become infinite as its speed approaches c. So, if its speed is slightly below c you need to give to the object infinite force (or energy) in order to accelerate it slightly more and reach exact c (because its mass is infinite).] This is not the case with a photon though. The photon has no mass (meaning no rest mass... if you "stop" a photon, in any way, the photon simply doesn't exist any more... It exists only when it travels... and its speed is, always, c... then it has a "mass" corresponding to its energy which is m=E/c²...) If sth has no (rest) mass (m→0) you can accelerate it with any finite (and tiny) amount of energy till the speed c. You can create a photon using an amount of energy and this energy is carried, from now on, by the photon.

P.S. Much of what we have discussed in this thread is addressed in the Scientific American Article Window on the Extreme Universe. This is in the December 2007 issue. It is interesting that in the same issue there is an article about Hugh Everett and his theory of multiple universes which this discussion caused me to think of as dependent on universes with different speeds for light. www.nasa.gov/glast is the website given for more information at the end of the article about the Gamma-ray Large Area Space Telescope and Large Hadron Collider which are intended to get us some evidence for resolving some of our questions.

Hi Everyone,

This is addressed to everyone and not one particular individual.

Some say "I believe..." Belief is an assertion without any proof.

Others refer to the Special Relativity factors and frames of reference. No-one comments on moving clocks running slower as shown by Jefimenko in one of my previous blogs.

No-one comments on the work of Haisch and Rueda in arXiv showing that an accelerating object has greater mass than if in constant linear motion because of its interaction with the zero-point field.

Have I missed something basic in the Casimir experiment and the Lamb-Rutherford Effect. Does liquid helium not need around 25 bar pressure as well as cooling to get it to turn solid by opposing the zero-point pressure?

No-one suggests that dark matter/energy could be the zero-point field itself.

Why does everyone stick to a 1905 theory as though it were carved with fire on tablets of stone when alternative explanations are well documented?

Come on guys. This is the 21st Century and you don't fall off the edge of the world if you sail too far.

Alan.

I can't say that I am a cosmologist or physicist, so/and I cannot "prove" my points. Neither can the guys who win Nobel prizes for their "theoretical" work. They believe that if they cannot show or prove something with mathmatics, then it cannot be. That is dumbest, most egotistical and exclusionary thing I have ever heard of. It truly demonstrates their lack of real wisdom. That means that they believe they know all math and are capable of figuring out anything and everything. As soon as anyone excludes anything, that means they cannot understand everything or even anything completely!

1. The big bang was NOT the origin of the universe.

2. Black holes "create" energy and matter.

3. Dark matter is simply matter accelerated past the speed of light.

4. Past the speed of light is the 4th, 5th and 6th dimensions.

5. Heaven is in the 6th dimension. God in in the 9th.

6. When you die, your soul travels "through" a black hole and is accelerated past the speed of light and into heaven.

7. Heaven is all around us all the time and only because everything in heaven is traveling faster than light, we can't detect it.

8. Time is relative to velocity, forward at less than c, backwards at greater than c, to infinity.

9. A photon is made of only two elemental particles, one inside the other, constantly balancing it's energy between the two particles.

10. The speed of light is the balance point between the third dimension and the 6th.

11. Heaven and ESP are both real, physical and determinable parts of the universe.

12. There is no such thing as an "alternate" or "parallel" universe, but there is an infinate number of universes which have been, are or will be.

Of these things, I am sure.

One last thing. God only has two directives for us all. Love and Learn. Only when you have achieved the love of all kjnowledge and the knowledge of all love, can you be with God. until then, you are relagated to Heaven, Hell or Here.

Of these things, you too will come to know.

I grow tired of the sheer lack of wisdom in the world. So many ostensibly intelligent and educated people who lack vision and original thought. Most can only repeat what they have been taught and defend their positions without the simple ability to logically consider something new.

Of these things, I have been told.

I do realize the magnitude of what it is I claim. I understand the ridicule I will have to bear. I am comforted in the knowledge I have been given.

Now for the truth. I have come to the point that I no longer care at all what people think. I know better. I am a Savant. I was born at the exact moment humanity first came face to face with the real possibility of self-destruction and I won't die until it achieves it. I will not reveal this date, but it is not for many years. Of this I have been told. Although I can recall paranormal episodes back to when I was three, I experienced two seperate and almost leathal head injuries, (besides a near death experience when I was 2, and yes I remember it all). I believe these experiences enhanced my abilities. I am given the information I posses. I cannot control what that information is, but it comes to me in revelations, mostly in spurts lasting a few weeks at a time. I also know that it is the time I must stop hiding this and tell the world what I know. Although my IQ is only measured at around 150, the wisdom I acquire from the revelations is far greater than any knowledge garnered within this world. I have kept quiet about the source of my information until here. Until now. There is an urgent reason for this, which I will reveal at a later date, when necessary.

Of this, I know.

Scientists once thought that depth perception could only be totally understood if one had vision.A person that had never had vision could not conceive of depth of field. They have been proven wrong by a blind artist,born with no eyes,that paints amazing pictures with depth, using only his fingers.Apparently, it can be mentally constructed by the brain separate and apart from visual experience. All matter and energy is invisible or dark to a blind person, but they exist none the less.What if everyone on this planet was blind? There would be no describable distinction between "dark matter" and "dark energy". Dark matter emits energy of some form,albeit beyond our measurable spectrum at our present level of technology. Perhaps it is matter that is out of phase with our universe,vibrating,at the string level,at a frequency that cancels out the normal characteristics associated with matter,but not the gravity thereof.Two colliding waves of different frequencies will yield a frequency equal to the difference of the two frequencies.Not to mention possible harmonics that can create effects not anticipated.With all of the matter in a galaxie,of differing types,there surely are some unforseen interactions.Perhaps even gravity waves locking phase to enhance their mutual effect.The galaxie is like a giant ocean, with waves constantly moving thru it.Statistically speaking, it is inevitable that giant "Rogue Waves" of gravity could form, where apparently random waves sometimes combine forces.Perhaps these waves occur at such a slow rate that we cannot detect them, and appear to us, in our short lifespan, to be standing still. This could appear to be matter where none is otherwise observable. The possiblilties are nearly infinite. HTRN