Wood Fiber: the Ultimate Engineering structural material: any takers?

Hello pvhramani,

The singular problem with wood fibre is that it is a natural product, thus the properties vary greatly.

Here in New Zealand we use a timber tree which is actually classified as a World Heritage Rare Tree, because it grows naturally in only two small areas of the world.

The tree is called "Monterey Pine" in its native place, here called "Pinus Radiata" where millions of acres have been planted in plantation style, and the wood is regularly harvested for timber use of all kinds, even being exported to other countries.

The Pinus Radiata seeds were carefully selected almost 100 years ago, and extensive further seed selection and hand pollination has taken place over the last 80 years in New Zealand.

I do note that in China, bamboo has been harvested for some 4,000 years, and likewise the varieties for propagation have been carefully monitored for some 2,500 years there.

Bamboo is regularly used in China for scaffolding up to 60 stories in height, because it is cheaper, faster to assemble, lighter, and a renewable resource.

The problem with using timber for any length of time, is insect attack: Borers, termites and the like chew away at any structure, as they were designed to do, to break down non-living timber.

Many insects and organisms attack the living trees also.

Fungi and moulds also decay unprotected wood extremely rapidly.

Here in New Zealand we have used toxic chemical treatments, to "preserve" the timber against decay - but even then, the preservative chemicals leach out over time....

Hello Spark!

You have explained at length about your New Zealand Radiata pine, about which we have heard. Also, your point that wood differs in basic properties is a scientific fact.

Although in its natural form these materials are prone to certain attacks, with the great advances in Engineering Composites, this problem is surmounted.

This writer has been working on certain Composites formulations, and on the basis of certain lab level tests, some very interesting observations have been made:

(1) Hybridized Wood/ natural Fiber Polymer Composites (H-NFPC) could be in the sp.gr range of 0.75 to 1.15

(2) While the sp. tensile strength of steel is about 580 to 3, 000 (depending on mild steel, alloy steels, special steels etc), that of H-NFPC is about 1, 200 (the dimensional factors of sp.ten str are not mentioned here)

(3) A derived property such as Equivalent Weight Rigidity (in Kg_f-cm²) is still more interesting: all steels = 175, 000; cast Al alloys = 1, 495, 000; cast Mg alloy = 3, 700, 000; S-Glass Epoxy = 2, 730, 000; C-Epoxy = 13, 975, 000; H-NFPC = 7, 550, 000.

Without going into the detailed subject matter on Derived properties etc, it is noted that in many structural applications the equivalent rigidity section in H-NFPC would weigh as low as about 30% of the steel section. This is a great advantage from the point of view of weight, cost, energy and various other manufacturing and usage aspects.

The idea of initiating this discussion is to create a forum of engineers who are interested in this, so that many more developments could be made, from the present infinitesimal level.

This writer wishes to hear more on these from other engineers who have done works in Wood/ Natural Fiber engineered products/ systems.

You don't need to convince an Englishman that wood is a superb engineering material.

Have you not heard of the wooden walls of Egland? These were the oak built ships which formed the Navy for many years and kept France, Spain (and a few others) at bay!

Not to mention the Longbow... a natural composite.

Bamboo, fantastic stuff.

I'm surprised there are not more composite materials made from plant products inspired by the natural world. Grasses, honeycombs and suchlike are all wonderful structures which we exploit to some extent, but I'm sure we could do more.

Del

Hi Del

Your point:

"I'm surprised there are not more composite materials made from plant products inspired by the natural world. Grasses, honeycombs and suchlike are all wonderful structures which we exploit to some extent, but I'm sure we could do more."

... could be the starting point for our further discussion ... and this in fact is the very "theme" here

From an engineering point of view, the strength-weight-economics of wood/ wood fiber based composite could be advantageously used in many engineering structural applications. Hitherto most wood/ wood fiber composite systems have been concentrating on the "cheapness" aspect. And this has resulted in the WPC (Wood Plastic Composites) wherein wood flour/ wood fiber are combined with some Thermoplastic materials (PP, HDPE, PVC) to produce non-structural product systems - Roofing Shingles, Extruded profiles for Furniture parts, Interior panel systems ...

As mentioned in an earlier thread here, Hybrid Wood Fiber Composites (which is better named as Hybrid Natural Fiber Composites ... H-NFPC, to connote a larger group) could be developed to replace structural steel in many applications, including Auto Bodies/ Roofing Structures/ Ship Building ... But, while the "bench-level" works done so far have given sufficient indications of the great potentials, more works need to be done to carry forward and arrive at universally acceptable application levels

It is the intention of this writer to initiate discussions and more significant works, to go forward from the present rudimentary level, through these columns

There are many coconut trees in Indonesia, however for timber-pulp-paper use the most favorable species is probably Acacia Mangium. Coconuts by themselves have the husk bi-product which is sought after for making bio-coal and also coir for different industries as ropes, twine, peat, fillers etc. The tree itself may have a lifespan of 60 years, while Acacia Mangium reaches maturity in just 10. However, with plantations for timber-pulp-paper, everything must be done in a large scale (above 100,000ha) or else it wouldn't be economically viable. Does this sound about right? Hmm.

Hi heath

Greetings, and nice to know you are from Indonesia, which has about 80, 000 Km of coast line - the world's largest archipelago region (comprising more than 17, 500 islands - all beautiful tropical). The estimated coconut trees available on the 60 year cycle could be about 15 million tons, which is about 15% of the world estimate!

It is a paradox that such huge resources are NOT converted into Engineering Composites, although most nations (including India, where this writer lives) have "Coconut Development Boards".

The writer IS working on new Engineering Composites (with coconut tree materials being used among others). As the discussion progresses, we shall try to introduce some of those in detail

At this point, the important matter is that based on your expression:

"However, with plantations for timber-pulp-paper, everything must be done in a large scale (above 100,000ha) or else it wouldn't be economically viable. Does this sound about right?."

Hitherto almost all manufacturing technologies have tried to develop only so-called "high-volume mass production" systems, and these would need huge operations at a single point, indiscriminately exploiting meager resources. In fact, digressing a bit from our immediate topic, the writer wishes to mention that one of the biggest reason for the world's present day catastrophic environmental problems has been due to these "high-volume mass production" technologies. However, this writer IS working on various "low volume-high-economic" level systems wherein the production systems could be based on relatively smaller operations. The "mass production technology" - under development - in H-NFPC (please see the earlier threads) - would also be on these lines: "low volume-high-economic"

This discussion initiative is to kindle further interest in the groups of engineers to come forward with various ideas/ concepts/ themes/ proposals to make this HAPPEN...where you could also be actively involved

This is one thread I will be sure to follow.

As a processor, used CAB materials for many years - component of this clear plastic is the cellular wall of wood fiber - it is an 'organic' plastic - the issue with this one in at least one application - bird feeder tubes was that squirrels loved it - to the extent that they enjoyed chewing on these 'clear trees'.

Much work and effort going into wood composite / plastic materials for structural forms that have the best of both properties, the weatherability on the organic elements is still an issue, but improving.

Agree; wood, or near-wood comes from a great many easy to harvest sources - rice hulls, sugar cane, etc. - so much biomass as to be enough to build many many things - probably easier to focus on structural elements that can be inexpensively replaced when mother nature does her worst - small single family structures etc - much work to be done to produce profiles and wall panels for shelter etc. -

looking forward to the challenges and opportunities in this forum -

Jim

It is clear, from viewing all the comments made to pvhramani's original on wood fibers seem to all agree that wood has served us well in our history. As one commented, the British wooden wall served England well. But in time, wood and the sail we replaced by steel and steam.

The only reason wood is used at all, today, is its cost and convenience for the individual. As pointed out, bamboo is used for scaffolding in China for its strength to weight, ease of use, and cost. In other parts of the world other natural materials are used with equal success. The one fly in the ointment is as the population of the world increases, the demand for these natural materials also increases. It has reached the point that, despite tree farming and other conservation measures, these natural resources are still being depleted. This is especially true with the tropical rain forests, where the natural ecosystem is being exploited for lumber and poorly practiced agriculture that further depletes the forest's ability to regenerate itself as a habitat for many endangered species of plants and animals.

As our knowledge of materials processes, plastics and composites are increasingly being used for a number of building and construction purposes. Certain composites are a key component of high performance aircraft and space vehicles. The composites are slowly making their way into the private sector, too, for use in automobiles and recreation vehicles such and boats and other off-road toys. It is hoped, in time that these materials might work their way down to the individual to replace his dependence on wood and other natural fibers used for shelter, cooking and heat. Although these composites would solve a multitude of problems for the individual, such as resistance to rot and decay, resistance to fire and storm damage, and resistance to teh molds and bacteria that cause health problems, the move to these materials will never be accepted until they are made readily available to the people who need them at a cost that will entice him to abandon the traditional materials and ways of life. Wood has served man for eons, the question is, how can we substitute a new material for wood in man's mind and heart?

There must soon be a resolution at Security Council-UNO advising all nations : to stop using of Timber in panellings,Furniture,handles,---anything at all -- for next 50 years. Meanwhile humanity can get by with the only Under-attentioned,Under-Utilized,Most-available -for -all among the Renewable Resources for Humanity---BAMBOO.

If Governments cannot----- CR4 should do this excercise.

My Website http://www.assambambooworld.com ( needing total redrafting) could be the starting point. CR4 talked about Bamboo in Boat/Yachtbuilding already. Yellowcat can tell us a thing or two again.

It is not to mandate the abolishment of wood or any other material used today for construction or energy, but rather to reduce the use of these materials to an acceptable level. Tree die naturally and produce methane gas and carbon dioxide as they decay and fertilize the earth for new tree growth. Tree shed their leaves naturally and produce methane and carbon dioxide as they decay and fertilize the earth for new tree growth. The lumber (and bamboo) we use in building our homes decays naturally (or is fed upon by insects) and produce methane, carbon dioxide, and provides fertilizer for our gardens. The APIX Project, http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~chtank/apix.html, conceived within CR4, is designed to take full advantage of these and many more natural processes. When we wish to correct our past sins, we must use common sense and not comments new sins to cover the old. Bamboo is an excellent tool, but still, to attempt to replace lumber with bamboo would very quickly destroy the whole of all bamboo growth in the entire world, just as the use of lumber is doing to our forests today. Stone, concrete, metals, and plastics can be recycled in the near term, plants such as trees and even bamboo as plants can be recycled in the distant term. It takes time and space to regrow sufficient quantities of each, a several years and much space for bamboo and many years much space for trees.

Hi all

It is time we got down to some real engineering analyses. here is a chart of certain engineering properties that this writer could arrive at, through certain bench-level developments and comparative studies:

If the diagram does not give a clear idea, the following link would help you to download the diagram here:

http://www.adrive.com/public/0ee91b3e8455b4850ad4d17f8a73118235550cb0782b98e58a0572602c0ee4d1.html

Without going into the detailed analyses of the different property criteria, we shall note that the "derived properties" presented within the "orange" background area are the specific engineering properties that need to be considered as "prima-facie" comparative properties for selection. Each of these properties is specific derived property criterion, which compares the derived values on the basis of "equivalent weight" factor. For example, if we look at EQUIVALENT WEIGHT SECTION – a derived property based on what we call "equivalent weight section area", on a scale 0f 1 cm x 1 cm section for steel (the 1 cm "top" width remaining same for all other materials), the corresponding section area for H-NFPC would be 9.2353 cm.

The engineering advantage is easily understood - the H-NFPC system would have very high strength/ rigidity advantage at the equivalent weight section, and design engineers could therefore reduce the section area to match the rigidity of steel. In practice this would mean that an equivalent rigidity section in H-NFPC would be as low as one-third in weight with respect to steel.

Hi chtank

Hope you have been able to study the engineering aspects of NFPC/ H-NFPC, as presented above, which helps us to understand the overall superiority of these composites to traditional materials. Further, it should also be noted that inasmuch as plastics are being molded and converted into many shapes/ sizes and froms through various engineering processes, these NFPC composites also could be easily converted.

The following illustrations are based on some works being undertaken by this writer.

A major factor to be understood is that the initial raw materials in the form of fibers are NOT based on FOREST Timber or other depleting specie, but are based on common plantation timber such as Fallen Coconut/ Palm trees, Rubber Trees, Banana Tree stems, and the like. These materials, as already mentioned in an earlier thread are available world over to an extent of over 100 million tons ... and there are so many such such "wastes species" all over the world ... every one of them being excellent to be converted this way

Through these columns, it is the idea of this writer to not only kindle mere "chat interests" but also organize for further works to be done

Presently these works are being undertaken in the closed quarters of some institutions. But these open forum discussions are needed for greater thrusts and growth

Bagasse is the fiber left over when the juice is squeezed out of sugar cane, and it is normally regarded as waste. An acquaintance of mine, Eric Cottell, built a factory on a Caribbean island to make building panels from bagasse. The government decided to nationalize the business, so he locked the door and walked away from it, taking his expertise with him. The factory, I was told, made no more houses.

Scientists, Engineers, Doctors, Artists, Thinkers ... et.all ... like any normal humans would have to pass through the trials and tribulations of society's turmoils. Yet, the SPIRIT of innovation and development still thrives. And, it is this indomitable "spirit" that propels and enhances the entire human civilization, and many a thinker has said about this in so many words:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited whereas imagination stretches and embraces the whole universe" - Dr Albert Einstein

Making a fast buck here and there; loosing it some other place ... are part of the game; but innovations, inventions, and the spirit of finding a better mouse trap would continue and drive the civilizations to higher levels.

While this writer appreciates the fact of frustration and ignominy of esbuck's friend, when the government decided to "own" the enterprise based on his friend's innovation, it is NOT clear what needs to be learnt here as far as engineering and development of new devices and schemes are concerned.

I have to agree with you pvhramani. Down here in the Dom. Rep. there are several types of palm/coconut trees, all that yield excellent building material. The forces of nature have a habit of controlling the tree population by striking them with lightning and knocking the tops off.(makes great homes for woodpeckers) Most houses in the farm areas are made from palm and have been and will be standing long after i'm gone!

MUKULMAHANT's frustration is not negative in outlook, but this writer would opine that it is negative in operational method! "There must soon be a resolution at Security Council-UNO advising all nations : to stop using of Timber in panellings,Furniture,handles,---anything at all -- for next 50 years. Meanwhile humanity can get by with the only Under-attentioned, Under-Utilized,Most-available -for -all among the Renewable Resources for Humanity—BAMBOO."

Let's contrast the above "strong" view with that of DGCYS's observation: "Down here in the Dom. Rep. there are several types of palm/coconut trees, all that yield excellent building material. The forces of nature have a habit of controlling the tree population by striking them with lightning and knocking the tops off....... Most houses in the farm areas are made from palm and have been and will be standing long after i'm gone!"

It is nice to see that the "Discussions" do bring out various view points and observations, all of which would help us arrive at practical and pragmatic solutions to the problem of "appropriate and sustainable engineering materials".

Here, we need to look at the apt statement of chtank: "It is not to mandate the abolishment of wood or any other material used today for construction or energy, but rather to reduce the use of these materials to an acceptable level."

We may go a step further in noting the following:

1. In the light of extraordinary increases in the levels of CO2 and GHG in the atmosphere, and also based on the fact that a huge amount of Heat is being spewed into the atmosphere by all Combustion processes, there is a dire need to look at the materials engineering needs of the world in a more benign fashion. While the indiscriminate destruction of forests for both materials and fuel destroy not only the environment but also creates CO2 and heat output levels increases, humanity would have to find some answers for the NEED, within available resources.
2. New and excellent engineering materials such as high strength glass fibers, Aromid fibers, Boron fibers, Carbon fibers and Whiskers have revolutionized modern materials engineering through Advanced Engineering Composites. But these are as much "energy guzzlers" as the Internal Combustion engines of Power generation and propulsion systems.
3. The traditional Engineering materials such as Steel, Aluminum, Magnesium, Titanium, Glass, Ceramics and Wood have their own shares of environmental damage actions as well as "heat" inputs into the atmosphere; wood alone differing in the latter aspect of heat.
4. When we say that wood fiber could be the ultimate engineering material, our attempt here is NOT to support the indiscriminate felling and destruction of the genuine and virgin forests for our wood needs, but here we look at the natural and man made plantation timber and other such wood resources.
5. One striking feature of all Plantation/ Agriculture timber/ plantation vegetation materials (Coconut trees, Banana trees, Silver Oak, Eucalyptus, Palm trees ... and many more) is that all these materials are there for us as long as humans use agriculture resources for food and other NEEDS. And, using materials such as fallen/ old aged Coconut trees, fallen Banana trees, silviculture based felled Silver Oak trees and the like could be the automatic answer to at least part of our materials engineering problems.

Let us look at an example:

The illustration here is a bunch of Coconut Leaf splinters that form the "ribs" for the leaf portion in the fronds. It is interesting to observe (based on a personal study of the writer, using rudimentary systems) that the Coconut leaf splinter seem to have the following excellent engineering properties:

• Sp.gr .............................. 0.45 to 0.55

• Tensile strength ............... 6000 Kg/ cm² to 10, 000 Kg/ cm²
• Modulus .......................... > 190, 000 Kg/ cm²
• Elongation at break .......... > 8%
  (Note: No accuracy is claimed as these results are based on rudimentary systems of tests in-house)

A rough estimate of the availbaility of these coconut tree leaf splinters is: over ONE MILLION tons in India alone! The writer is now working on certain possible developments in Wood Fiber Composites, using various such RNEWABLE materials, which could create Composites that would even compete with exotic Advanced fiber composites using high strength glass fibers, Aromid fibers and Carbon fibers!

Hello Pvhramani, I am new to the CR4 site, lacking in any engineering status but pride myself as an inventor with a "What if" mind with patents. I agree whole heartily with your views and thinking. You are 'dead on' and answers are closer than most think in the construction industry. I am very interested in H-NFPC using WPC as a binder for a thin non-structural panels as a finishing surface that is environmentally friendly. A proprietary structural portion has already been tested and is appropriate and sustainable. It is very green with large reductions of CO2 and is highly renewable. Using organic plastic mixed with grassy fibers, rice hulls, wheat grass, etc. that are available here in the US will further lessen our foot print. And as the system take hold and grows, will leave our wood forest to grow. The CR4 site is a wealth of information and I am excited to have found it. Any advice or direction to information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Hello mac5777

Greetings and welcome!

Your ideas and development works are interesting subjects It is not clear what you mean by "... am very interested in H-NFPC using WPC as a binder for a thin non-structural panels as a finishing surface that is environmentally friendly."

Best wishes

pvhramani

Hi Pvhramani, I wish I can say more at this time that would better describe this new system. What I am looking for is a replacement, in the US, for logging the peeler log layers, as in plywood. This will enhance our current CO2 reduction to even greater levels. Looking for a thin, non structural layer of wheat grass, rice hulls, throw away bamboo bio-mass or any other organic materials that can be glued, environmentally safe, into thin sheets to be laminated, as a finish layer. The demand for our system may help in developing a laminate product if we show there is a ready market for it. Wheat grass seems to be what is available but only in thicker panels as a stand along, not as a thinner laminate. I know this is not much information but we are not ready for public viewing. Thanks for your interest!

Hi mac5777

You seem to hit up on an interesting idea/ concept that would totally dispense off with the "Face Veneers" in various commercial Plywood Boards.

Yes! you are indeed absolutely right when stating, " This will enhance our current CO2 reduction to even greater levels"

We could go a step further in stating that such modified "Skins" for Plywood systems or Plywood Substitutes are currently needed, to not only mitigate the environmental/ ecological degradations but we also need these as Alternate Engineering Materials - as "stand alone" materials of construction.

The H-NFPC that is being developed by a New World level "Resource Conservation and Resources Recycling" company under formation - AGRO-BIOGENICS, would soon be setting up a Pilot Module Plant for the products in question. The said company is in fact an off-shoot of the interactions that had its origin through this CR4 forum, and would be an OPEN SOURCE Engineering group:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/97/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/4149/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes-Mission-

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~chtank/apix.htm

More details would soon be published ... Please watch on these pages/ discussions

Best wishes

pvhramani

Who has considered the use of corn stover? At two harvests a year, and hundreds of thousands of acres in production, an excellent Corn Plastic Composite