Two Years of Closed Access

I agree, it’s people who are knowledgeable that are not engineers or even technical.

some of the best solutions, came from people that has practical experience in the area your working in.

and yes, to kill spam, it hindered that access.

I read the forum every day and sometimes find items that improve my knowledge and other times the items are not of great interest to me. However it is still a worthwhile forum and may it continue.

I would hate to see CR4 close. It is very valuable as both a "live" resource and a "searchable archive" resource. It is also fun to interact with friends, even if the moderators have taken away our ability to reread the days of the cast iron bathtub.

How to increase membership is a vital issue. How can new members be allowed in without letting spam choke us again? Some thoughts could be discussed, but most (possibly all) would require time and money. Spending time and money on a free service sounds like a challenge.

The CR4 server software probably already supports memberships where the user's submissions don't get posted until cleared by a moderator. If I recall correctly, when I joined there was a period of time where my posts were delayed by hours or even a day or so before they were posted. Perhaps this could be reinstated. If moderation required too many GlobalSpec resources, then possibly seasoned members could do the "spam watch" moderation. This system wouldn't be perfect, but if we were able to increase membership with only two or three "spam storms" a year, then I think it would be worth it.

Another idea would probably require server software modification, but we would benefit if all posts from a username were automatically muted after one of many seasoned "spam watcher deputies" hit "report" and included the reason "spam".

I don't think you realize the scope of the problem...I was the spamkiller here for years, and for a while the spam was manageable, but then the bots attacked, and we were getting non-stop posting of spam that was repetitive, nonsensical, annoying, at a pace that could not be deleted fast enough to keep pace...the forum had to be closed to the public to be usable, we were getting spam's in bursts of 10-20-30 at a time...understand all the moderators are volunteers, as am I...and the spam once it starts it doesn't stop, it doesn't need to sleep, it doesn't need to eat it just keeps coming!!!! Still suffering some PTSD^(sic)

^{https://cr4.globalspec.com/group/52/Spam-Stoppers}

^{Veteran of the great spam wars}

Don't the "I'm not a robot"; "pick all the pictures that contain a boat" and "copy the characters you see" tricks work for new member verification before involving a real person?

In short, no they are not foolproof...it's the old race of one-upmanship...every time we build a better mousetrap they build a better mouse...

https://cheq.ai/blog/how-fraudsters-bypass-captchas/

You say that, but they didn't care enough to actually put developers on a fix for it. I had heard some plans about redoing the forums using a more modern platform, but that was before a bunch of layoffs, I doubt it's still on the table.

<...PTSD...> - Post Traumatic Spam Disorder?

No "Vee" device on that MSM?

It's VR (very random)...

https://soundcloud.com/user-183895014/ethereal-workshop-full-song-my

Ask Hush.

You ranggg?

I wish I had something new or different to communicate at this time. I don't. But please know this community is not forgotten and we continue to discuss ways to support it.

I don't recall the registration process for CR4, but if we didn't provide true identity to CR4 at registration time then I don't think most of us would mind providing true identity information to CR4. My employer's work software, all medical portals I deal with and many other sites require two factor identification upon initial contact (registration). Some servers (medical portals, out-of-office work machines) require two factor authentication for every log-in. Often "trusted computers" (in-office machines) only require an additional two-factor authentication every 30 days unless admins flag something suspicious.

Two factor authentication with email is probably not worth the effort. Huge pools of spammer emails can be established quickly with no expense to them. Thus, two factor authentication with emails would probably only hold off the spammers for a few hours.

Two factor authentication with cell phones might work. We all know that spammers generate false back numbers on a nanosecond by nanosecond basis. I am one of many people who has disconnected my home phone and only have my cell phone ring if the back number is in my contact list. Forward numbers might be a problem for spammers. As far as I know, for a forward number to work a telephone account must be established (money paid to phone company). There probably are countries where large blocks of numbers can be obtained for a small bribe, but that block of numbers would be a constrained (and valuable) resource that should be able to be blocked.

Overall, it should not cost much money or time for an IT Department to add two factor authentication software to the CR4 server that would only be a rare inconvenience to legitimate users, but would be a significant problem for spammers.

Spammers want money. If they can spray the CR4 servers with spam for free then they will do it. As they refine their spamming software to spray spam on thousands of servers worldwide, they can be expected to always stay ahead of any block that they can overcome for free. But, having spam posted on CR4 for an hour or two just isn't worth much money to them. Forcing a spammer to open a working cell phone account will probably cause them to go somewhere else.

Yes, this idea might (until better security measures are available) exclude new membership to persons without a cell phone. It might also exclude new membership to any country where criminals are permitted to obtain blocks of working cell phone numbers without establishing a paid account. But, it seems like this would enable much of the world to be able to join without GlobalSpec expending time or money above what is probably already being spent at GlobalSpec HQ.

(The "true identity" information would remain confidential at GlobalSpec HQ. Published user names would remain the same.)

CR4 - Announcement: Public Registration is Closed (globalspec.com)

The <...work on a new user experience...> must be still ongoing, then.

This is exactly why I launched this thread for the community to comment. Spam is certainly a problem. No new members is also a problem that will ultimately kill this forum as existing, active members become inactive.

Certainly, having no new members is a much slower problem than the "denial of service" attacks of spam. They are both problems but only one appears to have been addressed.

Let's ask AI, our replacement probably...

https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=what+will+become+of+cr4+chatroom

..."The Future of CR4 Chatroom

CR4 chatroom, like any online platform, is subject to various factors that can influence its future. The fate of CR4 chatroom will depend on several key aspects:

User Engagement: The level of user engagement within the CR4 chatroom will play a significant role in determining its future. If users continue to actively participate and contribute to discussions, the chatroom is likely to thrive.

Platform Updates: Regular updates and improvements to the CR4 chatroom platform can enhance user experience and attract new users. The implementation of new features and functionalities can help keep the chatroom relevant and competitive in the online space.

Community Moderation: Effective community moderation is essential for maintaining a positive and welcoming environment within the chatroom. Ensuring that users adhere to community guidelines and addressing any issues promptly can help sustain the chatroom’s longevity.

Technological Advancements: Technological advancements, such as improved security measures and enhanced user privacy features, can also impact the future of CR4 chatroom. Staying up-to-date with technological trends and ensuring the platform remains secure will be crucial for its continued success.

Monetization Strategies: Implementing effective monetization strategies, such as advertising or premium membership options, can help generate revenue to support the maintenance and growth of the CR4 chatroom.

Competition: The competitive landscape of online chatrooms may also influence the future of CR4. Staying ahead of competitors and offering unique value propositions to users will be essential for sustaining its relevance.

In conclusion, the future of CR4 chatroom will be shaped by a combination of user engagement, platform updates, community moderation, technological advancements, monetization strategies, and competition in the online chatroom market."...

That's pretty cool.. let's try a solution to the original problem....How do I protect my chatroom from spambots?

To protect your chatroom from spambots, you can implement several measures. Here’s a detailed list of methods:

1. CAPTCHA Implementation: Use a CAPTCHA (Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart) system to differentiate between human users and bots. This can be in the form of text-based CAPTCHA, audio-based CAPTCHA, or even more advanced visual CAPTCHA.
2. Honeypot Technique: Create a hidden form field or link that bots will unknowingly fill or click on, revealing their presence. Legitimate users won’t interact with these hidden elements, thus identifying and blocking spambots.
3. Moderation and Manual Review: Employ moderators to review new user registrations and chat messages. They can identify and remove spam content and block suspicious users.
4. User Registration Verification: Implement a verification process for new users, such as email confirmation, phone number verification, or social media account linking. This ensures that only real people can join the chatroom.
5. Limit User Account Creation: Restrict the number of accounts a single IP address can create. This can prevent botnets from creating multiple accounts.
6. Rate Limiting: Set limits on the number of messages a user can send within a specific time frame. This can help control the amount of spam generated by a single user or bot.
7. Use Machine Learning and AI: Implement machine learning algorithms or AI models to analyze user behavior and identify spam patterns. These systems can learn from past interactions and improve their ability to detect and prevent spam.
8. Collaborate with Other Chat Platforms: Share information about known spambots and their behavior patterns with other chat platforms. This can help create a collective defense against spam.
9. Keep Software Updated: Regularly update your chatroom software to ensure you have the latest security patches and features designed to combat spam.
10. Educate Users: Encourage users to report spam and suspicious activities within the chatroom. This can help create a community-driven approach to spam prevention.

By combining these measures, you can significantly reduce the chances of spambots infiltrating your chatroom and disrupting the user experience.

https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=how+can+I+protect+my+chatroom+from+spambots

Yeah I think we need some new ideas....

In two days you and an AI program have come up with ten methods runaway spam can be prevented. Do any of those methods take two years to implement?

I think we have tried all of these....however I do have a suggestion that might work...

What about if everybody had to post a bond, say $25 to become a contributor...that bond would be returnable on demand with cancellation of account, unless your account was posting spam, then your bond would be forfeit and the account on hold pending hearing, then a determination as to if this was a misunderstanding or deliberate act....Everybody could have an encrypted personal pin number to stop any account hacking to post spam...so before any post could be published you just enter your 4 number pin...

Now this would just be for contributing members, the site would still be open to the public to read...paypal to post bond...easy peasy

I'd be up for paying a small fee for membership. But how many first time posters would be willing?

You could cancel your right to post and just follow the conversations at any time, you're not losing anything unless you intend to spam the site...So usually when somebody feels the need to post they have been following along in the forum for a while...some for years...casual passerby's rarely post...remember you can still read the forum, you only need to post a bond when you decide to become a contributor...

OK, in a nutshell.....You are reading a forum thread and determine that you have some useful information you wish to contribute...We say, that's fine but we no want any spam...to guarantee you no spam the site, you give $25 to hold...If you no spam then you get the money back at some point when you no longer want to post, or after a few years, after we are convinced you no spam, we release money back to you...no cost, no fee, no spam....If you spam we disable your pin number and we take the deposit for compensation...

How does that sound, any questions? Anybody see a problem with that?

At first glance it seems like a good idea. After giving it some "Big Brother" and "They decide what is an offense" thoughts, I can see some potential problems.

But, from a fundamental point of view, I think we are very lucky that GlobalSpec has been supportive of CR4. Asking them to collect money, disperse money, and be involved in all disagreements and theft attempts related to the money is probably far out of scope for what they would want to sign up for (just my guess).

There are some elements of similarity between the cash deposit idea and the idea of requiring initial and occasional two-factor authentication with a text message to a cell phone. The requirement that posters have a working PSTN number, and the ability to enter the code texted to them would seem to be be enough to stop most spammers. As far as I know, in most countries you have to pay money to have a working phone number. Posting spam to CR4 just isn't economically worth paying for lots of cell phone accounts. Blocking of the few spammers that use their own cell phone numbers should be a rare and manageable task.

Does this seem valid?

The money could be held in the paypal account...no hassle

Once any spammer's try to breach the system and fail, I expect this would be a rare occasion, it's not worth the time and effort at $25 a shot...so once the deterrent is in place, I expect spam attempts will be a thing of the past...I think anybody can recognize spam when they see it...

Yeah, but...

What if someone hacks your account and posts under your name. You've been spammed and you're out your deposit.

That's why you have a pin number, to authenticate your post...and there is not an automatic decision made anyway, your posting ability would be frozen until you state your case...

I have no problem with that general scheme...

but my deposit would be expensed to LynDoor Industries!

I dunno, to some people $25 USD is a lot of money. On a different path, how many current members would pay $25 bucks to offer free advice? Yet another path, how many individuals would plunk down $25 bucks to ask a question about their high school science fair project?

I can see an amount of administration headache with this. Anytime money is involved there usually is some heartburn somewhere along the way.

Indeed, this is a sticky problem.

Well first of all you're not paying anything, it's just being held as a bond, unless you spam...I don't see any reason for current members to post any bond, clearly there are no spammers left here....

Re: not really paying anything: that is understood, I misspoke a little bit when I used the word in my first comment. Will potential members also understand it is a surety bond and not a money grab? Dunno. Cultures other than American may see it differently. PayPal was mentioned, is it available everywhere on the planet?

An inevitable question would regard current members and the bond requirement...

You said there are no spammers left. I disagree; there remain enrolled many many individuals who have had comments deleted as spam. Can these spammer individuals already enrolled be weeded out? I guess allow ‘em to let their spam hang out and when they do that, give ‘em the boot? I believe most of these spammers join a forum, post what they can and never return, so might not be much of an issue.

Paypal is available in over 200 countries around the world....

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/country-worldwide

Well Now. I have an opinion.

Keep money out of this! That makes it impossible to manage and what's next?

Guru Badges for $10.00?

Would I pay $25.00 to continue here? No.

KISS!

If they bite, you know where to send my cut.

Obviously GlobalSpec is a significant target for spam.

Charging a membership fee is probably not the best answer to getting new members. It would be more likely to limit authentic new members (besides being a hassle to administrate). Especially someone who just wants to ask a question.

I understand lurkers who don't join - because some of them eventually do join. But I don't understand joiners who don't lurk. Why are there so many inactive members who register and never post or visit again. (I'm a moderator at another forum and I see the same thing there.) Is it spam related as Doorman suggested? Or are there really people who register at every site they visit for five minutes?

I'm glad this forum is still around. I'm sure there's a solution for this.

I used to be active on this forum but instrumentation/control questions dried up so I'm down to checking the 'All threads' page maybe once a month. It's probably been a year or two since I last posted.
Reviving years-old threads with a current comment is of little interest to me and that seems to be the bulk of what passes for traffic.
I disregard any post with AI generated material because it is always bland and without substantive content. AI is the essence of Ya-da, Ya-da. Maybe AI brings something to the party in coding/programming, but as far practical troubleshooting, it's a waste of time to even read it.
I would not pay $25 for access, nor would I bother with high level security checks for posting rights.

I tend to agree about AI. It may do fine at discovering trends within a pile of data (which I don't have experience with) but it hasn't done well as an "author" of topics I have seen.

unfortunately, AI is still in development.

that may be where it is today, just look at AI trends…

tomorrow, you would tell the differences. And that is dangerous. Look at the news cycles the past couple,e of years. They are no longer news, but and arm of the elites looking to stay in power.

AI will just be a tool for them. I may sound cynical today.

We have had AI 'swarms' coming to read content in the forum that I moderate.

We also had an AI 'member' posting (oh so bland) content about growing cannabis, which traced back to a law firm involved in defending people against cannabis charges where it is still illegal. It's the first time I'd read any AI content and I didn't recognize it as such until it was pointed out by another mod.

Yep there are a lot of sickeningly ho hum applications of AI which will not make the internet a better place to read or chat.

Hmmm... so right!

The past two months have been bot wars for forums with open content and membership. Hundreds or thousands of bots at a time. Not following the bot page rules, trying to do things that nonmembers can't do, like send a private message, etc. or that bots can't do, like becoming a member. Jamming up the system.

And it's not just one source. One massive attack was linked to IP's associated with Alibaba. Another night, there were thousands from addresses in Vietnam. Next one, Singapore. and so on.

Initially our site problems were associated with large numbers of bot 'visitors' but after a couple of weeks, problems got worse without the large numbers at all. The bots seemed to be focused on doing things they shouldn't do, and it didn't take too many of them to cause trouble.

The overview I'm getting is that people are sending their AI swarms out for training with no limits like following bot rules. To say that AI needs to be regulated, official understatement 2025.

Well?

I don’t know what to say.

[sigh]

I think I hear crickets. I don't think it's Santana's Caravanserai.