People Are Jailbreaking Used Teslas to Get the Features They Expect

Disappointing to read that. While I understand that manufacturers might like to control repairs to ensure reputation (e.g. job done right, reliable, Runs Like a Deere) or equipment safety (lawyers), or emissions (gubmint) or profit (stockholders), when it is that draconian, there is bound to be backlash.

I have been entertaining the purchase of a compact tractor (toy) for our house out in the country, but that certainly gives me cause for concern when it comes to a Deere. Maybe this isn't an issue for the little ones in their product line, but those orange Kubota's start to look more attractive.

Don't be surprised to see issues with Kubota's either. Have a friend that bought a brand new larger Kubota. He and the dealer fought computer issues for months and months. He was glad he had kept his old tractor, because the new one was useless due to computer and connectivity issues.

Just like the 80s again when car companies started putting "computers" in cars but had no idea what they really did. No one at dealerships were trained, the diagnostic machine was stuck in a corner with plastic on it because no one knew how to use it and even if they did it was barely anything better than an oscilloscope.

A paradigm shift is always hard for established companies to make because of the inherent resistance to actual change built into their systems.

The '80's cars had computer systems that were not engineered very well. Though much of the blame can be tied to the hardware being too slow to respond on a real time basis. One system was the Cadillac 8-6-4 motor. A big V8 drops to 6 cyl when demand isn't there. Then to 4 cyl when even less power is demanded. Great idea, but not in 1981.

Many cars now have systems like this and have for years. GM, Chrysler, Honda (these are big guys) have it on some of their vehicles.

Can you imagine the Cadillac tech, circa 1981:

Customer: My car hesitates, stumble and isn't smooth like my 1978.

Service Writer: Sure, we'll check it for you. Don't worry, we'll fix it. We'll call you when it's ready.

Tech: Boss, I have no idea what to do. Let's call corporate.

Corporate (after couple hour hold): Sorry to keep you waiting, what can I help you with.

Tech: My customer states that her 5 day old 1981 De Ville stumble, hesitates and doesn't run smoothly.

Corporate: Did you run a diagnostic with our new computerized analyzer?

Tech: I have no training with it, so I did the basics. I checked the spark plugs, wires, distributor, fuel, air intake - it's all good. The car should run well, but it doesn't.

Corporate: Ummmm. Uhhhhh. Let me get my manager.

Manager: Tell your client that a software fix is in the works and we'll send it to you as soon as it's completed.

Hi Lyn,

As always, I learn something from this site. I had no idea Deere did this. Shame on them!

I don't own a Maserati, but I was told that a maintenance reminder light comes on at XXX miles. If you don't service the car, one day it just shuts off and you can't drive it. It has to be towed to the nearest Maserati dealer. I never verified this, so I don't know if it's true, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I know that many manufactures have put "software" in their cars to prevent backyard mechanics from doing normal repairs. For instance, for many years, BMW has had a program which limits the field on the alternator, which is based on the life of the battery. You can put a brand new battery in the car, but if you don't tell the software, it'll think it's an old battery and will keep the charging current low. Or a Mercedes S Class braking system. The calipers are controlled by software, so if you want to do a brake job, you need a scan tool to release the calipers.

And it’s getting worse.,,

It sure was nice when upgrades were permanently installed instead of uploaded and downgrades weren't downloaded.

Not a rant, that is pure eloquence.

I agree with BSR. And it's not limited to the tractors and cars, but appliances, computers, etc. I've been a loyal Mac fan since the beginning ('84) but as Apple makes it harder and harder to service their machines, my loyalty is starting to weaken...

If you aren't already involved, join the "Right to Repair" movement! I have!

What! You mean you don't want to be a member of the Borg Collective, Rider of 8?? Neither do I. I won't own a self-driving car! I still like riding my Harley (wind in my face - I wear a helmet), and when I can all the windows down and sun/moon roof open in my SHO!

I agree.

Agreed! You bought the car (as a whole item) and you should be able to do what you want with it. It's yours!

Your robo-car example is going to be the future, with one change. There will be no credit cards to put into slots - you'll just waive your phone over a "reader" and off you go. Or maybe it'll be your thumbprint?

I love driving with the top down, letting my little 2.0L rev away, then heading to the canyons and rowing through the gears! That's life!

Thanks for the post!

I repaired my buddie's washer that wouldn't spin. It was either the $40 mechanical actuator or the $400 control board.

That control board is no more complex than a $40 Arduino.

Same thing whith ovens and ranges. The mechanicals are cheap, the control boards are what force a replacement in 10 to 15 years.

On all my appliances with circuit boards (which is nearly everything in our house), I put one of those little surge protector boxes on every one. I've had pretty good luck with circuit boards not blowing over the past years - knock on wood!

We are back to a previously discussed topic. Planned obsolescence. Even though all manufacturers will claim the electronics are there for "consumer benefit" and "ease of maintenance" I for one, firmly believe that this is not the case.

All electronics are not perfect or are meant to last for ever. It is just another ruse to ensure that replacements will be required. By making the electronics expensive(over priced), it becomes a cost benefit analysis of "repair or replace".

After all, isn't it most corporations goal to make money, and how better than having to replace something on a regular basis.

My last tenants made a mess of the stove top - gas, four burner Whirlpool. I lifted the top and cleaned the mess under, being careful not to damage the tubes. I tested the stove and it worked fine, but I think I kinked the tubes a little.

My new tenants had their cleaning lady clean the stove. I think she opened the top and because the tubes were damaged, they cracked. When my tenant turned the stove on, the two front burners wouldn't produce a large flame. The one on the left would make a pop once in a while (from a pocket of unburned gas igniting). She also complained about the smell of gas when they turned the stove on. I called my appliance parts store and of course the tubes were not in stock. The cost for replacements? $75-85 each, with my discount. The front two were cracked, so I was going to order them, but I decided to give Ebay a try. New was about $45 each - much better! I found a used set of four, including the control valve for $66 including shipping! I changed the front two and I have spares for the back two - plus I have four valves, just in case I need them!

$75-85 each for a bent piece of aluminum tube with a fitting on one end and a small orfice on the other. Compare this to the entire range at $500 or so. Yes, appliance parts are too expensive!

Expensive, I think, is an underrated word in this case, I would use exhorbitant. After all,,, it's not like they make them to order, 1 or 2 at a time, unless the appliance is very old and then, aftermarket parts should be the route to go, as long as they parts are produced by a reputable company.

Figure out the cost for the OEM

tube - probably a few $ or less

fitting - in bulk -not more than $1

labour - all automated these days, so not much cost there either -even at over $100/hour, not more than a few minutes.

shipping - mail or courier - at most $5 - $6

Look at it the way of the automotive industry. Most make very little per vehicle on the sale, but replacement parts are an arm and a leg.

Not may people would go to your lengths to find something less expensive, and just pay the price.

I certainly agree that repair parts are way overpriced, but you did leave out a few major expenses for repair part suppliers: individual packaging, tracking, warehousing, and handling.

True. I as a hard goods manufacturer have most of those costs built in to my hourly shop rate. I am sure that each manufacturer handles this costs in their own way.

The costs of repair/replacement parts are normally high... i felt it had to be due to the individual package, quality (OEM parts), and availability which we both agree with.

its difficult to say what a fair price? With out paying for a cheap knock-off the doesn’t last.

I thought the same thing. Aluminum tube is pennies. Fittings are pennies. Machines bend the tubing - pennies. Cleaning the finished product - pennies. Add the labor, overhead and other misc items and the part may have a cost of $3 to make. Add management and the C Suite and we double to $6. Packaging maybe a dollar more. Ship to a parts warehouse - remember this is in bulk, so maybe 50 cents. Total cost for the part at the warehouse is $7.50. Then mark it up 10-12 times!

The problem with replacement parts is that manufacturers are required by federal law to stock parts for 10 years, these parts are made in the time period that the appliance was made....now the amount of stocked parts is estimated and warehoused, and the next model with perhaps different parts is introduced....Now if the manufacturer runs out of stocked replacement parts they have to start making the parts again, or pay somebody to do it, it's much more economically efficient to just keep raising the prices as the replacement stock diminishes, thereby making replacement parts more and more expensive as the stock wanes....before they run out of even the most humble part, the price has risen to ridiculous levels...sometimes they equal a new appliance in cost...but at least one replacement part is maintained....haha

Great point.

Used car dealers are not known for their honesty. Though there are some good ones.

Bait and Switch - didn't that term come from car dealers?

Here in CA, title are "branded" and every dealer MUST disclose a branded title, PERIOD! The state is trying to warn people that buying a salvaged car is not recommended, but the state can't force you to avoid the purchase. Lenders also won't finance a salvaged car. So the only way to buy one on payments is the "buy here, pay here" lots, which are typically the scum of the earth taking advantage of people who aren't too bright.

I've seen lots of Craigslist ads tell the "story" about the salvaged car they're selling. "The car was in a parking lot and only was bumped" or "The door had a scrape from hitting a pole" or "It was only a $500 repair to the door". Come on people! Why on earth would an insurance company take a loss on such minor damage?

Buyers want to believe they've found the needle in the haystack. They want to brag about how great of a deal they got. I've been in the business since 2002 and I've had many clients come to my office looking for a 3 year old BMW 3 Series with only 20K miles for $11K. The car was $35K or more new and you think it depreciated that much? And why do legitimate dealers sell the same car for $20K? I get paid to guide people in the right direction, but some don't listen and I've had many clients come back to my desk with their purchase order from a sled lot. When I tell them that we won't finance it because it's a salvage car, they have that blank stare. Then I tell them that they signed an option contract, so they're stuck paying 29.95% to the dealer, since no other lenders will take the loan. Dead silence!

So, it doesn't surprise me that a dirty used car lot sold an unsuspecting client an unsafe car. Whether it was disclosed or not, we don't know. The customer may have been told, but he didn't want to hear it, so he selectively ignored what was said. Or the crafty dealer slid a disclosure form with the words "salvage" under his thumb for the customer to sign.

One final note about salvaged cars. Not all are bad, but most are. I had a 1996 Jaguar XJ6 VDP that was hit in a parking lot by a Ford F250. The damage to my car was:

1. Stainless steel trim on top of the bumper was scratched. Accent trim on bumper was cracked. Paint on top of bumper was scratched deeply.

2. Left rear taillight was cracked and chrome bezel surround cracked.

3. Deck lid was dented. Emblem on lid was cracked.

4. Rear quarter was dented surrounding the tail light.

Nothing else. No frame damage, etc.

My insurance company claimed it a total loss due to cost of repairing vs replacement value. They gave me $7200 and I kept the XJ ($600) and later they gave me my $500 deductible back. The repair bill was so high, because the parts were expensive. I think the part in #1 was $1600 alone. Repair bill was over $5K, so they totalled it. I fixed the tail light and left the rest of the car the same. I had to take it to a brake and light shop to verify the brakes and lights worked ($60 for a 2 minute inspection). Then the DMV gave me a salvage title. I drove the car for a while, then gave it to my sister. She's still driving the car and she told me it's the nicest car she's ever driven - even better than her Lexus!

This was a salvage title. I understand why Tesla would not want these features transferred.

The real question is if these features are transferable when the car is sold through normal channels? If not, was this fact clearly disclosed at the first sale?

I would think non-transferability of good features would reduce the value of those features, and reduce the resale value relative to the purchase price.

Having bought a Model 3 I can tell you for a fact that yes, it is disclosed that you are not the owner of the features as they are software dependent on Tesla.

Basic features like cruise control etc, are. Advanced features are not and you sign a line in the contract to the effect that you understand Tesla retains the right to change the car over time and that those systems and related changes are not "yours" anymore than the operating system of an iPhone and its subsequent updates are yours.

Welcome to the "IT AINT YO MAMAS WELFARE" automotive version. You'd think the fact that you are writing 2020 on things would be your first clue things are no longer as they were in 1972.

\or maybe that's just me.

I heard the same thing from other Tesla buyer. You sign a disclosure document - when I first heard it, I was very surprised. Why?

I've delivered cars from nearly every manufacturer. Not one has a disclose like this. The only oddball disclosure I've seen is with high end imports. The dealer has the client sign a disclosure stating that they are not planning to export the car outside the US. I had one client who was concerned that he may be returning to his country after his contract was done. I told him that you're not buying the car with the intention of exporting it for a profit, so the disclosure doesn't affect him.

Other than the export disclosure, I've never seen a disclosure regarding the ownership of software.

I think it's just a matter of time before competing operating systems become available...hey we can make your car do this with this program....the aftermarket customization of automobiles has always been robust, no reason to think it will end anytime soon....

I tend to agree with you but in a very limited sense. The liability of altering an ignition curve is not the same as modifying the control program of an autonomous driving program. I think with this level you start entering the LAWYER ZONE. Are your Unapproved modifications substantially responsible for the loss of control and fatality?

Then you have the Tesla computer system which is years ahead of anything currently out there. Literally a quantum leap ahead of what everyone else is using. (see the hilarious OOPSY that Audi is dealing with as their "brand new, purpose built" (a lie btw) software is telling owners they need an oil change because its the same software that runs their other cars. They were unable to develop anything and get it out there. VW literally has thousands of cars built that are waiting for the computer technology to catch up because they refused to try and mislead the customer again and pull an Audi. That is what getting busted for hubris will do. Clears the corporate head of outdated ideas and people and ledgers of billions in fines and lost profits.

Strong Coffee!

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-Toyota-and-VW2

Well we have aftermarket tires, brakes etc ...all could cause fatalities if they failed...so I don't see any difference, and I don't see the existing OSes as being infallible to begin with...so what's the difference? You want to say Tesla is a few steps ahead, ok, but that could change tomorrow, and even more advanced systems could become available...then what?

I would hope so. That is the basis of my point. But also foundational is the understanding that a tire still has to meet certain specifications in order to be "certified" and that process limits its usage. Now if it is installed incorrectly by your intent you become liable for the accident it caused. (most tire places will not improperly install a tire as they become liable if they do)

Are there people for whom making a fast buck is so important they would have no problem putting you and everyone else in danger? Well of course there are and this initial rebuilder and used car seller are two perfect examples of corrupt people willing to do or say anything for money. Do you really believe the rebuilder can certify the car he rewelded and glued back together is safe? Of course not.

Aftermarket is not going to be as robust for road safe cars. Accessories will be fine but performance mods will become a thing of the past. (its done with an over the air update in the 21st century) Going forward, cars will be less appliance an more a contracted service. That will be a difficult transition for the Marlboro men among us.

Now the hobbists and hot rodders. those that require the special not for street use tags, they are going to have a field day. You'll still find big brake kits, lift kits, all that sort of stuff, but the days of picking uip a new "evenflo" manifold and bigger Holley carb and bolting them on and hoping the car doesn't blow up are over.

What about the motor upgrade, or second or third motor upgrade? There is no such thing as a car that can't be modded....

https://unpluggedperformance.com/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcMfCkN1juSa49DJFYltOTw

Before we even get to the possible collision liability of an accident involving another car lets talk about what you describe in these videos.

We all know that an electric motor goes as fast as the energy you give it. It will keep spinning faster until you stop adding power.

The problem is the motor has a physical limit to how much centrifugal force it can resist. The motor casing is designed to contain a normal armature failure. If good engineering was involved the case is built to withstand more force than the LIMITED motor would produce in fail mode.

But an unlimited motor? The person joy riding in the back seat, basically sitting on the motor, when you dropped the hammer on your hotwired Tesla, is going to get an unpleasant surprise when that armature lets loose.

Who is responsible for the fatality?

No. Every type of electric motor has speed limitations. The most common source of that speed limit is the back EMF generated by the motion.

So what you are saying I there is no way I can put so much power into an electric motor that it wont "throw a winding" or have part of the armature break off or literally spin apart?

Interesting. I have of these failure modes in electric motors many times and twice in Large Deere powered generators.

What I am saying is that when someone puts a jet engine in a car and runs down Bonnyville that's fine, we just had a lady kill herself that way. They are not endangering others. Knock yourself out.

Modifications that create unsafe conditions on crowded roadways are a problem as it is in the auto world and so there are ever increasing regulations regarding what constitutes an "off road" vehicle, and of course the inevitable cry of overreach, usually by those who were putting everyone in danger to begin with.

Even Tesla realized this and removed those overly advance and not refined enough self driving feature from the early S and X units. but as the article this week clearly shows, many drivers did not update. That is weird because they intentionally choose to be unsafe and endanger others. What kind of person does that?

Just about everyone at some point.

Common sense, is not so common.

You are arguing your own contradiction. If an electric motor didn't have a limit then it wouldn't break down regardless of how much electric power was applied. EMDW

I have over reved a few motors in my day by applying more power than it was rated for. What was supposed to prevent me from being able to do that?

OK, so when you applied voltage x to an electric motor rated for voltage v (x>v) did the rotor continuously accelerate until the edges of the rotor were approaching the speed of light? No, it did not. It reached a limit based on the value of voltage x. When you applied voltage z (z>x>v) you may have started to see insulation smoke or mechanical imbalances starting to become a problem but you again did not see the rotor to continuously accelerate before mechanical failures made a weird sound and smell.

There are multiple limits to how much electric power an electric motor can transform into mechanical power.

No, I saw the motor go faster than it did on the lower voltage. I also noted more heat.

It went faster but it didn't get faster and faster unless you raised the voltage even more. That angular velocity limit based on the voltage applied is one of the limits of a DC electric motor. There are many more limits (i.e. core saturation, winding insulation breakdown) that limit how much power an electric motor can produce. Everything has a limit.

Ah. good. I was afraid you were trying to tell me it didn't matter how much voltage/amperage I applied the motor would self regulate and not blow itself apart.

You should know by now Red I am not an engineer, but I also don't believe in perpetual motion machines either. It is fairly common sense that if you limit the input V/A you are limiting the motor speed.

SO we do agree after all, if you exceed the motors mechanical, physical, electrical limits it will not end well.

Not all electric motors work the same way. I was discussing a DC motor because that type of motor responded closest to your proposal and what I believe Tesla uses in their vehicles. If you only raise the voltage on an AC synchronous motor the rotor does not move at all faster. The AC frequency determines how fast the rotor moves. Raising the voltage will raise the power put into the motor but the extra power will just become heat and not extra mechanical power.

Hi Redfred,

I had a discussion not too long ago about Tesla motors. The earlier versions used induction motors, while the Model 3 (and I believe future cars) use a DC motor.

It surprised me, but I researched it and it's correct.

Yes, the earliest Teslas did use a synchronous induction motor with a variable frequency drive to allow for motor speed changes. They changed to a DC motor partly because of the very high low speed torque and the simplicity of the drive control. I'm not sure if they are using a brushed or brushless motor.

Very, true and there is lots of info on the Tesla site about the motor.

This is what we talk about when we discuss the speed at which the field of electric drive and battery tech will now advance. Serious R&D is now being done because Tesla has shown there is money to be made.

This was the intention from the beginning. Force the issue. That it is turning into a profitable car company. Bonus.

I think the key will be the battery. As batteries can hold a larger and larger amount of energy, the general public will buy more EV's. Kind of like a phone - remember the early phones that you could talk for an hour or so, then the battery died. It wasn't very useful, but it was a cool thing to have. Then the battery life got better, more networks/antenna were installed and the general public bought in. It was now a usable tool.

For EV cars, I believe that something has to happen to make batteries less expensive and more efficient. When the average buyer can get his new EV Camry for $25K less $1,500 in rebates and he can either charge on the go (inductive charging built into the roadway, the parking lot at work or a mat in his garage) or charging takes about the same time as putting gas in the car - then we'll see the evolution to EV's. Until then, I believe it's going to be a slow transition, because most of my clients won't pay a $10K premium for the "green effect", when they have to deal with the inconvenience of charging their car and the fear of running out of electricity when stuck in traffic on a cold day (one day it took me over 6 hours to get home - it was a cold rainy day with flooded freeways). There was no way to get off the freeway, traffic was stopped and it was cold for us - high 40's to low 50's.

All true, I had one of those early Motorola bag phones. Followed by an Erikkson Brick. Just look at my LG G7 today. When you consider the automakers have been building and selling you the same car for the last 50 years it was quite obvious they would not be the leaders in this.

One of the problems with a free market economy is it rarely stays free. A good example is Gillette and Schick. Prices kept going up and up because no competition. They set the price and you paid it. They bought every possible disrupter until Harry's when a judge took the unprecedented action of defying the monopoly and did not allow Schick to buy Harry's.

Otherwise it would have been the good old "Buy and Bury" the American way to stiffle innovation.

What exactly do you think the "Captains of Industry" do in Davos every year, Go skiing and eat blintzes?

My first phone was Motorola Brick back in the early 90's. Worthless and not very portable, but it was cool. The cell plan was also outrageously expensive. I remember having people ask to use my phone. I told them I get billed by the minute, so unless it's an emergency, don't use it, just to impress the pretty girl at the bar! Yes, this is what happened, my friend wanted to walk by a girl at the bar while he was talking on my Motorola Brick!

Going back to EV's. I'm anxious to order a Porsche Taycan for a client, so I can take it around the block. I've heard some great things about the car, power/handling, Porsche engineering and fit and finish. Though it's hard to see Porsche call the model a Turbo or Turbo S. I've heard their PR guy explain why they continued with those designations, but we here know that there's no turbocharger in an EV, wink wink! Even a Porsche EV!

Battery upgrades too! Or you can change the handling characteristics by controlling the power to each wheel or torque vector braking.

I think all Tesla aftermarket software mods will need to have one key feature - it'll have to block all automatic updates from Tesla. If it doesn't, I feel there can be a conflict between the versions.

This is going to get very interesting in the future.

Hi Solar,

I think the Tesla issue is different, because a software mod (to improve range, power, etc) could have an effect on a future software update from the manufacturer.

I'm not an expert in software, so I'm just guessing, but I feel this is a place where problems can occur.

Here's a Lawyer we can all appreciate..

Mainly because he's talking sense and doesn't bill us for his time!

He also likes cars

Speaking of Tesla, an old school hack of traffic signs has tricked two Tesla Autopilot systems to exceed the speed limit by 50 MPH.

On second thought, this is so absurd that it sounds like a spoof. Then again a spoof usually has to be plausible to be believed.

I have no knowledge of whether that article is valid or fake, but I suspect the latter.

My 2015 car's navigation system has no cameras or other systems capable of reading any signs, yet with GPS, it commonly displays the current speed limit, and I have not yet seen it show an incorrect value, except when driving on a newly modernized highway, where it shows the previously correct values. I have paid close attention on a number of occasions, and it changes quite close to the locations of signs posting changed speed limits.

I have not purchased updated maps for the system, and have no knowledge of whether it is capable of wireless updating. On at least one occasion, where the new highway was several hundred feet away from the original route, it did instruct me to "return to the route".

in my area, the surface streets and highways are close enough that i dont trust GPS as a guide re which parallel road i am on.

I obviously don't know where you are located, and of course I don't know what GPS system you are using, but both my car and my iPhone GPS systems are sufficiently precise to know which lane I'm in, at least some of the time. I have the impression that the precision of either of them is roughly ±10 feet, or 3 meters.

Most phone based GPS systems know where you're at within a few feet. For instance, on Saturday, I took a Lyft. The pick up spot would move as I walked from one side of the parking lot to the other. The accuracy was within a couple feet.

When the Lyft driver was in a lane, the software told her to move to the next lane. It knew which lane she was in.

What I find amazing is that these systems are so good. When I was in college, nobody dreamed we'd have such a system with such good accuracy and speed. As close to real time as possible and when 5G comes out, it'll be even faster.

"...when 5G comes out, it'll be even faster."

I don't think so. The Cellular system and the GPS system are totally separate. A faster celluar system won't affect the operation of the GPS system on your phone.

I occasionally use the "Topo Maps" app on my iPhone. If you download the appropriate maps ahead of time, then no cellular connection is required during use. Around a year ago, I went hiking in Acadia National Park, in an area where I knew there was not likely to be cell service (and there wasn't). Knowing that, I downloaded the corresponding maps onto my iPhone ahead of time. At a few places, the trail disappeared, but I easily got back to it each time by using the GPS on my iPhone,

The 5G probably WILL reduce the download times to acquire those maps, when within range of a cell antenna. On the other hand, 5G will have a shorter range per antenna, so the pre-downloaded maps will become necessary earlier on the hike!

I read that two of 5G's benefits will be

1. More accurate positioning - If we have a more accurate picture of where we're at, then we'll be able to more quickly compute locations very close to us and also locations of others nearby.

2. Faster communication between users (larger bandwidth and less latency), so one user can find where they're at based on the location of other users in the area.

Your topo map example is based on GPS signals only, where the new 5G location/navigation system will be based on terrestial and comparitive (with other nearby users) along with GPS.

I was amazed at what 5G will do to new cars. I think this is one of the keys to autonomous cars. Latency and slow systems are the current problem, which will be resolved with 5G.

All the things you describe require two-way communications. GPS is a receive-only system, and by itself sends no signals anywhere. The phones are certainly capable of sending their GPS location information via cell connection, and I presume they do that when in cell range and when requested. Whether that occurs constantly when within range of a cell tower, I don't know. If it does, it could significantly reduce battery charge life.

I seriously doubt if the 5G cell towers will include the very precise timing that the GPS satellites use. GPS positioning only works when the unit has access to multiple satellites, and the same would be true of 5G signals if they are to be used for precise positioning. That might work in urban areas, but not so well in more rural places like where I live.

But urban locations are where all new technology gets over-hyped. It's been that way since the Edison-Westinghouse power distribution wars.

Yes, GPS is a receive only system. The new 5G stuff will use receive and transmit to other 5G devices in the area. This is what I read. The higher speed will allow the fast communication necessary for autonomous driving. The new cars will not only have a more accurate positioning, but also be able to communicate with other devices including cars.

Think of the possibilities. Your car will be able communicate with any other 5G device in the vicinity. Parking garages, street signs, street lights, people walking with cell phones or other devices. I see huge potential with 5G.

You do realize what all of the extra bandwidth of 5G will mean, more useless and pointless digital traffic and bloatware. I just downloaded and installed on my phone a "new" update of the Google browser(?) on my cell phone that was 25 MB of data. The 20 lines of ASCII text telling me the few things this update "improves" did not require 20 kB of memory.

Could that be a reason why Tesla keeps all of its in house?

That and security I'm sure.

Not saying this is the case, but I see it as similar to the "Wind Talker". THe Japanese were attempting to "break a code" based on English. The had no chance in hell of deciphering the Navaho language because they had no clue it was a completely different language not an encoded English.

Muskanese is the language of Tesla.

That's why you need to upgrade your cell phone as soon as you have 5G service in the area. Bloated with all kinds of stuff running in the background; tracking your every move; watching what time you go places, where you eat and how long you spend in the restaurant and stores!

Big Brother keeps watching more and more.

A funny thing is that I carry my little LG 470B flip phone with me almost all the time. My iPhone sits at home, unless I need navigation or I'll need to check email or go on the internet.

The millennials call it a dinosaur phone! Little do they know that there was a time when we didn't have cell phones. Or if we did, it came with a suitcase or it was a big brick that had a 1 hour talk time.

The sign reading capability on my car is GPS based when it comes to speed limit signs. I've had my car show a speed limit sign of 30mph when I just passed a new sign that says 35 mph. The GPS-speed limit link had not been updated yet.

Also, a speed limit will show up on my dashboard, but there are no signs around (lets say I just turned on to a side street from a four lane road). If it were a sign reading camera based system, it wouldn't know the speed limit.

I could be wrong about all systems using GPS, but I know that my car does.

this will be the largest legal morass *ever*.

car makers will be sued regardless of fault, simply because they have money; liability is irrelevant to a sympathetic jury.

locking down the software is their best defense, although i deplore the practice.

a bit of black tape is enough for a tesla to see a 35 limit sign as an 85 limit sign. fix this problem, and another one will arise.

rinse, repeat.

Like dkw above said, speed is more likely to be determined from a GPS coordinate instead of imaging a sign. But it does have enough plausibility to be believable.

The article is real, although I am not sure of the purpose. the altered sign would have fooled a human as well, but it would not have fooled my Model 3. The article also didn't say what version of software the cars were running. One of the problems that has arisen are people not updating. The early S and X did read signs, and lights etc. but were not very reliable. Starting with the 2018 version, all cars that had HW.1 were "nerfed". meaning those features were removed or deactivated as it had proven far too much responsibility for Americans to handle properly. All the videos of people in the back seat etc.

With HW2.5 that I run, the car "sees" the signs but does not react to them. It uses the GPS, map based, and crowd source information for speed. My car would have stayed at its set speed unless the GPS / Map indicated speed had changed.

Cars running HW3.0 are now seeing things on their dash display like signs and traffic lights and such, but the car does not respond to them. So those too would have maintained set speed.

Isn't this dangerous from a legal point of view? Simply out yes. You use anything wrongly resulting in death you are in a world of shit.

Which moving on to....

But if hackers are hacking the software and the car then inadvertently kills someone then won't the hackers be liable instead of Tesla? Depend a little on the laws of the land. Here it could be taken as "culpable homicide not amounting to murder". Back home in OZ, it could be taken as "culpable driving causing death" - but each state has slightly different traffic laws.

In the US of A who knows, but as gun makers can't be held responsible for deaths, it could be only the person (and their accomplice) "occasioning or causing" the death can be held responsible..

There are accidents where no-one is determined to be at fault, or both share equally the blame...In a case like this there would be no intent and no negligence, it might be rather problematic to assign blame....The programmer, the installer, the weather, a mechanical component, or the driver, it could turn out to be an expensive wild goose chase...each could claim the other was at fault....

Totally agree about the zero blame bit, in as much as in some accidents both party's can be at fault, but practically unheard of is 50/50. As for no intent and no negligence, the very act of altering the vehicle exhibits the intent to alter the manufactures express vehicle purpose and negligence would come down to the extent (Quoting She Who Must Be Obeyed now - a Barrister and Solicitor)

The programmer of "the hack" clearly has intent, as does the owner, and the installer becomes an accessory before the fact (almost a co-conspirator under an extreme set of circumstances).

The weather, a mechanical component, or the driver, become ancillary to the proximate cause - "the hack" - with the weather, a mechanical component and the driver being contributory. For example if "the hack" boosted the available power/torque by 25% and the road is foggy, and the driver slams on the brakes at the last minute to avoid a group of people he didn't detect and the brakes can't stop the newly enraged vehicle in time, and he flattens them he would be negligent BUT if it could be proven that the un-modified vehicle should have/could have easily stopped in the same distance then the programmer, as does the owner, the driver and the installer, the even becomes much more serious and all become gaol bait - to slightly differing extents. An extreme set of circumstances, perchance?

Here is a "devil's advocate" comment on Tesla's possible responsibility. Tesla might be partly to blame for a third party hack if it is really easy or simple to modify the vehicle, at least at production time. Tesla will always be liable for the security of the software. The security level does not have to be impervious to intruders, just difficult to circumvent. My other comment about the old school trick of turning a 35 MPH sign into an 85 MPH sign is just such a simple hack that Tesla does have some liability here. Disabling the software to using only camera images for speed control appears to be how they mitigated this problem if it ever existed at all.

Redfred,

You make an excellent point, but I don't know the answer. Here's an analogy that I feel fits (responsibility of manufacturer to make sure it's hard for someone to hack into the safety feature). Gun people say it's okay to buy an automatic assault rifle as long as there's a device to stop it from being fully automatic. Anti gun people say it shouldn't be sold, because it's too easily for anyone to convert it to fully automatic.

I'm not a gun person, so I don't know the outcome of the automatic assault rifle issue. Maybe someone can bring some light to this.

I had a 50/50 accident a few years ago. I was turning left and the lady coming toward me was also turning left. Both from a stop sign. We bumped (my front left hit hers). Both insurance companies deemed it 50/50 and luckily for me, even though my insurance paid, it was not my fault and my insurance didn't go up. They even gave me 1/2 of my deductible back.

That's the only 50/50 accident I've ever heard of and I am very grateful that the other driver was honest too.

Like was mentioned before with John Deere controlling the rights to their equipment they manufacture, well beyond the sale.

This is the problem with businesses starting with customer first, and then it transforms to pleasing the stockholders. I also feel this will stymie innovation from individuals.

Here’s an interesting point,...I programmed Shoda CNC routers at the shipyard what’s seems like a life time ago.

we purchased a number of options for the machine (such as the canned drill cycle)... what was interesting... the options were never installed,... why, because it came with the machine and what we actually purchased was the code to turn the options on in the register such as 01101001.

and what one always did, was to back up your register...

Wow, that's very interesting. Selling a machine with capabilities built in, but you don't get to use them unless you pay extra.

I've been out of the commercial side for many years. The last time I did some purchases was in 1992 and you bought better equipment by buying machines that had more capabilities, not just plugging in a software "key".

I guess this is the future and we'll see more and more coming. I just can't get my hands around buying something like a new tv. It has 4K capability, but you can't use it unless you buy the "key" to unlock the code.

It seem like they're asking for things to be jailbroke.

"Selling a machine with capabilities built in, but you don't get to use them unless you pay extra."

That's been common practice in software for years. My CAD program has lots of features that I don't use, and can't use unless I pay extra for them. In some cases, that additional software is already on my machine, but it requires a different key code for that software to be available.

It’s all in the program (or ladder Logic)... the hardware is basically already there..

So True, All I had to do was buy the dash switches for the heated seats in my Caliber. Pop out the filler plugs, plug in the switches, snap them into the dash bezel. There was even a fuse already in place in the fusebox. The seats were already hooked to the wiring harness. (which was what tipped me off to the fact that they were heated.) Non power seats with a wiring harness? Now what could that be for? LoL.

and a process, I needed to use a spindle, intimate it, but not turn it on (rev’s) on a special process I came up with, the tech gave me the code... I suppose after spending so much on a new machine and the options...
I was really surprise, when the tech pointed out to me told me Where to go in the register and enter the 0’s and 1’s.

he then gave me the GCode to initiate it,... (to turn it off was the standard m code,... I believe it was M5, this was a lifetime ago.

Wow, I had no idea.

So, I recently got a used 2015 Nissan Rogue for my daughter. It's a Rogue Select, which means it's the old body style that Nissan kept going while the new body style was in production and being sold. They de-contented the car and dropped the price. She had a 2011 Nissan Rogue SV, which is their middle of the road trim level. It has some nice upgrades from the base "S" model. Smart key, power drivers seat, navigation, back up camera, steering wheel with controls, cruise control, climate control, lighted mirrors on the sun visors, rear spoiler, luggage rack rails, alloy wheels and upgraded speakers.

I know the smart key requires hardware changes (buttons on the door handles and a different ignition switch. Power drivers seat also requires a hardware change (motors and switches vs levers. Navigation and a back up camera requires a different head unit with a screen. Stereo controls on the steering wheel requires switches on the steering wheel and maybe a different clock spring - again hardware. Cruise control requires a cruise control module and buttons on the steering wheel - more hardware changes. Climate control ... I was just thinking about this today. I was wondering if I just changed the panel, would the climate control be able to replace the manual hvac unit? Climate control requires an interior thermometer, outside thermometer and a controller to adjust the hot/cold setting and fan speed. Are these all on the 2015 Rogue? If so, then could I just change the panels? Or could I blow something out (control unit is looking for a resistance in the circuit, but it's a different fan motor and the resistance is too low and it blows the control unit board).

Of the other upgrades, all are hardware changes. The lighted sunvisors require switched power. I'm curious of Nissan has the connector near the visor or if they use a different harness for SV and Select cars?

As you can see, most upgrades for the Rogue require better hardware.

A little off the subject, but quite interesting. I bought a Pioneer touch screen, bluetooth, Apple Carplay compatible stereo system for the 2015 Rogue. The Pioneer system isn't as fast as the OEM systems, but the sound is much better and the Apple Carplay is great to use. I downloaded Spotify and I'm in utter shock at how great it does to find songs I like. I've heard songs going way back - songs I haven't heard for over a decade - maybe two! I really like Spotify and Apple Carplay!

Car companies have been moving to this for a while now. In the case of the Caliber, it shared platform and parts with the Jeep Patriot and Compass. Basically a Dodge branded Jeep like the Nitro.

They had five listed trim level for all three vehicles. They only made two seats for all of these. The High line and the base. All seats had heaters. The power seats had a different seat base but were the same frames and cushions with heater assembly.

They made one wiring harness for all three with vehicle specific sub harnesses as needed for vehicle specific options.

Standardized production

Adding the switches was all that was missing.

Fog lights were another. The wiring and brackets are in all level trims of these vehicles.

I know that Honda is different. I added some fog lights to a Honda CR-V a few years ago for my client. I was hoping I could just plug and play - install the lights and plug in the wire. Nope! I had to install the light, run the wire, then add a switch. It was a factory kit from Honda. The dealers have to do the same if you add fog lights.

Back in 2017, I leased a Patriot High Altitude. Leather seats, heated seats, power moonroof, 17" graphite alloys, etc. It looked great on paper, but driving it was a different story. The little 2.0L 4 cylinder was gutless. Fuel economy wasn't great - not what I expected from a 2.0L. Transmission wasn't designed right. Comfort was fair at best. Seats were uncomfortable.

The only things I liked were the stereo controls on the back of the steering wheel (great idea), the car looked good, great visibility and cheap payment (171/mo including tax) and $0 drive off.

I drove the car in town near my office for a week or so. The first day I drove the car home, I noticed the outside temperature was off (low by 50 degrees or so). On the way to work the next day, I was ready to crest a small hill (like going over a freeway overpass), when the CEL triggered. When I got to work, I called Jeep. The car had 181 miles on the odo when the CEL triggered. Jeep customer service stinks! They finally set up an appointment that day to drop the car off (they wanted me to continue driving the car with the CEL on, even though they had no idea what was wrong). And after a lot of complaining and threats, they agreed to give me a loaner car.

The dealer had the car for over 3 weeks - they fixed a sensor, thought it was good and called me to say a different problem popped up. The tech told me they had to call Detroit to help them diagnose the problem. What was wrong? A wire was pinched during assembly causing a ground and no signal from the outside temp sensor.

I sold the car 3-4 months later and the only thing I regret is leasing the car in the first place.

I feel ya, got the same 2.0 cvt set up in the '11 Caliber. At least it didn't have to push a transfer case and rear axle so the Caliber was at least "peppy".

Now when I see an almost 500ci 700hp hemi V8 rated at 25mpg and my little 2.0 liter is rated for the same mileage? What kind of alchemy is used to do this? Is the 158hp 2.0 liter dumping gas on the ground? Just plain crazy that the car companies figure you aren't smart enough to notice this makes no sense.

I wasn't expecting a Jeep so I wasn't disappointed with anything but the mileage. I can image if you were expecting jeep like performance you were greatly let down.

I was hoping it would perform as well as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

Not reliable like a Toyota or Honda - I didn't expect it, but I also didn't expect the CEL to turn on (I thought it would stay off for at least the length of the lease)

I didn't expect the quality to be near Toyota or Honda, but having squeaks and rattles from day 1 isn't acceptable. The dealer couldn't get rid of them either - my gut feeling is that they didn't even try, which is not acceptable.

I didn't expect Toyota or Honda fuel economy, but I did expect it to get better gas mileage than my BMW 328i. The BMW got better gas mileage by more than 20%!

I also didn't expect it to act like an off road Jeep. My car was a front wheel drive and I bought it to be a commuter car. It failed at that.

You know how they say "don't buy a car that was built on a Monday or Friday"? I think my Patriot was a Monday or Friday car.

I've owned two other "modern" Chrysler products. The first was a 1992 Dodge Dynasty. Everything seemed to break on that car. After the dealer offered me $3,500 trade in on a 3 year old car (I paid $18,500 for the car) and he insulted me by saying that they could only give me that much because they don't want the car, nobody wants the car and it's obvious that I don't want the car either. Three transmissions and two motors in 4 years. Electrical problems, it ate front brakes every 10,000 miles, but the original rear drum brakes were almost new after 4 years - yes, something was wrong with the proportioning valve!

The other one was a 2017 Dodge Journey, which I also leased. Squeaks and rattles - check. Poor fuel economy - check. Uncomfortable seats - check. Poor fit and finish - check. Cheap plasticy interior - check. Cool buttons on the back of the steering wheel - check. Good visibility - check. Cheap lease payment ($254/mo with $0 drive off) - check. Poor choice for a commuter car - check! I got rid of that one at 6,000 miles or so.

I'd have to say Muskese is definitely a language all its own. Up here in Wisconsin you say"Muskese" and they think your talking to the fish.

I was never expecting a $19,000 Caliber to be anything but a cheap car. I was not disappointed in it except for the mileage. Squeeks and rattles are kinda been a Chrysler trademark. I will say the front suspension geometry on the Caliber is bad. it literally eats front ball joints about every 15,000 miles. It currently has 120,000 on it so I can tell you I can swap out the front control arms in under two hours.

Of course that is the first thing I noticed the lack of in the Model 3. Just rolled over to Milwaukee and back Wednesday, missed all the excitement at Coors, It turned 24,000 miles during the ride. It is still squeak and rattle free, and they would be instantly noticeable in a car this quiet.

I've heard the Teslas are super quiet. It makes sense, because when one passes in the parking lot, I don't hear it. I've been told that EVs will be required to make an artificial noise to alert pedestrians that they're nearby and running/moving.

A few years ago, I was working on an idea - to create an app that would tell people nearby that an EV (whether an EV or Hybrid in EV mode) is driving (as a warning), then sell the system to EV manufacturers. I was going to send this to my state senator to make it into a bill for the state. In the middle of development, a law was passed requiring EVs to make a noise when driving below 18.6 mph. It was passed in early 2018, so there went my invention and my chance to be a bizillionaire!

I just got a client a used 2016 Nissan Rogue to replace her 2012 Jeep Patriot with 112K miles on the clock. Her Patriot needed control arms/ball joints again - she thinks that all cars are like that, so when I told her that the Rogue will go 200K miles or more on the original front suspension, she was very happy.

Her Patriot also has a bad motor. After driving for 5 minutes, white smoke comes from the engine. Her mechanic told her it's most likely a head gasket, but the odd thing is that the radiator, hoses and thermostat are all good and haven't been changed. It doesn't overheat either. He told her it's not worth fixing the car - a good honest mechanic. He also told her to get a Japanese car instead of a domestic.

A few years ago, I owned a 2006 BMW 325i sedan. It was the first year of the E90 and I'd say it was a very good car. I've owned some later model E90's with the LCI refresh - I believe it started in 2009 until the F30 came out in 2012 - and they weren't built as well, nor did they have as rock solid feel. My 2006 had a button on the steering wheel for Bluetooth, but the car didn't have it activated. I went to a forum and someone gave me instructions on how to upgrade the car, without adding hardware. This was a shock to me as I always thought the dealer added a module. Now I know it was only a software reprogram.

On another note, we did a wheel swap on our 2011 Rogue (17" alloys) and our 2015 Rogue Select (16" steel with plastic wheel covers). The tire pressure sensor is the same physically. However, the part number has a date range and the car doesn't recognize the part number (electronic signal from the sensor), so it won't let it communicate with the computer in the car. There is only one way to change the sensor code - go to the dealer. We'll there's another fix, but that involves moving the sensors from one set of wheels to the other. That's what we wound up doing! A complete waste of time, just so Nissan can sell more tire pressure sensors or to force customers to the dealership, so they can make money "programming" the sensors for your car.

This guy bought a salvage Tesla and decided to rebuild it from the ground up with parts from other salvaged Tesla's....so many people got into it he started his own youtube channel and now plans to open his own Tesla repair shop...He has definitely had some back and forth with Tesla, who wouldn't sell him any parts, but it seems they softened their position and it looks like a go....

Rich Rebuilds....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA

I saw a Tesla Model S chassis at the Petersen Museum in LA a couple years ago. My impression was that it was built by someone who never built cars - a Frankenstein car. The parts were bulky, poorly cast and the welds inconsistent and too heavy. My friend owns a body shop - one day I came by and he was working on an Audi A8. Gorgeous chassis, a work of art! Beautiful finish, well made, precise and not bulky!

You be the judge.

Tesla:

Audi:

A well known teardown expert, Sandy Munro, made those same assertions initially, then had to walk them back. He discovered, as Audi itself has discovered, an electric car is not built like a ICE car. The stresses your are dealing with are different, the power you are managing is far beyond what an ICE car can develop. For a proper comparison you have to look at the construction of Funny Cars and other dragsters. Not works of art, but damn can they put the power to the pavement.

Anyway, what Munro discovered is that Tesla actually built an incredible vehicle, but was learning in the process of it. The S was rough to start with, the X was overdesigned and over built by design to support "those doors". The Model 3 was designed from the ground up, using the lessons learned from the S and X. It takes time because "conventional wisdom" does not apply to a vehicle that produces, transmits, and places power in such a drastically different way.

AS they all have discovered, BEV is a very different animal. It just looks similar. You don't just drop in an electric motor and battery. Even Porsche, who built the Taycan in the old fashioned way, years of road testing before a production candidate even appeared. What they learned is that doing it that way they were not going to be competitive with Tesla at the Model S price point, so they did a classic Porsche move and doubled down on uberexpensive. At least they built an actual electric car that is awesome even if it is unattainable for the masses.

Jaguar went a different way as only Jag could. The put the Ipace out there in imperfect form because Jaguar unreliability is apparent part of the attraction of the brand.

There's a new joke circulating in the EV community.

Who has a harder time than Tesla bringing an electric car to market?

Everybody!