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Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 3:41 AM

Since the disposal of used solar panels is a problem that is getting bigger, why don’t we use more wind power? All of the facilities for wind generation are recyclable. If the wind farms all across the nation where tied together in a grid, wouldn’t the rate of power generation level off? There’s probably wind blowing somewhere at all times. This is similar to my idea of the world-wide grid.

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#1

Re: wind power grid

08/17/2021 3:46 AM

Here's your mantra: Ohm, Ohm, Ohm...

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#2

Re: wind power grid

08/17/2021 3:58 AM

It's not an Engineering problem. The only reason is that some countries are more backward at coming forward. It can only be used if it is available for use.

It depends upon the definition of <...we...> really.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 7:09 AM

Make the blades with a recyclable material. Of course, the energy produced would be less. But it still may justify using a material that is recyclable.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 7:14 AM

Everything recycles. It's just a matter of timescale.

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#102
In reply to #5

Re: Wind Power Grid

09/09/2021 12:55 AM

It seems your wish has been granted. see the links below.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/worlds-first-recyclable-wind-turbine-blade-closes-the-sustainability-loop-in-wind-energy/

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/en-int/newsroom/2021/09/launch-world-first-recyclable-wind-turbine-blade

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#4

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 6:32 AM

What are the dimensions of these blades?

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 7:12 AM

Each can be compared to the wing of an aeroplane.

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#91
In reply to #6

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 5:41 AM

So just put a fuselage in the middle.

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 7:16 AM

Big

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#25
In reply to #4

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 11:57 AM

Some are bigger than a 747 wing.

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#9

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 7:52 AM

Cut them into manageable size pieces.

Sink them and make ocean habitat.

In a few years they will be covered with and inhabited by sea life.

In the right locations,covered in oysters. Or Zebra mussels.

Barnacles cover oil rig structures,likewise they will cover these blades.

The tapering shape will provide habitat and refuge for a variety of fishes.

And

In a few more years,they may become unrecognizable as man-made.

A contribution by man,instead of an everlasting tribute to man's defiance of nature's recycling order.

And PWS is right,everything recycles in time,as the Earth kneads the crust and the past is spewed out by volcanoes and new islands and continents.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 4:20 PM

Fiberglass is too light to be used as an artificial reef building material you need something heavy dense material that will stay in place, like giant boulders or steel ship wrecks...One big storm and all the blades will be washed up on the beach...

https://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/pdf/2005/reefplan05.pdf

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/17/2021 6:16 PM

Interesting document. Thanks !

I see that concrete ballasted tires are no longer used. So I suspect that even if the wind mill blades were partially filled with concrete to make them heavier, they wouldn't be accepted for similar reasons. Perhaps the concern is that as the tire decays, it may break free from the ballast and start migrating. NJ stopped using tires in 1998.

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#26
In reply to #10

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 12:11 PM

You an I often disagree, but on this we don't. The overriding concern is, was and will be money. Here in the Western Gulf of Mexico environmentalists long campaigned for turning abandoned offshore and floating oil & gas rigs into reefs. Only after it was proven technically feasible and cheap enough to clean, make ready, and properly emplace for "reef building" disposal did it come to common use The economic cross-over was +/- 2010. It's now the default method. Given that we've been drilling/producing in the GOM since the very early 1950's well...

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#53
In reply to #10

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:31 AM

..."The article goes on to describe the efforts of Ronald Albrecht and Don Lilly of Global Fiberglass Solutions Inc. (Bothell, WA, US). Their Seattle-area-based company, which has been recycling fiberglass since 2008, has invented a way to transform the old blades into products like manhole covers, building panels and pallets. The process begins at the wind farm itself, where technicians from GFSI cut dismantle blades into more manageable 37-meter chunks. To minimize — if not eliminate — hazardous dust, GFSI uses wet wire blades that are thin and strong enough to slice each wind blade open as cleanly as a cantaloupe. Then the company sprays a light mist of water so that debris rains into a giant dustpan lying beneath the blade.

Next, GFSI loads the dismantled blades onto trucks and hauls them to nearby yards where the blades are shredded into raw fiberglass material. A single blade yields about 15-20 bags of this waste, weighing between 700 and 1,000 pounds each. GFSI will reuse 100 percent of each blade. Even the bolts that circle the blade’s end section go to a metal salvage site for recycling.

According to GFSI, it has developed a patented and proprietary process for recycling fiberglass, grinding it into recyclable feedstock that is mixed with other compounds to form a moldable material, that it has trademarked Ecopolycrete, and making new products, like manhole covers, which are made of the reclaimed fiberglass mixed with rock and filler, says Kover’s article. Here’s a link to the GFSI web site: https://www.global-fiberglass.com/. "...

https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/perhaps-were-getting-closer-to-fiberglass-recycling

https://www.prweb.com/releases/global_fiberglass_solutions_poised_for_commercial_success_in_2021/prweb17654340.htm

https://www.globalfiberglassinc.com/aboutus

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 11:58 AM

Too bad the re-processing plant yard is not co-located with the wind farm...

( 37 m / 1 blade ) x (39.37 yards / 36 m ) x ( 3 feet / 1 yard ) ~> 121.4 feet / 1 blade-length

(I assume those chunks are re-cut to fit into conventionally-sized semi-trucks, right ?)

( Assuming 1 cu.ft / waste bag ) x ( > 15 bags / blade ) / ( say, 6 ft wide x 8 ft high x 24 ft long of available-cargo-volume-per-semi ) ~> 15 bags / 1,152 cu ft of available cargo-volume ~> 76.8 bags / Semi that are transported-to-disposal where?

Has anyone estimated the ratio of an equivalent ''half-life'' of a blade-chunk to that of a typical solar-array-panel ?

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 1:24 PM

transported-to-disposal

I believe SE was talking of recycling, not disposal.

Most semis are longer than 24 feet. Also wider and taller than you are assuming. I think many are 40 feet long, and I have heard of 53 feet--but I don't know how the many state laws control legal length.

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#58
In reply to #55

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 2:51 PM

In North America, the standard lengths of semi-trailers are 28 ft, 32 ft, 34 ft, 36 ft, 40 ft, 45 ft, 48 ft, and 53 ft. Some states also allow trailer lengths of 57 ft and above, though most have no minimum trailer length for state-wide roads.

And the semi's are still to short to transport a whole blade For a 1.5-MW turbine, typical blades should measure 110 ft to 124 ft (34m to 38m) in length, weigh 11,500 lb/5,216 kg and cost roughly $100,000 to $125,000 each. Rated at 3.0 MW, a turbine's blades are about 155 ft/47m in length, weigh about 27,000 lb/12,474 kg and are valued at roughly $250,000 to $300,000 each. And note, blades and getting bigger and longer on new turbines.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:11 PM

Has anyone developed a telescoping joint for the longer blades? When I worked in high tension poles, they were round and tapered plus erected vertically so gravity kept them together. But what about turbine blades that are sorta teardrop-shaped? Telescoping with bolts to keep it together? A flange joint? Something else?

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:27 PM

The point of first part of the comment was to call attention to answering the question: Would it not be more economical, and more environmentally sound, to ''burn'' fewer dollars-per-pound-of-fuel transporting, say, 1,000 lbs of blade-chunks, to an on-site processing yard than it would be to one more than, say, 100 miles off-site, in equal-sized trucks, what ever that size might be?

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 2:16 PM
=quantity of the substance remaining
=initial quantity of the substance
=time elapsed
=half life of the substance

That's the formula to calculate half life.

If the recycling/reprocessing plant was within the turbine area it will cause pollution and add additional control costs, enviro costs and more regulations to the wind farm owner. So doing it off-site is cost effective to the owner. He cares not a jot about any other costs to anyone else. Only his costs. Ask any wind farm tech how much it cost to change a $1.50 light bulb in a wind turbine or an aircraft beacon lamp on the nacelle.

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#62
In reply to #56

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:34 PM

The point of the second part of the comment was to draw attention to the question: If equal quantities of blade-chunks and solar-array-panels were buried in separate waste pits, under equivalent conditions, how long would each last before becoming 50% gone?

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#57
In reply to #53

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 2:41 PM

..."Wind turbine blades, longest over 100 meters and in weight close to 50 tons each, are made of FRP and yet today considered non-recyclable. Rapidly growing wind energy sector all over the world must find a solution for recycling the blades made of FRP to remain a truly green alternative !

http://www.conenor.com/recycling-thermoset-frpwasteork-ecobulk-takes-lead

Maybe we could make them into homeless shelters....

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#65
In reply to #53

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 7:46 PM

tcmtech probably has a solution.

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#98
In reply to #65

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/25/2021 5:51 PM
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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/25/2021 7:34 PM

Or ship them to underdeveloped nations where they could be cut up and re-purposed into housing.

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#109
In reply to #98

Re: Wind Power Grid

09/20/2021 7:32 AM

I can imagine blade sections used as columns to be filled with concrete,perhaps.

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#12

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 12:19 AM

The design of the turbines in many cases did not take into account the effect of lightning. I spoke with a maintenance man who worked on the wind Mills about 7-8 years ago. Lightning strikes are a disaster. No grounding is there so things get fried.
There is a huge NIMBY effect. Folks just don’t want them around. So look at New England where instead of putting them on land reducing capital cost, the put them in the ocean of all places. Ridiculous.
Then often in west Texas they would be off in the morning either due to no need or no wind. Huge fields of them just at a standstill.
Then there is the issue of base loading with fossil fuel power plants. Generating plants aren’t designed to go up and down in load. They are more steady state machines.

But politicians are generally stupid and have no clue how the world actually works. Stay tuned for more disasters with no power.
I worked in Texas where the thought of extended freezing weather was ignored. But not so much after last winters freeze. We can run refineries with some difficulty here in Detroit but Houston area refineries failed in their mission due to poor weather proofing.

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#13

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 12:20 AM

I posted this before, but it answers your question. The late guy who wrote this can no longer communicate with us. Ignore the part about the solar panels if you want.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GREEN’S DIRTY SECRET

The “renewable” energy crowd has long gotten away with propagating an image of

the industry as pristine, clean, and nothing but beneficial for the environment.

Not true.

Take the wind industry, which is dominated by massive, and growing, wind

turbines that dot America’s prairie’s and coast lines.

To start, the turbines are an eyesore, which is why so many liberal NIMBY’s

don’t want them in their own backyards.

The vista from the veranda of summer homes on Martha’s Vineyard surely can’t be

sullied, even if in the name of saving the planet from the ravages of global

cooling, er, global warming, er, climate “disruption.”

Moreover, the turbines every year kill and maim increasing numbers of federally

protected birds, including the Bald Eagle.

Most importantly, these turbines are filled with a great deal of metals, much of

it mined from jurisdictions with appalling environmental records.

While different models require different amounts of these metals, the “ballpark”

estimate of one 3 mega-watt turbine is as follows:

335 tons of steel;

4.7 tons of copper;

1,200 tons of concrete;

3 tons of aluminum;

2 tons of rare earth elements, including neodymium and dysprosium.

Much of these elements and their constituent parts must be mined, which is

normally anathema to eco-nut crowd, who spend a lot of time opposing mining.

More troubling, the necessary rare earth metals are mined and processed in

China, a country both hostile to American national security and a country

sporting a reprehensible environmental record.

It is estimated that China controls over 95% of the world’s rare earth deposits,

and has the market cornered in large part because most first world countries

won’t issue permits for such mining.

The U.S. wind industry requires between 5 and 6 million pounds of rare earth

metals each year.

Note that the mining of neodymium and dysprosium produces radioactive waste on a

one to one basis.

For every ton of the mineral mined, it produces a ton of radioactive waste,

according to the Bulletin of Atomic Science.

As one can appreciate, China doesn’t have disposal safeguards in place that even

come close to protecting people and the environment. Horror stories of Chinese

citizens near these mines becoming sick and dying are legion.

Compare that to America, where radioactive waste storage is so thick with

standards and safeguards, we can’t even get a permanent storage site in desolate

Nevada approved.

Solar panels aren’t a whole lot better.

These panels contain materials like cadmium telluride, copper indium selenide,

cadmium gallium (di)selenide, copper indium gallium (di)selenide,

hexafluoroethane, lead, and polyvinyl fluoride. Additionally, silicon

tetrachloride, a byproduct of producing crystalline silicon, is highly toxic.

There are increasing concerns that these chemicals can be washed out of panels

by rainwater. Moreover, they certainly get washed into the ground when panels

are broken during severe weather outbreaks like thunderstorms and hurricanes.

In any case, despite the presence of these chemicals, solar panels are currently

disposed of by chucking them in landfills.

It is estimated that in 2016, 250,000 metric tons of solar panel waste was

produced world-wide.

Moreover, the economics of recycling solar panels don’t turn a profit, meaning

that there is no market incentive to recycle the panels in the absence of

subsidies.

The bottom line is that “clean” energy isn’t so clean and comes with its own

trade-offs.

It isn’t just coal, nuclear, and natural gas that comes with a downside.

Copyright © 2019 Harold Hamilton at The Minnesota Watchdog & Anoka County

Watchdog, All rights reserved.

The Minnesota Watchdog and the Anoka County Watchdog thanks you for your

support. Sincerely, Harold Hamilton.

Our mailing address is:

Harold Hamilton at The Minnesota Watchdog & Anoka County Watchdog

C/O K Solutions LLC

3083 Victoria Street

Roseville, MN 55113

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 12:44 AM

"... amortizing the carbon cost over the decades-long lifespan of the equipment, Bernstein determined that wind power has a carbon footprint 99% less than coal-fired power plants, 98% less than natural gas, and a surprise 75% less than solar. " _ https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2021/04/28/how-green-is-wind-power-really-a-new-report-tallies-up-the-carbon-cost-of-renewables/?sh=59c1d34b73cd

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 5:51 AM

Decades long lifespan??? Try decade....

..."More specifically, they figure that wind turbines average just 11 grams of CO2 emission per kilowatthour of electricity generated. That compares with 44 g/kwh for solar, 450 g for natural gas, and a whopping 1,000 g for coal."

But beating them all is the original large-scale zero-carbon power source, nuclear power, at 9 g/kwh. ...Apr 28, 2021

https://stopthesethings.com/tag/wind-turbine-lifespan/

..."These claims are based on cost-estimates that assume the lifespan of wind turbines to be 30 years. However, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), the lifespan of wind turbines is about 20 to 25 years.

In Iowa, wind turbines are reaching the end of their lives even faster as MidAmerican Energy plans to repower turbines constructed in 2004, merely 14 years after they were installed.

To make matters worse, these cost-estimates attribute 30-year lifespans to every power plant – not just wind turbines – even though coal, nuclear, natural gas, and hydroelectric plants can generate electricity for more than 50 years.

Because these reports only look at a 30-year window, they fail to account for the additional spending necessary to repower a wind turbine and extend its life. According to a report conducted last year, investments in repowering these turbines will exceed $25 billion by 2030 in the United States.

By not factoring in this additional spending, these reports not only underestimate the true cost of wind energy, but overestimate the cost of power plants capable of generating electricity for more than 30 years.

In other words, these cost-estimates tell us is that wind energy would be the cheapest source of energy if all power sources produced electricity for a similar period of time… but they don’t.

Additionally, because wind turbines can only produce energy when the wind is blowing, they generate electricity less frequently than other generation sources. In Minnesota, wind farms produced electricity only 34.67 percent of the time in 2016."....

https://www.americanexperiment.org/limited-lifespans-of-wind-turbines-result-in-higher-costs-of-energy/

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 7:28 AM

You kinda slid over the other pollution of nuclear energy. Like all proponents of nuclear power, you didn't mention the storage of radioactive waste for 50000 years. Until a controllable waste from nuclear power is developed, it should not be used.

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#28
In reply to #21

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 3:44 PM

The Yucca mountain site has been chosen, it only remains empty because of political opposition...

..."The Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository, as designated by the Nuclear Waste Policy Act amendments of 1987,[2] is a proposed deep geological repository storage facility within Yucca Mountain for spent nuclear fuel and other high-level radioactive waste in the United States. The site is on federal land adjacent to the Nevada Test Site in Nye County, Nevada, about 80 mi (130 km) northwest of the Las Vegas Valley.

The project was approved in 2002 by the 107th United States Congress, but the 112th Congress ended federal funding for the site via amendment to the Department of Defense and Full-Year Continuing Appropriations Act, passed on April 14, 2011, during the Obama Administration.[3] The project has encountered many difficulties and was highly contested by the public, the Western Shoshone peoples, and many politicians.[4] The project also faces strong state and regional opposition.[5] The Government Accountability Office stated that the closure was for political, not technical or safety reasons.[6]"...

The nuclear waste can be recycled and used as fuel, but that too faces political opposition...

So this is a problem created by people with an agenda, not a technical problem...

https://whatisnuclear.com/recycling.html

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#31
In reply to #28

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 4:41 PM

Which recycling process leaves no long term radioactive waste?

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 5:18 PM

Reprocessing...

Processing of Used Nuclear Fuel

(Updated December 2020)

  • Used nuclear fuel has long been reprocessed to extract fissile materials for recycling and to reduce the volume of high-level wastes.
  • Recycling today is largely based on the conversion of fertile U-238 to fissile plutonium.
  • New reprocessing technologies are being developed to be deployed in conjunction with fast neutron reactors which will burn all long-lived actinides, including all uranium and plutonium, without separating them from one another.
  • A significant amount of plutonium recovered from used fuel is currently recycled into MOX fuel; a small amount of recovered uranium is recycled so far.
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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 5:46 PM

..."Over the last 50 years or so the principal reason for reprocessing used fuel has been to recover unused plutonium, along with less immediately useful unused uranium, in the used fuel elements and thereby close the fuel cycle, gaining some 25-30% more energy from the original uranium in the process. This contributes to national energy security. A secondary reason is to reduce the volume of material to be disposed of as high-level waste to about one-fifth. In addition, the level of radioactivity in the waste from reprocessing is much smaller and after about 100 years falls much more rapidly than in used fuel itself."...

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#89
In reply to #34

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 4:17 AM

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#37
In reply to #21

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 10:56 PM

False fake news. Storage of spent reactor waste can be done in the remote areas of the west.

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#63
In reply to #14

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:41 PM

A ''carbon foot print'' is not directly a ''lifespan'', but your anser is good enough for my purposes. Here's another GA.

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 4:26 AM

There is no reason to use double-spaced manuscript format here. The editing window for your post has expired, but please try to be more readable next time.

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#30
In reply to #16

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 4:41 PM

Sometimes copy-and-paste does that on its own. Then the user has to go back and delete all the line-feeds.

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#15

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 4:22 AM

A recent documentary on the BBC in the UK looked at a proposal to add to an existing off-shore wind farm, adding another hundred or so generators. The surprising part was the realisation that this required a 75m wide trench to be dug on-shore through farmland to carry the power cables & the building of 4 sub-stations to connect to the national grid.

I've never understood why the UK has not invested in tidal power. We are surrounded by water which rises & falls in a predictable manner day & night.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 5:51 AM

The documentary you saw did not include the option of placing the substations on the shoreline and connecting generated power to the grid using overhead power lines. That would considerably reduce cost, disruption and land area used. The program makers clearly had an agenda to influence the viewers against offshore wind farms by highlighting what is probably the worst option for getting power ashore. This is not fake news because the bad option does exist, but without putting that option into context and comparing it with alternative options, it comes very close. Years ago the BBC would have refused to broadcast this documentary or would have included a statement pointing out its bias. The high standards we expect of the BBC to report accurately no longer hold.

The public generally dislikes pylons and overhead power but I see no alternative if we are to have an "electric" future. The Olympic Park was in the path of existing power lines and over £30 was spent burying these cables in underground ducts. An alternative of re-routing the cables along a path half a mile south of the park would have cost less than £3 million but at the cost of upsetting house holders/land owners/voters. If a local council had wasted £27 million of tax payers money the Public Auditor would have surcharged the councilors. Until our government and the public acknowledges that underground cables are too expensive to install and impractical to maintain, proposals to bury power lines will continue to waste much of the infrastructure planners time.

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 6:37 AM

The cheapest,most efficient way to transport power is high-temp super conductors.

Even with the cost of refrigeration,it is the cheapest method.

The US connects to the Canadian grid using this method,and where the grids from East-West meet in the States,it is used.

It makes phase matching simpler and cheaper.

Long Island is supplied this way .Several other islands are supplied this way in the Pacific. The cables can be much smaller and less disruptive to install.

The naysayers have not done their homework.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 8:18 AM

HTRN, I'm pretty sure the US-Quebec and E-W interconnections are not superconductor. They are HVDC, so that the non-synchronized systems can be connected. However, the high-temp superconductor technology hasn't yet reached the practical, "commercial" stage where the utilities are using it. There are ongoing test projects, particularly in Europe, but it has not been put in commercial use in our utilities yet.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 9:28 AM

In 1998 Long Island was commissioned:

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/technical-articles/transmission/transmission-and-distribution-world/commissioning-of-first-superconductor-power-transmission-cable/index.shtml

And another link to same :

https://www.power-grid.com/td/successfully-operating-200-kv-superconducting-hvdc-transmission-highlights-reliability-efficiency/

I read years ago that the Canada/USA link is now superconductor coupled,as well as the East-West Grid.

There are also some Islands in Japan supplied by superconductors.

You can do the research on those if you care to.

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#46
In reply to #23

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 12:47 PM

The superconductor connectors you mentioned are very limited distances within LIPA's jurisdiction. The last mention of them is from 2016 in articles I saw. But the search I did on the main interconnectors between major grid sections such as Eastern to Quebec or Eastern to Western don't have any mention of superconductor. They are HVDC, but the superconductor technology has just not translated into the commercial, large-scale utility transmission sector.

American Superconductor doesn't seem to have any significant transmission line level superconductor products in their portfolio - just the use of HTS in specific, local products. A general search on HTS transmission lines brings up a few mentions globally from 2013 - 2019, but nothing major in the USA. So I stand by my statements.

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#50
In reply to #46

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 1:48 AM
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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 2:12 AM

Seems all news stops around 2016...

http://www.tresamigasllc.com/

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 3:21 AM

The costs of completing these HDVC superconductor grid ties will probably be included in the new infrastructure bill...

...."Power infrastructure: The legislation would dedicate a considerable $73 billion to clean energy transmission and upgrade U.S. power infrastructure with "thousands of miles" of new transmission lines. It would create a new Grid Deployment Authority to invest in research and development for advanced transmission and electricity distribution technologies and also invest in demonstration projects and research hubs for technologies including advanced nuclear reactors, carbon capture and clean hydrogen."...

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/follow-the-money-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-with-73b-for-power-grid-clears-key-senate-hurdle/

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#20

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 6:42 AM

The question one should ask is "Why do you feel the need to have so much electricity?" Do we need so many electrically powered gadgets making us lazier and lazier. Is your existing equipment so inefficient in electrical use?

The biggest consumers of electricity is not households, even though they pay the higher prices, industry is the big user. So let industrial companies install solar or their own wind turbines to support their needs rather than flooding countrysides with eyesores and f farmers don't use the land for agriculture, plant trees or bushes to soak up CO2.

I have a feeling marketing has driven people to stop thinking and like dead fish, they go with the flow to fit in with society (of sales and marketing). Just how much enough is enough?

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#29
In reply to #20

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 3:49 PM

Using tools to add to productivity is not being lazy, it's being efficient....

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#35
In reply to #29

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 7:05 PM

Quite agree with your there on that point, however, equipment is far more efficient and economical these days than previous. The west seems infatuated with driving economies for more profits, generating more waste that fills landfill sites. Once buried its out of sight and no more an problem. But it is a problem.

The insatiable need to have more electricity seems insane of late. Many countries have too much and sell it forward to other countries for additional revenues. Its traded as a commodity on the stock exchange and the price varies per megawatt every moment. The losses on electricity produced is found on the lines, (cables and overhead lines). HTLS conductor can be run at higher temperatures and higher load than normal OH conductor. Also by changing the generating frequency from US 60Hz, Europe 50Hz to a standard 16Hz, the line losses are reduced and the utility can extend his line length by two thirds of that of standard AAAC or ACSR length. His losses are reduced.

This then provides and answer to the original question of a world wide grid, but, all equipment needs to change to a lower frequency which would cost millions. Alternately the transmission is at 16Hz then converted back to 50/60Hz. It's just not practical.

Keep in mind, the more electric we produce and provide, the hidden cost is in earth fault currents rising with each substation we build and each transmission line we build. Protection becomes bigger and needs to operate faster and becomes more expensive, this expense passed on to the consumer. Normally earth fault currents are limited to 35-40KA. In New York the earth fault currents are already at 100KA and rising.

Electric seems to be a commodity like sugar, one never seems to have enough or use it sparingly. Billboards along highways illuminated, neon signage in cities lighted up to impress no one in particular, if they were switched off, would we really need to produce more electric and would it reduce CO2? Would it give industry more and would it reduce the cost to the consumer?

So again and really, how much electricity does the western world actually need to run smoothly. NB. OH yes! Africa does need electricity, no one there can keep the lights on. And for most the closest to electricity they can get is a battery. So I speak from experience, it's a western problem and requirement to have more electricity.

In 2020, about 4,009 billion kilowatthours (kWh) (or about 4.01 trillion kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale electricity generation facilities in the United States. There are many countries that could only dream of having 1% of that usage.

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#39
In reply to #20

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 7:10 AM

I remember the technology of the '50's in the South.

Very few houses had electricity,and the ones that did had only one light fixture in the middle of the room,with a pull string for on/off/.

Ma and PA had a string to each bedpost,allowing either one to control the light..(the first 3-way switch.)

The main fuse was an Edison-base 30 amp,in a knife-switch disconnect.

No electric range,refrigerator,or counter top appliances,no central heat or air.

You slept in a feather bed in the winter,with kids at the bottom of the bed,and adults at the top to keep each other's feet warm.

In the summer, you worked hard and sweated a lot.

No indoor plumbing,privies were the norm.

If you were well off,you had a door on the privy,if not a burlap sheet was you door.

No toilet paper,unless you had a catalog from Monkey Ward or Sears,and you had to

wrinkle it up thoroughly to soften it up.

Corn cobs were used instead of toilet paper,red cobs first,then the white ones for

quality control.

You had everything you needed,but no more.

You had to grow or hunt for your food.

You had to be an excellent marksman:ammo was not cheap.

A box of .22's (50 bullets) was $.50.

Every shot had to count.

You mentally chastised yourself if

you missed.

I remember being hungry a lot while learning.

Sure,we could survive with a lot less,but I would not want to return to those days of

yesteryear.Would you?

Solar,on the surface seems like win-win situation,but there ain't no free lunch.

Every technology comes with side effects,like cows and cow patties..you can't

have one without the other.

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 8:02 AM

Being a sharecroppers son, I know what you are talking about.

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#45
In reply to #39

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 10:52 AM
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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 4:33 PM

Thanks for the laughs.

The first liar never has a chance:

"Cold water"

"Deep too"

"Got a muddy bottom"

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 8:40 PM

Reminds me of a birthday card for guys I saw once:

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#94
In reply to #20

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 6:58 AM
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#24

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 11:55 AM

All of the facilities for wind generation are recyclable.

Well no. Go to any longterm operating wind farm and right nearby you will find a boneyard filled with worn out blades. I know, because I have driven past them in West Texas.

The truth is recycle requires two things: material to be recycled AND a marketplace for those recyclables. Ask any major urban municipality that has a full scale recycling program about bottle glass. Yes they can recycle it, yes there is a marketplace and yes they are paid 10 cents on the dollar for their cost to recycle.

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#27

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 12:43 PM

Perhaps research should be done to use these in a wind-assisted propulsion system for large ships.They are the right shape,and by rotating they could be controllable for best effect.The long term durability might be a problem,but it may be worth investigating.

There are several companies developing wind-assisted power for large ships.

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#33
In reply to #27

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 5:29 PM
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#40
In reply to #33

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 7:15 AM

Cut them down to size,or make them hinged for passage under bridges.

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#41
In reply to #27

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 7:29 AM

Quite sure the centrifugal forces of a rotating blade turning a turbine would have an ill effect on a ship. Besides, where would this be positioned on a LPG transporter or a container ship?

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 8:34 AM

Not talking about a spinning blade, I mean a vertical blade,like a sail.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 10:48 AM

'...and by rotating they could be controllable for best effect'. Undefined rotation in your post.

Easy solution to the shipping woes. Install two nacelles in the hull. Install paddle wheels to the nacelles. One on each side of the hull. They will turn, generating 33kV to power up a motor to drive the ship along. Use diesel motors to get out of port and once moving, the paddles turn generating the voltage to the motor from the nacelle. Ta Ra, recycled nacelles And use blade sections for paddles. Two birds with one stone!

Even simpler, bring back sails for ships. No pollution and no whining from greenies.

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#48
In reply to #44

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/19/2021 5:06 PM

Seems a size comparison here is necessary....

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#36

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 10:31 PM

Wind power is over-rated, it is not reliable, they try to tie the individual turbines into the grid but they are unable to be counted on for sustained power. In the Pacific Northwest, in one instance, wind turbines were on line generating 10MW and within 30 minutes dropped to less than 5MW. A dam has to have one of their turbines spun-up but not generating to cover a sudden drop in power from the turbine farms. Also, the turbines cannot be used to absorb power to help control power factor as can other gas, hydro, and coal fired plant generators. If not for subsidies wind and solar would not be built. The concept that these are "green" sources of power is an illusion. No-one considers the cost in building these types of sources. The rare earths needed for solar and the fact that they can't operate on cloudy days and during the night, and the wind turbines, which are unreliable and are bird Cuisinart's. If you get caught with a bald eagle feather you're in deep trouble but as the eagles pile up around the wind turbines no-one sees any problems! Wind and solar, in my opinion, are not even logical sources to span a gap between our current sources and the "new super source" we currently aren't aware of. Now we have the scrap to deal with and no-one knows what to do with it because it, apparently, is not cost effective for recycling.

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/18/2021 11:53 PM

Not to mention the footprint required...

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#61
In reply to #36

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 5:29 PM

This experimental fusion reactor put out a record-breaking 10 quadrillion watts

https://www.techradar.com/news/this-experimental-fusion-reactor-put-out-a-record-breaking-10-quadrillion-watts

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#64
In reply to #61

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 7:23 PM

I think fusion is a great source of power. My question is how do we contain the reaction? and how do we control the reaction? Once a sun is going gravity keeps things together; so what do we do to keep things together?

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#66
In reply to #64

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/20/2021 11:40 PM

Well the size is controlled by the rate of fuel feed, and the plasma is contained via magnetic field manipulation....Most of the heat produced is converted to electricity which is used to power superconductor magnets that create a very dense magnetic field...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Meissner-effect-expulsion-of-magnetic-flux_fig28_259574083

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#76
In reply to #66

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:00 PM

Well it appears researchgate doesn't want to let me join/browse the link. I know the method discussed for containing a plasma is the use of a magnetic field but from what I've read in the past they have a problem with plasma leaking out of the confines of the magnetic field...I presume very hot plasma leaking is not a preferred event and thanks for the link.

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#81
In reply to #76

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:58 PM

Well in truth nobody knows what will be the final mix of technologies that will achieve a working fusion reactor...there's a lot of players....and nobody knows for sure when that might occur...

https://www.powermag.com/fusion-energy-is-coming-and-maybe-sooner-than-you-think/

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 8:16 PM

Just ten more years.

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#86
In reply to #81

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 12:58 AM

I was unaware of how far fusion development has progressed. The article was eye-opening for me and I appreciated you providing the link. Lots of technical details to resolve but very promising. I hope we can keep things together long enough to get it done...

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#87
In reply to #76

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 3:22 AM

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 3:37 AM

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#100
In reply to #88

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/27/2021 12:56 AM
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#96
In reply to #87

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 3:24 PM

Really interesting SE. I enjoyed both videos.

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#67

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 1:17 AM

Going back to the beginning of all this, why would you make a wind power grid separate from any other grid? Instead, just feed the wind power into whatever existing grid is already nearby.

A separate grid would require that consumers have a transfer switch to choose between your wind grid and whatever other grid they might have access to. In other words, what is the whole point of this?

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 4:54 AM

'..what is the whole point of this?" Depending on the point you had in mind. The main point is to reduce the idea of CO2 and mans evil ways as deemed by the do gooders and get rid of coal fire power stations and nuclear stations.

It is also to make people feel good about saving the planet of CO2 and ignoring the methane deposits in the ground.

The main point of any electricity supplier to make profits from a permanently consuming, needy population of rich folks who 'need' electricity. In other words a population of electricity drug users, who are told they need to consume more by their dealers. These same electric junkies are also addicted to water so they meet their needs by needing more and more by building wind turbines and solar plants. The addiction is overwhelming but profitable. Even sanctioned by governments as being legitimate. Where heroine and crack etc is illegal as it is less addictive than electric and water.

If they fed the electric into a local grid for local consumption, it is not stable and continuous. If it is fed into a main grid, it is still not stable, but they can manage the surges and drops in voltage and adjust loads accordingly by importing or exporting electricity from other states, countries, suppliers who have less load and surplus electric. You can't store electric for later use and the gen sets still produce electric even if no one is using it, so the supplier has a high cost to produce and no income, so he exports it to someone who wants it. Like more drug users.

So this whole BS of needing electric is a farce, the more a state or country can export to a needy state or country, the more revenue is created to buy fancy cars, booze and homes and diamonds and women.

So if we all gave up our drug abuse of water and electric, we would not have any issues and this blog would never happen. If we really used solar cookers to cook foods and some solar panels for electric and solar water heating, and got off our high horses about pretending to save the world, and gave up our addiction to electrons and H2O use, we would all be in a better place, and the fairies at the bottom of the garden would be most happy.

Experiment to try: turn your main breaker off in the house. See how long you can go without your 'fix' of electric. No TV, no laptop, no phone charging, etc. Within an hour you will be mental. And no, your food wont spoil in the fridge in 30 minutes of no electric. I can almost guarantee, most folks will not make 15 minutes let alone 60 minutes, let alone a whole day without electric. But you will know just how dependent you are on your 'dealer' when you switch back the breaker and you get your fix.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 5:10 AM

You don't seem to understand what quality of life means...Do you live in the woods with no water and no electric? ...or are you just a hater?

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 5:54 AM

posted in error. no comment.

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#73
In reply to #71

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:38 AM

You wont get a comment on your comment as no one knows where to find Error. Its not on Google maps. And certainly not on this web page. Please advise, we need to know and cannot be left in the dark without electric. Someone get a solar panel into Error and let there be light on the subject. Be gone darkness, be gone!

Des Error have a postal service? I thought that was a thing of the past. Where is Postman Pat when you need him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC1JDlJlNVY

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 6:39 AM

Like fishing and you bite hook line and sinker. Depends on what you term quality and what I term necessity. I don't need cotton wool cuddles and fuzzy nonsense. I'm working hard on the hater bit though.

I say what I want to say and don't mind your comment in the least. It gives you some thinking and keeps you busy! You are always the first to comment to anyone who does not follow your way, throwing out your thoughts and ideals as the gospel. Your quality is not everyone quality. Clear from you lack of a sense of humour or wit. But, I have lived without all your 'quality' for many years and know from working in many countries who don't have your cushy lifestyle, so I have learned what is out there.

I build power lines and wind farms and substation and even built some of your HVDC converter stations in the USA. So I know what you have and how easy you have it. And how much you complain about not having services. Try living in Africa and cooking your food without electric each day.Try living in the Himalayas with no electric. Plenty pristine water though if you want to fetch it up from the river. Try having a 25l bucket of water for washing. And then appreciate what you really have and how much it is costing to have that quality of life you so cherish. Easy street, sir.

The one thing I did learn was not to waste and the waste produced by the west is unbelievable and its no wonder the west is making issues with waste as they appreciate zip. So now they need to clean up their mess and made it a 'world problem'. And the west benefited for so long and cared diddely squat, until now.

So instead of leaving your TV on standby along with your laptop and Hi-Fi system and lights, switch it off. That's what switches are for.

Appreciate that you have piped water and don't need to fill a tank to have water. Appreciate you have electric and all the gadgets to cook. A frankly if you were so smart, you would change all your street lights to solar and reduce the load on power stations. If you have the sunshine and live in the sunshine states. Get smart, then you don't need half the wind farms you think you do, or being told you need. If you really want to have your quality and save the world, you need to give up something. Nothing for free and and most of the world really does not need the west's crap and rules and assumed guidance on CO2.

Sweden has nuclear and hydro and now being forced to take up wind farms. Oddly being built by the Chinese who get lovely grants and profit greatly. Sweden has very low pollution levels. S Africa has coal fired stations, maybe half of them work, so electric is scarce on a daily basis. Most people have home generators. Ethiopia has the American funded dam and most people don't have electric, they have home generators if they can afford them. The electricity production will only partially go to the people when the dam operates. Most will go to export for foreign income; Sudan, Eritrea, etc. Tanzania will give to the little industry that exist. Not the people as they cant afford the electric let alone get it to the villages. Kenya has an interconnector, HVDC between Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, and Rwanda.

But so far I have not seen any comments here, on saving electric, but much on complaining about the blight on your landscape. I don't mind in the least, I don't have to see them on a daily basis in your country. I build it and walk away and leave you to the eyesores and mercy of profiteers and greenies. And I don't have to take away the scrap in my suitcase. That's your problem. Find a solution and be prepared to sacrifice a little of your quality of life if you are anywhere near serious about cleaning up your mess.

But as in all things, its good to chat. And actually, I live in a double story shoe box in an affluent area below a street light in a gutter. Pop over sometime for a visit and a cup of tea, Anytime!

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#75
In reply to #72

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 2:54 PM

I don't mind if you want to live in the wild like an animal, that's ok with me, but don't try to proselytize others to your way of thinking, the American people have worked hard and long to raise their standard of living, they have earned what they have....If you are satisfied with what you have, then you should be happy not resentful and hateful of others who have more....So your statements here identify you as a perhaps confused person that doesn't know his own true nature....you clearly have unresolved issues with your life choices...Your misanthropic toned comments here show an undesirable agenda of anti-societal tendencies that add nothing to the value of this dialog...

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:42 PM

'Your misanthropic toned comments here show an undesirable agenda of anti-societal tendencies that add nothing to the value of this dialog.."

But you replied!

Do I threaten your position of power on this site? Hmm! Me thinks the lord god has evangelized his mysterious horde. Bring on the wrath of Hades, release the Cracken.

'(the American people have worked hard and long to raise their standard of living, they have earned what they have'. I will take you up on that one on a later date for sure!)

No where near in your psychological analysis but sure as heck enjoying the banter. Thanks for being a steadfast and fastidious sport.

Have to go, my dinosaur is over cooking on the spit.

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#77
In reply to #67

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:26 PM

While I think wind and solar are viable for small individual power requirements I have long-thought a better alternative would be to use the solar and wind to heat water (or a brine or salt) to provide heat to power a boiler which drives a generator. The generator can then be on the grid and provide a more reliable source of power, although at a more moderate level. It would be less efficient because it would go heating a steam turbine but it would provide the ability to control the power on the grid and to be able to absorb power to help control power factor as needed. Variation in sunlight or wind could then be averaged out; still not the most desirable solution, doesn't address the waste issue or the very "ungreen" mining of rare-earths and the energy required to manufacture batteries and wind-turbines but maybe makes the power it provides more palatable...

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:51 PM

Hence the reason why the Pacific Northwest is not a good source for solar power...

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 8:03 PM

Give them a chance, they may just be slow in trying. Give them some encouragement to enhance themselves.

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#68

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 2:50 AM

The wind power availability time does not match the electric demand time, in fact they seem to be opposite...

Wind power is available when we least need it and absent when we most need it....

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Daily-profiles-of-wind-power-generation-and-demand_fig1_265555810

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#74
In reply to #68

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 7:58 AM

That's not applicable to a nationwide grid of wind generators for general use-not just for electrical cars. Plot that for nationwide demand. Add more wind generators to take care of the maximums or storage.

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#84
In reply to #74

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/21/2021 8:51 PM

If wind turbines were cost effective they wouldn't need all the incentives offered by the government....

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 12:28 AM

Amen!

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#90
In reply to #68

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 5:38 AM

All solar farms incorporate energy storage of some type.Batteries are the most common.

This allows using the energy on demand.

I presume wind would have the same.

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#92
In reply to #90

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 6:21 AM

No they don't have grid level storage anywhere, that would take many square miles of batteries and cost trillions of dollars....

..."Today’s battery storage technology works best in a limited role, as a substitute for “peaking” power plants, according to a 2016 analysis by researchers at MIT and Argonne National Lab. These are smaller facilities, frequently fueled by natural gas today, that can afford to operate infrequently, firing up quickly when prices and demand are high.

Lithium-ion batteries could compete economically with these natural-gas peakers within the next five years, says Marco Ferrara, a cofounder of Form Energy, an MIT spinout developing grid storage batteries.

“The gas peaker business is pretty close to ending, and lithium-ion is a great replacement,” he says.

This peaker role is precisely the one that most of the new and forthcoming lithium-ion battery projects are designed to fill. Indeed, the California storage projects could eventually replace three natural-gas facilities in the region, two of which are peaker plants.

But much beyond this role, batteries run into real problems. The authors of the 2016 study found steeply diminishing returns when a lot of battery storage is added to the grid. They concluded that coupling battery storage with renewable plants is a “weak substitute” for large, flexible coal or natural-gas combined-cycle plants, the type that can be tapped at any time, run continuously, and vary output levels to meet shifting demand throughout the day.

Not only is lithium-ion technology too expensive for this role, but limited battery life means it’s not well suited to filling gaps during the days, weeks, and even months when wind and solar generation flags.

This problem is particularly acute in California, where both wind and solar fall off precipitously during the fall and winter months.

This leads to a critical problem: when renewables reach high levels on the grid, you need far, far more wind and solar plants to crank out enough excess power during peak times to keep the grid operating through those long seasonal dips, says Jesse Jenkins, a coauthor of the study and an energy systems researcher. That, in turn, requires banks upon banks of batteries that can store it all away until it’s needed.

And that ends up being astronomically expensive."....

https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/07/27/141282/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/

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#95
In reply to #92

Re: Wind Power Grid

08/22/2021 12:36 PM

Edison Iron batteries can last up to 20+years.Not as economical space wise,but they are super durable.Can tolerated cold,heat,deep discharge with no damage.Good for isolated off grid areas where small supply and demands exist,like the Alaska outback,for instance.

I was referring to batteries to level out demand peaks,not whole-grid system.

Huge cells are sometimes sold as individual cells,allowing for more efficient charging and maintenance.

Flow batteries are also sometimes used,with the Redox type being more popular.

The capacity of these batteries is only limited by the storage capacity of the electrolyte tanks.

https://mpoweruk.com/flow.htm

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