Chinese spy balloon

Do we know they didn't use a inert practice warhead?

Honestly I don't know for sure but I didn't see a black smoke or flame explosion in the video.

I retract that message. On a closer look I do see flame and black smoke when the missile hit. Sorry for the confusion.

A practice missile, no warhead, is still possible despite it being more difficult to pierce the balloon with one projectile instead of an energetic cloud of shrapnel. I expect part if not all of the observed flame and black smoke came from a self destruct charge designed to obliterate the payload from prying eyes. This would also explain why little of the electronics has been retrieved.

I suspect much of what you say is true although an Aim9X, even with a dummy warhead, would have little trouble penetrating the balloon at Mach 2.5, IMO.

But it has since been revealed that they did use a live warhead for the shoot.

I haven't heard anything about a self-destruct device being used or even present though the recovery teams apparently operated with the assumption that there may be one, just in case.

Well, open the canopy and haul out your trusty shotgun!!!!!

Or give Felix Baumgartner that shotgun and ask him to shoot on his way down!!

Or we could drop off Slim Pickens with a sharp needle and let him ride it down.

Yeeeeee Haw!!!!!

This is not a party balloon.

Weather balloons are not fully inflated when launched.They are under-inflated to allow for expansion at high altitudes.Watch them being launched,and they look like a teardrop,with plenty of room for expansion.

I am sure the Chinese planned it well.

Hooker touched off on that inflation at altitude.

If you wanted to maintain a certain pressure and altitude, an onboard compressor and storage tank would do it.

Pump from the balloon into the tank to lower pressure,and opposite to raise pressure/altitude.

Alternatively, a pressure regulator that vented to atmosphere to lower, or prevent over inflation,and refill from a tank,powered by solar cells or batteries.This thing is huge,it could carry a very heavy load.

That would be a canister of helium???

Need to keep it simple… I don’t want to take this too far off topic.

Or just pre-inflate with a given amount of gas to maintain a given altitude with a measured payload and not waste payload mass with superfluous equipment.

Unless your intention is to safely land it. But I doubt that the ChiCom's had that expectation or intention.

As I've written elsewhere the only major altitude deviation would be from day/night temperature changes.

I get that these are not party balloons. I used to help launch balloons out of NASA Wallops Island when I had free time while flying missions out of there.

The balloons used were a fixed size and were inflated with helium. The cubic feet of gas put into the balloon was pre-determined to acquire the desired maximum altitude at a mean temperature with a specific payload weight.

It was all very precisely calculated before release. The only variation in desired altitude was air temperature changes during flight, especially considering day/night differences.

And, of course, it was highly desirable not to over inflate the balloon on the ground so as not to risk taking the balloon above the tensile strength rating of the skin at altitude.

The Chicom balloon appeared nearly spherical, and seemed to be near full inflation at that altitude. That's why I question being able to pierce the skin to achieve a controlled gas release.

A properly designed and inflated balloon will have near ambient air pressure at defined altitude,so small holes will not work.

I'll just go back to hunting Geese and ducks if i can find my pistol.

Well, I think there are other factors at play. At altitude the skin will possibly be stretched taught and may want to collapse from relieving tensile stress from stretching. I don't have a clue about how much of a factor that may be with a puncture but seems to be common sense.

Also, the weight of the payload should have some effect on the release of gas from a puncture. The balloon wants to go up. The payload wants to go down. I don't have the gas physics background to calculate the forces but it seems the balloon should want to reduce it's horizontal diameter if there's a place for gas to evacuate the envelope.

Anybody please feel free to correct my hunches. I don't mind learning from my semi-coherent ramblings.

I assume the plastic balloon envelope would have almost no heat signature. Guidance is no problem - the AIM-9X can be guided by the pilot merely looking at the target. But how does the missile know it has arrived at the target and it's time to detonate?

Maybe there's a greenhouse effect and the toasty balloon interior glows infrared? I'm skeptical.

I heard that almost everyone in US have guns at home. "Home of the brave" and one meteo baloon flew over and everybody ran to the bunkers!!! Why anyone didn't shoot it? Or everybody are afraid of the scary chineses?

There was a sheriff who thankfully had the sense to point out to his community that at 60,000 feet the balloon was out of range of their guns- And that what goes up must come down applies to their bullets.

Surely you jest.

60,00 feet? (5miles)

What have you got that will shoot that high and far?I want one for geese and ducks!

I make 60,000 feet 11 and a ¹/₃ miles.

The only planes I know of that flew at and above 60,000 feet were the obsoleted U2 and the SR-71 spy planes. I wonder if this incident might prompt for a new spy plane design.

Where is David Boria when you need him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUOvH8EEEl4

What do they call those bombs that have 100s of bomb-lets in them? Set one of those off a couple a thousand ft above the balloon. And wait. Come down 500 ft with another, and wait. We want to scratch it. And we we do, it will take some time to tell that we have. Slow leak. This balloon seems to be controlled. And could probably go much higher. I would guess the skin on this one is different than the skin of a weather balloon.

Who knew......that a balloon could be such a problem? We need some hi-altitude non-fatal balloon ammunition. Perhaps we might spay it with something.

We might set up experiments in a lab, and see, if a small hole can be put into a balloon, that will prevent an explosion, at high differentials. A laser might even have a cauterizing effect.

There are many things to play with.

Cluster bombs. But please don't drop them over land!!!!!!

All your ideas are good enough that they should be tested and refined for future use.

Um, except the cluster bomb thing.

I would assume that they use some sort of rip-stop skin. Thus a hole would not enlarge.

I had also wondered if it was an elastic balloon or a mylar-like fixed volume envelope. Seriously different outcome when punctured. Anybody?

Also, at risk of being political, anyone consider offering the Chinese their wreckage back? Invite them to send a few guys to help us examine their "weather" balloon...

Then there's the strategy of launching a few hundred old fashioned radiosonde weather balloons Wikipedia Radiosonde Picture over their airspace to gage their response...

Uh-oh, we have some Chi-Com Sabre rattling going on!

“China will resolutely uphold the relevant company’s legitimate rights and interests, and at the same time reserving the right to take further actions in response.” China’s Ministry of Defense echoed the statement later in the day, saying it “reserves the right to take necessary measures to deal with similar situations.”

From A-P wire service

I wonder if there were any plans made to capture a Japanese balloon back in WWII? It was different conditions and parameters, but it would be interesting to see how they approached it.

If they did.

Only one was known to have gotten here, and it was in a remote area, campers, hikers or something is the ones that unfortunately found it.

it was kept secret.

We could of shot it down and caught it in a net carried by a few hundred drones, three or four of the drones could be carrying parachutes that deployed when the balloon was safely caught in the net, only problem is it would probably take too long to set up....

That would be great. But at 60,000 ft.?

If it was that high. Was it at that height all the way across? This has been hyped up so bad. We hear all kinds of stuff. That one photo looked like solar panels to me.

Probably would wait until 5-10k ft...you would need to geolocate the balloon and net, using ground observers positioned around the location maneuver the drone swarm for any drift from direct vertical drop trajectory....

https://www.geospatialworld.net/videos/catching-falling-payload-out-of-the-sky-wonders-of-spacex/

https://www.wmbfnews.com/2023/02/05/military-ships-divers-working-recover-debris-chinese-balloon/

That would be interesting. A little while ago a cable news channel reported that the equipment suspended under the balloon was "the size of an airliner".

Now I don't know it that means the size of a 12 seat twin turboprop or an A380 or somewhere in between, but either way it's pretty big to catch in a net.

Well we don't really need to catch the solar panels or the balloon, just the main payload...

With any luck most of the balloon and wings and payload would have separated, but yeah it's all mostly guesswork....

I don’t know how robust that equipment is, when I was about 12 years old on the farm, spreading manure in the dead of winter, I came across an orange parachute with instruments attached.

Turned out to be a recording device for the national weather bureau. Had a postage paid to just return the box as it was found and not to clean it up. Had splatters of dried manure on it. Damned if the post office took it.

different times I guess.

ya, as a 12 yo, the parachute was pretty cool.

What cable network would that be? The usual suspect?

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No comment.

And you believe cable news channel's, why?

I believe one of them about 10% of the time. Most of them about 3% of the time. Regarding politics <1% of the time.

But I peruse them to keep up with the current slants and biases.

I wonder what I’ll be tomorrow?…

Quick question...
Why didn't the US shoot it down over Alaska, they have F 22's based there?
Maybe Canada should sue the US for pain and suffering they suffered which was allowed because of the inaction of the US DoD ...

The commanding general of Norad and Northcom, on an on the record phone call to the press, that HE determined that the balloon was not a physical or military threat when it came into US airspace over the Aleutians.

Stand by. Next week we'll probably see Russian Bears cruising through US airspace. And they will likely be declared not a threat.

Until they actually drop a nuke.

A regular Macy day parade… this is the problem with ‘Woke’ leadership. I’d rather have a competence leader that hurt peoples feelings.

We've all seen the video of the British Marines and their flying platoons......from ship to ship.

Back in the 80s, they had a machine that looked like a chariot without the tongue and wheels, a solder stood in it. It was powered by a cruise missile engine. Flight time about 30 min. They had videos of them flying thru forest of the NW. It was much more exciting than a board.

If we had those, a little extra fuel, and a pressure suit, one could tow the balloon down.

I liked those machines much more than the flying kerosene foot boards we have now.

http://hyperboreanvibrations.blogspot.com/2011/03/williams-international-x-jet-and-other.html

At least three suspected Chinese spy balloons flew over the US undetected during the previous presidency, defence officials have said.

The US did not detect the balloons at the time, said Gen Glen VanHerck, citing a "domain awareness gap".

. . . if the balloons were undetected?

I'm not sure I believe the general when he fails to provide any other data to substantiate his claim. Surely the existence of these balloons can be de-classified now. Joe just has to say the word.

and also the term was "briefly' flew over the U.S. Was that one of the Aleutian Islands but not CONUS? We don't know because he won't say.

"I'm not sure I believe." Says volumes.

You mean you don't know! Period !

Shoot the messenger.

O.K., I don't believe him. Happy? That's an opinion not a fact which should be blatantly obvious to the most casual reader. Period!!

Generals in those positions are no longer military leaders. They are politicians with a uniform.

The fact that he stated this supposition comes from other sources of intelligence that they don't want to talk about rather than data from actual sensors, also leaves open the very real possibility that the adversary could very well have planted false stories. In the intelligence community, corroborating evidence is critical to back up any evidence, unless you're talking about Russian collusion. Then any old story will work just fine if it suits your purposes.

Went undetected, or intelligence withheld. Who the #$&@ knows with some of the military leadership we have.

but hey, let’s all speculate…

And here is the reference, they never told the previous administration, because they never detected it. I’m sure their priority is being a kinder and gentler defense department… more like lethargic in my opinion.

But that’s no excuse to have such a slow response.

So the US has something worth spying on?

What a revelation.

I find it interesting, even intriguing, no member has mentioned the existence of a US DoD project that uses stratospheric balloons with specialized instrument packages, these with the stated purpose of gathering intelligence. This has existed for four, maybe five years now.

Wish I could remember what the project is called. Anybody have this?

”I don’t want to say these balloons are for spying on China and Russia, but these are for spying on China and Russia.” Giorgio Tsoukalos

Project Mogul or something like that.

yes, that’s it and the U.S. has been doing that for a long time…

There are also Project's Skyhook, Stratoscope and Churchy. As with Mogul, using Skyhook balloons. Look up Skyhook balloons in wikipedia

All officially long defunct as far as I know.

Defunct???… or evolved. Everyone out of the loop can only speculate.

Ok, ok, so the names are retired. Picky, picky, picky.

The hardware could possibly have evolved but all the current balloon research findable on the web does not involve the old teardrop shaped balloons. The new projects involve more dirigible shaped balloons that are easier to control and extend loitering capability.

Not to mention, I won't speculate on anything that isn't published. Even some % of that is questionable.

lol… a rose by any other name is…

anyways…

It is not only unbelievable the technology advancements since the 80’s, but the cost and availability of it today compared to the 80’s, at least what we know of.

There are a number of high altitude ISR balloon projects under development currently but I don't know of any that are operational. These projects are easily findable on the net.

Not that it's not possible for clandestine balloon projects to be operational today.

And it seems that there's always a balloon ISR research project being funded by DoD in process, ad infinitum.

PS - gotta love Giorgio. He often goes where no man has ever gone.

I like his barber…

Gee, I thought it was an electric wall socket.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I say that anyone would ever imply US prior actions could prompt foreign governments to do the same. (Yeah, The Guardian does lean to the left.)

An earlier balloon project was Project Genetrix but nobody wants to hear about Boomers' stories anymore.

As far as the millennials thoughts on boomers…

there an ever better chance of history will be repeated…

D

This comes to mind.

Another piece of Boomer culture.

I enjoyed those guys…

Go white…

Could be the origin of the terms "white hat" and "black hat" in the cyber community but most Internet postings suggest the terms were derived from the old western movies where the good guys wore white or light colored hats and the bad guys wore black hats. Perhaps "I Spy" used those same origins as well.

Something to add to this learned forum discussion....

https://apnews.com/article/chinese-balloon-military-involvement-e45c759cb00294e83989fa35970935bc?user_email=e8c6c6620ef78711ec9f585cb7404491cc4e9621f034a40c6452d4344a33d1df&utm_medium=Afternoon_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Afternoon%20Wire%20Feb.%2009&utm_term=Afternoon%20Wire

Breaking news story, from NBC News:

NBC News story here

WASHINGTON — The U.S. military on Friday afternoon shot down a "high-altitude object" flying over Alaskan airspace and Arctic waters, National Security Council official John Kirby confirmed at the White House.

The Pentagon had been tracking the object over the last 24 hours, he said.

"The object was flying at an altitude of 40,000 feet and posed a reasonable threat to the safety of civilian flight," Kirby told reporters during the White House briefing. "Out of an abundance of caution, and at the recommendation of the Pentagon, President Biden ordered the military to down the object and they did and it came inside our territorial waters and those waters right now are frozen."

Fighter aircraft assigned to U.S. Northern Command took down the object "within the last hour," Kirby said around 2:30 p.m. ET. The pilots were able to determine that it was “unmanned” before it was shot down, he added.

Sounds like the White House finally received "The Message" loud and clear.

News headline today, Spy balloon contains a laptop in it

I had a thought a few days ago, and now it is seeming more plausible.

What If China becomes infatuated with the jet stream, investigates the living hell right out of it? That will be the story, anyway. Dozens of balloons, a hundred, a thousand... a day... for a week... for a month. What are their available resources in this respect, considering that they may have been planning this for years?

Just how many Sidewinder missles are in inventory, and should the USAF spend them all on ghosts? There are a finite quantity, and you can bet you aunt Fannie’s petunia basket that someone in China has a very good idea what that quantity is.

If our radar resources are engaged in searching for these, and our air resources are chasing them and shooting them down, and our surface navies and ground forces are busy searching for and collecting the detritus... what might slip in whilst we are busy?

What if, what if, what if? This is sort of shaping up to be a real problem.

The USA need only keep a steerable balloon at the appropriate height in its own airspace, armed with a drill and a conical drill bit to make just the right size of hole.

I think so,unless it had a mirrored surface.

Good thought. The DoD has an airborne laser test bed. They've been refining it for air to air tracking. Assuming that aircraft can get high enough, that might be an excellent test.

Where is Larry Walters when you need him?

https://groovyhistory.com/larry-walters-lawnchair-larry-helium-balloon/2

Or perhaps this is the famous lost ancient astronaut Wan Hu?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wan_Hu

Surely, you can't be serious?

"I am serious,and don't call me Shirley"

"China claimed Monday that the United States flew spy balloons into Chinese airspace more than 10 times since January 2022 without Beijing's permission."

From NPR.

Now, I'm certainly no expert, but I've heard that the US routinely spies on other countries. Actually, I'm pretty sure we still do, but have no way of proving it.

This has brought out all the naysayers who want to bomb China for spying. That's rather ironic, I'd say.

Do you really believe China? Are they so unimaginative that they would accuse us of the same thing they're doing after they've been caught?? Or do you believe their weather balloon story.

Believe me when I say that I don't believe 90% of what our gov't feeds us. But I believe exactly 0% of what the ChiCom's say.

If the Chinese and the Zionists join up, these balloons will be armed with Jewish space lasers.

Of course, now the Chinese can simply inundate our airspace with swarms of cheapo balloons, say $1000 a pop, and we can scramble our planes at say $10,000,000 a pop to shoot each one down. Hi Tek Red Nek can ride shotgun on these missions.

ξ

Other pictures I have seen only have the balloon.

Probably Russian collusion behind the victory mark.

I think the Pentagon is playing catch up. The plane is still one object short.

Bureaucratic red tape strikes again.

TikTok pranksters fly 'spy balloon' over Chinese embassy in London | Metro News

Sorry if the Chinese didn't find humor in this. What an awesome prank.

FTITCTAJ.

Pretty interesting information of the high power laser systems… sounds pretty portable…