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Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/25/2019 9:44 PM

Should we be trying to remove methane from the atmosphere rather than carbon dioxide?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190520115740.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140327111724.htm

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Guru

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#1

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/25/2019 11:02 PM

I wouldn't worry about either one....

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#2
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Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/25/2019 11:54 PM

I just can't believe that an engineering forum admin. would allow you to post senseless, denial propaganda, when the entire, global community says otherwise.

Fox News??? Really?

You have completely perverted a formerly science friendly engineering forum into a political swamp!

Congratulations. You are singlehandedly destroying a formerly great forum!

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/25/2019 11:58 PM

You are entitled to your opinion, no need to attack me for mine...

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/26/2019 12:11 PM

You have completely perverted a formerly science friendly engineering forum into a political swamp!

Congratulations. You are singlehandedly destroying a formerly great forum!

Not in my opinion.

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/26/2019 1:32 PM

I seem to recall your political rants on this same forum ranging from the environment to political events.

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/26/2019 10:31 PM

You have completely perverted a formerly science friendly engineering forum into a political swamp!

Congratulations. You are singlehandedly destroying a formerly great forum!

Not in my opinion.

Not in mine either!

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#19
In reply to #1

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/27/2019 8:13 PM

Keep up the good work!!!

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#4

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/26/2019 6:31 AM

There is no doubt that the Earth is warming.The problem is deciding if the cause is truly anthropological.The Earth has gone through many freeze-warm cycles in it's history,and some are closely associated with solar sunspot activity,ie:The Maunder Minimum,the year without a summer. There are so many factors that must be considered,but what if we are headed toward another minimum sunspot period? Perhaps this warming will turn out to be a blessing in disguise. At any rate,I am doing my small part to reduce methane:I take Beano...are you doing your part? 8 billion people must have an effect on methane production in the atmosphere. Perhaps I could get a grant to study that;I know it's a dirty job,but somebody has to do it.Or perhaps I could get carbon credits for fart prevention.

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/26/2019 10:42 PM

Give the supposed impact of bovine flatulence on Global Warming, perhaps purchasing stock in Beano production is warranted; especially if requirements on beef raising are put into effect.

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: Counter-intuitive climate change solution Profitable approach to cleaning the air

05/27/2019 6:58 AM

Here is a link to Cow methane mitigation:https://news.psu.edu/story/364787/2015/08/04/research/feed-supplement-greatly-reduces-dairy-cow-methane-emissions==========================================================

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#5

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/26/2019 10:17 AM

Let's keep the discussion on the science and engineering aspect of things, please. Thanks guys.

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#8

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/26/2019 9:50 PM

Should we....instead? no. Removing methane isn't an alternative to addressing CO2 emissions. It is a supplementary approach at best.

Secondly the profitable part is really questionable. "Carbon offsets" - someone pays you to run your methane contraption, so that they are allowed to continue burning fossil fuel and emitting CO2 without any reduction. If the machine doesn't work, it doesn't matter, they're off the hook. This type of approach is starting to be assessed and it has been found wanting. I wonder where they would have to put the machine to capture methane. Obviously, where the emissions are.. what will they do, low level flights over the permafrost? Buzz a cow or two? Out of sight and out of mind, it smells like a scam to me.

When you think about some of the tech that has crossed these pages recently, that not only captured CO2 but also turned it into a valuable product - carbon nanotubes or nanofibers for example, well that is IMO so much more viable as an enterprise, cw converting one emission into another.

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#11

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 3:55 AM

If I had the choice then Methane.

Reason being?

It still has an energetic value and you can burn it.

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#13

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 10:58 AM

I have read the cited news releases. At best they briefly state or summarize contents from the journal papers they refer to, but do not provide any important details of research protocols, assumptions, methodology, etc. I, personally, prefer to see the originals and then carefully read them for any holes in their work.

  1. The first news release included a statement: "A zeolite array about the size of a football field could generate millions of dollars a year in income while removing harmful methane from the air." This statement lacks so much backing that it is easily read as pseudoscientific hyperbole.
  2. The two articles have significantly different numbers for the comparative impact of methane vs. carbon dioxide as greenhouse gasses--take your pick, is it 84x or 30x? Again, a reading of the original sources MIGHT provide a better clarification of this difference. Any statements as to the statistical analysis of the basis for these numbers would be instructive.
  3. I could not locate the first cited news release's claimed source at Stanford University's Woods Institute for the Environment, but did find the topic at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0299-x (the cost to access the article, though small, was not one I wished to pay).
  4. The second cited news release's claimed source comes from https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13164#f5 -- however this article explores a different topic of how methane emissions from aquatic sources increase much more than CO2 as temperatures rise (a valid subject, but off-topic to the title of the original post).

I am in favor of reducing all forms of greenhouse gas emissions from human activities. Regarding methane, requiring the reporting of fugitive emissions from petroleum production activities would be nice--I don't think it is allowed at the present. What is the best estimate of the percent of methane contribution to the atmosphere (compared to all other sources) from the huge leak from the underground storage field near Los Angeles in the last few years?

The cited Science Daily releases are inadequate and insufficient. The science research behind them may be adequate. Only one of them is on-topic. --JMM

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#14
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Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 11:29 AM

I might add there is no comparison of longevity in the atmosphere....Methane is very short lived compared to CO2 ...so a lifetime contribution by both is needed for any valid comparison....

..."How long does Methane last in the atmosphere?

about 12 years This means that once in the atmosphere, carbon dioxide can continue to affect climate for thousands of years. Methane, by contrast, is mostly removed from the atmosphere by chemical reaction, persisting for about 12 years. Thus although methane is a potent greenhouse gas, its effect is relatively short-lived."... Jan 16, 2012 ...

"As methane rises into the air, it reacts with the hydroxyl radical to create water vapor and carbon dioxide. The lifespan of methane in the atmosphere was estimated at 9.6 years as of 2001; however, increasing emissions of methane over time reduce the concentration of the hydroxyl radical in the atmosphere."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane

  1. Hydroxyl radical – OH in the atmosphere is the largest sink for atmospheric methane as well as one of the most significant sources of water vapor in the upper atmosphere.
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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 12:06 PM

That's a very good point. Converting an emission with effects lasting 12 years into an emission with effects lasting thousands of years... What were they thinking?

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#20
In reply to #14

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/28/2019 5:21 AM

Just a reminder the most potent greenhouse gas is water vapour.

Should we reduce evaporation or interfere with the water cycle in the atmpsophere?

As a second comment: longevity of the gas in the atmosphere is of no conseqence to the ability to absorb and emit in the electromagnetic spectrums. The only concern there is the concentration.

If a longevity affects the concentration by means of impacting on the processes that washout or destroy the specific greenhouse gas, it might be a point, but so far this discussion about how long a Methane or CO2 or Water vapour for that matter remains in the atmophere is a non issue.

In case of water vapour it is also the abilty to condensate and form clouds which makes our atmopsheric system so nice and complex.

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#16

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 12:58 PM

Water vapor is far and away the worst offender, it is easy to remove and the by product is useful. Cover the Sahara desert with solar/wind generators, use high powered lasers to route the resulting electrical energy to the sub Sahara. Where it can be reconverted to electricity to run large dehumidifiers. Phase two involves harvesting all plastic soda straws and grocery bags into large sheets. These will be used to cover the worlds oceans to prevent further evaporation. These two projects should tie up all of the resources of the green movement. Truly a win-win for Gaia

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#17
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Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 2:12 PM

And truly a set of suggestions that are tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.

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#18
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Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/27/2019 8:09 PM

Ya think.. Thanx

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/28/2019 5:29 AM

You can also sign here:

http://chng.it/PVhHmxhQkL

which is a

Petition for Zali Steggall to build wind farms for Warringah

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#22

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/28/2019 7:25 AM

<...we...>?

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#23

Re: Counter-Intuitive Climate Change Solution Profitable Approach to Cleaning the Air

05/28/2019 10:58 AM

If you've got a business model that works, then go for it, Dude.

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