Can the Chinese Build a Hospital in 10 Days?

I don't know why they would rush construction for a temporary problem....why not just use modular portable hospital field units....

'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25348385

They did it before with the SARS virus....

..."The hospital aims to copy the experience of Beijing in 2003, when the city battled Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS). As many as 774 people died in the SARS epidemic, which reached nearly 30 countries.

At the time, Beijing built the Xiaotangshan hospital in its northern suburbs in just a week. Within two months, it treated one-seventh of all the country's SARS patients, the Changjiang Daily said."...

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/23/world/asia/23reuters-china-health-hospital.html

From what I see here in the local rags that's what they are up to

It does make more sense

One plausible reason to not use a portable hospital is a now forced recognition that this region does not have enough medical support for the population.

I wonder if they found the construction defects in the air conditioning of the source ?

which is apparently a “Biosafety” research facility in Wuhan

The source is apparently from bats, which is sold as food in China....

Much the same as the SAR's virus....

https://pluralist.com/coronavirus-traced-to-bats-china-bans-sale-of-wildlife/

Of course the Chinese can build a hospital in just 10 days. This is one of the advantages of despotic rule. When the despot directs all resources to bear it gets done. Now what gets completed in 10 days will probably not meet all of the AHA organizer standards but I'm certain a Chinese regulator will approve this. I'm equally certain whatever gets built will be far better than not building a new hospital.

Yeah, sort of like wartime, throw process away and just "get er dun".

One question: Could we in the good ole USA even get the required Environmental Impact permits passed and signed in 10 days? I doubt it!

Yes Redfred #3. Phone call between leaders.

Boris Johnson: "Hello Xi Jinping. How are you getting on building your emergency hospital ?"

Xi Jinping: "Slow going, but 10 days should see it though. How about you Boris? - would 10 days be enough?".

"....yes! - if the printers are quick with the 'Invitation to Tender' form - assuming we get planning permission."

With the amount and density of escavators,... what is the goal and where does the dirt go.

drians?

I waS trying to figure out, what they are trying to accomplish...

Especially if you say this is true, That they have to improvise,... the Program Manager as well as an army of Project Managers have their work cut out for them.

I thought the same. There are a lot of excavators scratching around in that picture.

Big is not always better. On a site that small big scrapers would be as good as useless.

Gitt'er done. It looks like a lot of un-synchronized activity. Not to confuse activity with progress. But, I'm not a civil engineer, so my opinions are formed as a casual observer.

With the small variations in level on the site( less than 2 metres ) they could have been faster with just 7 excavators and 6 graders followed up by 8 padfoot rollers then 8 smoothdrum rollers to finish

40 plus excavators on the small area passing the parcels is just sad humour.

did they get a nice level slab or will hospital beds be rolling across the floor when the brakes are off

NO Phoenix 911,

they dig a hole and bury it.

I zoomed in and took a look over coffee.

There's really no reason to have so many excavators on site.

One very real possibility is that the chosen site was also the place that the excavators were stored / located when they weren't on the job elsewhere?

If you look across the street there is another lot full of excavators as well as more in the upper right hand corner.

The swampy area in the back might have needed a small hill or two scraped off, but I think they are filling in with material being dumped in by the trucks shown. I also think they would have been better of finding a location with just a few of these.

Yes now that we got that settled,... let’s get going and build this hospital.

Possibly, excavators are what they had immediately on-hand, and few, if any scrapers,

(like those typically used in land-leveling and road grading) were simply not available...

Very few bull dozers were visible, either. It does appear rather curious, so far...

So, maybe they were just working with what they did have immediately available...

If anyone can, they can.

I don't know if they can but the post photo would have been good for "Caption This"!

For a 10 day build, I’m sure there’s going to be a time lapse video of the build... or I for one would be disappointed.

the program manager should have his/her hands full.

Bingo...bottom right

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huoshenshan_Hospital

There are problems within China and its construction standards as in corruption. Which is unbelievable considering that especially corruption on high profile projects the penalty can be death.

Some of the problems may be :

Obtain skilled construction workers from area of China who have not been exposed to virus.

Build isolated city where workers can reside while building hospital.

Workers required to wear isolation suits while engaged in construction project.

It should be possible . By using cement that was not mixed with Gypsum, it would set very fast . I understand that Gypsum is added as a retardant for slower setting of concrete without significant reduction in strength , and prefab housing has reached a good standard of development too .

Combined with necessity and will , it will be done .

Or add a chloride to speed up the curing, unfortunately this affects the strength of concrete by lowering it, as I understand it.

Also from my link earlier post, China really doesn’t have a material specification booklet for building construction on their projects.

here in ohio, I know the guys use Calcium Chloride to speed up the cure time of concrete in cold weather. they do this to cure before the water freezes. If a freeze occurs then the pad needs to be ripped out. but there are a couple of factors that determine the amount of CaCl addition. Temperature of course increases pretty much all chemical reactions. Another is the size of the pour, Time is needed to pour, level and float the pad. A large pad may start to set before the finisher can float the pad (allow the "cream" to come to the top of the pad). distance from the concrete facility and if there is a back up at the site, concrete can and does set inside the truck. The guys then have to get into the mixer with jack hammers and remove the mess. Sometimes the CaCl can be added and mixed at the pour site. And another issue is the strength of the concrete. If I recall, usually 4500psi is the goal for strength (average pour) but I do believe they can go a few thousand psi less than that but a respectable company usually won't compromise strength because they may ultimately may have to rip out the pour and re-do it (and eat the cost) sometime in the future.

All this is for in the USA (at least for Ohio), maybe there are other advances that are practiced in China (or even the USA) that may be cost inhibitive for the average Joe concrete company that are utilized in emergency type situations.

The hell with OPC concrete just go to Geopolymer which can set in 30 minutes , added bonus is it produces 90 % less CO2 than Portland cement , 20 , 30 or 50 MPa.

for those who didn’t know , manufacturing cement is the worlds second highest producer of CO2 , 1 tonne of cement produces 1 tonne of CO2

I dont think china will be too worried about CO2 right now.

Sure they can.They copy what they have already done in the SARS epidemic.

They might even reuse some of the equipment from there.

They are also good at tearing things down in a hurry.

They are very good in mustering their forces to the task at hand.

No budget constraints,no permits,no impact statements,just orders from headquarters.

"Larry the cable guy" must be in charge"Gitt'er Done!"

https://gfycat.com/thirstyuntimelyhuemul-jiangxi-cctv-news

Note that both sides have the same number of excavators.

Since travel in and out of Wuhan is highly restricted, they need to do with what they have. If goods are shipped in, I doubt the transportation personnel would be allowed to leave. A mobile hospital is good for war-time or natural emergencies, but they are trying to contain a virus. Any gaps in the construction is a possible area of transmission. Plus, there may not be any mobile units large enough already inside the city.

I doubt the issue is with the number of hospitals. It's probably the cross-contamination that could easily happen in an established hospital, both from those coming in and those already there with other types of viruses. They would have two groups with weakened immune systems in the same location.

Also, they never said it was going to be a permanent structure. I would guess that chances are good when this is over, the building will be sterilized and destroyed.

Just sounds like a terrible idea, surely they need longer than that to ensure its completely safe and built to the right standards?

Here’s some time lapse video after 4 days into construction...

on a tangent, with the aggressive schedule, I’m curious about their safety incidences.

Having their military mobilized to set-up a mega-MASH-type unit would certainly be a timely response, for the very-short term...

... and designating (one portion of) a currently un-occuppied city to take over the longer-term operation, with relocation of the patients being conducted by dedicating one of their (super-trains) to be reconfigured to exclusively transport the patients, in medical-type isolation conditions, to supplement their tent-city facilities.

Looks like the Coronavirus has arrived in the States...

Before reading any caption, it looks like a social mixer for excavators, where only the male machines actually showed up...

With unlimited monies, materials and real teamwork as well as leadership just about anything can be done... I'm thinking prefabbed panels with modular plumbing, HVAC and electrical systems and remember this would not be the first try, there are many hospitals in existence... what's another "copy"? Also remember MASH. Maybe not to preferred standards but I say yes.

I've been a superintendent on some very fast track projects that were Not copies and the very unrealistic schedules have been met. With all of China's resources, man power and the urgency caused by an epidemic what choice do they have?

There is a question on the quality of Chinese building material (inferior) and no real minimum specifications as in the west.

They do have standards that are very similar to the Eurocodes...but like everywhere contractors work to their own financial benefit...I'm to polite to say that's cheating.
Some of their civil and structural specs that I have read and the engineers that I've met are pretty strict on it are very similar to the Malaysian (which are photocopies of the British Standards and Codes of Practice) and close to the Australian ones that we/I use here in Malaysia alongside the Eurocodes.
Remember that if a building screws up and kills someone the engineer and the contractor get taken out the back and shot.
Keep in mind that an emergency hospital, call it a MASH if you will, meets virtually none of the engineering standards of a fully constructed and functional specialist hospital...they have a different set of rules for a different game.

IHMO:

Similar to the the unwritten rules at Vegas.

Cheaters are taken out back,beaten to death,dragged around front and reported as a hit and run.

No repeat offenders.

At the rate the virus is spreading,they will never catch up to the need,neither will the world.

It seems to be spreading at a binary pattern,doubling every 2 days.

It will not take long to cover the whole planet.

See the subject on BBC for a map of the spread in China.

ALL provinces have now been infected.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51305526

This reminds me of a math problem.

If you have a penny at the beginning of the year and decide to double your money every day for a month? How much money will you have come February?

2'147'483'641 pennies.

I remember this question from when I was only 5 years old.

My great uncle;born 1876,was way ahead of his time.

He was teaching me binary and I didn't even know it at the time.

No wonder they only have 10 days to build..

Remember the good old days of hoof and mouth? Swine flu? Bird flu?

Ack!

Relatively fortunately, the death rate is significatly lower than the contagion rate, so far...

Viruses almost always mutate to some less transmissible or dangerous form before spreading worldwide...The attempts to delay the spread are in part allowing for more time for that to happen...of course it can go either way....

https://www.statnews.com/2020/01/24/dna-sleuths-read-coronavirus-genome-tracing-origins-and-mutations/

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/index.php/content/articles/viruses-and-evolution

I cant see how they claim a death rate of 2 % when there is a 3 - 4 week delay between infection and death.
If 250 people died from it over the past week , they were infected around 3 - 4 weeks ago when the infected count was 2500 people.

Thats a 10 % death rate.

Or another take from todays numbers , 34,887 infected.

723 have died while 2063 have recovered.

723 / 2063 = 35 % death rate.

This show was brought to you by the department of Rubbery numbers

As of this current date, it's unfortunate that we still can't watch a truly full video with english subtitles...(?)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2020/jan/31/timelapse-footage-captures-wuhan-hospital-construction-video?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlBVVMtMjAwMjAx&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTAU_email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayAUS

here ya go

That appears to show their progress through day 8-ish, but (much grass) anyway...

Should we commend them for their (environmentally responsible?) decision to ''deem'' that their EIR would not require a single paper-pulp-appropropriate tree to produce a single printed page ?

Its only 30 years since construction management policy in china was a 7.62 calibre pistol.

He who dragged the chain was shot on the spot.

the complaints department wasnt busy.

Is it not time this discussion is closed since the question was a simple ‘Can China build a hospital ...) and China has done it and showed the world that it did ?

Three more days to go, and then maybe we'll know without speculation.

I’m looking at this with pretty great interest.

having manage building new facility’s from the ground up. But the time frame is unbelievable in a project management standpoint.

digressing, when I worked at a shipyard, when building a ship, it was pretty competitive between shops. Pipe shop, HVAC, electrical, etc... to be the first in and lay the piping, conduit or ductwork because he who is last will have to go around what’s already been laid.

nut to have this building,... hell, I have to wait months for permits... (of course this is China and the situation is different), but un top of that, I had to wait 15 weeks for a 1600 amp electrical entrance.

thats the unbelievable part of this build is the infrastructure of the building getting that into place.

Shows what can be done when you cut the bullshit.
Our Corp of engineers can put up an emergency hospital in days, my time spent on exchange with the yanks and the poms I know they can as well.

Point is IT IS NOT A SPECIALIST HOSPITAL....EMERGENCY

They did it despite all our wasteful debate !

No such thing as wasteful, unless you have no input of value,... then yes, your post is wasteful.

Anonymous, we (Yanks?) did not build any of the Great Wall of China, nor did we build any of the Taj Mahal, nor did we build any of the the Hindu temple complex of Angkor Wat, nor innumerable other remarkable construction examples in the ''East''...

So, just what specific ''something'' are you trying to talk about?

Fine, care to, elaborate?

The debate or question I have is building the building,... I’m talking about the infrastructure.

a thousand bed hospital. That’s a hard facility, not a tent or a mash unit.

is there a sufficient municipal potable water supply or is it trucked in, and I don’t mean turning on a faucet and having a weak stream. or does that improvement come later.

and the sanitation, can the sewers handle the influx? Also does that come later and truck it out until sanitation can happen.

proper ventilation as well as isolation?

what is the hierarchy of managing this project, right down to the contractors and suppliers, or is this a military operations.

My point is, it’ll be great if this is shared, how the problems were overcome and not,... “well, we do this all the time”,

I like to add, the government I’m sure have a disaster plan in place for this sort of thing.

Our government has for certain natural and man-made disasters, as well as certain businesses, (it’s becoming common for business would have it for floods, utilities, or internal incidences such as explosions. Anything that would disrupt production).

So initially the Chinese didn’t start from scratch. But referred to their own diseased plan.

Not knowing the actual gradient or what the storm drain connects to/from 1000-1200 mm is not that large. But that’s only speculation.

And to implement this type of work and schedule, there has to be a well thought out disaster plan in place as well as materials already purchased and stored for this type of emergency. Is at the very least, impressive.

there are ‘whispers’ coming out to the origins of this coronavirus that’s unsettling, but with the news media, its prudent to wait until more information comes out.

I don't think the Chinese would be in a hurry to bury a dedicated drain line for surface drainage when the surface contours can be readily made to do that without the time and effort to excavate a trench, even if they have a (herd?) of excavators on-hand, but such a thing is theoretically possible, if not expedient.

The corrugated pipes will typically be placed in trenches in what looks like a curvilinear manner. However, in order to be ready for backfill, said pipes will be laid-final, with a straightened centerline, and to the prescribed grade, before said backfill, and not at initial placement.

In order for a drain line to be in the same trench as a supply line, the grades would be opposite in sign, requiring the supply line to be under pressure, and not relying solely on gravity, like a drain line.

Also, corrugated piping does not make a good fluid supply line, so both pipes were probably both drain lines, with one (venting?) from only one side, and the other (venting?) from the other side. (I say venting because they could possibly be for conducting fluids and/or gases, but without seeing the actual Plans, I can only guess.)

Unfortunately, for expediency, the drain pipes shown may well discharge into a nearby water course... (hopefully, with a (water/chemical?) treatment plant to follow shortly?...)

.... of excavators on-hand, but such a thing is theoretically possible, if not expedient....

well on a project management, you can look at the project being managed like this.

1. Cost ?
2. Schedule (selected)
3. Quality ?

and you pick 2, we already know the schedule was pick, now which other one is going to get picked without compromising the schedule?

as far as venting, where I worked, we had storm drains that ran under our plant, where I and a spotter had to check them, the storm drain was 6’ diameter, and I was rigged with a safety line and also had a sniffer as well as a 2-way radio to the spotter in case I got into trouble he’d have to extract me.

EH? Consider the Hoover dam.

Finished ahead of schedule,under budget,and as for the quality..it speaks for itself.

IMHO:

Projects today are a reflection of the decline in work ethic of most American workers.Coffee break every 2 hours,1 hour lunch break,another break,then back to work for 2 more hours,then go home.

Project deadlines are written in the sand,and constantly moved ahead as the project continues.

It is rare to see a project finish under budget,ahead of schedule and high quality.

The hardest workers now are immigrants that are unspoiled by maternalistic management styles and are accustomed to a strong work ethic.

Some come here with nothing,work hard at low paying jobs,learn a skill and in 10 years or so are self employed.

I am retired now,but I remember the days of hard work and commitment to quality work.

Sad to see it slipping away.

Hoover damm,... I’d may have used the Golden Gate Bridge as an example... they had accidents, but they did put in a lot of safety guidelines also.

Hoover dam, they had people dying to work on that project...

but the quality and forethought was none better,... in particularly the cooling and curing of the cement,... which is still going on.

Don't be so harsh.. Our workforce was taught to work smarter not harder.

They get a lot of stuff done with the hours they aren't doing anything.

Actually, upon further reflection, I think the corrugated conduits are for fresh air supply, and contaminated air removal.

...and I speculate that the two conduits down the main central trench are both sewer conduits with relatively closely-spaced manholes, with lateral connections to commence shortly.

possinle, but at this point it’s speculative,...

from the videos they were not too worried about accuracy of grade in the sewer and stormwater.

Clever thing they did was pour the concrete slabs and then put 500 mm UB steel beams on the concrete to support all the 20 foot container modules , that gives them fast easy access to run all the services . sewer . electrical , fresh water and medical gases underneath.

It comes down to what I said earlier... pick two...

1. cost
2. quality
3. schedule

I like to modify that....it appears to the Chinese are hit schedule pretty heavily, they are skimming of off cost as well as quality...

IMHO:

Despite the news coming from China,and our the world wide press,there must be a bigger threat than is being presented to the general population.

I speculate that it is indeed,a very deadly and tenacious virus.

It has a very effective means of spreading by being symptom-less but transmittable for weeks before symptoms begin to show.

The Chinese would not build a 1000 bed hospital unless they had a pressing need for it.

There may be more to follow.

In the USA,and elsewhere, they may quickly convert cargo containers to treatment rooms.

Actions speak louder than words,and I am watching the events in China.

Viruses and bacteria share DNA snippets all the time. From the reports I'm hearing, this strain is very contagious but not very lethal despite its virulence. While it is unlikely if the contagious part of this coronavirus bonds to the lethal part of the SARS coronavirus or (heaven forbid) the Ebola virus then we might have a problem.

"All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance." Will Rogers

It has mutated once already.

spanish flu mutated three times , but this virus is being described as a cross between HIV and SARS.

Anyone saying its not serious because it has only a “2.5 - 4 %“ lethality didn’t consider that among those who survive , many have permanent lung and kidney damage , and the virus may remain dormant in their body “until conditions stimulate its revival” which could happen at random or could happen next flu season. Will the virus also be transmissible from that host while in its dormant state?

For anyone who reads that paragraph above , it is the most bone chilling aspect of the whole story.

I don’t believe no one said it’s not serious,... it’s more like not over react with what ifs....

Who says this is a cross between two specific diseases?

Please don't add unsubstantiated fear mongering.

Any reports you hear about lethality percentages are probably wrong because this disease is too new. It is very plausible but unproven for the reported 4% lethality rate to be skewed because of sampling being only from the sickest individuals. It is equally plausible but unproven that containment attempts are failing because some exposed become asymptomatic carriers. It is far too soon for anyone, let alone medical laymen on an engineering forum, to answer these critical questions.

I don’t believe this coronavirus is new, Novel coronavirus have been known for a while... (maybe a new strain).

but the over-reaction (or disappointment to not over-reacting enough) is ridicules, not really knowing if it makes a difference or not.

Building things as fast as possible is a double-edged solution for any project. The corners cut can easily end up undermining the longevity or usefulness of the project. Similarly trying to get everybody's opinion on how to do something in an attempt to find that hidden Einstein is the foundation of analysis paralysis.

Build quality becomes a factor if the Wuhan Bio-weapons development laboratory has construction defects between ducting for office air conditioning and ducting for the laboratory air filtration.

Just need to look at the history the Chinese have with quality..., I just posted a building that collapsed they were using to quarantine patients in.

As China marched to a modern and industrial society, they don't really have building specifications/requirements, one would think they’d have that for labs.

Obviously a lot pre-constructed but still

https://www.facebook.com/XinhuaNewsAgency/videos/518658902091817/

We were wondering about the sewage system for this rapidly built hospital. This might be a more critical issue now that fecal transmission is possible.