EC Autos vs ICE Autos

Why would they shut down...all they need to do is install some chargers...they already have the property and charging a vehicle takes a lot longer than filling the gas tank...we've already seen gas stations adding food services, coffee shops, gift shops and other amenities...

And some people are worried about cell phones...

It's only a matter of time before they start adding bars and people will end up spending hours there and end up getting towed home....

Bob's Charging Station and Bar, Grill and towing service....Your full service stop...

You only have to two them half-way home while they use re-gen to re-charge their batteries.

I had a 2500HD 3/4 ton truck with cloth seats... when ever I fueled up, I always had to discharge myself of static build up before I reached for the gas hose. This was the only vehicle that it has happen to me.

But, when I’m filling, I rarely go back inside the truck while filling.

I used to own an EV, what in Europe we call a 'van', a light goods vehicle. Early model Citroen Berlingo with low range. I used it for commuting and it was brilliant.

Here's the difference between EV recharging and ICE recharging: ICE recharging is an activity in itself, EV recharging is an ancillary activity. I saved time because I wasn't driving to petrol stations and queuing up to fill up. In actual 'time out of my life' terms the EV took up less recharging time than my ICE drive.
The Ev is plugged in at home, recharging while I'm watching TV, sleeping, sitting in the garden or whatever. It's recharging in the car park while I'm at work. In the supermarket while I'm shopping. I didn't make any journey specifically to recharge and that's the big difference. With a modern ICE I can stop at the motorway service station, plug in my car, and by the time I've come back to it after using the toilets and buying a takeaway Starbucks there's near enough 200 miles extra in the battery. Unplug, drive away. Extra time out of my life - zero.

Ach, "with a modern EV..." not "with a modern ICE". Fast fingers, slow brain....

Any <...reasonable...> business would take advantage of the new opportunities afforded by <...electric vehicles...>.

Therefore the question is nonsense.

Only the pumps will change.

And the time to charge.

That sounds like advocacy for "business as usual".

What I expected to happen with electric vehicles was swappable battery packs to be designed into electric vehicles. A used but freshly charged pack could be swapped (for a fee) at multiple points in a long trip at what was once gasoline stations. That doesn't seem to be the engineering path being taken. This might be because battery technology is changing so fast that no standard, swappable package design is practical.

I also thought another leap in supercapacitor power density was just around the corner. This might have solved rapid charging times, dramatically reduced charging power loss and provide virtually limitless charge/discharge lifetimes. That fantasy did not happen, also.

I was curious as to how the oil companies encouraged disparate charging standards among companies producing EV's ?

Because it was the oil companies that lobbied for the national standards all fueling stations operate by in the US. These are some very smart folks and never miss an opportunity to manipulate the market.

Think Colonial pipeline. There was nothing wrong with the pipeline or its control system. The hack attacked the billing dept. But Colonial shut it down anyway, because, prices hikes + panic buying = more money. Simple.

Never attribute to malice that which can easily be explained by greed.

A part of me likes the sinister idea that the oil companies are slowing down the development of electric vehicles. I would not be surprised if in some isolated cases that actually happened. However, I think even Machiavelli would doubt oil companies are stifling electric vehicle development.

You've never read "The Smartest Guys in the Room" have you?

BTW, Conspiracies ARE real and DO happen.

FRONTLINE | Trump's American Carnage | Season 2021 | Episode 3 | PBS

Haha, yeah that's not one sided at all.... Stop polluting this thread with your vitriolic hate speech...

You are correct, I've never read the book. I watched the movie based on the book many years ago. Enron was a single corporation manipulating electric power fees for one part of the United States, you've jumped to an organized cabal of power companies. Like Enron, I can see a few companies stifling one aspect or another of EV.

The earlier collapse of the EV-1 program might have been one such incident but that collapse can just as easily have been the proffered recognition by GM that the technology of the time was insufficient for the engineering and business demands of the market. In simpler terms GM may have seen too many parallels to Ford's nearly catastrophic attempt to leap to far and fast with the Edsel.

Hey Red, There was a time when I would have been willing to give the benefit of the doubt. that time has past with the access to information. This has been reported on since 2016. Here's one of the reports on the push to force accountability by making this information available to investors. You can lie to the media but money demands proof.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/16/major-global-firms-accused-of-concealing-their-environmental-impact

As we all learned on January 6th, even the most ridiculous conspiracy theories have dedicated adherents who will "Go the distance" for their lunacy. Well money is an even more powerful corrupter than "special knowledge" and its effects on people have been well known for eons. As a therapist I was trained, not to argue with who people demonstrate they are. AND DONT DENY WHO THEY SHOW YOU THEY ARE! That is the truth, what they say is often the reason they are in your office. It doesn't align with the truth. Cognitive Disonnance.

The Enron debacle was only the tip of the iceberg as they recently discovered. The corruption was rife thorough out Californias energy industry and regulatory agencies, it didn't stop at Enron. This failing allowed PG&E to become insanely profitable with all the bad things that go along with that. Because they didn't use the money to upgrade and improve service they pocketed it. This in turn caused a massive wildfire. Billions in damage, Lives lost, economies ruined. Those law suits are just now being formed. And then last year the blackouts. Corruption is always a house of cards. When it starts to fall it doesnt' stop.

Be interesting to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.

A known fact: Companies Like Exxon Mobil spend Millions every year on entire armies of people who constantly try to "tailor" what gets into the media just like the Kardashians do, only I can guarantee you that Exxon Mobile has much better people and more of them.

Pure rubbish...

Hey Red, just saw this and thought of you and our conversation.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/exxonmobil-and-chevron-suffer-shareholder-rebellions-over-climate/ar-AAKpdCB?ocid=BingNews

Is manipulating the market necessarily bad? Would you say those that manipulated the market by standardizing PC hardware back in the 80's and 90's were bad? Just because a business strategy is good for the business does not mean that it has to be bad for the consumer. Politicians love to talk about the win-win situations.

I won't second guess why Colonial did what it did. I have not followed this particular hack. Do you have proof that supports your accusation? Does Colonial get paid on a per gallon moved, or do they own the petroleum and make a percentage profit on the dollar cost for each gallon?

Yes, recharging station, similar to the small propane tanks exchange used for grills.. The battery technology is advancing so much, in not only in charging, but also safety.

There are things I question, is not so much the vehicle itself, but the infrastructure to support it. As in the chemical and possible the toxic metal waste used to produce the EV’s.

While I have seen many Amish and Mennonite buggies in my travels throughout Virginia, Pennsylvania and the mid-west, I have never seen anyone with a buggy whip. Those horses are lovingly cared for. Beautiful animals, and their owners' pride in their horses is very evident.

Gasoline stations take up a relatively small piece of land and a dozen cars can refuel in about twenty minutes or less, whereas a great deal of land will be required to charge up the hundreds of cars waiting for hours.

When electric cars can travel more than a questionable 400Km as touted in the brochure ware.

Just did 600Km one way trips through the back blocks where towns are 100Km apart and even the shops are closed, and still had another 100+Km in the tank of the ICE car.

Servos will add charging stations and then have an hour to weedle more money out of you in their coffee shop, bakery, restaurant, while you wait for the batteries to recharge or you are stuck in a queue to even get to the charger.

Good luck!

IMHO:

The delay will be because of power grid redesign.

Each recharging station will require a tremendous amount of power per day,especially along the interstates,and during holidays.

Even if they have swappable batteries,they still need the capacity to charge the depleted ones and room to store them,during and after charging.

No matter the battery technology,centralized charging has it's limitations.

Imagine every service station with an electric substation large enough to feed a small town?

Far better to distribute the power by embedding charging systems in the highways and topping off the batteries as needed.

I imagine high temp superconductors carrying DC, following the interstates will become the norm.

In urban areas,each intersection,or bus stop could have charge capability embedded in the roadway.Stop for a traffic light,top off your battery.

One of these days,they may even have a vehicle as smart as a horse.

No matter how impaired you were,the horse would always bring you back home (unless of course,your horse drank too much beer. I once had to put a blinder over one eye of my horse to keep him from seeing double.)

Not much worse than riding a drunk horse,or one with a hangover,when you also have a hangover.

The drunk horse reminds me, can one get a DWI in an autonomous vehicle?

Certainly! It will be given by an autonomous cop.

Eventually,there will be autonomous VTOL vehicles that can execute a mental command without further instructions.

Looking FAR ahead:

People will visit alien planets,vicariously, via a technology similar to the Holo Deck on star Trek.

Food and water made on command from the molecular level.

Miniature black holes used as a power supply.More powerful than matter-antimatter.

Human shaped, rotating masses(Very high masses) spinning at near light speed to create worm holes.(The shape designed for specific functions.)

Perhaps no food will be needed,only light.

Our human DNA could be modified to produce energy like plants,from light.

The CO2 expelled could nourish the vegetative part,and the oxygen produced could supply the mammalian part.Total closed loop system.

Green skin?Why not.

Aging of the body does not occur.

Nanobots keep all cellular functions operating at maximum efficiency.

And I am going way out on a limb here:

Peace in Israel and the Gaza strip?

Very good!! However, who gets the DWI? The drunk or the car?

That’s the attitude...

My experience people would laugh at my ideas, if they even came close to understanding it, they would saying it’s ridicules, never work or not needed.

I would do it anyways... and the some ideas worked some didn’t, but even the ones that didn’t work for its intent, the tools that I developed was very handy could be applied elsewhere as well as the ideas itself. It was a learning experience.

still got ridiculed by those people sitting on a fence passing judgement, it never bother me because when I looked at them driving away, it was a vehicle that resembled a old lumber cart while I got in my Porsche 911 paid for by my ideas they themselves ridiculed.

They might have a lot of chargers available but the more people that plug in the charge rate goes down, that's the way it works now...so it seems you never get the advertised charge rate unless you are the only guy around on the charger...to add to that the battery charges at different rates even if the power is available, the more charge you have the slower the charge rate that will be accepted....so the only way it could work as advertised is if you are at zero charge and charge for about 30 minutes, after that the charge rate drops precipitously..

My guess is electric vehicle dominance will start in cities with commuter vehicles and "last mile" delivery trucks. Thus urban gas stations may be the first to go. I know that in many areas of Brooklyn and Queens are already considered to be near gas station deserts but this is believed to be mostly from higher property values and more extensive mass transit. Maybe electric commuter vehicles is contributing to this.

It will take decades to switch to electric cars. Unless there is a huge breakthru. And it ain't cause we ain't been looking. EV is like climate change, it will come slow. And all gerbered up with corrupt politics. A real cluster.

With the political fingers in everything now, an EV support chain will take years to accomplish and then it will still fail. Someone won't wear a mask or get a vaccination and stop everything.

That is the reality. But visionaries don't like reality. They want their change and they want it NOW.

If these arrogant, know-it-all pro-green evangelists live that long...

Haymaker. You make the best comment yet IMO. I’m trading my 2017 Lexus ES350 100% fossil fuel (FF) car for the ES350h; the four banger gasser recharges the batteries for a average 43 MPG car good for about 650 miles per tank of FF.

Things aren’t as they appear...

In this case, things aren’t as green as they appear...

Yes, it is very easy to misunderstand where the added efficiency an EV has versus an ICE, particularly when seeing one being charged by a diesel generator. The majority of the efficiency comes from dynamic braking recharging the battery. Thus hybrids provide a lot of that efficiency improvement.

Like any technology,... becoming main stream,... there are some inefficiencies initially one has to put up with.

I suppose, there needs to be some sort of ‘icing’ to mask its current drawing backs, to develop the end game.

In the city, regenerative braking provides for efficiency improvements over ICE. On the highway, not so much.

The big savings both in fuel cost and emissions is due to the fact that the EV is not running when sitting stopped in traffic. This is a major part of our urban commuters fuel cost and it will be especially important to local deliver trucks and short haulers who work in and around cities and often spend four of their eight hour shift sitting with the motor running. Then there is the savings on brakes....

For you youngsters, there was a time when gasoline had lead in it. This was the cause of serious health issues in our children, but first the oil compnaies had us blame water pipes, except it showed up in the suburbs where there were no lead pipes, so then the oil companies blamed Paint. Sure there's lead in paint, but not enough to explain why this problem is genertional since leads been in paint for centuries.

Finally after a few million more brain damaged children the EPA said ENOUGH. Get the lead out of the gasoline or be sued for the damage you've done. It was amazing how fast that transition was able to occur once the income was threatened by the government, Otherwise we'd all still be breathing lead and our air would look like this.

Indeed. Brake pads are strictly for show. We used to test our repaired VFDs against a regenerative drive. Shaft coupled of course. A perfect testing load.

Meanwhile, PapaDoc asked a question.

The answer which that is pretty obvious and easy. A soon as a standard is adopted so people know what to install. The oil companies lobbied extensively for the standards current fueling operations use. It makes large scale adoption much faster, easier, and economical. All it will take really is either the US, China, Or Europe to say All Cars Have to Use 'X' and it will happen almost overnight. The Tesla system is a breeze to use compared to Electrify America or Chargepoint, only the EA station was capable of DCFC. ( CCS connection at 350kw as far as I know only Porsche uses this presently) In any case a 16amp lv2 is not going to cut it for most folks.

(note Electrify America is owned by VW and started installing them before they had anything electric in America other than the Egolf. (Foward looking company)

Chargers are expensive. Installing one is an investment that will not pay off fast so you want to KNOW you will be able to service as many cars as possible for the money spent not just say the few cars made by GM. Its that old ROI thingy the bean counters are focused on usually.

Hey Papa,

Given the actions in the last week I'd say sooner than later.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/topstocks/ford-rises-as-rbc-boosts-price-target-to-highest-on-wall-street/ar-AAKrubg?ocid=uxbndlbingoff

By 2050 you will be hard pressed to find gasoline. That's my prediction, I doubt I will live to see if it comes true.

frankly your prediction isn't a prediction, more of a statement.

Petroleum supply is finite and will run out... the reason I say its a statement is that predictions from the past for when petroleum is ending, came and went.

It only kept extending the date of when due to technical advances in getting the oil.

I believe change will come,... but it will be from the proverb of; "Necessity is the mother of invention"

You may be right. But I think hydrogen powered fuel cell will take over the market because of convenience. People are used to filling up in a few minutes and going on. An hour or two isn't going to be acceptable. I was thinking of getting an electric pickup. But when traveling, I don't want to wait very long to get back underway. And, think of the long lines. Hydrogen costs more now, but it don't have to come down to the price of gasoline, just close to it to get people to chose the convenience of hydrogen to EV.

The reason Amazon is so successful is the convenience.

I predict hydrogen fuel cells will capture the market in 5 years-10 at the most.

Now that one we might live to see.

Its good to see some real R&D from the Detroit boys. They've been selling you the same car for 50 years.

What is the fiduciary responsibility of a business/corporation to its stockholders?

Depends, in Shan gri la, or in the real world.

We will not run out of any fossil fuels in the near to mid future. Only one third of all the known gas and oil resources and all the new g&o resources are harvested with our current techniques.

Two thirds is still there. Waiting. Think about that. 2/3rds. And we still have plenty of coal. The premium of fossil fuels. And finding new resources for all.

John Kerry invests in fossil fuels. He supposes to think ahead.

I think the future is hybrid...the foreseeable future anyway...