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Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 8:34 AM

1.What is needed tobe included in the construction of 150,000metric tonnes tanks to store palm oil such that anytime it's to be discharged from the tanks, it's in its real liquid state without any issues ?

  • 2.What kind of Electrical supply/connections is required for such facility?
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#1

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 9:43 AM

You need electrical connections that meet your local codes, whatever they may be. You should hire an electrical engineer familiar with these codes. They will then need to know the lighting, heating, pumping and other electrical load expectations this plant requires.

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#2

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 9:48 AM

You need to start by furnishing some useful data. Tank dimensions, ambient temperature, viscosity characteristics as the palm oil cools/solidifies, pumping rates, etc. Etc.

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#3

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 10:31 AM

You need to do a soil analyst to make sure the tanks foundation is stable, as well as the tanks are built to earthquake zone standards of the area.

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#4

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 11:51 AM

Since others have also brought up non-electrical concerns despite the assurance of "without any issues", here is another set of concerns.

You're storing a lot of food whether this will be consumed by people or not. Keeping this oil clean and preventing spoilage from bacteria, mold and other vermin should also be a concern. Every oil can burn, electricity brings an ignition source. Don't start a fire. Compartmentation to multiple, smaller individual sizes will minimize the fire control magnitudes needed on hand and allow for maintenance cycles working on one smaller tank at a time instead of your facility being completely offline with one enormous tank.

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#5
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 1:43 PM

‘Without any issues‘,... That’s a wide brush of assumptions, and that’s fine... for now.

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#6

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 2:35 PM

....wow. Just wow.

Are you serious? Hire a consultancy firm to perform this level of design work.

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#7
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 4:18 PM

Best answer of the post so far.

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#8

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 4:19 PM

https://pdf.wecabrio.com/palm-oil-storage-tank-design.pdf

http://www.palmoilfactory.com/tag/palm-oil-storage-tank

http://www.sinoprettech.com/product/palm-oil-storage-tank_22503.html

https://www.oil-refinery.com/storage-systems/edible-oil-storage-tanks/

..."All tanks for solid or semi-solid products should be installed with heating facilities in order to obtain homogenous products when they are transferred or unloaded. Heating coil should be of mild steel for mild steel tanks and of stainless steel for coated and stainless steel tankage. The following means are suitable:

  1. Bare hot water pipes: Heating by hot water (controlled at 80°C) circulated through the coils is the best procedure because it is least likely to cause local overheating.
  2. Bare steam pipes: Heating by steam with pressure up to 1.5 Kg cm-2 gauge (temperature of 127ºC). The heating coils are normally mild steel 5 cm (2”) bare pipes and should rest on supporting legs about 7.5 cm (3”) above the base of the tank. Some operators prefer supporting legs 6” to 12” high. Vertical hairpin coils or side heating coils installed on the tank walls also should be provided. Where no provision exists for mixing the oil, a maximum heating rate of 5ºC/24hrs should be maintained to avoid local overheating at the coil surface. Where mixing is provided with a higher heating rate is permissible. As a guide, a coil area of about 0.1m2 per tonne of tank capacity is required if the fat has to be melted, but 0.05m2 per tonne suffices for heating up purposes. For lagged tanks a smaller coil area is adequate. The total coil length is normally divided into two or more separate coils, of a length to avoid excessive accumulation of steam condensate.
  3. Mixing: When the product is being kept liquid, local overheating is avoided if mixing facilities are provided, preferably by side entry agitators. Alternatively, oil may be re-circulated by pumping from the bottom and returning from the top through a line reaching below the oil surface. Aeration must be avoided. Mixing also reduces sampling problems."...

https://cultofsea.com/tanker/recommended-practices-for-storage-and-transport-of-edible-oils-and-fats/

https://www.palmoilextractionmachine.com/product/palm_oil_press_machine/palm_oil_mill_85.html

https://ti2.com.au/palm-oil-tank-farms-ready-for-digitalization/

http://www.fao.org/input/download/standards/101/CXP_036e_2015.pdf

Storage spec

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#9

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 10:32 PM

Hectare upon hectare of tropical rainforest, with its rich biodiversity, is being destroyed - often without proper approval, or just straight-out illegally, for oil palm plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia.... What are the alternatives?

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#10
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/11/2020 11:37 PM

Better than growing pot or opium....I say let them handle it...You can't expect people to not use their own land to make a living...Maybe they could grow hemp...

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#11
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 12:10 AM

You have obviously never been to Borneo and seen the terrible destruction of the forests, the destruction of wild life, the massive use of fertiliser, the run off of this plus soil into the sea etc etc.

Not sure that the native people of the area - Iban, Bidayuh etc would agree to the destruction of their land for oil palms.

My vote would be for pot or opium - at least it mainly harms people.

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#12
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 1:04 AM

These people are responsible for their own government, I don't see that you have any right to make demands on how the land is used unless you are a citizen of this country...and if that is the case, this is not the place....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borneo

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#16
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 11:18 PM

By destruction, do you mean cultivation? ..because that statement sounds rather biased....ridiculous in fact...

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#13
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 1:16 AM

The rainforest in Borneo is arguably the most biodiverse ecosystem on the planet.... It was also a vast - natural, carbon sink.... But a fair percentage has been lost to the slash-and-burn farming methods of the palm oil industry, and those who fund these destructive practices and 'control' the industry are not the indigenous people.... They would probably prefer to live in harmony with their native flora and fauna.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 2:02 AM

Haha...dream on

..."80% of Malaysia's population and the majority of its industry are concentrated in one third of its land area, the Malay peninsula. In eastern Malaysia the population is 75% rural, and indigenous tribes form a much larger part - 15% in Sabah, and 40% in Sarawak. Some still practice shifting, slash-and-burn cultivation in the forest areas, but state authorities are keen to reduce this, and to exploit the agricultural potential through large scale land development for commercial farming. This has involved consolidating fragmented farm holdings, particularly in 'Native Customary Lands', to form mini-estates. In this way, bodies like the Sarawak Land Development Board have developed 'under-utilized' land for oil palm, rubber, cocoa and tea."...

http://www.new-ag.info/en/country/profile.php?a=865

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#20
In reply to #13

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 6:40 AM

Terra preta,created and used by the native Amazonians thousands of years ago is the natural solution to modern concentrated chemical fertilization techniques.

The soil actually rebuilds and increases itself to stay fertile.

Learn from the ancients,they were very wise.

The Europeans destroyed much of the indigenous populations by diseases and conquest.

Fantastic structures are still being discovered by satellite that reveals an advanced civilization and large cities that are now completely hidden by jungle growth.

Explorers have been within a few yards of the ruins and did not see them.

I have tried to duplicate the mixture in my garden,using crushed brick instead of pottery,and making my own low temp charcoal,composted organic matter and time.

Soil building is a slow process,and requires time for the biomass to flourish,and modern methods do not allow for this factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta#Anthropogenic_roots

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 8:42 AM

Actually, there are grasses that do that, that originated in South America... it actually builds up the soils that’s in a that is of poor quality. where zero nitrogen is needed and it actually adds nitrogen to the soils...

My brother who switched to no till planting a few years ago and planted about 3 acres of some of these heirloom corn,... picked and shelled the Cobs by hand for seed for planting... it’s amazing the yield he’s getting, as well as the saving in fuel and expensive from not having to prepared the soils, where the bottom line is greater then commercial hybrids and conventional till farming.

he was telling me about it, I looked into it,... and found a video, where the University of Wisconsin has a ‘In the Lab’ segment on Public Broadcasting Station. Where they do a variety of of interesting topic hosted by professors. They had a guest speaker. This professor/researchers from France Explained almost very close to what my brother told me.

I believe the lecture was from September 22, 2016 or 2018 it was quite interesting quite interesting,... I couldn’t find the video, they may not have it available. But it did find the article about it.

And if you really serious about conservation, read the article... I’ll look to see if the video is available. It was a great and more in-depth explanation in the video.

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#26
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 1:15 PM

I wouldn't call a society with no technology, advanced....what you're talking about here is subsistence farming, growing just enough food to survive, not really comparable to modern farming...these people probably had an average lifespan of 30 years, drank dirty water, and crapped in a hole...The romanticized portrayal of ancient cultures that is sold to students is far from the reality of living like an animal....try it some time and see how 'not wonderful' it is...

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#28
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/15/2020 7:29 AM

The Amazonians were not primitive,compared to their European counterparts at the time.Their cities were clean and advanced in comparison .

(In Europe they were still dumping their bedpans out of the windows into the streets below.)

They had cities with millions of people,structures of superb design that required advanced mathematical knowledge.

Satellite imagery is revealing hidden structure revealing a very advanced civilization.The jungle has hidden them from plain site,even from only meters away.

The previous theories on their population and scope will have to be rewritten.

They had sustainable agriculture needed to support a population of millions.

The Europeans,esp the Spaniards,brought disease,smallpox for example, for which they had no resistance,and forced them to adapt a tribal life to avoid the plaque in the cities.

If all you know about living off of the land is what you see on naked and afraid,you are not in touch with reality.

Many Southerners lived hand to mouth after the civil war,even in the '50's and 60's.

Outdoor privies,hand pumped water,mules pulling the plows,families with 10 children,because you had to grow your farm hands.

You had to hunt and farm to eat.The thing I remember most about growing up was always being hungry,but I survived.

It gives one an appreciation for modern conveniences,but also instills a confidence in the ability to survive when the modern technology fails;Storms,power failures,etc.

"A country boy can survive."

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/15/2020 5:51 PM

Compared to the Europeans they probably were considered advanced, but that's not saying much...Every society has people that live basically, that is they get along without the best of what society has to offer....I was comparing them with what's available now, as to what was available then....Now I think it's true that the human experience is relative, and that during any period in time there will be people that are happy and content and people that are sad and miserable, so that the actual emotional experience of life will I think be comparable, but the strength and survivability of a society rests with its technology and ability to govern wisely...A truly advanced society is one that endures, for this instills wisdom and knowledge and advances the human experience...

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#30
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/15/2020 8:17 PM

Compared to now,every ancient civilization is primitive,as ours will seem in 400+ years,same as the Amazonians.

Modern farming techniques are depleting the land of nutrients,and more land must be cleared for new crops.

The Amazonians had a sustainable method of farming that is the envy of today's farmers,and scientists are trying to duplicate it today.

Terra Preta is a living growing soil,that increases over time,and actually gets deeper and deeper over the years,converting sterile clay layers into more useful soil.

The rain forest is a closed system,with dying vegetation decomposing and feeding the living.When the trees are removed,the cycle is broken,and the soil soon becomes unproductive for farming.

They used low temperature charcoal,not the kind you put in your grill.;the kind that give off a metallic tinkle when cold and you stir it.

I make this myself.

There is some produced in a campfire,but it is usually around the outer edges.

I am using crushed brick as a replacement for the crushed un-glazed pottery,to give the microorganisms plenty of area to populate and thrive.Bone meal is readily available,as well as composted leaves and kitchen scraps.

Fungi are known to distribute nourishment to the plants that need it the most through the root system.The microbial life underground has a symbiotic relationship with the plants above.

I have not reached the level of Terra Preta yet,but I have seen vast improvements in the yield in my garden.No chemical fertilizers or pesticides.There are earthworms in every shovelful,and their castings are high in phosphates,which give increased yields to blooming plants.Incredible amounts of peppers and tomatoes from only a few plants.

As far as an advanced society,by your definition,insects are millions of years ahead of us,as well the dinosaurs.Ravens and crows are also millennia ahead of us in that regard.

We have much to learn from the things right under our pompous upturned noses and our clad feet.

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#31
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/15/2020 8:45 PM

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#32
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/15/2020 9:33 PM

ah... Nice pumpkin....

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#39
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

11/12/2020 5:45 AM

Pumpkin? "Dat ain't no punkin',boy."

"Dat is a Texas hemorrhoid."

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#34
In reply to #31

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/16/2020 4:44 AM

Looks like one of my cherry tomatoes.

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#15

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/12/2020 8:14 AM

For the electrical portion of a roughly 170,000 m3 or 6 million cubic foot storage facility, you need to plan on a medium voltage, 4,000v to 15,000v service, capable of delivering between 3000 and 8000 kVA, depending on how you plan to heat the oil, and just where the storage facility is located.

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#18
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 12:03 AM

I've been lead on the team that have designed a couple here in Malaysia including the biggest.
Palm oil is tropical so heating for the storage isn't an issue. The main issue is that the tanks farms are generally are a part of the refinery which have a quite large power requirement requirement (I'm not M&E)

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 8:35 AM

How do you mean it's tropical? and heating on storage is not an issue, please clarify?

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#23
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 8:47 AM

Where is Malaysia? What type of climate does Malaysia have?

Where will your tank farm reside? What type of climate will it have?

These are just some of the fundamental details needed to be known for proper engineering design.

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#24
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 9:00 AM

The location of the place is West Africa, Lagos Nigeria

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#25
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 10:58 AM

Two of the four questions asked were rhetorical questions that were intended to make you think. Answering only one of the remaining two questions is a little discouraging.

Food grade palm oil is one of the highly saturated vegetable oils making it semi-solid at 25°C, room temperature. Thus mild heating might be needed to maintain a liquid state for flowing out of a tank. Depending on how warm of a tropical climate (sun exposure) exists at this tank site, heating might not be needed.

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#33
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/16/2020 4:23 AM
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#35
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/17/2020 8:56 PM

You will definitely need heat....

https://tubingchina.com/Palm-Oil-Properties-Temperature-Viscosity-Heat-Capacity-Conductivity-Density-Viscosity.htm

You need to figure out how much heat you need, I would use water based heating system....so you need to calculate losses as well....then the type fuel to be used to heat the water to heat the oil...So the tanks need to be designed for the heating type used...You need to gather a lot of information first....

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#36
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/17/2020 10:16 PM

As JOAT stated earlier, they need a knowledgeable (paid) consultant. The tricky thing for any consultant candidate will be to present just enough information to tantalize a clueless client of their knowledge without giving it away for free.

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#27
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Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 2:33 PM

Besides the fact that we didn’t have a location at the time I wrote this, the fact that your storage was part of a refinery operation may eliminate the need for extra heating, perhaps with short residence times or circulation in the tanks. A storage terminal in an unknown environment needs some additional consideration, the electrical estimate covers the range.

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#17

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/13/2020 8:21 AM

One of the things is the prospect of breaking down the <...150,000metric tonnes...> into smaller aliquots, so that a problem in one of the <...tanks...>, either with its structure or its contents, doesn't affect the rest of it.

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#19

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

10/14/2020 1:00 AM

WARNING! Off Topic POLITICAL COMENT

It sounds like someone is going to make a bunch of money on this (or they wouldn't be doing it). Once the money is made will they assume any responsibility for what is left behind? Will the long term costs be assumed by those who make the most money? Will the benefits be equitably shared to those whose lives will be forever altered?

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#37

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

11/11/2020 9:30 PM

The unrelenting quest for palm oil.... After some not-so-subtle persuasion from the Indonesian security apparatus, a West Papuan 'Judas' took his 30 pieces of silver....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54798452

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#38

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

11/12/2020 5:41 AM

While we are on it,(The genie channel) please tell me how to fly a fighter jet,the proper takeoff and landing procedure,weapons systems,maintenance,missile avoidance systems,the whole bit.It can't be that complicated,I have seen it on you tube.Looks simple to me.

Is there a "Fighter Pilot for Dummies" book available?

I don't want to go through the required training,it is too hard,I just want a simple answer;Like Cliff Notes,except a little more teknikal?

I only need to know a little bit,the rest I can figure out in the air as I go.

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#40

Re: Tank Farms for Palm Oil

11/18/2020 4:47 PM
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