Can We Design A Better Government?

No sweat and no rush - this isn't any fun if you feel obligated. I'll hear from you when you're ready.

Here's a link

http://www.house.gov/paul/constitutiontext.htm

A different colored word that's underlined is a link also, just point & left click

Constitution

If you already knew this, no offense in tended

Garth

Please excuse my brevity here Garth, I've not fully read all comments yet, and it looks like an American 'Custard Pie' fight........

Organization : Democracy ( if we can decide what that is - first past the post is not necessarily the same thing )

Levels : Minimum

Tax : All endeavour should yield something to the community pot. I'd hate to try and understand more than that. If I did I'd be a Politician and not an Engineer.

What is required : You receive what you need and give what you can.

Job Description : Yearly election.

***********

Sorry that's so simplistic and short, but as said I'm short on time and this looks American orientated.

One Question. The right to bear arms. Does that imply every John Doe has the right to own and use a weapon, or does it imply communal use of weaponry to uprise against oppression when need arises as a populaion. The two are not the same.

Bet I got myself in the **** now. Go for it people, I'm not familiar with American politics and sentiment so feel free to enlighten me ( preferably not with a torch).

Actually I was hoping for international input

Every John doe [ex felons excepted] have the right to own a firearm [some local restrictions apply], the right to carry a concealed hand gun has more restrictions.

The argument(s) around this issue, center around the registration process/ requirement.

I thought being over the Atlantic made me international !

What I meant was the 'right to bear arms'. In what spirit was it intended. I thought it was so the Americans could all carry arms and fight off the evil oppressor (ie Brits). It now seems to mean everyone can keep a gun in their house/car. I don't want to tread on sensibilities because of some of the tragedies that have occurred (also in UK and elsewhere), but I wonder if the original intent of that clause has been perverted. ie a change from use of arms on-mass in a political cause, to daily use by individuals. Is that an issue in the States ? I really don't know. No offence is intended here but I'd like to know how Americans see this - gun crime is an increasing problem, yet few realize that at around 1800 it was common practice to carry a fire-arm over here in the UK. It's a bit off topic to the thread, but perhaps also integral to it. Freedom of choice etc. (?)

Hello Kris,

Welcome to the discussion and, like Garth, value your international input. And don't be afraid to offend - honest debate demands that assumptions be challenged!

The 2nd Amendment Right to Bear Arms is certainly an emotional subject both here and abroad. I will attempt to give you a brief synopsis of the issue without climbing on my own personal soapbox.

From my personal readings of the US Constitution, several state constitutions, the Magna Carta, and the Federalist Papers (a collection of published letters written by our founding fathers expounding on the reasoning and intent behind the US Constitution), I believe the founder's intent on this issue was for arms to be used both for personal protection & sporting purposes as well as provide a final defense from tyranny (as expressed by the 2nd Amendment clause "...being necessary to the security of a free State..." [emphasis added]).

The notion of a municipal police force to "serve and protect" is a relatively modern idea. Before that the common practice was to provide for your own security and the common means to do that the world over was to carry a small arm. Indeed, so common was the practice, that a right to armed self defense was not even thought necessary to include in the Constitution. But it is protected none-the-less and was discussed in the Federalist Papers.

There is a growing notion over here that an armed population actually helps reduce violent crime. Numerous statistical studies have been conducted and the data appears to support the idea. In the last several years, more states than not have passed laws to allow citizens to carry concealed firearms. Incidents of improper use have been shockingly low.

Of course, any liberty granted is subject to abuse, and gun ownership is certainly no exception. But when compared to the number of times guns are used by private citizens in the US to save a life or prevent a crime (often without a shot being fired), the incidents of gun violence, while tragic, are amazingly few.

Does that give you a better picture, or just muddy the waters? I would be happy to answer any further questions as impartially as possible.

That's a superb answer CSM . Thank you for the clarity and honesty. The founding fathers had deep insight, and you have convinced me that people have a personal right/responsibility when it comes to bearing arms as given by the Constitution. Our situation is very different in the UK , but somehow it seems to work the same. We try to defend our shores and interests..

With best, Kris. I rarely take as long a time as this looking at at a post.

Hi Kris, and good morning.

As you know, our government at the moment is in deep shit about this cash donor affair! It has now been revealed that the man responsible for the cash, a Mr Abrahams has been found to be dealing in dogy deals before now. But, as Mr Abrahams has pointed out, he is not the bad boy in all this. It is the labour party who never once checked his record!!!! Is there any wonder why the general public don't trust politicians any more?

I for one would never trust a politician as far as I could throw them, not that far actually. I have had dealings with my local politicians for many years, and I have found them all as corrupt as each other. The worst about it all is that their business dealings are always very dodgy, here at least at the local level I know of 5 local politicians have received a lot of money either in cash or kind.

The way to stop this is quite easy, we have existing laws in the UK to prosecute any person guilty of receiving backhanders, especially politicians. But I am afraid to tell you that the local police cannot do anything to stop this sort of thing because they are as guilty as the rest of them!

So what do we do now?

Spencer.

Hi Spencer,

It seems to be a Universal truth that political types get away with anything. That probably extends to most people with power ( Like the old saying about power corrupts and absolute power..etc). Crime gets distorted in a similar fashion so that things the empowered do, don't get classed as 'serious crime'. Rip off a million shareholders and you can get away with it, pinch a sandwich and you get life.

I don't know a solution, but if I ever get me a few million quid I'm retiring to a desolate island !

The only thing that makes a nation is an army. A government does not make a nation, unless that nation has armed people willing to die for it.

From my vantage as working class, the Democrats say, we love you, but we want your guns, and the Republicans say, we hate you, but you can keep your guns.

I never got a motorcycle or a pistol of my own, till I was 40.

To make a government that is better than the one we have, Garthh, in answer to your question, that started this thread, No. We cannot imagine or make a better governmental system than those that have so far been invented.

You can pick one, and then believe in it an then make it work.

Some are better than others over the long haul, but all have been experimented with, and worked for some for a limited amount of time.

What is very significant is Education.

The perversion of Education is Propaganda.

The Madrases, however spelled, is the same as the Catholic School.

For yourself separate the world into friends and enemies.

At the bank they charge you interest on a loan.

They are not your friends.

Used to be they would give you a toaster when you opened an account at the bank, but these days they sell information about whatever you do, and charge you for the paperwork.

When thinking of government think like an atheist, since without God and the threat of Hell the Superstitious and ignorant have no inhibitions when poor and starving.

You really don't have to be smart to be educated.

I have thought about it, and determined that in this day and age all governmental systems possible have been invented. Some are more advanced than others.

Regardless of that judgement, the determining factor is whether or not the people governed believe in the government. The law is not as important as the spirit, of the law.

In general, I am opposed to Theocracy. Maybe I would change my mind about it if there was some nation in conflict with Israel that was all Quakers. However, as a pragmatist, and having some read William James, who emphasized the fragility of Democrazy, I can only say over and over that whatever your national government gets money for, it needs to spend it on schools.

The attacks on schools in Russia and the US and in Great Britain are part of the lessons of the collective unconsciousness and revolve from hatreds and insanities that make us all boiling frogs to not recognize.

Every free man ought to be allowed to carry a defensive weapon.

The nation ought to be united so that the conflict between individual rights, and the imperatives of the nation as a civil society and State, were obviated, and in balance.

Submarines and Space Stations are governments to study. Not too many ignorant people there. Some of them have knives.

I agree with CSM and also compliment his answer. I am curious to know if before the great gun bans in the UK crime was generally stable, increasing, decreasing, than after the bans and confiscations? Also that post-ban the established drug network added guns to their illegal shopping list. I also remember hearing of a farmer that after 3-4 break-ins he either shot an intruder or just threatened him and for his act was jailed. My family originally came from the UK plus I have had an interest in your history and it seems the people were/are a plucky bunch that wouldn't have allowed the loss of the right to self protection. What happened as I think you mentioned earlier that your being absorbed by the EU and I don't think they trust an armed serf.

Thanks for your comments.

I'm not sure at what point owning/carrying handguns became illegal, but in 'ye olde days' it was fine. At present people can still use regulated gun clubs, and anyone with a clean record can own a shotgun. However,you can't just walk around with it, and it must be kept in a locked safe. Most criminals seem to have no problems obtaining weapons (of all sorts) and there is certainly a rise in urban gun crime (usually drug related. The incident with the Farmer is pretty much as I recall it - the guy just got really pissed that he got no Police back up after a series of break ins.

Ah, just found some stuff on UK situation ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

But He's a Texan

Changing avatar theme's?

I haven't seen a partisan stance so far [on this thread]

I only saw a sound bite from the debate

Ron Paul saying cutting taxes is not enough, we have to cut spending!

Any thoughts on immigration?

sort of reminds of the situation w/illegal drugs

the supply of illegal immigrants or drugs can't be stopped, w/out reducing demand!

Permit me to weigh-in. First off, greetings Kris, always nice to have a Brit around. Too bad you can't type with a British accent. English always seems to sound so much nicer when spoken that way. So much for the "off-topic" stuff.

Garth,

I was one of the folks who voted for "W" both times. I had my reservations the second time around, but the alternative was totally unacceptable. He has really been a big dissapointment since the beginning of the second term. I do tend to lean way over on the conservative side and I thought he did too. Guess I gave him too much credit. For what it's worth, I have found with my experience just in my family, that the principles of management of just about any enterprise seem to hold regardless of the scale. As my wife and I continued to have children, the challenge of keeping order and getting everything done didn't really get more difficult once we got past #5. The numbers got bigger but the process was essentially the same. I would think this would also apply to running a country. Sound principles of financial management work the same whether we are dealing with $10 or $10 billion. One thing I think is really needed today is getting rid of the idea that anyone is owed a living. The "entitlements" being funded by all levels of government are out of control. Right there is the money we need to balance the budget. If you cut off the gravy train for the lazy folks, they are going to do one of two things; they will either begin to produce and fend for themselves because their survival demands it, or they will die. The harsh reality of that statement is what spawned these programs in the first place. We don't want to see our neighbor suffer and die when we have the means to help him. The trouble is that what you subsidize you get more of. There just isn't enough accountability at the federal level to keep these programs from being abused. We created mechanisms to prevent abuse in the form of people watching the people, who watch the program and it turns into a bureaucracy that is self perpetuating. It is not in the interest of any organization created to abolish a particular social condition, to actually succeed when the careers of those responsible for fulfilling the mission are dependent on the continued existence of the organization. They don't have any incentive to actually get results!

It would take more time than I have to adequately express my views on the illegal drug and immigration issues. Suffice to say that they, like several other aspects of our modern culture, are symptoms of the root problem of the deteriorating moral fabric of our society. True these problems have always been with us to some degree, but they have become epedemic as we have systematically torn down the moral structure in the name of "freedom". True freedom carries with it personal responsibiltiy for one's actions. It seems that most people today do not want freedom with responsibility, they want freedom from responsibilty. The solutions to the problems are not mysterious, but they will require a whole lot more conviction and fortitude than it seems we collectively possess. We get bogged down over who might get offended by the solution that is obvious, and while trying to find a "sensitive" or "inclusive" answer to the problem that "preserves diversity", it continues to get worse.

I'll climb down off my soapbox now because it's late and it seems like 0400 comes at the same time every morning.

I nearly voted for GHWB the 1st time, but voted liberatarian, since in cali any vote except democrat is symbolic. The retoric about running gov like a business is very enticing! if only they had been true to their word!

I think we should enable people to succeed. I've collected unemployment a couple of times, but then again this a self supporting fund, I've certainly payed much more in than I've drawn out of this system.

The surest way to start or increase an entitlement is to say it's for the children. Children are a privledge not a right!

Proformance based grants & low interest loans, This would be an examples of an enabling stratagy. I think a comprehensive study would find a very good return on investment to society.

A certain amount of support for the elderly & infirm is in the best interest of the community. such support should originate in the community [not the federal level]

The military consumes a disportionate amount of the gdp, in relation to the actual need for such out lays

president Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex, I'm a little pressed for time so I won't provide a link.

The military consumes a disportionate amount of the gdp, in relation to the actual need for such out lays..........

This statement I don't understand. I was under the impression that our military spending level was only around 13% (or 23%?) of the federal budget, I don't remember which, but I do recall that when I heard the actual figure I was amazed that it was so low. I would not consider it a disproportionate amount, especially in light of the fact that defense is one of the primary responsibilities of the federal gov't.

Sorry been away afew days

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig-military-expenditures-dollar-figure

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

A 1/4trillion or so $'s is more than what's required for defence. Adventures in democracy are not defence.

While I agree government spending is way out of control, and we certainly do not get our money's worth in defence spending (mostly due to inefficiencies and mismanagement inherent to a bureaucracy), let me play devil's advocate and ask: how do you decide what dollar figure is appropriate? This sort of sounds like deciding the answer and working backwards to the question. For the sake of argument, say there was zero waste in military spending (purely an academic exercise, I know, but let's see where this goes.) What specific current military operations would you propose eliminating to get the spending to a number you feel is appropriate, and what is that number?

Adventures in democracy [Iraq], is quite the sticky wicket. We've gone & destroyed everything in site & should feel obligated to put things nearly right. We should not be deciding the fate of nations w/out some level of support from w/in the country [affected] & the international community!

How would foreign military aid be classified?

advanced Nuclear weapon research, should be eliminated.

How many [if any] military bases should the us have on foreign soil?

how many $'s /citizen should be allocated to defence, what functions would be included in defense?

Yes, Iraq is certainly an issue. Regardless of the validity of the reasons we went in, you're right, we're there and we have a mess to clean up. I do believe we have the support of a large number of the affected, but don't believe we have any imperative to decide our foreign policy by UN committee. Sixty years after the treaty was signed on the deck of the USS Missouri, we still have a military presence in Japan (although I believe it has finally been substantially reduced in the last few years). Japan is proof that nation building works (maybe too well) and I think an argument could be made that the world economy is immeasurably improved by our efforts there.

Where does any of this cross the line between military operations and foreign aid - I don't know. It's a very grey area. The constitution gives congress pretty broad authority to provide for the nation's defense. It's hard for me to declare any action beyond our borders that enhances our national security as inappropriate. If the Iraq war had been "for oil", I wouldn't have had a problem. A Texaco station in the middle of Baghdad may have done more for national security than establishing democracy in the region, but establishing democracy seems to me to be the moral thing to do, regardless of eventual repercussions.

Why should we eliminate any avenue of weapons research? The last mushroom cloud produced on enemy soil bought a half century of peace and prosperity scarcely seen through all of history. If I could have made the decision (fortunately for us all, I don't get to make it) September 12th, 2001 would have seen a third mushroom cloud in the middle east (even if all it killed was a few goats). It's a matter of showing our resolve as a nation.

As for deciding a dollar per citizen amount to designate toward defense spending, that seems an odd exercise. If the functions are important and appropriate, what is the relevance of dollar per person burden?

A 1/4trillion or so $'s is more than what's required for defence. Adventures in democracy are not defence

Wow! I agree that's a very big number but it fits well within what I feel our national sovereignty is worth.

Where are you coming from?

Adventures in imperialism.... perverting the concept of sovereinty.

the afganies have been fighting for all of recorded history, why should impose our vision of their future? The original mission of "finding Bin Laden" is no more than a pretext today.........

It is good to see this disscussion revived.

Big brother is very much alive & hiding behind the cloak of homeland security

Right here [CR4] we have various instances of censorship in the name of..... I'm not even sure why

In reply to Water Buffalo's posting 102 back in 2007,

He is right on when it comes to numbers, entiltements and control. It has been shown that the controlable sequence for groups, communication clarity, establishments is the fabled numer SEVEN (7)...yes seven.

Beyond this it has been shown by both example and statistically something either gets lost on the way or problems and accidents/incidents/errors occur...then the human reaction is to start blaming someone.

In fact you can trace some of this back to the way Hanibal and some other warring generals/chiefs organized there warring parties...even the Greeks did this with there cities/towns.

Once they got to a certian size...sorry you have to leave and make your own community....back then I believe it was around 2,000 people (can anyone remember there Greek History besides Helen of Troy?).

So bywire/Garth made limiting everything to a set number of years for Bureaucrats before rotating should be ideal....maybe same for some companies?

So back in 2007 Water Buffalo saw the writting, but could we have all seen the resultant of not only Government run wild but also the Financial industry.....wonder how many levels of bureaucarcy there are in each branch of Government (fifedoms) and accountabe to whom overall....back in 2007 it was GW, tricky Dickey and Rumsfeld and some other cronies running the show.

Geoff Daly NH

So you are advocating change for the sake of change?

Term limits are the governmental embodiment of the peter principle.

A guarantee of mediocrity.

You are on the right track, trying to think about scale. how many people do you think should be in a work group. I like 3, but that's not always practicle

Have you read this book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book)

a very pragmatic approach

Post99is doing alright.

1063,.

Schools and tanks.

Patton loves his jeep.

Flift with big wheels and a neutral.

World court relocates to mud pool.

Wife steals rolodex.

Can't make this sh-t up.

It's unbelievable.

Less than brilliant. OKay!

Meds Rule!

Garth,

I do not know the person but have used there SEMCO centifugal pumps for a Pharma job in Sao Paulo,Ro and Brazilia. The company Semco was started in Brazil in early 50's and based in Sao Paulo.

Is highly regarded as employee open...the enginner on our project spoke back at his boss who had recently come from another company but still learning...nothing wrong as we can all learn when done rspectfully, which it sems SEMCO has cultivated.

Very open in doing business, no hidden agenda when all can win some if not all of the companies targeted programs/sales...appears management look beyond the bottom line or needed targets as long as each person does there best to get there...have a profit sharing equal from top to bottom....so all benefit equally

Maybe the US Agencies/Government could learn a REAL lesson or two from SEMCO and also Edward Demming who taught the Japanese to build cars correctly when he was rejected by GM....who learnt the most GM or Toyota?...Maybe even Wall St and other financial indusrty mavens could take a chapter out of SEMCO's and Demmings play book

As one of my old bosses/memtors said "leave your Egos at the front door, listen/learn and be ready for change too succeed or you will just wither, fade away and die".

So being complacent, gets no one anywhere unless forced or bullying, then apathy can and does set in with the others who are not as forceful or bullying. So by working together you get more out of every opportunity...sharing/family and learning by respecting each persons input capability; it all counts as apart of the team, each person contributes to the WHOLE.

Repect and do unto others has been apart of human kind for centuries..we now have seemed to have entered an era of entitlement and me me, my choice and not WE or US.

The modern version of Sodom and Gormorah is evolving in certain areas of society and Government accompanied by arrogrance, greed and deciept...allI believe diametrically apposed to SEMCO's coporate philosophy and environment...which works very well from what I saw 4 years ago not only in Sao Paulo but Rio and Brazilia at companies we were installing process plants with SEMCO..

Geoff Daly NH

The Technocratic Party is born! Raise up the plastic island!

Yes in this time of yearning and need for clean water, let us move the plastic from its natural vinyl home.

It is unfortunate it is submerged and unseen. I know it is there. I've heard of it.

Where really is the picture?

The popularity of bottled water was caused by the plutonium pollution of the reservoirs that fed NYC water supplies after the Chinese above ground atomic bomb tests.

Plastic bottles of water became ubiquitous after 1985, and water in plastic and plastic in water is sensible to consider as extreme since. -Since water is required.

Ocean studies are not as threatening as the studies of life in bays such as Chesapeake Bay. The Ocean is right big and we do not really drink or mingle with it as much.

What doesn't foul a propeller is not much discussed.

A radio transmit of the question to ships by CR4 members is called for, in the absence of a picture.

I do have an opinion that has been informed by what I have heard and read, but I do think it is proper to be open to full evidence, and am appreciative of the request for further evidence.

Kris,

it is now Feb 2010 and seems no one has been here till Garthh pointed me here after my posting on the shipping container postings for finacial culling of the Wall St bonuses.

Yes the UK system has many flaws and this has been seen in many of the satirical TV shows like "yes Minister"...once these indentured Civil Servants are in they are the bureaucrats who really run the show behind the scenes whether anyone wants to agree or not....same here in the US

I have good experience with the shadowy behind the scenes for the civil service in the UK....they destroyed our business...never got to sit face to face with anyone in authority even when we went ot court, always sent a pion who could only report back and forward....even though subpeonas were issued, solictor always had an answer the Bench accepted (happened 19 times before our Barrister and Solicitor made a direct appeal to the Chief Justice..this was also sqaushed evetually as being wasteful).

At least here in the US you can and are able through request/subpeona's etc able to sit face to face with the bureaucrats/agrency heads.

Now one thing President Obama has started was his jousting publically with the Republicans, with the promise of more. Jsut like the Prome Ministers question time in Parliament...which is way to short really, needs to be at least 3 -4 hrs of really open rhetoric....Blair was good..Broen so so.

Now as far as equality and fairness here in the US, lets consider the following:

(A) Term limits for all elected officials..say max 3 terms...technology and times are changing too quickly for people to keep abreast

(B) All campaign financing to be federally controlled...stops the very rich from pushing there agenda...max for state elections say $1 Million , Congressional/Senatorial $5 Million. Then you will get a good cross section of the population knowing they have a possible chance if they elect to go for office...all finnaced from washington....NO outside finacing allowed..PAC money etc.

(C)Ban all "paid register lobbyist nation wide".....maybe except the watch dog groups involved in the environment (Sierra Club, Appalachian, Audubon types who ensure Agency rules/laws are followed)

(D) A complete flat tax on all incomerecieved...10%...no deductions etc...all on reported income, salary (including bonuses or defered compensation)...so if you make $22,000 pr $22,000,000 you pay the same proportinal fair tax....$2,200 and $2,200,000, and the same should apply to corporate taxes....income after expenses leaves a know profit beform any distribution or max 20% for reinvestment in the company (no moving this off shore to another division or moving jobs out either so as to avoid taxation). Right now there is a disproprtationate amount of tax dodges built into the 11,000+ pages of the current Tax code....loop hole after loop hole...Does Bill Gate or Warren Buffet or any one involved in the Financial Industry really pay there fair share...no never is hidden, moved around etc. Yes I know the IRS would suddenly shrink...saves Billions of $$$$ in staff, overhead, storage, printing, LAWYERS, etc and would diminish thre accounting/audit industry to the minimum...plus all the coporate legal begals who have to spin all there words, so no one reading any current finacial report really undrestands the end equation.

(E) Make all Health Care provisions not for PROFIT across the board ...why does the CEO of United Health care need to make $24.8 Million for year 2009 and the Anthem Blue Cross CEo $16.8 Million for year 2008 or anyone who is incharge of running any entity......

We can only try...remembering what JP Morgan said, "he believed that no chief executives (or corporate officers) should earn more than 20 times the wage of the lowest-paid worker. Such executives were likelier to focus on their own wealth than on the health of their companies".

The reckless behavior of executives earning as much as 275 times the average worker's wage has proved JP Morgan right.

So all the more reason for a really strong leadership (Use the Bully Pulpit and keep banging away and do not accept a NO answer for changre) and reduction in outside influences, term limits, Federal election finacining and equitable taxation.

Keep to an agenda like this then the people win and waste is reduced.

Equality among men then can be seen, unlike it is now with the past few years of obscene excess by a few then the collapsing of the global economies by greedy, arrogant, deceitful/deceptive avaricous minority of entitled...supposidly educated people who claimed they knew best at the Casino gambling they undertook....people who used smoke and mirrors to get the way via there obsession of more and more.

Again I worked for a comapny who was on the Board and had to keep making more anf more returns to kepp them happy or if not we will down grade your rating or make a run on the share prices etc...you know aht I mean...no ethics in there dealings even when challenged.

Just a restart for some further thunking .......A real change is needed.

Maybe for some a little radical but can lead to more equality and less Government intrusion and growth?

Geoff Daly NH

Welcome to probably the most overtly political discussion on this forum

A] Term limits have the effect of punshing experience, by the time a politican actually gets good at their job, they're turned out. All elected positions aren't created equally.

B] Financing rules are made to be broken [See Mccain Feingold], Money is not free speech, even the limits you advocate are far too high. There should be a universally recognized areas on TV, Radio, Print, internet & townhall for potential candidates to make their pitches. No outside or personal money involved whatsoever... Bring back the equal time rules..

More later

There should be a universally recognized areas on TV, Radio, Print, internet & townhall for potential candidates to make their pitches. No outside or personal money involved whatsoever... Bring back the equal time rules..

Find your candidacy register in the "Penny Saver"!!!!

Garth,

I agree with your basis on (A) but remember this is politics as we all know it NOW and maybe there are people who can think beyond the political arena by working for the people...just like those in industry, where the results are important along with good leadership....also if they are not comfortable with this number of years then they should not be there or are not qualified to handle the spinning which could occur. Same applies to the confirmed Civil Servants who are really not accountable in many cases to anyone, I have experienced this with some agencies here in NH...failed to follow ther own Rules anf Fed Laws they are to enforce...clean water/air coming out of power plants for example and they got caught by our Local Sierra Club group and they were found at fault (the Governor replaced the Head of the div responsible, within two months of this happening after being informed)

Concerning financing its just got totally out of control.....in NH Craig Benson really bought the governorship and just look at Steve Forbes, the Mayor of NY...all spent millions of there money but some could not in the end stand up to the system of nasty ads/political side swipping...just keeps and allows politics to remain dirty and beyond the regular Joe who might want to be in the field but cannot compete against HUGE war chests.

Good debate if some others chime in.

Geoff

C] I don't see how you can possibly let one group of lobbyists exist & ban the rest? These groups would just abuse their privileged status to everyone detriment

Once again money ≠ free speech

Garth,

the ones who are not really funded by BIG industry are the ones who actually do good and offer protection by a communal watching in and around there states so the permanent bureaucrats are kept inline and not as some agencies pestered by the paid lobbyists of the industries who do and have bypassed the rules and laws...even the government has crossed the line on a number of occassions...e.g. all miliary flight centers do not have to conform to any EPA or OSAH rules....De-Icing is a huge environmental problem in water run-off around facilities contaminating aquifiers with Hazardous Ethylene Glycol and some other nasty stuff, yet civil airports must recover and disposed as per general chemical indusrty standards.

I do not feel they will step out of line if they know the BIG paid mufties are no longer forcing them to be volatile/vitriolic in there responses as they have had to be in some cases.

$3.3 Billion goes a long way to better companies and jobs.

Geoff

that's great, but who get's to decide who the "good one's" are?

When does the cure become worse than the disease

C)Ban all "paid register lobbyist nation wide".....maybe except the watch dog groups involved in the environment (Sierra Club, Appalachian, Audubon types who ensure Agency rules/laws are followed)

Aw puleez!

Guest,

I can see you have never been on the Hill visiting your elected officials or in an agency with out bumping into one of the 35,000 paid lobbyist diddling with the system for there masters bottom line...not yours or mine let alone the "we the people".

Remember the Hill and the agencies work for "we the people" not the paid lobbyists.

Why do you not show yourself or are you a paid lobbyist watching this site in case we get too radical?

Geoff Daly NH

I agree with your depiction of the paid lobbyist having family members whom have had such position and I don't care for the Sierra Club in general either IMHO they're no better than the FDA, farmers and ranchers however are some of our best conservationists.

Mostly good commentary. I'll go with allot of it but please include a rotation of bureaucratic jobs every six years because as previously noted technology changes and our systems should reflect I believe a re-sifting of appointed job descriptions would keep our systems on point.

bwire,

good idea of a rotation every six years...then nothing gets stale or out of wack due too complacency..."I am here for ever so I do not really have to push myself"...put them in a "think tank" afterwards, but say they must get results that are useful/practical not theoretical: max 12 years and a report every year on there groups work.

Could then attract good people who will get things done the right way in the Bureaucracy...go from top to bottom as well.

Geoff Daly NH

E] Precluding profit, doesn't perclude inefficency, waste or greed. We need to have an open sourced system of information technology, applied to health care organization & records.

I can't remember how many times I've signed paperwork allowing my records to be transfered, usually because I switched insurance. I don't think I ever actually chose to switch carriers, my employer usually made the change to save a few bucks... I would be forced to pick a new primary doctor or have to get on the phone & waste a bunch of time, to be allowed to keep the same doctor

This is all organizational stuff, with the whole industry from top to bottom, trying to be as byzintyne as possible, to justify their own existence. health care is a misnomer, the industry is reactive not preventative...

Maybe the only exception to your 10%[which you'll find is not enough] flat tax would be for exectives anyone earning more than $1'000'000, a windfall income tax [90%] as it were. If you really need to make that much money, you need to own the company...

Back to my ever droning lament

the root problem is the notion that organizations deserve the same or enhanced rights [under the law] compared to people

Anarchists only have the one to one level.

Organizational structures are consistent with paid space.

Transactions are to be taxed all at the same rate.

Citizens should be required to have good manners and carry their weapon of choice, and have education for the defense of themselves and their countrymen.

Accurate job descriptions can be written for anyone, by others, or by themselves.

I look forward to your next question.

In this Thread I answer, no. We cannot create a better government.

All governments have been invented.

Democracy is great when there is surplus.

The Technocartic imput you suggested in a private letter fringes on Facisism.

Otherwise you would have expanded on it in the public thread.

All political theories are nothing but theories which work only for nations buttressed by Bureaucrats and Technocarts and the Academics and the Military Elite.

The biggest problem with the governments is that some of them employ corrupt Bureaucrats and Technocrats and Police.

Give everyone a milita number and a defensive nation station and train them to know when and how to use their weapons and you will have a strong nation.

Apply that to the scientists and their problems with asteroids, and nationalism will be diminished.

We really need to personify the germs and the rocks if we are going to get through Mr. Diamond's "bottleneck".

Alright, go ahead, design a government that is fair to everybody! Please hurry up and design something the rich like as much as the poor.

What is it?

YOW

Aren't you fired up!

Just because I tailor my responses, to my audience doesn't make me or my ideas fascist!

I suppose the next derivation will be how can we improve government? & become better citizens!

I've been learning stuff

I still believe we can improve Government, the only avenue I see is positive incremental change!

In the UK we have 'First past the post democracy'. This can lead to some incongruous situations. It does seem to bring a bit of stability even if we don't always all like the Government we have. 'Democracy' is a fickle term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_voting_system

Hi Kris.

You forgot one thing, as of yesterday we do not live in a democracy any more.

Yesterday Gordon Brown signed the EU treaty, so now we cannot even vote for who or which government we have to govern us!!!

A democrasy is run by the people for the people, but now we can expect an EU President, an EU police force and an EU bureaurcracy to govern us???

I and many other like me wanted the promissed referendum on this, but now Gordon Brown has put an end to 1,000 years of sovreignity. This is certainly a change of government, but not for the better.

I refuse to be governed by Brussels, and will go out of my way to cause as much disruption as is deemed necessary to reverse this proccess!!!

Spencer.

Totally agree with you Spencer. I've heard it said that rule from Brussels is not legally enforceable - it's own bureaucracy can be used against it. I'm not sure how true that is , but it will take the buggers a long time to track me down whilst I quietly do my own thing. It bewilders me that our elected leaders are so quick to sell out - 'elect us and we'll give power to somebody else'. *******'s ! I was under the illusion that we elected folk to rule for us, not surrender to some Euro-state type thing. I have no objection to some kind of Euro-collective thing that helps commerce etc, but selling our souls and rights - aghhhhh.

Hi Kris.

But Gordon Brown is not our elected leader!!!!

So really he has no mandate to sign away our sovreignity????

And now I am waiting for the battle cry; "For God, Queen Elisabeth and England"!

Another thing is that he is not even English!!!

I want an Englishman to govern us, not some traitor Scotsman.

Spencer.

If I had a quid for every Scot in Westminster I'd be laughing. Bloody hell - they can vote on English affairs, yet we can't vote on Scottish ones ! Some sort of madnesss is going on. They rattle on about English oppression yet have more power over us than the other way around. As for that Scottish Parliament building fiasco... I like the Scottish people I know, but the politics is mad.

I totally agree with you Kris, I lived up in the far most north westerly corner of Scotland for three years before I came home, and I had a whale of a time with the locals. When the SNP came round looking for our votes the local Scots told them to P*** off.

As you said, their politics stinks, but so do ours!!! The main problem today is that we now have career politicians, both at the central level as well as the local level.

Our local politician went straight from universty into politics. He has never held down a job with the rest of us working people, so how the hell does he know what it is like??? This goes for 99% of our government!!!

I am now a pensioner, and you should see the way they treat us! I worked for 50 years, but my pension was stolen by that bastard Gordon bloody Brown. Now I am to become a servile European servant, no way!!!

Spencer.

A-men spencer, we need to 'out' these ******* . What they do in 'our name' is a crime. Shame probably doesn't work on that sort, but every little helps. I don't know if the 'meek will inherit the Earth' but I'm going to go down shouting to the last. No Euro -superstate is going to work in Etherville !

Kris, Spencer (and other fellow patriots)-

Here's a link to some writings on this side of the water that may (or may not) lend some insight to the situation. Rest assured that many of us are watching your situation with great interest (and empathy).

By the way, how is the American Revolution portrayed in your school history books?

Regards,

CSM

http://archive.patriotpost.us/pub/07-50_Digest/

The American Revolution doesn't get covered much in the average school curriculum here. Probably because we lost out ! It's paradoxical because we usually celebrate disasters like Balaclava, Mafeking, Dunkirk, etc. Most of these we can put a 'spin' on to make them appear as military triumph, but the PR folk must have been off that day. We like Pocahontas and all that early settlement stuff though. Even buried her at Gravesed near London. Up near Fort William in Scotland is a fantastic man-made lake. The guy built it to cheer up his native American wife by planting suitable trees etc. We get told about the 'Boston Tea Party' and how it was a scam by 'European Americans', but that's about it. Oh and we watch The Walton's, but are not convinced that it's typical Americana. Apart from that we have Happy Days, Oprah and a cart load more telly stuff, but our history lessons at school are somewhat lacking.

Hi Kris and CSM.

I learned quite a lot about the history of the USA when I was at school, I can still remember my history teacher asking us to write an essay on the exploits of Lewis & Clark. Kris, did you know that they took with them one of the earliest air rifles, this was a super powerful air rifle that had a .40 cal barrel + an interchangable barrel of .36 cal for shooting game birds.

CSM.

I read your last post and it was extemely enlightening, but here in the UK we have never had to fight for independance since the times of the Norman invation, so therefore we a left with a parliamentary system that is outdated.

What I do find extremely interesting about the founding of the USA, is the fact that they actually revolted against the punitive tax imposed on them by our country. I wish that would happen over here at some point.

Spencer.

What I do find extremely interesting about the founding of the USA, is the fact that they actually revolted against the punitive tax imposed on them by our country. I wish that would happen over here at some point.

I wish it would happen over here again, against OUR OWN government!

crap now they are gonna get me!

Chill the thought police have been given permanent administrative leave....

Just don't voice opinions of air wolf hunting etc..

all in preparation for 2012 when the governments of the united earth reveal the truth to the populace

Tell us more o cryptic guest?

Please register!

Here is an example of how to improve the efficency of government organizations

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/535956/?sc=bwhn

"Contrary to the performance literature that claims a strong tie between stable leadership and performance, new leaders' willingness to take risks for new projects with fresh perspectives, rather than their years of experience, decided the success of innovation implementation," the researchers found.

Actually we in US of A can readily discern this willingness to take risks for new projects with fresh perspectives in our current executive branch and democratic congress. It is however the lack of experience which is glaring in respect to the ineffectiveness realized.

This is just your scary version right??

Shed Man Thoughts:

Answers to questions: 3 levels Citizens, Titled Citizens with jobs in the Government, and those that do both.

Transactions, buying and selling are to be taxed. No cash allowed, unless you buy it, thereby allowing for tax on secret or underground economy.

Citizens are required to defend the nation, individually, and as a group.

Citizens are required to learn to read, at the very least, but overall citizens will be both educated and educators.

Accurate job descriptions can be written for the "administrators" ie. bureaucrats and technocrats.

Let us go further now? What should be legal, and what should be illegial?

What jobs such as Pilot, should require Certifications, and what ought not require anything other than willingness to perform for pay?

What should determine citizenship?

.......No cash allowed, unless you buy it,....

Buy it with what??! Exactly what means of exchange would be used, and who would administer the accounting and how would they be kept accountable? There is no provision for a free market to function if there is no cash. A better solution would be to go back to the idea that the government is to perform those functions for which it was designed, and then follow a taxation program that allows the means for performing those functions. If a citizen or group of citizens think that further services are needed, then they are to privately come up with a way to fund or otherwise support those services. If there is a demand then there will be a way to meet that demand through the free market.

And a return to a gold standard would not be such a bad thing either.

I don't think anyone could exist purely with LETs, but do you have such schemes in the USA ? http://www.letslinkuk.org/

Barter systems have their own little kinks to work out. How do you compare apples to pears to peaches to oranges to say.......pork chops?? It can be managed, but it's a little more complicated than just having one medium of exchange that all can quantify in a way that's relative to their own lifestyle. Also there is a lot more opportunity for the unscrupulous to take advantage of other people's ignorance. How do you keep track of just how much every given product or service is worth compared to another? It's better if everything is somehow tied back to some uniform standard like.......(What was that you said, CSM?............) Oh, yeah;.....the gold standard. I'm no economist, but I think that would be better.

LET's are not exactly the same as barter in the usual sense. People are free to set a price in LETs for whatever service or product they offer. All can then exchanged by use of these as a common medium. The difference may seem slight, but it negates trying to exchange (eg) me doing some electrical work for one person then wanting to buy groceries for another and using a suckling pig as 'currency'. The LETs are transfered 'on paper' and so function much like money. Least-ways that's how I think it works. Local communities tend to have their own brand of LET, and so it sounds like you'd be limited to doing transfers with other people locally. I've never seen such systems advertised openly over here, but many places seem to have them. Not sure how the taxman tries to get his slice of the action. A reasonable comparison might be with 'Linden' that are used as currency in that weird virtual thing Second Life. I'll know I'm bored if I ever visit Second Life !

Good morning Kris.

From 1999 to 2004 I lived in the small commune "Balnakeil" in the far north west of Scotland, you cannot travel further north and west that this on mainland Britain!!!

This commune was built up of atisans, there were artists, ceramic makers, wood carvers, copper smiths and myself, I cut and polish precious stones and put them into silver jewellery. There was also two small holdings which were divided into the vegetable growers and the meat producers. 7 nationalities were represented!

Noth west Sutherland is the last wilderness of Europe and many visitors and tourists from all over the world came to visit us. We traded with them for hard cash, but for the members of the commune we had a points system of bartering. For example, someone would ask me to make them a piece of jewellery for them as a present. For this I would exchange for say 30kilos of potato's, or 5 chickens, when you joined this community you were advised to go to one of there council meetings, there you would bargain with them for the amount of credits your work was worth.

The commune was run on a proper democratic basis, anyone found to be a thief was imediately banned, two waring people were called before the council and told in no uncertain terms to make up or get out! It must be said that the council consisted of everyone in the commune.

Spencer.

Hi Spencer ,

That sounds pretty cool. I guess you need the right balance of enterprises for this type of thing to work, and some tourist hard cash coming in is probably a must ( unless you can live off-grid etc). I like some of the modern conveniences too much to live that way, but admire those who do.

I especially like your jewellery enterprise. I enjoy collecting rocks (even though I'm rubbish at identifying them) and have long thought about investing in a diamond saw for cutting them. Kent doesn't have the right geology to find nice agates and stuff, though I've seen some cool amonites that were split to reveal crystallization of the chambers within. Areas like Scotland seem much better for this sort of thing. One day I'd like to retire up Scotland way - I love the scenery and hospitality. Smaller villages have a sense of community that just doesn't exist in towns, and that translates into people taking responsibility for things. The simple stuff like knowing all the neighbours, helping each out and so on.

Thanks for the information Spencer.

Kris

Hi Kris.

Here is my email address; garnets@blueyounder.co.uk Send me a line and I will send you some photo's of what I have found in the way of minerals and gemstones in Scotland.

Spencer.

Thanks Spencer, I'll get one sent off .

Kris

Just to let people know, I had a most excellent contact with Spencer on the matter. Total respect to you Spencer, and many thanks !

Kris.

I think transcendian is refering to a consumption tax

no taxes on earnings, savings or investment.

just taxes on the $'s you spend

Garthh is right about what I was envisaging as he called consumption tax.

My theories are designed for airport communities, or island communities.

It was apropos that LET communities were referanced.

I lived in Rochdale College in Toronto in 1971 & 72 working as a Security Guard, and editing a paper (Ghetto News). Rochdale dollars were used for internal transactions.

Experiences at Rochdale have had strong influences on my views.

I often go days without using any cash, using only my bank card and their have been times when I used no bank and only used travelers checks.

The thing about governmental systems is that they work according to the extent they are supported by their citizens.

Just because I am an Anarchist, it doesn't mean I do not want control of what happens on my airports. My countries money is good in my country creates my country in tandem with control of force.

It is practical for a soverign airport citystate to require currency exchange for those doing transactions on its land. What they get for that is a secure and peaceful place to do their business. As a Country then Transcendia becomes also a Company providing the Service of Security.

In so far as in the real world, force is required on a constant basis to keep the peace, the goal of simply in unison "keeping the peace" the citizens need at the least to all agree, that all laws conform more to the spirit of the law, than to any particular laws.

I have addressed my thoughts concerning weapons in earlier posts. Essentially every actual citizen shall be required to have some weapon either lethal or non-lethal so as to aid in the general defense of the peace. Youngsters or drunks might be best to only be allowed to carry non lethal weapons.

My experiences traveling and living in different States of the US, and Canada have given me a dim view of States Rights. Like so many things they are not all good, or all bad, and in either case; good up to a point.

Keeping track of all of the different laws from State to State, and County to County is almost not humanly possible. In the case of the simple automobile the variety of laws and taxes that govern its use and taxation from State to State, I regard as insane in this day of Interstate Highways and the need for many to live where they have a job, and be willing and able to move to maintain that work.

computer malfunctioning, do not update.

I often go days without using any cash, using only my bank card and their have been times when I used no bank and only used travelers checks.

Does this worry other folk as much as me ? We are all being propelled into a situation where we must be a name and number on somebodies computer. I like having hard coinage in my pocket to pay for minor things. It's impossible (almost) to avoid monitored transactions for big stuff, but I feel something creepy is happening. Try travelling in London without an 'Oyster Card'. The return on that kind of stuff is pathetic. Likewise look at the number of retailers who try to induce folk to use 'loyalty cards'. All this info can be used to monitor our whereabouts and shopping habits. Worrying I think. All the worse because major organizations (especially governments) have an appalling track record in protecting data security. It's probably inevitable , but I'm not running head first into it willingly. A cashless society will effectively disenfranchise the poor. 10 or 20 years time and we will all lament the changes taking place. Trust major organizations with my data ? I'd suffer less risk sticking my head in the oven.