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Radiation Pattern

03/22/2019 12:48 PM

I know of a AM Broadcast station, typical AM Stick. That not too long ago got a Cellphone monopole installed almost exactly a 1/4 wave away from the AM stick.

This Cell tower is almost also a 1/4 wave tall of the AM's frequency.

So 1/4 wave tall 1/4 wave away how can this new addition to the AM's site Not be messing with not only the pattern of the AM's signal but even the impedance of the AM Stick?

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#1

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/22/2019 12:55 PM

It does. So what?

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#2

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/22/2019 1:05 PM

Not sure what the question is, but here's a nice discussion and some suggestions about it....

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/939273-cell-tower-interference.html

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#3

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/22/2019 3:15 PM

A monopole antenna is just 1/2 a dipole (such as a yagi).

A Yagi antenna is just a driven dipole with a reflector 1/4 wavelength behind and a series of directors in front. The signal pattern is focused in the direction of the directors and the opposite direction of the reflector.

https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/antennas-propagation/yagi-uda-antenna-aerial/theory.php

So what you have is 1/2 of a Yagi with a reflector and no directors. So your antenna pattern would be somewhat stronger in the direction opposite the cell tower.

http://www.hamuniverse.com/yagibasics.html

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#4

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/22/2019 5:30 PM

That's what I would think. It's a small ma and pa type station, who their tech is is who knows. Just thinking the SWR is probably terrible now, and as far as the FCC is concerned they are no longer leagal either for their licensed radiation pattern is not like what is on file vs what is really now happening.

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#5

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/23/2019 11:11 AM

Is this causing you any interference, loss of signal or bleed-over?

Have you talked to mom and pop to see if they have a problem? Did you talk to the cell tower people?

We will only be guessing without specific physical measurements and a study of the before and after radiated patterns of the station.

If it ain't broke........................................

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#6

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/23/2019 12:54 PM

Since the cellphone tower is not connected to the AM tower, I would expect a small amount of direction change to the pattern. In any case it's not your problem.

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#7

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/23/2019 1:09 PM

I'm actually really amazed at the common theme of most of the replies being so negative.

Huh?

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/23/2019 3:39 PM

You've, apparently, made some assumptions here.

"Almost exactly a 1/4 wave away from the AM stick. Almost also a 1/4 wave tall of the AM's frequency: the SWR is probably terrible now, and as far as the FCC is concerned they are no longer legal either for their licensed radiation pattern is not like what is on file vs what is really now happening.

How much of the above do you know as fact?

I'm still not sure how this affects your daily life??????

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/24/2019 10:21 AM

You've, apparently, made some assumptions here.

Yes I have, BUT....

"Almost exactly a 1/4 wave away from the AM stick. Yes almost, but that really doesn't matter beit it 1/8th wave or 5 waves the result is the same. Modified pattern.

Almost also a 1/4 wave tall of the AM's frequency: Again same if it was only 30 feet tall or 3000 feet tall it will still effect the AM tower, and if not checked on it is actually against the law.

the SWR is probably terrible now, and as far as the FCC is concerned they are no longer legal either for their licensed radiation pattern is not like what is on file vs what is really now happening.

What is interesting here is who is liable if any of the above is happening THE CELL TOWER people will pay if the AM station gets any fines from the FCC.

https://www.lbagroup.com/blog/is-this-cell-tower-detuned/

https://youtu.be/I1FdOxQc-yM

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/24/2019 12:37 PM

Maybe they're OK.

"A cell tower that is extremely close to an AM tower is not a “hot” AM tower from an FCC standpoint, but still could be intercepting a high level of RF energy from the nearby AM effectively making it a “hot” tower under OSHA. All proposed installations near AM towers must continue to be evaluated for FCC and OSHA compliance with respect to maximum permissible exposure and shock and burn RF hazards, and the AM station(s) should be recognized in the site RF safety plan. Workers on such sites should also be trained in AM RF safety.

An AM detuning system is passive; current is induced by the nearby AM RF signal. The length of the foldwires and the components inside the network tuning cabinet are designed to detune the tower against the AM frequency, making the tower appear as electrically invisible as possible at the AM’s frequency. This is what prevents the tower from reradiating the AM signal."

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Radiation Pattern

03/26/2019 12:47 PM

Who is <...liable...> is not in the domain not of Engineering.

The domain is that of the legal profession, which makes money out of others' misery.

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#12

Re: Radiation Pattern

04/20/2019 3:55 PM

You have not given information - which you must have - the wavelength of the AM.

1.5 MHz/200m giving 1/4 wave as 50m is likely, but wavelength 500m seems an exceptional mast.

You are assuming the Cell tower is one length of metal w/o an upper section of fibreglass or parallel resonant "trap" coils which split it into two parts at AM transmitter frequency; which take it off-resonance.

It may really be that the AM station is paid for by fickle advertisers while the cell phone gets a fee from every call or a guaranteed monthly fee - are the antennas on the same site?

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#13

Re: Radiation Pattern

04/20/2019 4:34 PM

AM broadcast stations typically use 5/8 wavelength for 50 ohms impedance. Does this change your perspective?

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