Ohio train derailment

I read/heard from a known source that the engineer was told, by the dispatcher, to "push on through to the next sensor" after the wheel tripped the sensor before getting into the town.

The source will remain anon, since many here hate real news.

If I were the engineer,I would make sure to document all communications.The trains have a black box,like aircraft,so all communications will be available.However,I do not doubt the lengths that companies will go to to CYA.

The engineer will be put on leave for a while,I hope his"Run off insurance" is up to date.If you do not know what that is ask a railroad man.

It’s not like the engineer haven’t falling asleep at the wheel before.

as far as anon sources… I believe for most of this country.. ^{(at least the sane ones)} are tired of listening to these ‘reliable anonymous sources’ where their information turned out to be BS, that was swallowed and spread by weak minds.

Thou I do have an opinion, I’d much rather wait for the results of an investigation.

So now,you are the voice for millions of people?What is your source: is it just speculation or is your source anonymous?

Trains have more than one person "at the wheel",so to speak.

I personally do not trust large companies or agencies.I have seen what they can do.

Executives of the tobacco companies testified that smoking was not harmful.Chemical companies had their executives drink DDT cocktails to assure the public that it was safe,Radium lipstick and cosmetics, and the list goes on and on and on.

IMHO:

All communications between trains,dispatchers,as well as aircraft,control towers, should be publicly available,unedited, in real time and recorded on the internet, across multiple sites,where it will live forever.Pilots and engineers should not be allowed to turn off the devices,and it should be up linked via satellite from anywhere in the world.

Of course,this will not happen,too much at stake to allow the public to see the truth.

"You can't handle the truth."

Hey stop putting words in my mouth, I never said I’m a voice of millions, I said ‘I believe…’ … only the insane ones would question my statement… or at the very least mark me off topic…

anyways… as far as falling asleep at the wheel, even with the safe guards,.. they get away with it, until something happens… and that is not from an anonymous source, that is the NTSB findings…

question: do you also like petting cats tail to head too? Just curious?

So you believe that anyone that does not believe as you do is insane?

That your belief is not to be questioned?

IMHO,not a belief,that all of the nuts are not in the nut house,and that some of them are already cracked.Not calling anyone names,just an opinion.

Anyway,it does not matter what you are called,it is what you answer to that matters.
Sorry if I rubbed your fur the wrong way.

Not a problem, I don’t mind an level exchange of ‘opinions’.

No matter if it’s misconstrued, over one’s head or totally missed the underlying point all together.

how’s that for a passive/aggressive response?

I agree wholeheartedly.Look inward and upward,I say.

Of course,I do not think many millions will agree with me.

Trusting none based on your experience makes about as much sense as trusting all based on your experience. Aren't engineers supposed to apply critical thinking to things like this??

OK.You name one large corporation that you explicitly trust to tell the truth if the truth would cost them millions or billions of dollars in profit,or potentially lead to bankruptcy.

It may seem that I am painting with a broad brush,so please do the detailing for me with a fine bristle brush.

I am patiently awaiting your response.

Here is one example of my "Broad Brush":

GM decided that a human life was worth $10,000.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gm-recall_b_5070492

There's some truth to the idiom "You can't handle the truth". We've all seen pieces of a "truth" come out, some real facts mixed with some responsible speculation, and watched it get blown up by irresponsible (actually responsible to shareholders) social media into overwhelming waves of rumor, innuendo, irresponsible speculation, outright lies, and a s#it ton of other response that totally obscures any real investigation and reporting.

Reminds me of steering gear with a dead damper. One bump and the whole system can shake your hands right off the steering wheel. Keep your thumbs out of the spokes.

Talking about the derailment....

So this guy is saying it looks like one of the trucks on the railcar locked up and was skidding all four wheels, and further that the engineer never got a hot wheel or axle warning, otherwise he would have stopped as protocol dictates, and would be proceeding to the next side rail parking spot at walking speed to remove that railcar from the train....So they maybe just had a system failure for the hot detector at that location....but there has to be another failure to cause the train to leave the track...I guess it's possible the wheels were so worn from skidding they just slid off the rail on the corner...

Here's a wheel of a truck that was dragged for 240 miles before derailing the car...evidently it didn't put the train into emergency locking the brakes on the entire train, which it appears did happen in this case...no hot wheel warnings were set off on this occasion either....

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1996/r96t0095/r96t0095.html

Maybe we need a locked wheel warning system as well...?

Who can come up with the cheapest most reliable way of measuring a steel wheel turning speed?

ABS Tone Rings are all over automobile anti lock brake hubs.

Train brakes cannot be applied the same as automotive brakes.

When the brakes are applied,they must do so sequentially to prevent pile up and stacking.The cars are not all the same weight,and require different amount of force to stop.I don't know if the railroads have applied this technology to all of the cars or not.The braking systems for trains are very complicated,and all cars carry an air tank for braking.The USA still uses basically civil war technology on their braking systems.

There are many flaws in the current standard for train braking systems in the USA.One flaw I see is that air must be applied to activate the brakes,so if a car loses air,it cannot apply brakes.A parked train on a slope can cause the whole train to run away if the engine fails and causes a failure in air pressure.

Commercial truck brakes are the opposite.Air must be applied to release the brakes.

This method could prevent runaway cars, as has caused many deadly accidents on railroads.

Any time the E brakes on a train are applied,the track as well as the truck wheels must be inspected for damage,and the engineer must fill out all details leading to the application.

I realize it would cost many millions of dollars to modify all of the freight cars,so this is why the technology does not change rapidly.

Here is a basic diagram of a railroad braking system:

Lots of mechanical wear points,inspection and maintenance points.

How likely is proper maintenance done on millions of cars?

IMHO: (And in my utopian dreams )I am imagining a scenario where the cars communicate wirelessly to a C+C computer that makes braking proportional to the wheels speed of each car in real time.

This would require a minimum modification to the primitive systems now used.

This would result in applying brakes to the last car first,and the others in sequence according to wheel slip,which is proportional to load and track conditions.

A human,societal cost requirement should be required in all business plans and constitutions.

But that is just a impossible dream with management more concerned with profit than safety or human lives.

This sounds sort of like the smart ETD commonly used in American rail.

There are many flaws in the current standard for train braking systems in the USA.One flaw I see is that air must be applied to activate the brakes,so if a car loses air,it cannot apply brakes.

Oh, no no no my friend. This comment is way incorrect.

Mr Westinghouse developed the first generation of railway brake in 1869; railway brake systems have been upgraded as technologies became available.

Obviously not all railroads have been updated yet.

https://earthjustice.org/press/2023/advocates-renew-call-to-modernize-federal-rail-brake-systems-following-ohio-train-derailment

Well, I don’t know... sort of.

The article is a treehugger hit piece.

The first reference link therein is to the regulation itself, not a repeal. Within the reg is a clause that - believe this or not, Mr. Ripley - specifies the subject unit train is currently excluded, but must be in compliance by 1 May 2023.

What? This is sucky by itself.

The second reference link therein is a 103 page whine submitted to the EPA. I speed-reeded while skimming, and comprehended very little of the legal doublespeak within. If somebody feels like reviewing the document and advising just where it shows ‘federal agencies charged with regulating hazardous materials on trains actually removed safety rules requiring modern braking systems.‘ then we can have a look.

Railroads do not answer to the EPA, they are regulated by the FRA. EPA makes a rule, FRA interprets the impact on treain operations and hands out rules or addenda as required.

So what is the end here? My assertion that trains are required to be equipped with current state of the art train brake systems is incorrect, and the assertion is withdrawn.

I believe the phrase is ‘Sorry, my bad.’

Air brakes on big rigs use air pressure to activate the service brakes. The emergency/parking brake is spring actuated and requires air pressure to release.

Regards,

Bill Lee

Wheels wear, which changes the circumference?

Of course it caught fire with all the hotheads on this thread.

There will be over 20 miles of track in need of close inspection and repair.

When a train applies an emergency brake, or a wheel drags,other trains are not allowed to use the track until the track inspection is complete.Dragging of wheels may cause flaking or peeling of the track surface and lead to rapid deterioration of the track with disastrous results.

Sometimes a resurface/grinding of the track is all that is required,but sometimes the entire section must be replaced.

A severely deteriorated track can cause shock loading of the truck bearings,leading to bearing failure.And the weakest one will fail first.After that it is a chain reaction as the track deteriorates more and more behind the first locked truck,damaging the track for the ones behind and so on till the train derails.

Were there any previous incidents of an emergency brake application on this section of track?And if so,was the track inspected/ reconditioned?

So many questions,so few answers,and not all questions will be answered honestly.

A rail grinder in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTkM72jvTaM

More to come I’m sure.

Boy there are a lot of argumentative responses getting tossed around on this post. I thought we, as engineers, would be more civilized.

But what drove me to spout off my mouth is to ask: Who sourced the "cheap Chinese replacement bearings" and why? And point out what seem obvious answers: Railroad management and they were cheap.

I find it notable that a supposed nation of manufacture was included with the description of the suspected failed bearing. Come on, we're engineers. We can do better.

Come on, we're engineers. We can do better.

Cards cards are still up in the air and only now are beginning to land. In the mean time, yes, speculations are happening.

I agree, based on your posts following this one, let’s start with yourself. That’s is, if that’s alright with you.

What fool suggested this, without proof!!!

Of course, there isn't a staffed brake-van/caboose on the back of a freight train these days with someone capable of monitoring and responding to the needs of the train...

As far as I know,the train fault detectors use temperature to determine a faulty wheel or bearing.I think they should also incorporate vibration detection.

I have performed ultrasonic vibration analysis on bearings,and strangely enough, a new bearing sounds like a train on the track.There are however,some frequencies that occur with wear,and it requires training and practice to determine good from bad.My experience was many years go,and now the analysis can be done by computer automatically.

Old timers would put their ear to the track to see if a train was coming;same principle, but with analysis of the sound to determine a problem before thermal problems are detectable.

This method could also detect worn connections,bad cross ties,loose track section connections, etc.even from a considerable distance.

It would not be cheap,but I think it is feasible with the proper motivation and possibly legislation.

The sound of a freshly resurfaced track will "sing" for a while when a train passes over it. Definitely quieter and smoother.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEjHeo52sKs

Here is a company that makes sensors for trains:

https://www.reporterherald.com/2023/02/16/derailments-beware-detection-systems-seek-to-prevent-them/

There is a type of detector called "acoustic bearing detectors", specified for railway use.

EPA to take over cleanup of toxic Ohio train derailment disaster from Norfolk Southern

That’s great that the EPA is getting pressured to be more forceful, I just don’t trust their competence.

No matter what side of the aisle is in control. Heads of Agency’s like the EPA are appointed, and for the most part was arranged as a repayment of favors and not competency to run the agency.

I suspect you're right Phoenix. Then there's the possibility that when somebody competent does get appointed there will be enough opposition to policy changes that cost money for safety that the competent appointees will either be removed or say "Hell with this" and retire/resign. I think the people we really depend on are mostly like the guy in the video on the sensor stations. Just doing his job.

Well there goes the data to provide lawyers for all the lawsuits that are coming.

IMHO:

They will have a hard time hiding the facts in this case.There are many present and former railroad engineers that will dispute any non factual information or any info left out.The agencies will have to fight a sh!t storm of protests if they sweep this under the rug.

The railroad will probably threaten bankruptcy,and the government will declare it is "too big to fail",like it did with most of the auto manufacturers and the taxpayer will foot the bill for a loan(aka:gift) to bail them out that is never repaid.

As one company said:"I had rather owe someone forever than for them to think I was going to cheat them."

BOHICA*

*(Bend Over Here It Comes Again)!

Preliminary report from NTSB...

Seems to me that a bearing overheating should be inspected as soon as detected, because after that you are just rolling the dice, will it last or won't it...side the car and check it...100° over ambient means there is a problem, it might not fail until it hits a higher temperature, but it needs attention that we can be sure of...so if you know there is a problem why keep going?

https://www.wlwt.com/article/east-palestine-train-derailment-ntsb-findings-report/43041276

delete

I heard from source, that you can never avoid such accident if its deliberately schemed.

Are you implying the incident is a result of intention rather than a string of unforeseen events?

Sabotage, if you will?

Are you also implying that you have direct knowledge of this intention?

Or AP is implying that the powers that be has intentional put incompetent people in place.

They followed the regulations, the regulations just were not logically sound...the plastic should have never caught on fire...

"the plastic should have never caught on fire.---" Come on Solar Eagle, I know you better than that. You were being facetious - right? I'm not going to let you corner the market on CR4 facetiousness - no way. Ain't gonna happen.

From the NTSB press briefing on the initial investigation, it appears using a threshold temperature above "ambient temperature" was used to trigger procedures. Think about that for a moment. As a retired Federal Railroad Administration Safety Inspector who has led accident investigations that sounds friggin crazy.
Back in the early days of the technology it was a comparison of nearby axles on other cars. Example, if car FUBR 131313 showed a significantly higher temperature than car SNAF 999999 immediately ahead of it and WTFH 666666 immediately behind it then safety protocol would be implemented.
Without reviewing the regs (really tired of that sandbox) I will suggest the regulations MAY - I repeat May - (did I say May as in MAYBE?) only require the railroads "implement procedures." That is, the regs may only require that specific issues be addressed without defining specific procedures.
Example - The design of a sandbox might require that it hold a certain number of cat turds without specifying the dimensions of the sandbox. It would then be up to the regulated entity to design the sandbox. The regulated entity might then submit that design to the sandbox specialist of the regulatory agency whose background might be in in some closely related discipline, experience, or education, such as doghouse design and maintenance, to determine adequacy.
Anyway, if you are interested, the regs are found in 49 CFR Parts - xxx. The regs are, or at least were, in a good searchable database; but given what’s been recently done to other government websites all bets are off. The US Treasury website for reports on debt and interest cost come to mind here. But that’s a whole different ball of confusion, so to speak.
By the way, about the time I bailed so I could see come of the rapidly deteriorating natural world before it was further degraded, the plan was to implement rolling blocks in signaling using satellite-based GPS instead of rail integrated and terrestrial based position referencing. Trying to explain space denial attack to a signal guy to express my concern as to the vulnerability of our transport systems in time of conflict was a frustrating and useless endeavor. To lose 90% of our tactical capability is bad enough, but to lose most of our logistical capability just added to what I still believe is a screw up of unimaginable proportions. But I guess when systems are designed based on profitability and geewhiz vs robustness it should be expected. I should note here that it appears our adversaries are well aware of those vulnerabilities and are quite well prepared to fight without space-based assets. BUT there I go again, a different ball of confusion, but still a symptom of the bigger problem of self-important turf terriers calling the shots. I don’t know how we fix that, but sensing roller-bearing degradation on a railcar axle? The NS should have had a better method, and trying to blame it on politicians based on the color of their pom-pom is NOT the best approach to correcting deficiencies in methods and procedures related to failed equipment detectors in the rail industry.
By the way, FRA could use some good electronic, mechanical, and civil engineers; especially if you have some rail experience. Even after the things I've said it really was a great organization to work for, that is doing important work in the service of our nation; and I am proud to say I did my best even though I may not have been the best.