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Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/08/2021 6:40 PM

I guess you have heard this many times; "they don't make them like they used to". A refrigerator that would last 40 years has been replaced by one that lasts only 5-10 years. Same for all major consumer goods and cars. Is it because technology is progressing so fast that industry can't keep up with new changes or is it because industry has adopted "planned obsolescence". I subscribe to the latter. That places the consumer at a disadvantage. It's one thing to have a warranty on whatever you buy, but still there are pitfalls and unnecessary steps that favor commence over the public. I have seen cases where women in Japan would strike en-force against a product that cost more than in the past. When money is involved in other countries, people will demonstrate . People here seem to just accept it as inevitable and do nothing about it. A few voices will make themselves heard, but never enough to afford change. Industry just sweeps it under the carpet and hopes others won't notice. There was a time when we Americans would demonstrate against big business when people worked hard for their money, not to throw it away on poor quality goods. This was back in the early 1900's when money was hard to acquire except for the robber barons and railroad tycoons. Will we ever return to an earlier period in time when we got paid for a good days work and get what we worked for. I guess I am of the older generation where I learned that you got paid a fair wage for a good days work. People today seem to work as little as possible and get paid for more than they're worth. I inherited a work ethic from my parents who were from immigrants to this country and that ethic is still alive in me. I guess that's why I'm not rich.

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#1

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/08/2021 7:11 PM

Sometime things change for a reason.

Take farm tractors for instance. Initial, the tractor was sized for its Horse Power..l built strong, and durable. Then it was discovered that these heavy tractors compressed the soil, and hurt plant growth, co then tractors started to become lighter. Change steel shrouds it’s plastic. More efficient ICE, …

do these tractors last longer… for the most part, yes. But there is a gap. Earlier tractors hour meter usually break around 5,000 hours, usually one ones with a cab, and the console is left out to the elements. They still run, but no one knows how many hours.

later model tractors, with a cab… 10,000, 12,000, 15,000 hours and still strong… if maintained.

Newer cars last longer, but that’s mainly due to better roads.

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#9
In reply to #1

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 1:48 PM

The reason the mechanical hour meters fail is because the grease solidifies over time,and lock up the gears.A de greasing and cleaning and re lube with a long life grease usually fixes them,sometimes with a new drive cable.

You could actually own the entire tractor.It was yours,lock,stock and barrel.

You can't do that anymore.

A nearby lightning strike can damage the software on a modern tractor,and the repair can only be performed by the dealer,since only they have access to the software.

A class action lawsuit has been lodged against the major tractor manufacturers to allow the farmers access to the repair and diagnostic software.

We will see who wins this case.I am betting on BIG MONEY winning,as usual.

IMHO: To quote an unknown source:"A good judge is one that stays bought."

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#12
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 3:34 PM

A little off topic,… John Deere is what started the rights to intellectual software property. It’ll be interesting how that turns out.

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#15
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 4:50 PM
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#26
In reply to #15

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/10/2021 12:39 PM

One positive item from this administration… was it luck?

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#28
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/10/2021 1:35 PM

This action was started long before this administration took office.It was started by a lot of farmers protesting against John Deere,among others.When the voices got loud enough,they were heard.

Farmers are the most overworked and underpaid people in the world.

Biden is merely bowing to public pressure to disallow that which never should have been allowed in the first place.

I predict that the manufacturers will make individual components impossible to remove by encapsulating them in epoxy.

This can be removed by soaking in Acetone overnight to get access to the individual components.

I have repaired some boards like this,just to see if it could be done.I enjoy fixing things rather than kicking them to the curb.I cannot kick a car to the curb when the ashtrays get full.

As my gran-pappy used to say:

"Use it up,fix it up, wear it out,make it work,make it do."

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#41
In reply to #28

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/11/2021 1:28 AM

Biden may have bowed to the public pressure, for now… it was the right thing to do, until big corporate money trumps public pressure and Biden and/or his son flips to the money.

As far as manufacturers making components impossible to fix. They already have.

take small gas power equipment. The carburetors are adjusted to pass EPA regulations. They run like crap, there was a time where you could take special screwdriver and adjust them to run like they’re supposed to, but they no longer meet EPA standards. What do manufacturers do, they mold over the adjustment capabilities.

Echo gas trimmers is a prime example to this.

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#2

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/08/2021 8:01 PM

Want a table that will last? Buy it from an Amish carpenter. It is the last table you will ever need.

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#3

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/08/2021 8:31 PM

Planned obsolescence is a real thing. It was invented by a cartel of light bulb manufacturers.

Here’s the truth about the ‘planned obsolescence’ of tech - BBC Future

But part of the problem is that consumers place price above other attributes such as quality. (This process is made more efficient by the internet.) The result is that lowest price, lowest quality forces everything else out of the marketplace.

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#4
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/08/2021 11:40 PM

It's inflation that is the culprit...over time the dollar loses value and to keep prices that look reasonable to the consumer, the manufacturer must make a cheaper product...

In 1960 an item that cost $100 now cost nearly a $1000...If I can build it for half cost then it's only $500....If I can build it for one quarter the cost, it's only $250....and it seems reasonable...

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

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#5
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 10:34 AM

It's inflation that is the culprit...

I can't disagree with you there, invisible tax on those who saved for old age.

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#7
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 12:19 PM

That's why you should never save your money in dollars....invest it and diversify your investment...

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 1:31 PM

IMHO:

A good indicator of inflation and barometer of public confidence in the economy is the price of gold.

In the '60's it was around $35 an ounce.Look at it now.

And yes,quality is gone with the wind.

Our landfills are full of obsolete computers,printers,modems,clothes,etc. all in the name of getting the latest computer or other hi tech device,or the latest styles.

I have a 1948 Harry Ferguson "TE20" tractor,and a 1948 Allis Chambers"C".

They still run good and are capable of a good day's work.

How many modern tractors will be around in 70+ years?

There will be no software available to run them.

Taxes and government actions drive inflation,eroding the buying power,which feeds the need for more income,which leads to higher wages,and higher prices."Free Money" is never free.More money in circulation means higher prices.

Prices are going up now,but we ain't seen nothing yet.

Covid has had an effect on the world economy,but it has been amplified by greedy corporations by using it as a whipping boy to take the blame for their price increases.

The "lumber cartels" are a good example of this.

Proof:Sales Volumes are down,but profits are up.

And the beat down goes on.

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#10
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 1:55 PM

Inflation also allows the US to service its debt and increases wealth.....so there's that

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#17
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 8:23 PM

It increases wealth--- for the wealthy--so there's that.

But they are about the only ones who benefit.

The working class dog is always playing catch up with inflation,but never does.

The buying power of money decreases with inflation.

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#18
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 9:12 PM

The wealthy are the ones who create the jobs, a rising tide lifts all boats...You are the master of your own destiny, be it working class dog, as you say, or small business owner, it's your own life choices that determine your fate, generally speaking of course....you can't win if you don't play....

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#13
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Re: Product quality and work ethics

10/09/2021 3:37 PM

Companies hire statisticians to take the existing data to determine product life and based their warranty off of the data… so that their product doesn’t last forever, and in most cases, faults out or fails soon after the warranty expires.

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#6

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/09/2021 10:35 AM

"...and that ethic is still alive in me. I guess that's why I'm not rich."

Look at this beautiful rocking chair. It was designed and built by the late Sam Maloof. He sold them for $20,000 each, and he had months of backlog orders (they now sell at auction for about $50,000). Maloof was a man who "got paid for a good day's work". In his senior years he enjoyed blasting around in his Porsche. There are other examples of individuals who work without compromising their integrity, and find an appreciative public. So, all is not lost.

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#11
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/09/2021 2:30 PM

Walmart $150

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#14
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/09/2021 4:23 PM

Sam Maloof was not competing with Walmart. He knew that, and so did his clients. There is a cabinetmaker in our area who sells his chairs for $12,000 each. He too is not competing with Walmart. Generally, wealthy clients commission him to design and build an entire room of furniture. Kudos to him. Not many craftsmen get to where he is. He can work without compromise, using the finest materials, and certain people are glad to pay him for it. No planned obsolescence at this level.

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#16
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/09/2021 5:08 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...there are people that buy their furniture for comfort, and there are people that buy furniture as an investment....apples and oranges....who wants to live in a museum, your furniture choices do not define who you are....

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#19
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/09/2021 9:35 PM

A Sam Maloof rocker is intended to be used, not looked at. I have studied the joinery he used in their construction. He was always a critic of makers of precious furniture, that is, furniture that is so refined and delicate that you almost dare not touch it. In a few years that ugly Walmart rocker will be in the dumpster. In one hundred years a Maloof rocker will still be young. I think one's furniture choices do define and declare who you are, just as do one's choice of clothes, and one's choice of car. I recall an interior shot of a famous pop singer's house. It was stuffed with gilded, Rococo-style furniture. It was unutterably vulgar and ostentatious. It told me all I needed to know about him.

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#20
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 12:28 AM

In 1970, I spent a summer studying in the UP of Michigan. While there, my wife found this maple furniture made in Tell City, Indiana. A long series of coincidences made it possible for us to buy a dining room set, pick it up at the factory, and haul it behind our VW Squareback to California.

Over 51 years later, the only thing that makes it clear that it's not a brand new set are the marks on the armchair that I sit in for hours every day, and where I've worn the coloring off the front rung by putting my shoe there.

Quality Lasts!

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#39
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 11:16 PM

Tell City!!

You just hit me with a reminiscence mine! I spent the better part of 1978 in Tell City coordinating the refrigeration installation on an Alaska king-crab catcher/processor boat (or ship).

When I was there, the main industries were a General Electric fractional horsepower factory, Tell City Chair Company (colonial-style furniture), and Maxon Marine Industries, which was kind of a barge yard going back to WW-II.

Because of an extremely rapid ramp-up of the Alaska crab fleet, with many shipyards around the country being booked up, this little barge yard got wrapped up in a project kind of over their heads. It came out all right in the end, but the yard was nearly bankrupted. The boat being built, F/V Bountiful, which became a Bering Sea highliner, was where I got the "Tornado" nickname.

Tell City is named after William Tell, the legendary archer. I could write (or could have written) a book about all of this, but by now most of the players in the adventure are no longer living.

Thank you for reviving these memories.

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#40
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 11:30 PM

Tell City!!

You just hit me with a reminiscence mine! I spent the better part of 1978 in Tell City coordinating the refrigeration installation on an Alaska king-crab catcher/processor boat (or ship).

When I was there, the main industries were a General Electric fractional horsepower factory, Tell City Chair Company (colonial-style furniture), and Maxon Marine Industries, which was kind of a barge yard going back to WW-II.

Because of an extremely rapid ramp-up of the Alaska crab fleet, with many shipyards around the country being booked up, this little barge yard got wrapped up in a project kind of over their heads. It came out all right in the end, but the yard was nearly bankrupted. The boat being built, F/V Bountiful, which became a Bering Sea highliner, was where I got the "Tornado" nickname.

Tell City is named after William Tell, the legendary archer. I could write (or could have written) a book about all of this, but by now most of the players in the adventure are no longer living.

Thank you for reviving these memories.

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#21
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 4:46 AM

Personally I get tired of the same ol same ol, and like to change my surroundings periodically...a rut is a grave with the ends kicked out...You don't have to worry about cheap furniture getting damaged or lost in a fire or theft, and if you get tired of looking at it, or it breaks or gets stained or something, you can just replace it with something new...Now it's true I have some expensive furniture, but I'm not that attached to it...I prefer solid wood over particle board, I would never buy a piece of furniture or cabinet made out of particle board...and I have built furniture in the past, some I still own, not likely to ever sell that...The truth is I've given away more furniture than I've bought...but I could never justify paying $10,000+ for a rocking chair, though I have been looking at an $8k massage chair, but doesn't seem worth it either...Although I did just buy a $1k x-chair...

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#22
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 7:46 AM

As I said previously,the landfills are full of out-of-fashion clothes and furniture and appliances that are made to barely exceed the warranty.

A friend of mine was in TV repair business,and he had a contract with a large motel to repair all of their tv sets.

A wave of flyback transformers failed,just out of warranty by 2 weeks.

Now that is precise engineering!

No help from the factory,just a "Sorry 'bout that.--tsk tsk"

The problem is not with the workers,it is with management philosophy.

Some Japanese cars are made here in the States by American labor,and the quality is very good.

The American made vehicle focus on quarterly returns,not long term loyalty from the customers.GM is a good example.They should have been allowed to go bankrupt,as would any other company.They had too much campaign money invested to lose;that is what was meant by "Too big to fail".

And the list goes on under this guise.

Big corporations never die,they just reorganize under a different name,with the same leadership.A fresh chance to do again what they did in the past.

When an executive retires,he gets a very generous package,but the company takes out a life insurance policy on him worth more than all of his compensation combined,and since the company owns the policy,the claim money is not taxable.What a racket!

Short-term profit and screw the long term reputation.By the time the shiite hits the fan,they have moved on to a different company,with accolades for the amazing profits they made at the previous company.

His replacement has to deal with the recalls and repercussions,so he is forced to cut costs even further,and the cycle repeats,ad nauseam.

I repair,not replace most of the "Not repairable by user" products,but they are making it more difficult all the time by integrating more and more functions into software,with proprietary access;Surface mount components are a real bi*ch to replace.And lots of software is embedded into the chips so you cannot use an off-the-shelf replacement,it must be programmed to be useful.And of course,only the factory has the software. Even simple 4pin or 8 pin through the board chips.

Old fogies like me are a dying breed.

"We say Sir and we say Mam and if you don't like that we don't give a dam*."

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#23
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 9:25 AM

I don't bother to fix anything anymore, I just drop kick it to the curb and move on...life is too short...

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 11:05 AM

What a terrible attitude! That's essentially what several of us have been complaining about: concern only for immediate wants, with no regard for the coming generations (of plants and other animals, as well as people) or the livability of the future Earth.

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#27
In reply to #23

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 12:48 PM

I feel I’m slipping that way too…. Whether it fix/repairing to building or carpentry… still cabinet building is good yet.

I love puttering around…enjoyed doing it, or to save money…. Just a few years ago, I’d would re-shingle the roof, or work on the car… I would do this because I was frugal, and somewhat enjoyed it,… I really don’t care to work on cars. Frankly, now, I’m beginning to get selective on what I do… roofing no,..l that’s for a younger fellow. Change the exhaust on car… bring it in and have it done… change break pads, or rotors… I’ll still do that.

sure I’m still frugal… but after doing things like that for so long… I’m at an age where I enjoy comfort and can afford to have it done.

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#30
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 3:27 PM

I'm the same way, I used to fix everything, now it's just too hard for me, and like you I can afford to have it done....I wouldn't call that a 'terrible attitude'...

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#34
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 5:42 PM

Having service done on a vehicle is not the same as repairing a defective part.

A service department at a dealership will use new parts,and charge exorbitant fees.

I pay to have my oil changed because they recycle the oil and I can afford it.

I bought my car new and the only time it has been back to the dealer was an air bag recall.I change my timing belts,plugs,etc.

I could afford to have it done,but I do not trust the quality of work at the dealerships.

I change everything under the timing cover;belts,idlers,tensioner,water pump.

About a 90 minute job if you have done it before and have your tools laid out in advance

The dealer will charge labor for each of these jobs individually as if they had to start from scratch,without considering the fact that they have already removed the cover,and it is about 5 minutes extra labor.

And when the cover is back on,you don't know if they really did what they said they did.And they will not let you watch them.

I rank dealership services on the same level as lawyers and politicians and coprolite.

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#44
In reply to #34

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 1:48 AM

IMO, Having doing service on the vehicle on your own, is part of the title of the thread…. It’s called ‘work ethic’…

remember, 50 years ago, a car manuals would show you how to adjust your valves… today, car owners manuals tells you not to drink the battery acid.

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#42
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 1:41 AM

Coming off the farm, and having a sawmill, we built a lot of our own buildings, about 4-5 years ago, my older brother who has the farm built a 80x200 shop/storage building with 16’ side walls and a 4-12 pitch roof.

I helped with the putting in the purlins between the trusses, my brother who in his 60’s, was hesitant to go up there, I was surprised, he always was the first to do that… I volunteered, where, I’m also in my 60’s… and he asked are you sure, I said no, I don’t want to… it’s phqin high up there… but was putting my fall gear on anyways… then his son, mentioned, his friend is coming over, and they’ll do it.

And I let them with put on the fall gear. And I cut the purlins to length and let them hoist it up.

no, it’s not a bad attitude, And not going up there is smart, because I have nothing to prove. I’ve done it, but as you age, I’ve noticed, I’m not as quick to react, (still quicker then most 20 year olds), but I also notice my vertigo isn’t as good as it used to be… it’s smart, not a terrible attitude. I’d rather call it passing the torch.

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#59
In reply to #30

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/13/2021 11:38 PM

Back in the December of 1989, I was putting in an order to build the fastest computer around. RAM was $500.00/meg I could not get hold of the guy. Until after the New year 1990.

In that time between December 1989 to January 1990, RAM from $500/meg to $100/meg… I took that savings and got a bigger monitor. Even with the parts and assembling it myself… it was expensive…

now, I just bought a Alienware m15 R4, RTX 3080 15.6 inch Gaming Laptop FHD (Full HD) - Intel Core i7-10870H, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 8GB GDDR6, Windows 10 Home - Lunar Light (Latest Model) which is arriving on Tuesday…

it’ll be great with my dual 32” monitors… but I’m only bragging now…

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#63
In reply to #59

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 6:26 AM

If the current trend is extended,with more power for lower price,eventually you will be able to get an infinite amount of processing power for free.!()

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#69
In reply to #63

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 10:23 AM

In college 35ish years ago. In my computer science class, we discussed Moore’s law.

“ What Is Moore's Law? Moore's Law refers to Gordon Moore's perception that the number of transistors on a microchip doubles every two years, though the cost of computers is halved.”

it was suppose to top off at around 2010?…

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#29
In reply to #22

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 3:16 PM

..."As I said previously the landfills are full of out-of-fashion clothes and furniture and appliances that are made to barely exceed the warranty."...

Well we recycle and compost around here....so not so much...

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#33
In reply to #29

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 5:28 PM

Well what exactly is it that you kick to the curb?

Out of fashion clothes,obsolete computers or phones?

Will polyester blend clothes compost well?

100%cotton will rot but polyester/nylon will not.

Do you recycle your aluminum cans,plastic bottles,glass,metal food cans,do you separate the glass according to color,the plastic according to type?

Composting is fine for the garden, but the above items do not compost very well.

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 5:57 PM

Clothes, furniture and stuff, goes to good will...plastic, glass, paper/cardboard, metals etc go to recycling...Yard waste goes to composting facility...Electronics are recycled as well...Everything here is picked up from the curb

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 10:15 AM

Well, that is where we differ. I would never tire of looking at the rocking chair shown in my Post #6, and I fully understand why people lined up to pay Sam Maloof $20,000 to make them one.

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#31
In reply to #24

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 4:00 PM
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#37
In reply to #31

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 8:39 PM

Don't get me started.

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#38
In reply to #6

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 10:42 PM

Separating fools from their money must be one of the highest callings. This guy was surely good at it.

Have you ever heard of the simile "as skittish as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs"?

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#49
In reply to #38

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 9:23 AM

Your comment suggests that Sam Maloof duped people into paying an exorbitant price for shoddy goods. My opinion, shared by many, is that a Maloof rocker is one of the finest rocking chair designs ever conceived and built.

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#45
In reply to #6

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 1:50 AM

$20,000 is too much… let that be someone else’s heirloom.

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#50
In reply to #45

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 9:29 AM

People lined up to buy a Sam Maloof rocker - hardly an indication that he was charging too much. But if you didn't want to pay $20,000 then, if you are lucky, you might be able to get one for $50,000 now.

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#55
In reply to #50

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 6:10 PM

I don’t disagree, it’s just not for me…

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#32

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 4:30 PM

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#36
In reply to #32

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/10/2021 8:36 PM

A good video of one of my craftsman heros. My favourite Maloof quote in it: "Who is Brad Pitt?"

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#43
In reply to #32

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 1:43 AM

I love the Japanese glueless joinery… that is a craft I’ll never be able to master. With their hand tools.

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#46
In reply to #43

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 5:48 AM

I agree with you.

Their knowledge of using nature's own strengths to construct very durable structures and furniture is amazing.

Imagine building a bridge with no screws,nails or concrete that will last hundreds of years.Their joints are designed to get stronger under load.

A hammer head joint on curved furniture is an example.I has to be done manually and very carefully.

Some of their buildings have withstood earthquakes that would have made dust out of modern buildings,and all without mortar or nails.

Imagine an inverted cone sitting atop a single pedestal and you have the general idea.Not exactly,but you get the idea.

And the really amazing part is they use basic hand tools to do this as they have for thousands of years.

Here is a link to beautiful joinery,all done by hand and self reinforcing without glue or nails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2_dshdTcU

I wish I could do that!

They respect tradition and pass on and add to the knowledge from their fore bearers.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 5:52 AM

In Japan they have contests to see who can hand plane the thinnest layer of wood.

The thinnest layers can be seen through,almost single wood cells.

They must be using obsidian for the blades,which can be as sharp as 1 molecule thick.

Here is a link to one of their competitions.

Some of the layers look like smoke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6QzM4aFjjg

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#48
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 6:07 AM

8 Microns thick!

Imagine layering these in a cross link pattern into a sheet of veneer!One could probably see to the bottom layer,with a 3d effect.At any rate,it would be amazing.I am surprised no one has tried this yet.

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#52
In reply to #48

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 12:01 PM

My prediction would be that if those plane shavings were glued to a veneer thickness, the result would be as opaque as any other veneer. I have, however, seen photographs of wooden goblets turned so thin that they are translucent - a display of the turner's skill, but of doubtful usefulness.

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#74
In reply to #52

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 1:58 PM

Here is an interesting link about making wood transparent.It may work on these thin layers as well as on balsa wood.

https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2020/10/01/transparent-wood-could-be-window-future

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#77
In reply to #74

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 4:56 PM

Well, there you go. I wonder if they could eventually get the process to work with thicker wood - then the window would have strength and the advantage of the insulating value of wood. Large glass windows don't have a lot of appeal here in the Great White North. When it's 30 below you don't want to feel connected to nature. You want your house to feel like a fortress against the elements. Also, with respect to wood windows, maybe with partial treatment, translucent privacy windows could be made - with an attractive wood grain pattern still showing. Interesting development.

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#54
In reply to #48

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 6:09 PM

If I had a tool lthat could do that… I’d never get lost because all I had to do is follow my blood trail… if I didn’t pass out first…

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#53
In reply to #46

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 6:07 PM

Yep,

here’s a bridge…

one more thing…. Is how barns were built and the intricate joints for long spans with no supports for doors in a hay mow.

I wish I could have taken a picture of the joints (wood joints, not the other kind of joints ) of our barn… I was working the mow… near the door, where I first noticed it, and I mention to my older brother, they never notice it… when I told my dad, we had to show him, because we could describe it. we were all impressed.

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 7:43 PM

Your post affirms my assertion that timber framing skills, using joinery alone to hold a building (or bridge) together were not the exclusive province of the Japanese. The bridge design shown was from Leonardo da Vinci's sketchbook. That said, I greatly admire Japanese timber framing. Years ago I had a beautiful book of line drawings of Japanese timber framing joints, explaining where and why they were used in a structure (unfortunately loaned the book to a carpenter friend and never saw it again). I particularly like their tradition of incorporating into the frame at least one natural timber - a section of a tree trunk chosen for its interesting shape - as a constant reminder to the inhabitants that every element of the framework came from a living thing.

Fortunately I do still have Ted Benson's book, "Building the Timber Frame House: The Revival of a Forgotten Craft". (1980) Ted Benson built timber frame houses in New England, and knows what he is talking about. Again, the various joints, and where and why they are used. How it all goes together. Load tables for various wood species, spans, continuous and point loads... No need to go to Japan to find buildings that depend solely on wood joinery for structural integrity. The old Market Hall in my town has a timber framed roof exposed to the interior. The bottom chords of the timber trusses span the full width of the building - they must be sixty feet long.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 8:43 PM

Yes it is, still impressed no matter who came up with it.

capentry skills is the same as making a sword… an apprentice working years under a master.

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#58
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/12/2021 11:25 PM

There are many types of carpenter.The framing carpenter mainly does the rough in stage,framing wall,etc.

The finish carpenter usually does the inside trim,molding,etc.

Stained molding requires more skill because you cannot fill cracks with putty before painting.

It is hard to find a very skilled finish carpenter that can do stained trim flawlessly in USA.They are here,but they are few and far between.

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 12:13 AM

This relates to why internal corners of molding should be coped rather than mitered. These days, I'm not sure that much of anyone knows what a coping saw is and when it should be used.

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#62
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 12:45 AM

OK. I have two coping saws, but I'm not sure why internal corners of molding should be coped rather than mitered.

Is this so the irregularities of the coped cut prevent vertical movement? Please educate!

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#64
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 6:31 AM

In either case it needs to be sanded to perfection, walls are seldom straight, floors are seldom flat, so cutting a perfect 90° in a trim piece, generally needs tweaking for a perfect fit...

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#65
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 7:29 AM

If the corners of the wall are not perfectly square,(which is rarely the case)the mitered joint will not be a perfect fit.

The coped corner will allow for a deviation in the corner angle and still give a very precise fit,if the coping is done right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+cope+an+inside+corner+molding#kpvalbx=_-xNoYYnEArbMytMP3tOp6Ao49

Crown molding is a little more difficult:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MT9iVtiOEY

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#71
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Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 12:54 PM

Thanks, but that linked video did NOT really show me how he was cutting, nor why. This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ21WE4KGfw one did.

On the other hand, neither of those videos showed me anything that a careful adjustment of the miter angle wouldn't also take care of. CS's post #68 gave me at least a hint...

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#73
In reply to #71

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 1:44 PM

Oops. That was CS's post #66.

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#66
In reply to #62

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 9:51 AM

Moulding (Canadian spelling) is not coped to accommodate out of square wall corners, as another poster has asserted. A mitre saw can be tweaked for that. A coped joint handles seasonal wood movement better than a mitred joint. Wood expands and contracts with seasonal changes in humidity. This movement is across the grain, not lengthwise. Also, there could be uncertainty about the moisture content of the newly installed moulding. If it has not been dried properly, then it will shrink across the grain after it is installed. Both seasonal movement and wood shrinkage after installation causes the cut angle of a mitre joint to change, and a gap will open in the joint. In a coped joint there is no angle subject to change from these causes. There will still be some effect on the joint integrity, but not nearly as pronounced as with a mitre joint. Further, a gap that opens in a mitre joint is very visible because it goes all the way through to the floor or wall, which is obvious and unsightly, particularly when seen from straight on, whereas any smaller gap that might occur in a coped joint will not be as visible because even when looked at from a broad range of angles, from all those angles, the gap, if there is one, will have the wood of the adjacent moulding directly behind it, tending to obscure it.

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#76
In reply to #66

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 4:43 PM

Oh, and the other reason for coping inside corners of moulding is this: If the joint is mitred, when the pieces are finish nailed to the wall it often results in the joint opening slightly from the clamping pressure of the nails. If coped, the uncoped piece is first nailed in place, then the coped piece. The clamping pressure of the nails on the coped piece will not tend to open the joint. This, and the reasons given in my last post I think is a complete list. Again, walls out of square are not the primary reason for coping. Micro adjustments to a mitre saw to accommodate out of square walls is no big deal, but wood movement and shrinkage, and nail clamping pressure opening the joint are big deals (if you are fussy about the appearance both in the immediate and long term).

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#70
In reply to #62

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 10:48 AM

If you are toward the middle of a room, looking at a mitered internal corner, any gap is likely to be visible. For a coped corner, you would need to be against a wall, looking in just the right direction, to see such a gap. In other words, a coped corner is likely to appear more seamless.

As SE notes, sometimes surfaces are not parallel, flat, or perpendicular. Then even on external corners you have to do odd miters like 46°-46° rather than 45°-45°.

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 1:40 PM

With compound miter cut can be difficult.

I wrote an excel program to solve for the settings positioning of you blade angle and miter settings where it works great, it surprised me.

I did have a 5HP Delta Unisaw table saw and a Incra 5000 miter (very accurate)

For the excel program for solving compound meter cuts just go here and then go to

Step 23: Fitting and Installing the Cupola

Where you can download the excel sheet.

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#75
In reply to #72

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 3:21 PM

That garden shed is a nice piece of craftsmanship. Well done!

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 5:12 PM

Thanks Tornado… wife feels pretty good about it too… tells her friends she designed it. And she did… lol

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#61
In reply to #58

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 12:25 AM

It might be hard for you to find a skilled finish carpenter, but it is not hard if you know such a person.

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#68
In reply to #61

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 10:19 AM

It’s nice to have a brother-in-law who is… and you get the family discount.

but it’s usually made up at Christmas time.

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#51
In reply to #43

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/11/2021 10:15 AM

I agree, but qualify my agreement. The traditional Japanese woodworking and timber framing guilds were fiercely competitive, and this resulted sometimes in joinery that was unnecessarily complex. There is also, here in the West, an over-reverence for the Japanese tradition of building without nails. The Japanese did not have a monopoly on building without metal fasteners. The European builders also relied on joinery alone to hold their furniture and buildings together. When the European timber framers came to North America, they had access to what appeared to them, an inexhaustible supply of timbers in unprecedented dimensions and lengths. Thus, many of splicing joints they had used in Europe became unnecessary, and the practical minded Yankees dispensed with them without regret. The American timber frames are simpler, but no less strong than those in the Old Country - and I hasten to add, built without nails, spikes, bolts, or rods.

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#67

Re: Product Quality and Work Ethics

10/14/2021 10:16 AM

I was at our local big box store (Fleet Farn, that’s regional) and in the tool section, they had titanium tools… I think it was The new Craftsman?… not sure didn’t pay much attention because of the price. Didn’t have my cell phone on me otherwise I would have took a picture of it…. I’ll do it next time I’m there,… if they didn’t sell it out.

but I did pick one up, and it was lightweight… and the price is in line with Snap-On… maybe a little bit higher…

I was impress but it’s not for diy’rs.

yah… quality may be there… but you pay for it.

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