Is High Altitude Addictive or is it the Endorphins?

For those who've hiked the Mt Wilson trail, please don't think that I'm not saying it's a hard trail. I hiked Mt Wilson trail for about eight months straight (nearly every weekend). Sometimes I didn't make it to the top. My goal was to at least get to the bench at Manzanita Ridge. I remember a lot of times I wanted to turn back at Orchard Camp, but I'd push to the bench, then turn back. Last September, I had this crazy idea that I could hike to Mt Wilson in 114 degree weather. The air felt stifling and I had the feeling that I'm not suppose to be out there, yet I started the hike. By the time I got to First Water, I was beat! I've never walked down the trail, so I decided to - I could hear the water running and I figure that I could cool off as needed. After hanging out in the cool waters, I decided to head back.

I believe that Mt Baldy is a tougher hike than Mt Wilson Trail, because of the high altitude. Baldy is just shy of 4,000 ft total E gain, while Wilson is 5,700 ft. Baldy is 12 miles and Wilson is 14 1/2.

If you've hiked the Mt Wilson Trail, I think you're a strong hiker! It's not for a beginner.

While stationed at Norton AFB (currently San Bernardino International Airport) in the mid-1960s, I started climbing some of the higher peaks in the vicinity. My favorite was San Gorgonio which I managed to climb at least once in each calendar month. I preferred the route up the north side but occasionally joined colleagues going up the south route. Once you've enjoyed Mt Wilson you're ready for San Gorgonio, especially the scree slope the upper 1000' on the north side<g>.. Yes, I'd agree "high altitude is addictive" although Mt Whitney is the highest I've climbed.

Thanks for the tip.

My goal is San Gorgonio, but 11.5K is high for me. Hopefully, I'll do it before the snow falls - I won't hike in snow again. Somewhere in my to do list is Mt Whitney, but I think I'll backpack when I do it.

Climbing San Gorgonio monthly! Very impressive!

A friend of mine just did the John Muir Trail. I was told that the hike up to Whitney from the back side is much nicer than from Whitney Portal.

114 deg. F!!! I can't imagine. I would be prone with an ice-pack on my forehead. We recently had two full weeks of 30 C. weather (86 F.). It seemed interminable. I moved in slow motion sweating misery through each day. If I didn't have such roots here in south central Ontario I would be heading north - north of Lake Superior.

Here's an interesting question: Have most civilizational advances come from temperate climes? My guess is that they have. Had James Watt lived in the jungle he probably would not have had the energy to design a better hammock - let alone improving the steam engine.

Your Eurocentric bias is showing. India, Egypt, and many other hot climate areas have made significant advances in civilization. The hot climates just hide the achievements when no one is there to maintain them.

I am not suggesting that people in hot climates have not contributed to civilizational advances. It is a matter of degree (pun intended). I think the question needs more investigation. Nothing to do with Eurocentrism, simple by reason - if for half the year the weather is such that if you don't have warm clothing, snug shelter, and a plentiful stock of food, you are going to die, then surely these necessities of survival in colder climates are a driving force of innovation.

No latitude maintains a comfortable climate all year long. While you are shivering in the winter New Orleans is comfortable. It is not comfortable in New Orleans today. Adversity does promote innovation but adversity arrives at everyone's doorstep.

Climate is just one factor that has driven innovation. Theology is another. Judeo-Christian theology originated in a hot climate, but migrated north and west through the temperate zone. God, according to the Book of Genesis, gave man "dominion over all the earth". The first book of their sacred text therefore justified the belief that the task of humans "made in God's image" was to carry on God's work - to add to and improve upon God's creation. This belief system fit well with people living in colder climates. Those regions of God's creation needed a lot of work to make them more habitable, and God, according to their belief, wanted that to be done. Industriousness was equated with Godliness.

Yes, Judeo-Christian theology and a temperate climate were parents of, to give one example, an architectural revolution. The magnificent, airy Gothic cathedrals, with all of the attendant structural engineering advances necessary to bring them into existence, were conceptualized and built in Europe, not in the tropical jungle. This is not personal bias colouring my view of history. Those cathedrals are facts on the ground. If you want to see them, don't book a jungle tour.

Jungle climates hide and dismantle ancient architecture. India has spectacular ancient structures. The Incans and Mayans placed many of their best works on mountain peaks. Many feel putting these cities on mountains was done in response to the hot climate and for defense.

Brilliant, innovative people exist outside of Europe. "16" is the Western Arabic symbol for sixteen. Algebra comes from India. Pasta and noodles were not eaten by the original builders of the Notre Dame cathedral, Marco had yet to be born let alone bring this food to Europe.

Rose-colored glasses can soothe us as they color our world. We should still remember the world has many different colors, too.

A period of adjustment is called for when changing climate conditions, and central air conditioning would help I think.... As a native from Florida back in the 50's and 60's, before A/C was widely adopted, we would stay wet all day, either at the beach, or the pool, or at the very least playing with the hose or a sprinkler in the yard...Water and wind the first A/C....still works...

The greatest heat I have ever experienced was in '63 on one of my father's marathon cross-country car trips. Las Vegas was one of the destinations. Driving across the desert, and almost dying from the heat, we noticed that most of the other cars had their windows up. Being from Ontario, we had never heard of automobile A/C, so my dad concluded that the other drivers must have learned that crossing the desert with the windows rolled up would eliminate the furnace blast of air and therefore be more comfortable. So at his insistence, up went the windows. After a few minutes we were all molten blobs, except him. He seemed immune to heat. "What do you think?" he asked, "It's a bit better isn't it?"

Ha ha that's hilarious....we're lucky any of us survived childhood....I remember the first car I rode in with air conditioning, it was an add on job, mounted under the dash, it was all chrome and looked like something from outer space, alien technology....it must have been in the mid to late 50's, but it was the greatest thing, it would gradually freeze up and be spitting out ice, it was amazing to me at the time...now I realize that it was undercharged and probably leaked, but at the time the guy told me this was normal, it just got too cold haha...

Don't tell my better half about this, she'll want to put one in the old Alfa's!

I love it!

When I was a kid, my best friend went to California for their vacation. They drove, my friend, his two brothers, mom and dad. I remember hearing his dad tell us that people die when their cars break down in the desert. They had this big Cadillac (a year or two old) and his dad went to the local garage to check everything before the trip.

When my friend got back, I had all sorts of questions about the trip and driving across the desert. Remember, this was way before the internet, so our thoughts of the desert were Wiley Coyote and Road Runner or the old west movies. He told me it was no big deal and yes, they had AC and drove with the windows up!

Many years ago, I saw a car driving down the road with one of these things. Later, I found out that it's a swamp cooler (predates freon AC in cars).

Yep! We had one of those in our car when we moved from Colorado to California in '54. We were towing a trailer, and at that time the speed limit for towing was 45mph. It would've worked better at a higher speed.

And still does! Too bad most kids miss out on this ritual of summer!

Hiking in 114 degree weather was a mistake. The air is super dry when it gets that hot, so I don't feel drained, like in humid weather. Though there's an eerie silence when it gets that hot - like sound doesn't move as well ... or maybe because there aren't many people out and the animals have taken shelter.

Many years ago (when I was in better shape), I was on a business trip in Scottsdale, AZ. I left the plant around 5:00 or so and it was 105 ish. I got back to the hotel and decided to take a run - the air was nice and hot and I thought it would allow me to sweat out any toxins in my body. After the first mile, I started feeling shaky and I stopped sweating. My stomach felt very upset, so I walked a few minutes, then decided to head back. I felt very unsure of where I was and I just wanted to get back to the hotel. My room was on the second floor, so I climbed up the stairs, got to my room, had a glass of water and collapsed on the bed. A couple hours or so later, I woke up and felt miserable - like a truck had run me over! I was told that I had mild heat exhaustion. After only a mile run? Yes, my body was trying to get rid of the heat and it couldn't because the air temp was too high. I enjoy running, but my body isn't built for distance running. I think the furthest I've ever run is 5 miles - my hips and legs hurt too much after a long run, so hiking is a better option for me.

Years ago, we were in Chicago in August and wanted to go to the Botanic Gardens. It was miserably hot that day. I felt drained of energy as we walked from garden to garden. I thought it was 100 degrees that day, but it was only 89, but with 90% humidity. It felt like you could wring water out of the air. I'll take 110 and dry over high humidity. But no hiking when it's that hot out!

In my twenties I would run at the local Y. Nothing unique about that, but the track itself was interesting. It was a raised track that ran around the perimeter of the basketball court. Built of wood, it was supported on wall brackets above the height of the nets. It was just wide enough for one runner to pass another. I liked the slight spring of the wooden floor boards, and the soft thump of my feet as I ran, but what I really liked was that the corners were banked. At speed it was fun carving around those tight corners with your body at a sharp lean. It was strictly a men's club in those days. I and two other guys met once a week and we would run and run and run.

I don't know why, but I think I've seen something like that somewhere else. Or it could be something I saw on the internet. But I really think I saw it in person.

Sounds like a cool thing. If someone falls off the track, do they fall to the floor of the court? Sounds like it could be dangerous if the wrong people are using it.

There was a low railing. I guess you could go over it (about a 14' drop to the floor) but I never heard of anyone doing that. I liked it as a men's club. When they built the new Family Y, I didn't become a member - too big, too trendy, too many people.

Thanks!

I agree with Rixter. This is a good addiction to have.

As for your question, don't all addictions involve endorphins?

I don't know.

When I got to my car after hiking Mt Baldy, I don't think the endorphins were flowing. In fact, most times I'm on a hike, I don't feel the endorphin rush like when I'm running.

However, the beauty, clean air, smell of pines (some hikes), sounds ... those are things that I find addicting.

The last four sentences! Yes, that's the feeling. Peace!

In this part of Ontario the best way to get away is not by hiking, but by canoe. We are on the edge of the Canadian Shield - a very distinct geographical line left when the massive ice sheet retreated at the end of the last ice age. To the south of the line is rolling deep soil farmland; to the north of the line is forest and exposed rock. Most of the farmland hills run north and south - drumlins they are called - and are another legacy of the great moving ice sheet. Lakes, rivers and creeks are everywhere. The native Ojibway called it the land of shining waters (in their own tongue, of course). There are numerous canoe routes with marked portages throughout the region. Generally, after two portages, the civilized world is far away, and the experience (but without the altitude) is similar I'm sure to what you describe on your mountain hikes. Somehow, after returning, the hardship of the portages, and every other discomfort, become trifling complaints, and the pull to go back again to those wild places remains.

Sounds magical!

Here in So Cal, it takes a little work to get to a place of tranquility. Too many people here and the noises of the city are all around us.

The last place I lived was back in the canyon. 2 miles from the nearest tract and 2 miles from the highway. It was super quiet at night - and for that matter, pretty much all the time. When I moved back to cityish life about 4 years ago, I noticed all the noise! Trains, trucks, cars, workers, helicopters, planes, people ...

Though I do enjoy the short commute and having access to nearly anything I need within a few miles. There is a price to pay for convenience.

For a time I enjoyed the peace and tranquility of living on 25 acres twenty minutes from town. I wish I were still there. I live in a nice urban area, and I like my neighbours, but I'm still not used to having them within greeting distance. As John Lennon said, life is what happens to you while you are making other plans. Rural life though isn't for everyone. I remember an article in Mother Earth magazine about a guy who gave up his country cabin and moved back to the city. He said, "Everyone talks about the simplicity of country living. Just to keep warm I had to cut and haul wood, keep a fire going, carry out the ashes... Here, if I'm cold, I just turn up the thermostat - that's simplicity." I don't agree with his sentiments. I enjoy tending a wood stove. However, I understand why people choose to live in the city, and are willing, as you say, to pay the price for a city's conveniences.

I used to feel the same way about being on my boat, it was a lot of work and there was always something to do, but you could lay back and enjoy it sipping a beer listening to the stereo, the occasional wildlife stopping by to say hello, admiring your work and the design of the boat for hours on end, the jerk forward when the wind would suddenly catch the sails and flying flying across the water...Aye matey, it was a sad day when she went...

Yes, I've heard that being on a boat is addicting too!

It's peace and tranquility you crave....the place where you can achieve this is subjective I think, whether mountain top, deserted beach, or drifting along on a sailboat, perhaps even flying along in a small single engine Cessna, or cruising the weekend on your motorcycle or working for hours in your garage on some project...

Peace and tranquility are important and I do crave them. Walking on a deserted beach is awesome! Flying a a Cessna 172 - years ago I really wanted to get my pilots license, but I couldn't explain why. No motorcycle or boat for me, but driving my little convertible on mountain roads - yes, that's something I love. And working on projects - it clears my head too.

Many years ago, I was an avid mountain bike rider. I had figured our the draw - endorphins, beauty, speed, adventure, thrill seeking, but most important was that the world outside had to disappear or I'd crash, so at the start of every ride, I'd get into a place where I told myself to focus on the ride. Whether it was to focus on pedaling in triangles (most efficient for power), getting air when I could (looking for the right place on the trail to catch air), picking the best line around a corner or even just watching for ups and downs to gain momentum as needed.

Hiking high altitude is a little different. I'm thinking it's the thin air - it must do something to our brains.

Last weekend, I hiked Cucamonga Peak and by mid week, I was thinking of where I'd like to hike this weekend. Unfortunately, the forests are closed and there are only two hikes open in the area and the highest goes 5,000 feet or so. It's a good hike, but nowhere is the air thin. The other is 3,100 feet. I feel a bit bummed, but I'll make the most of it! At least I'll be outdoors!

The lower level of oxygen at higher altitudes might play into this, contributing to mental states. In the 1970s to the mid 1980s, some friends and I were casual climbers, with multiple ascents of Washington and Oregon peaks. There was always something uplifting about these.

Experiencing a glory (an optical phenomenon in which one's shadow is cast onto a lower cloud, resulting in an apparent halo around one's own head) just about has to be an endorphin pump. Sometimes you can see this from an airplane.

Lower levels of oxygen does doesn't help as I'm hiking, but when I get to the top, it sure feels good. Serene and peaceful, like there isn't a care in the world!

There's some high peaks on Washington and Oregon! I've never hikes Mt Hood, though I've seen it as we've driven through the area.

My dad grew up in Yakima, WA; I remember when I was a young boy, he would talk about Mt Rainier and his heart would sing! We lived outside of Chicago - flat land. I could tell he yearned for the mountains. I remember our summer trips - he would love going up into the mountains (Tenn, North Car, Georgia).

I think it has to do with a acclimating to the lower oxygen level, making your respiratory system more efficient. I was quite active in my late 40’s early 50’s, playing basketball at the ‘Y’ against 19-20 year olds.

I would visit a friend of mine in Colorado Springs. (+6,000 feet), we would go hiking. when I returned to the Midwest, not only did I sleep better, when I’d go to the ‘Y’, I could easily keep up and pass those 20 year olds on the court to their astonishment. Which wears off in a few days.

but I’d have to say, when hiking in the higher elevation, one needs to be healthy and in shape.

Not only high altitude, but in extreme cold weather!

Really interesting news link! Thanks.

Frozen CO2? Wow, I'm not headed out there anytime soon! I bet chapped lips are a big problem! And also frostbite.

And with Global Warming, we'll never see -98C again! Who knows, by next year, it may not even get to -60C and in a decade, we may be visiting the South Pole in shorts and tee shirts!

After a second day in higher altitude (went up to Cucamonga Peak yesterday), I know my lungs have started to acclimatize. Last night, I had to move a car to the train station - about 1/2 mile away. It's a very slight uphill to walk home and on days when I go on a strenuous hike, I don't like walking home - or walking anywhere.

After parking my car, I started my walk home. It felt like I was walking on air. Every slight grade felt like nothing and I wasn't short of air, not the least bit. Super easy!

When I was a kid, I remember watching football - many teams didn't like playing in Denver, because of the elevation.

For my 81st birthday, just over three weeks ago, A friend and I took a hike from Twin Bridges on Highway 50, elevation 6100ft, to 7600ft just above Avalanche lake. I grew up in the Rocky Mountains just north of Denver, and I have been over 14,000ft several times, so I know that hike was hardly high altitude, but the view from the top was indeed exhilarating. Ski sopes in the distance.

It was beautiful blue sky with just a few puffy clouds, and shirt-sleeve weather. Perfect!

Unfortunately, I just saw that today (August 29th), the Caldor fire burned over that entire area. So terribly sad!

Beautiful. That mountain landscape is more human-scaled than British Columbia, where I lived for a time. Everything was too big there. But even the rolling landscape of this part of Ontario is too extreme for some. A fellow I met from Texas said he couldn't stand the constant going up and down hills. He longed for flat open spaces - what people in the prairie provinces call the big sky country.

Gorgeous! Congrats on your 81st - I can only hope that I'll be able to be active at your age!

We're trying to plan a trip from Bend, OR to LA, but we keep hearing about the fires up north. I'm not sure if we should try the coast or if hwy 395 is a good idea. We'll have the top down, so we don't want to drive through smoky areas either.

Definitely NOT 395 for some time to come! It's too close to Lake Tahoe. All of South Lake Tahoe was evacuated today, due to the Caldor fire!

Thanks for the update.

Yesterday, I hiked Cucamonga Peak. 13.2 miles and 8,859 ft peak and 4,300 ft of elevation gain. It's not Alpine (above tree line), but it's a high peak. Lots of rocks on the trail and some slide areas. The lower part of the trail is really nice with old cabins (people live in them) and water (creek and water flowing across the trail in a few places). Then the switchbacks - long, but not too steep - just switchbacks! I made it to the saddle, then rested and ate some fruit. The next section was really neat, with great views and ups and downs. It passed by an old abandoned mine (large cable still there). The entrance was open, but I wasn't going to climb in. The last up and down was an up (when you're tired, an up isn't something to look forward to). Then to another saddle and a quick rest.

The final uphill was a bunch of switchbacks (over a dozen). Near the top, I could see the mountain rounding out and the slopes becoming less steep. The trees were shorter too (looks like a Bristlecone Pine). Then the final push to the top (no switchbacks, just straight up). It doesn't look too steep, but it was. Great views at the top! All the local peaks are visible (San Gorgonio, San Jacinto, Saddleback, Baldy, Ontario), the Cajon Pass and the desert to the north east. There was also something that concerned me. I could see rain over San Gorgonio. There were clouds forming over the Baldy, but no rain. I didn't want to come down in the rain (too slippery and flash flooding), so I headed down a little sooner than I wanted.

To me, it felt like a shorter version of the Mt Wilson Trail, but at higher altitude. The rocky trail is also painful on my feet - I don't wear hiking boots or even trail runners, so I feel large rocks through the sole of my shoes. I like wearing running shoes, because they're lighter, grippy and responsive, however on trails like this, I should've worn my trail runners.

When I got to my car, I had the same feeling as last weekend. I don't have a desire to go back, but we'll see how I feel tomorrow or later in the week.

The Bohr-Haldane effect and the Lactate paradox.

The beneficial effects of altitude on health and longevity have been documented, as seen from a reduced rate of cancer and heart disease from living at altitude, rather than more cancer from increased exposure to UV radiation. Reduced oxygen pressure relative to carbon dioxide can have a beneficial effect on cellular respiration, and the clean, fresh air and sunlight adds to the experience.

That's great to hear! I definitely feel the effect of high altitude and even though it hasn't been a week, I'm craving it!

After the 17th, I think the trails will be open again. Until then ...

This article has a number of references on the subject:

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/altitude-mortality.shtml

I'm very far from being a doctor, so I could well be mistaken, but that article is way too wordy; it reminds me of these long infomercials that go on and on and on about why their product is so great. To me, the counter-intuitive stuff there makes about as much sense as your tag line.

I did not check any of the references listed at the bottom of the article, but I also saw nothing to indicate "raypeat" as a reliable source of medical information.

I have enjoyed his articles because of the breadth of references he includes, particularly the older and Russian research.

I believe his PhD is for biology (physiology and endocrinology).

It's been over two weeks (Aug 29th) since I've been in high altitude and I miss the feeling! On Sept 5th, I did a mild hike (3.1K ft elevation) and while in Grants Pass, I did a small hike at around 1.3K ft elevation. Though we did drive through a pass at 5.4K ft.

I am craving a high elevation hike - looking forward to getting home and hitting a nice hike on Sunday - and our forest hiking trails will be open!

It’s a (pick one);

a.) dopamine

b.) serotonin

c.) oxytocin

d.) endorphins

e.) all of the above

and your going through withdrawal… hang in there…

Well, it's been over a year an I haven't been back to Mt Baldy. The week after I did Baldy (2021), I hiked Cucamonga Peak. I wanted to get back up there, but life got in the way and I haven't been in high altitude since.

Two months ago, I got Covid - it was pretty bad and not only was my body weaker, but there's a strange disconnect between my brain and my muscles. When I run, I can't push my legs to run fast. When I hike, my legs don't work right - I lose balance far too often. In fact, last weekend, I hiked Jones Peak (it's a nice steep one that's a few minutes from my house). When I was coming down, I ran some sections - like I normally do. I was running down a nice, fairly straight section and I lost my balance and nearly fell. My left leg crossed in front of my right - I can't remember ever doing this before, but it happened. I had a good pace and if I would've fallen, it would've been a bad one. As I stumbled, I grabbed a shrub with my right hand, which was enough to straighten me out. I slowed to a walk and shook it off. I've also noticed that my handwriting is terrible. It's hard for me to line up the letters and it's super sloppy - unless I try really hard, it just looks bad.

Last night, I was thinking about Mt Baldy again! I don't feel comfortable hiking the Devil's Backbone section, because a slip up means a 1000+ foot slide on either side - this is where a lot of the deaths occur.

Something in me is craving this. I really, really want to go, but I don't want to die up there either. And with my brain-muscle disconnect, I don't know if I could even make it to the top and down (physically).

There's another trail up there called the 3T's. Timber, Telegraph and Thunder Mountain - crest all three in one day. 14.5 miles (so they say), but I've heard it's closer to 16. Elevation gain is 4,885 ft. Mt Wilson Trail is 14.5 miles and 5,640 ft of E! The difference is that Mt Wilson is 3,000 feet shorter than the 3T's, so thin air will be an issue - but it's also what draws me to it.

It's getting late in the year. I think next weekend will be okay - definitely don't want snow or too cold temps.