Changing Concentration of Pine Oil

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-manufacture-2000litre-hour-white-phenyl

Then add water to dilute mixture to user spec....

i appreciate your effort dear, but emulsifiers are not available in my area. i just want to reduce the concentration level of pine oil from 66% to 22% because the formula im using needs 22% of concentration in pine oil.

i wanted to know if i can use Isopropyl alcohol or turpentine oil may be to reduce its strength...

guide me pls

I guess that depends on what product you are making....? I know Tall oil is used as an additive in some cases...but it depends on what properties you are trying enhance or mitigate...So the end use of this product will determine the suitable additives...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpineol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_oil

Maybe you could go with Limonene instead....

I use turpentine all the time when I read this I first thought that you wanted stronger concentration. To me Pine oil is pine spirits AKA Turpentine. The only other product that comes from Pine tree is DMSO AN EXCELLENT solvent also and both can be ingested in small quantities such as TSP.

Is DMSO still produced from pine trees commercially somewhere?

If you are not going to use an emulsifier, then you are not making White Phenyl. You may be attempting to make a waterless White Phenyl substitute but it won't be White Phenyl. I also find it implausible that emulsifiers are not available in your area.

Dilute it with water.

Pine oil doesn't get diluted with water.

I intend to dilute it with other oil, not by using an emuslifier , so it doesn't harm my formula.

I used to make lubricating oil lighter by mixing the oil with kerosene.. just not sure about the concentration as it was not my objective..

What is the composition of the other 34%?

Read my first post carefully pls, 66% is not percentage of the formula, but the strength/concentration of pine oil.

Let me explain it in a simpler way. When i intend to convert my 50% sles to 25% sles. I use this formula.

M1V1 = M2V2.

I used adequate water and a low amount of sles, to make it 25% concentration.

I hope i explained it better this time

...."We are identified as one of a reputed manufacturer and supplier Pine Oil 22%. It is used as disinfectant as it contains phenols, which are acidic chemicals that have germ-killing properties. Our range is effective against yeast spores, E.coli and household germs. Pine oil is used in various industries like paints, protective coatings, cleaning product, adhesives and lubricants."...

https://www.manishmineralsandchemicals.com/pine-oil.html

Sodium Lauryl Ether Sulfate Chemical

https://www.manishmineralsandchemicals.com/cleaner-raw-materials.html

Please, read our replies more carefully.

Let me explain in a more exact way the definition of an emulsifier:

Definition of emulsifier

:one that emulsifies

especially :a surface-active agent (such as a soap) promoting the formation and stabilization of an emulsion

It is also a good idea to avoid undefined acronyms and jargon. As Solar Eagle identified, sles presumably is sodium laureth sulfate, a component of soap. Your emulsifier.

From the beginning, your question has been what to add to dilute an existing liquid-liquid solution where only one of the liquids is defined. Identifying the other liquid in your acquired pine-oil reagent is the key to what can be added. It also could easily be the key to why your formula does not produce the desired product regardless of the mixing ratios used. The most accurate explanation why this is important can be found at the Research Gate forum. Pay close attention to the reply of Karyemaitre Aliffe of Stanford Medicine.

It seems to me that you do not understand the meanings of the technical words in this thread. I hope you are actually a program failing the Turing test. I believe you are a "shade tree" chemist trying to save money by mixing your own cleaning agents. I dread to think you are the proffered manufacturer's chemist.

You could always use ethanol to reduce the concentration from 66% to 22%.

Thank you, how about Isopropyl Alcohol?

Your formula specifies a 22% concentration to make the final product. Then why are you purchasing 66% concentration? Also I would expect the 66% concentration to be 3 times the price of the 22% concentration. In either concentration it would be useful to know what the other 34% or 78% of the liquid contains.

It disturbs the ratio, i have checked it already, it was a total failure

Dear i definitely would have purchased 22% if it was available. The only strength available in market is 66%..

Repetition is unnecessary in this forum.

Maybe you could use triple the amount of emulsifier to maintain the proportions. Not sure if the terpene hydrocarbons, ethers, and esters refined from the pine oil going from 22% to 66% are necessary to maintain the disinfecting properties of white phenyl.

Pine oil can maintain its effectiveness in 22%, but increasing the emulsifier distorts the proportion.

So you are thinking the active ingredients for your application include the terpenes & gums distilled/refined from the pine oil to start with?

Common practice lists further dilution before conventional use, that dilution is listed as water. You could adjust the emulsifier addition to take into account the additional water required, to maintain the pure pine oil to water ratio.

I would add what the other ingredient is that they mixed with the pine oil to get to the 66% concentration. I would expect it to be listed on the container label. Then I would proceed using the following calculation: X is how much of the ingredient needs to be added to get 22% pine oil:

In one gal of 66% pine oil you have 0.66 gal of pure pine oil and 0.34 gal of the cutting agent used. .66/(X+.34)=.22 solving for X: (.66-.22*.34)/.22=X 2.66=X. So to get to 22% pine oil you need to add to 1 gallon of 66% pine oil 2.66 gal of whatever they mixed with the pine oil to get 66%.

Hope this is helpful.

One old senior to another.... :)

What is meant here I believe, is pine oil in the general sense that it is the product of a manufacturing process, this process does not yield pure pine oil which would require further refining...

..."Chemically, pine oil consists mainly of α-terpineol^[6] and other cyclic terpene alcohols.^[1] It may also contain terpene hydrocarbons, ethers, and esters. The exact composition depends on various factors, such as the variety of pine from which it is produced and the parts of the tree used."...

..."Pine oil is an essential oil obtained by the steam distillation of stumps,^[2] needles, twigs and cones^[3] from a variety of species of pine, particularly Pinus sylvestris. "...

As an aside,

..."Although the original Pine-Sol formulation was pine oil-based, today the cleaners sold under the Pine-Sol brand contain no pine oil.^[13]

In 2006, The Clorox Company's product line included "Clorox Commercial Pine-Sol Brand Cleaner", with the same ingredients and concentrations as "Original Pine-Sol Brand Cleaner 1."^[17]

In 2008, the material safety data sheet for the "Original Pine-Sol Brand Cleaner 1" formulation listed 8–12% pine oil, 3-7% alkyl alcohol ethoxylates, 1-5% sodium petroleum sulfonate and 1-5% isopropyl alcohol.^[12]

Since January 2013, Clorox made a product called Original Pine-Sol Multi-Surface Cleaner which included glycolic acid while lacking any pine oil.^[18]

In January 2014, Clorox announced that Pine-Sol products would no longer contain pine oil, due to pine oil's limited supply and increased cost.^[19] In response to consumer requests for the original formula, Clorox made available a product containing 8.75% Pine oil to online purchasers, but said it would not be sold in stores.^[4]

In 2018, Pine-Sol can be found on store shelves with an ingredient label stating "Contains Pine Oil" but this is not listed as an active ingredient. Pine oil in modern Pine-Sol seems to be added for fragrance only, as the product still uses glycolic acid as the sole active ingredient.

According to 1950s Milner executive Howard S. Cohoon, producer of Pine-sol, pine oil is only formed in large stumps from cut-over timber that remained in the ground for "at least 20 years." It is not found in live pine trees. When asked about the risk of running out, Cohoon estimated in 1954 that there was "enough to last for another 35 years." He was not worried about a shortage as he claimed pine oil could be produced synthetically.^[3] "...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine-Sol

..."As of 1995, synthetic pine oil was the "biggest single turpentine derivative."^[4] Synthetic pine oils accounted for 90% of sales as of 2000.^[5] "....

So you can produce your own pine oil synthetically, in any strength you want...

Terpene Diluent would be the best way to go...for purity

...though probably not for cost...

ref link..

Thanks for the information. I thought the issue seemed pretty straight forward and had not realized how pine oil was made.

Take care,

Rich

Some idea of flow rates and what the other 34% is would save the forum from a lot of guessing games; these don’t usually go down very well.

You can't.

If you're using these commodities you should understand that the 22% or 66% express values for specific compounds found in the pine oils. The remaining portion is not just a diluent but a mixture of other compounds normally found in these blends.

So, if you dilute it with something else you will not have the same thing as if you were to purchase the 22% material upfront. Having said that, depending on your final needs this may still prove effective. Noting that, when I used to make micro emulsions with pine oil isopropyl alcohol was very useful for cutting it before emulsification.

<...anyone...>

A qualified local Process Engineer can.

Alright, I have read all the comments, first of all I would like to thank you guys for your interest and for being helpful, Secondly, I think it is better to explain my formula and intentions in a clear way (Which i intentionally concealed in order to keep my question from being a time waster). I'm from Pakistan (This is essential information, and may be kept in mind before suggesting something)

I want to make white phenyl, the formula I'm using

1. Pine oil (66% concentration) 70%

2. TRO (Turkey Red Oil) 15%

3. XL 80 ( since Alfox 200 and OP 95 are not available in my area) 15%

Process..

Mixing xl80 and TRO .. after mixing adding Pine oil

Compound is done, Now i just have to add the water in 1/20 ratio to make a white phenyl.

Problems:

1. The cost of the outcome is way higher than the retail price of the product.

2. Original source which i used to formulate this, used 22% concentration of pine oil. The formula is indian based. India is a vast market and almost every chemical is available there. so they use 22% concentration of pine oil to cut the cost. While in Pakistan, only 66% concentration of Pine oil is available. by using 66% concentration, i get very strong white phenyl, but the problem of cost is still there as compound/water ratio can't be increase more than 1/25 . I can't cut the cost. So i decided to lower the concentration of Pine oil from 66 to 22 by mixing a filler to compensate for the quantity. But unfortunately, nothing seem to work out, I tried kerosene and IPA. Both the things diluted the Pine oil effeciently but they damaged the compound and it did not work in this particular formula.

Now, you guys know every bit of problem I'm facing. I'm looking forward towards you hopefully,

Regards

So what you really have is two problems, not one:

1. How to make your white phenyl cleaning product with a different reagent concentration?
• This is probably the easiest problem to solve. Just use 1/3 of the previous volume or mass of pine oil previously used.
• Test the new formulation for effectiveness.
2. How to make a profit in making this "new and improved" cleaning product formulation?
• Identify the cost to fabricate and distribute this new formula. Add to this cost the desired (minimum?) profit required to keep your operation afloat.
• Identify your customer's willingness to pay this price.

There is a reason other cleaning product manufacturers in other countries no longer use actual pine oil to make their cleaners, it is now too expensive. Did you really think this free forum could alter reality?

How many old pine tree stumps are there in Pakistan?

Thank you for replying in detail addressing all of the issues: :)

I would reply point to point:

1. I have already tried 1/3 quantity of pine oil, that makes the equation like this.

a: Pine oil 33%

b: TRO 33%

c: XL80 33%

I mixed B and C and made a paste and added A into the paste, when diluted with water as 1/30 it left a semi clear liquid. (which was supposed to be a milky white liquid).

2. i have identified the cost , customer willingness and power to pay for it, and i also checked the prices offered by the competitors. i need it to be prepared it within 100 PKR while in my original formula it is costing me around 266. that's why i want to make it workable.

secondly, people are drawn towards White phenyl more than any other cleaner, its like a norm in our area. so can anyone tell me any other way to make white phenyl which doesn't include pine oil ? it would be real good help.

Thanking for your reply again, I would appreciate if you please help and guide me.

Respect and Regards

You need to just hire a local chemist to formulate your product...this can give you a proprietary formula that is your own....

https://www.chemicalsocietyofpakistan.com/

What do you get if only using pine oil, without the other substitutes for the refined away fractions?

By using Pine oil with TRO and Xl 80, i i g what i desire. A milky white whit phenyl, it's just not cost effective.

This helps a lot.

I can't help with the costing, not being familiar with Pakistan area pricing, but:

1. The issue with your 1:1:1 formulation is that it is too highly emulsified. If you are creating a semi-transparent end product that is stable, this is a partial micro emulsion. TRO is sulfated castor oil, I know there are different grades available but it is basically a self dispersing oil. XL 80 is a C10, 8 EO linear alcohol- a very good wetter and decent emulsifier, especially combined with a long chain product like the TRO. Unless your TRO is a very poor grade I doubt you have problems there. You need to increase the amount of emulsificant (pine oil or other) relative to the emulsifier, possibly increase the overall percentage of TRO relative to the other two as I would imagine it is the cheapest.
2. If you want to include other diluents, they have to be relatively non-polar. Isopropyl alcohol is NOT a good choice, if you already have too fine of an emulsion. I don't know why you said kerosene didn't work, unless you went with too high of a percentage. It should be quite compatible with your choice of emulsifiers. I would suggest dipentene if you can get it, as cutting the 66% material with it will give a product that is quite similar to the 22%.

http://www.paktradeinfo.com/international-trade/Pakistan/Import/1/dipentene

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/dipentene-supplier.html

Hi I have read most of the comments and I believe that without the help of emulsifier someone not going to change the concentration of pine oil ....

And another thing I want to ask here that is xl80 is an emulsifier here??

Simple. To every 1kg of <...66% concentration...> add 2kg of the diluent. The diluent is whatever the 34% is in the <...66%...pine oil...>.

It's only calculation.