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FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 8:25 AM

I know many conspiracy theories do and will be proposed on the cause of the collision, and that is to be expected, but now the main concern should be getting the river cleared and bridging the gap with a temporary bridge to expedite traffic.

If the towers are not damaged then it is a matter of bridging the gap with a temporary structure while a new more modern bridge is constructed.

If the supports had a sufficient buffer zone around the supports, it may have saved the bridge from collapse. Over engineering the buffers for the worst-case scenarios, and do not let the accountants dictate and override sound engineering principles.

Grounding a ship is much preferable to destroying a bridge.

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#1

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/27/2024 9:06 AM

True, but you have to be able to steer it, to ground it. And you have to have velocity to steer it. Otherwise the rudder doesn't work. So we use tugs.
They were probably trying to accelerate.....so they could steer. But couldn't get up to speed.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/27/2024 9:24 AM

It requires a differential in speed for the rudder to be effective.I have drifted downstream in a small boat and was able to steer without the motor running by dropping a length of chain behind the boat.The chain provided enough speed differential to steer.

I realize the mega difference in a small boat and a cargo ship,and we do not know the tidal flow direction at the time of the collision, although it is easily determined,and how much time they had to make a correction in direction.

Of course,with no engine power,dropping an anchor is not possible.

The root cause is the engine failure which started the cascade of events that led to disaster.The timing of the failure is somewhat suspicious,but making allowance for Murphy,it happened at the exactly wrong time.

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#72
In reply to #2

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

04/29/2024 4:46 AM

Dropping a ship's anchor does not require any power except manpower.

Retrieving it on the other hand.......

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

04/29/2024 9:05 AM

I expect the anchor hoist(s) to have brakes that must be released to drop an anchor. Even if a manual release exists, I doubt the crew had enough time to run the length of the deck to manually release the brakes before the impact with the bridge.

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#74
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Re: FSK Bridge collapse

04/29/2024 6:33 PM

It was standard procedure to have crew members stationed out on the bow by the anchor windlasses to release the anchor in the case of emergencies when leaving or entering a harbor. No power is required to drop an anchor. Particular attention is paid to maintenance of the brake so freeze-ups do not occur. Periodic testing is required to insure brakes are free and windlasses are working properly. This would be done while in harbor so the amount of chain dropped in minimal. Can't imagine any ship that size not having crew out there and waiting till a problem exists before sending them out there. That would definitely prompt a Court of Inquiry into the Captain's competence.

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#76
In reply to #74

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

04/29/2024 10:25 PM

A CBS timeline of the accident claims shortly after only two minutes from dropping anchor(s) the Dali impacted the bridge. If the anchor(s) immediately grasped immovable bedrock I would expect something (chain, windlass, anchor, etc.) to break. The ship had enough momentum and energy to move a bridge support and collapse the bridge. More than likely, for two minutes the anchor and chain slowed the disabled massive ship down as they dug scars in the Patapsco River silt. Dropping anchor was an act of desperation, not a solution.

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#98
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Re: FSK Bridge collapse

05/16/2024 3:37 AM

During manoeuvring in restricted waters crew should be manning the forecastle.

One good smack with a large hammer will deploy the anchor.

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#99
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Re: FSK Bridge collapse

05/17/2024 8:10 AM

Get real, Prof. A ship with enough energy and momentum to move a working bridge support will not quickly stop by dropping an anchor.

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#101
In reply to #99

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

06/28/2024 12:12 AM

Get real Redfred - read my post. I said it does not require power to lower the anchor. I said nothing about the effect of that action.

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#100
In reply to #98

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

05/17/2024 10:45 AM

Keep in mind, dropping an anchor and having the anchor catch n what is probably silt bottom in that channel will do nothing.

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#11
In reply to #1

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/28/2024 8:02 AM

As you know, With a loaded ship, they don’t steer very well. I’ve heard that an aircraft carrier or a Iowa Class battleship needs 1 mile to stop.

and with the reports I’ve heard, when the power goes out, you lose everything. Navigation, communication, steering, speed, ect…

this will only be confirmed when they analyze the black box.

it was fortunate, that before they lost power, they were able to contact the authorities. Even though, that was only 90 seconds before impact.

but even before the power went out, they were having trouble. The preliminary reports, state that the captain even dropped anchor. But somethings, not quite right here.

I’ll wait till the info on the black box is released.

as far as clean up, that’s going to take some time.

  1. recover bodies
  2. do a assessment of the wreckage of the pickings, before clean up.
  3. im sure they’re planning on the new bridge now.
  4. And developing temporary traffic flow patterns.

I see at least 18 months before it gets back to normal.

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/28/2024 8:23 AM

Don't quote me but I believe harbor pilots carry VHF walkie talkies to talk to tugs, bridge tenders, port authority, etc.

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#37
In reply to #15

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/30/2024 3:49 PM

And they did just that. SOS was sent out and the police cars blocked off traffic just prior to crash savings many other lives, although at1:30am not sure how much traffic there was.

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#54
In reply to #37

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

04/01/2024 2:58 PM

90 seconds before contact to the bridge is what I heard, if that’s true, that’s not much time for anything.

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#46
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Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/31/2024 10:40 PM

I figure that the shipping channel will be open before May 1st. Too much money at stake to lolly-gag around. The politicians will listen to Big Money and stay out of the way. They know better.

However, the bridge replacement will be five to seven years, at least. Because that will have to get all the environmental impact statements, disadvantaged communities assessments, marine life acoustic surveys, crab fishery studies, nanoplastic particle counts, greenhouse gas emissions, and so on.

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#53
In reply to #46

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/31/2024 11:39 PM

The politicians will listen to Big Money and stay out of the way.

I like that remark about politicians!

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#3

Re: FSK Bridge collapse

03/27/2024 9:44 AM

One can drop an anchor without power. But it takes time and area to deploy.

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#4

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 11:16 AM

It is very unlikely a temporary bridge will be put in place before a permanent replacement is built. While not convenient for everyone, there are alternative routes readily available, e.g. Harbor Tunnel (I-895), Ft. McHenry Tunnel (I-95) that are only a few miles away.

What is an issue is that over-size loads and hazmat cannot use the tunnels so those loads will have to take the longer route on the western side of the Baltimore Beltway (I-695). Given that this is a port area, that is a significant annoyance for those shippers coming into the port from the north.

The "dolphins" for this bridge were clearly inadequate for the type of shipping that passes under this bridge, but since this was originally designed back in the seventies, it is difficult to say that it was inadequate then.

It can be hard to get budget to upgrade infrastructure without compelling reasons. Today, you would have no problem getting budget to better protect the bridge, but last month, that would have been a much harder challenge.

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#10
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 11:28 PM

Way back when the Tampa Bay bridge got knocked down by a wayward ship many questioned why the Key Bridge and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge are/were not better protected by more adequate dolphins. The Maryland gov't just let the whole matter slide under the radar.

And the Chesapeake Bay Bridge is still at high risk from the same ship traffic that brought down the Key Bridge.

A terrorist couldn't have planned a more effective disruption of East Coast economy if they tried. In fact it's been noted that this "accident" may have opened the eyes of those who would like to bring the USA down.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 8:07 AM

And now the terrorist are signing up to get a captain or pilots license…

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 8:19 AM

Don't need no steenkin' license. Experienced Somali pirates can just walk across the border and get free tickets to Baltimore. Or any other port they desire.

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#33
In reply to #13

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 9:15 PM

Ran across this. I'm not convinced one way or the other, but look at the video at 11:20.

Also at 9:45 it appears that the ship is steering into the pylon. Maybe coincidence.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 9:57 PM

Conspiracy mongers.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 3:15 PM

We can always depend on people like this who disagree for this type of answer… bravo.

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#38
In reply to #33

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 4:01 PM

Pretty sure that between the 2 pilots, one of each side of the flying bridge due to the width of the vessel and the Captain standing by the helmsman to insure he follows the pilots' commands and the 3rd mate who was on watch that the 5 would have to be in on the 'conspiracy' as well as someone down in the engine room who sabotaged the fuel/2 main generators/main engine/emergency generator. As someone who has crewed on merchant ships and been in emergency situations I'm not really believing this take.

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 6:56 PM

Conspiracy theories abound,and that is normal for such situations throughout history,and they multiply over time.

Conspiracies have a long lifetime,much longer than the truth.

FSK theories will still be around in 50 years,like the JFK assassination and many more: Whatever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?

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#39
In reply to #33

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 5:59 PM

It was Charles Coughlin that poisoned their minds.

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 10:32 PM

Whoever you are, I love the warped humor. But as you can see, some here can't take even an esoteric joke.

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#45
In reply to #10

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 10:30 PM

Regarding the Bay Bridge, I couldn't agree more. I can look out my office window and see those bridges.

But, there are a few other things that could affect that risk from an accident. The Key Bridge had a center span of about 1,000 feet. The Bay Bridge center span is about 1,500 feet so there is more room to maneuver. Also, the Bay Bridge is about 15 miles away from the port, so that failure in the ship's systems at "start-up" is less likely than close to port like at the Key Bridge. The third thing is that the bridge deck is less vulnerable when it is a suspension bridge, versus a truss type of span. Check out the YouTube videos.

You can see portions of the trusses are vulnerable at the piers.

It is somewhat ironic that the high-tension power lines just upstream of the Key Bridge had better protection than the bridge itself.

As for disruption of the East Coast economy, I believe the Doomsday Purveyors, are blowing that out of proportion.

Harbor pilots supervise the ships from the anchorage south of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge to their berths in Baltimore.

The Chesapeake Bay Bridge is slated for replacement in the coming years. I would expect the new bridge(s), will be better protected. This incident will still be fresh in everyone's minds. The first span opened in 1952 and the second span opened in 1973.

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 8:06 AM

That’s a huge span also.

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#35
In reply to #4

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 11:50 AM

Since this is practically in your backyard, people around you should be able to benefit from rebuilding the bridge. Considering the 1.2 trillion Infrastructure Investment Act already passed the money should already be available and when the insurance companies pony up their responsibilities those monies can replenish the fund. Considering how long it takes for most road building/widening projects to be completed there is little hope that anything there will help solve the current problem of moving trucks around that area.

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#47
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 10:51 PM

Given the size of the economy around here, a bridge replacement will barely move the needle, in my opinion. Typically, most of the construction crews are very specialized and they are like 'gypsies' moving from job-to-job. I figure some industries, like concrete, will up their game to support the new construction, and there will be other supporting activities that will see an uptick in their business as well. I'm about five or six years away from retirement, and I don't plan to be in the area when the new bridge is opened.

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#5

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 12:46 PM

Declare the victims dead. Call off recovery. Clear debris now. Get the port open.

The port will be closed much longer than necessary. There will be several if not many years of traffic detours.

Cost will be no problem. It's a liberal society. And it is an election year. It will take several months/years to settle on a new bridge design. It will have to be green. And it will have to be a signature bridge, a monumental modern bridge......the Baltimore bridge. The pride of the nation. Every large city has to have a landmark bridge. And it will take years to build. A federal/state project.

This bridge had traffic load, wind load, ice load and maybe a small earth jiggle load. The next one will have collision load. That ship was a medium size ship. What would it take to fortify a bridge against the big ones? It's a very heavy battering ram. Not fast but very heavy.

Next, a plane will destroy a bridge and we have to start all over.

A few extra tugs would probably be cheaper than bridge maintenance.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 1:11 PM

"Next, a plane will destroy a bridge and we have to start all over."

It already happend in 1982 when the Air Florida plane hit the 14th Street Bridge in Washington, D.C.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 5:10 PM

I'm going to guess the channel is clear in about 30 days. I would be surprised if massive cranes on barges are not already en route to Baltimore. There's way too much money at stake.

Put the divers in the water, set the charges and dice up the bigger pieces into manageable chunks. There won't be an environment impact statement or study or anything. Watch how government can work, when they are motivated to do so.

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#18
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 10:51 AM

30 days may be optimistic to clear the shipping channel but it won't take 60 days.

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#48
In reply to #18

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 10:55 PM

You might be right, but there are cranes in place right now. Money talks, and this is Big Money. The replacement bridge will take 'forever', but that channel in which crazy amounts of money flows, will be done with lightning speed.

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#92
In reply to #18

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/14/2024 1:19 PM

A shallow channel was cleared in under 30 days. However, I was overly optimistic that the main channel would be cleared in 60 days.

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/14/2024 3:37 PM

I read today that they used explosives to break up one on the larger pieces so it would be easier to handle.

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/15/2024 3:27 PM

There is a video in here showing the detonation of the span to remove it from the Dali and exposing some of the damage.

https://gcaptain.com/baltimore-bridge-salvage-and-wreck-removal-megathread/?subscriber=true&goal=0_f50174ef03-dc4f329ae9-170712519&mc_cid=dc4f329ae9&mc_eid=4c49bc5912

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#7

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 4:17 PM

I realize that a bridge over water is much different than one over land,but California did a very fast job restoring traffic after the bridges collapsed in the earthquake by constructing temporary structures to bridge the gaps.Perhaps some of the methods could be used to get traffic going on the FSK bridge while a new bridge is built.

It will probably be cheaper to build a new than to try to permanently repair the old one.

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#9
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/27/2024 5:27 PM

The Port wants a taller bridge to open up to even larger, taller ships. That's been bandied about these parts for years now. The old bridge was likely reaching its end of life. Ten more years or so, they would have replaced it.

They have been doing studies for years now on how to replace the Bay Bridge over the Chesapeake Bay between Annapolis and the Eastern Shore.

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#16

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 10:27 AM

I haven’t see any information on why the ship lost power. Any plausible explanations?

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 10:48 AM

My WAG is a dirty fuel that clogged filters. Marine (bunker) fuel is notorious for being a way to dispose of questionable hydrocarbons. If my guess is correct, this will initiate an inquiry on where and from whom the fuel was purchased.

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#25
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 8:14 AM

There is speculation that the Dali might have attempted to switch from a lighter diesel fuel to bunker oil before leaving the harbor. Normally they would maneuver out of a harbor on the lighter fuel and switch to the heavier bunker after dropping off the pilots. The testimony by the American pilots should prove to be very enlightening. The crew consisted of 22 members and were evidently of Indian Nationality. Not sure where the Captain and Officers received their training. Twenty-two seems like a very light crew for a ship of that size. Most ships I was on had crews of about 35, Captain plus 4 mates, Chief Engineer plus 4 engineers plus crew members. But then we also were steam turbines and not diesel so we had oilers and firemen which added 6 below deck. Not sure what use now below deck.

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#97
In reply to #16

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/15/2024 4:04 PM
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#19

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 12:08 PM

The Dali engine is a huge MAN B&W model 9S90ME-C9.2 direct reversing marine diesel. It is a turbocharged, 9 cylinder, 2 cycle engine rated at 55,000 BHP at 82 rpm. It is a dual fuel diesel meaning that it burns high grade diesel fuel when maneuvering and heavy residual fuel at sea. Typically the switch to heavy residual is not made until the engine has reached full operating temps and after the pilots have been dropped off.

It is possible that they were making the switch to heavy fuel early and lost the plant. Heavy residual is problematic and ain't the easiest stuff to burn.

Video shows that the emergency generator did kick in.

The ship started veering/drifting to starboard.

The main engine Vessels was restarted

The main engine went out again

The main engine was restarted

The ship started to turn to port

The Dali is equipped with a single 4000 HP bow thruster, (2) 3840 KW diesel generators plus (2) 4400 KW diesel generators. Can't find any info on the steering machinery setup but would assume it would be electro-hydraulic. With all the lights going out and the loss of steering implies a problem with one or more of the diesel generators

Most likely that second restart of the main engine was to start it in reverse. That would account for the heavy black smoke that was reported.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 2:19 PM

That is certainly plausible. The mechanics of the vessel are probably available somewhere in accessible public records. Where did you get the sequence of events information? I heard investigators did access the "blackbox" for the Dali but I would be stunned for that data to be released to the public two days after the accident.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 8:09 PM

Am attaching released video which in later part shows the lights aboard the Dali going out, on and out and then later shows the dark smoke as it attempts to restart, probably in reverse.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2024/03/26/ship-collision-baltimore-bridge-katie-polglase-pkg-vpx.cnn

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 10:36 PM

Thank You for clarifying the source of the timeline, a security video. It is also useful to know the speculative parts of the analysis were from maritime experts and not leaked "black box" data.

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#21

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/28/2024 4:16 PM

There's one question I've found missing in all of the reports, does any party (shipper, pilots, ship owner, etc.) have insurance to mitigate some of the financial costs in this accident? I don't expect insurance will approach all of the bridge replacement costs. But some moneys from somebody other than taxpayers would be nice to know.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 7:49 AM

Britannia: which apparently has no connection to Britain.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ship-insurer-britannia-says-its-helping-baltimore-bridge-collapse-probe-2024-03-28/

Over here the news reports were immediately talking about worldwide disruption of insurance markets.

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#95
In reply to #21

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/15/2024 3:41 PM

There is a partial answer to the insurance question in here as well as some other interesting detail.

https://gcaptain.com/m-v-dali-lost-electrical-power-several-times-before-crashing-into-key-bridge-ntsb-said/?subscriber=true&goal=0_f50174ef03-dc4f329ae9-170712519&mc_cid=dc4f329ae9&mc_eid=4c49bc5912

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#26

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 9:28 AM

I don't think a new bridge will allow larger ships. One needs to dig for larger ships.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 11:44 AM

Reminds me of the story of the farmer that bought a mule,and could not get him to go into the barn because his ears would hit the top of the door.So he and his son were jacking up the barn to give more height.A passerby asked what they were doing and he suggested digging' out beneath the door and they would not have to jack up the barn.The farmer and his son just looked ant each other and told the passerby that they had the problem solved,and to go on his way.

The farmer turned to his son,and said"That guy sure was stupid.It's his ears whatz be too long,not his legs."

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#49
In reply to #26

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 11:05 PM

The Port of Baltimore has always been pushing for both. But digging the bottom brings the activists out of the woodwork like you wouldn't believe. It takes forever to scoop a cubic yard of mud out of the bay.

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#28

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 1:00 PM

I ran across an interesting tidbit awhile ago about the pilots serving Baltimore harbor. It turns out that cargo ships bound for Baltimore pick up a pilot just outside the Virginia Capes, prior to crossing the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. That pilot is in charge all the way up to just outside the FSK Bridge where they pick up a "docking" pilot. The channels up to the northern Bay are fairly narrow in the shallow Chesapeake Bay. The Bay only averaged 15'-20' deep during my sailing days in the southern Bar. Even I had to be careful as my sailboat had a 6' fixed keel.

I presume the reverse is true for outgoing ships but the article didn't specify that in particular. But that would explain the reporting of two pilots onboard the Dali.

Another note of interest is that there's a large anchorage just south of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge near Annapolis. The article didn't mention anything about how pilots are moved about if a ship must wait in the Bay anchorage for any period of time.

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#50
In reply to #28

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 11:12 PM

And I have seen some ships linger in that anchorage outside of Annapolis for up two weeks or more, waiting for something. Usually, most ships are gone in one to three days. When I get back to the office, I will take a look to see how many are piled up out there. I suspect that container ships are going to re-routed to another port that can handle intermodal. Bulk shipping may be a completely different story.

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#29

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 2:44 PM

I presume clearing the debris will be the first priority to get the passage open.They may even install a temporary bridge across the broken section.Long term,they will probably use a higher cable stayed bridge with very few columns to protect,and protect them they will,unless some bean counters start making and over riding engineering decisions.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 2:51 PM

Here is a bridge in China of similar length,but they are not hampered by so many regulations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaxing-Shaoxing_Sea_Bridge

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 6:01 PM

I seriously wonder if the damage to the pier foundation will be too severe for use in any temporary bridge repair. Road traffic could be quickly diverted to a pontoon bridge but that blocks maritime traffic. Opening the port and keeping it open is more critical than closing the loop for overland traffic. A new, taller bridge will be the most likely way the loop gets closed.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/29/2024 6:42 PM

Start the temporary bridge at the nearest 2 stable pier foundations and carry on from there.As I said in my previous post,clearing the channel is the first priority,and a taller cable stayed bridge would probably be the final decision of all the heads around the round table of brain storming.

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#51
In reply to #29

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 11:25 PM

I would be shocked if a temporary bridge were to be constructed.

In my opinion, I don't think that bridge is that important. It inconveniences some people, but there are several alternatives for getting from Curtis Bay to Dundalk. Politically, those people don't carry much weight because they reliably vote the preferred way. Yes, it is a significant inconvenience for trucking, because over-size and hazmat are prohibited in the two sets of tunnels under Baltimore Harbor. But I have a co-worker who commutes just north of the Baltimore line to our Annapolis location and he hasn't seen a change in the rush hour traffic. He normally takes the Harbor Tunnel (I-895), and occasionally took the Key Bridge depending on his stops/errands when traveling to and from work.

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#41

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/30/2024 7:52 PM

I bet they change the name for the new one.

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 8:56 AM

Like the ‘Dylan Mulvaney Bridge’

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 5:57 PM

The Bud Lite Bridge. The piers will look like cans of Bud Lite.

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#52
In reply to #41

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

03/31/2024 11:29 PM

I don't know. Those folks over there in East Baltimore like their traditions, Hon.

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#55

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/01/2024 4:09 PM

My point of concern,is what was the position of the rudder when the power failed?If it was not already turned starboard,then why did it hit the bridge.Was there a very strong wind blowing it off course,or was there some confused trainee at the helm?

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/01/2024 5:06 PM

Found this 'Time Line' from CBS:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-timeline-911-call-dali-cargo-ship-mayday-maps-construction-worker-recovery/

In short part of it reads as such:

About 12:45 a.m.

The Dali, a Singaporean-flagged cargo ship, leaves the dock in Baltimore, moving through the Patapsco River.

Tug boats, which are routinely used at the Port of Baltimore to help get vehicles out of the docking station, were already cut loose when the Dali's pilots and crew lost control of the ship. Ships are not required to have escorts through the bridge.

About 12:56 a.m.

The boat begins to make a big arc, turning toward the Francis Scott Key Bridge.

About 1:24 a.m.

The NTSB, which obtained the Dali's voyage data recorder, which records audio from the boat's bridge and radios, said around 1:24 a.m., "numerous aural alarms were recorded on the ship's bridge audio." The device briefly stopped recording but then turned on again using the ship's redundant power source.

About 1:25 a.m.

The ship reaches its max speed and then loses power one minute later at 1:26 a.m. The crew on board makes a mayday call, saying a collision might be possible.

The ship's pilot also made radio calls asking for tugs in the area and the pilot association dispatcher called the police at this point regarding the ship's blackout, according to the NTSB.

Baltimore County Executive John Olszewski said there were roughly two minutes between Dali's mayday call to authorities and the bridge collapsing.

"If it lost steering and power, then basically it's a dead ship just being carried by the current or its own momentum," James Mercante, the president of the New York Board of Pilot Commissioners, told CBS News.

"It would take quite a while — probably the length of five [or] six football fields — to bring that ship to a stop, even after dropping the anchors, because of its power and momentum. This is a behemoth," Mercante said.

1:27 a.m.

The pilot asked crew to drop the anchor, according to the ship's recorder. The crew made an effort to deploy the anchor, but it remains unclear how much progress was made, officials said.

The pilot made another radio call saying the ship had lost all power.

After receiving the mayday call from the Dali, officials ask police to block traffic on either side of the bridge, 911 records show. "There's a ship approaching that just lost all their steering," the dispatcher says. "So until you get that under control, we got to stop all traffic."

Two emergency responders say thay have each stopped traffic on the north and south sides of the bridge.

1:28 a.m.

The 911 records show concern was raised for a crew working on the bridge. "I'm not sure if there's a crew up there, you might want to notify whoever the foreman is, see if we can get them off the bridge temporarily," someone on the call says.

1:29 a.m.

The boat starts to lose speed at around 1:29 a.m. and soon, it hits a column holding up the bridge. Audio on the ship's recorder is consistent with the collision into Key Bridge, NTSB says.

Someone on the 911 call alerts the dispatcher that the whole bridge has collapsed. Emergency responders from Maryland Transportation Authority Police confirm they have held all traffic from entering the bridge.

From the sound of it, the rudder could well have still been in a starboard turn and never got back to midships position or turned to port away from the bridge support. It's also possible that by attempting to go hard astern by starting in reverse that it had the unintentional consequence of swinging the bow to starboard toward the support. Since it was a single prop ship, this would depend on its direction of rotation.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/01/2024 7:50 PM

If it had a following current,when the ship slowed down below the speed of the current, the rudder would have the opposite effect,steering starboard instead of port which was ordered .What was the tide status at the time?If it was rapidly going out,it could answer some questions.

It would present a unique circumstance to which no one had any experience,steer opposite of the normal reaction.And reaction time was very short.

It should be easy to know the tide at the time and factor that into studies.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/01/2024 9:59 PM

Without power, I would be surprised if the rudder could be moved at all. It's not like a series of ropes, blocks, tackles, and hand-operated winches operate in parallel to the hydraulics that move the rudder of a container ship.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/02/2024 7:40 AM

My point is:Whatever position the rudder was in at the time of power failure,it would stay there,and if there was an outgoing tide,the outgoing flow of the tide would move the ship in the opposite direction,towards the right(starboard).

If the captain was attempting to make a left turn(port) and the rudder had already started the turn and stopped, or finished the command,then an outgoing tide would reverse the action of the rudder.The rudder does not move,but the pressure on the rudder from behind would make the ship go to the right instead of to the left.

After the first engine failure,the captain probably ordered turn to port if not already given, but the engine failed again and the rudder stopped where it was at the time of the failure.

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#62
In reply to #59

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/04/2024 12:47 PM

The electricity to operate the rudder controls generally comes from the ship's diesel-electric generators and not the main engine. The rudder controls used to be electric controls down to a hydraulic operational system such as a electric motor driven axial or radial piston hydraulic pump used to operate the hydraulic ram attached to the rudder post. The loss of lights represent a total power loss aboard the ship. The flicker showed the attempt to restart one or both of the generators and the failure to stay online. The black smoke most likely was the attempt to restart the main engine and probably in reverse.

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#64
In reply to #62

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/04/2024 3:20 PM

I will never argue with you.

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#60
In reply to #57

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/02/2024 8:40 AM

As well as the wind direction…

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#61
In reply to #57

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/04/2024 5:31 AM

It is now revealed that there was a.8 knot south water flow which is enough to reverse the normal action of the rudder and turn the ship to starboard,as I figured.

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#96
In reply to #56

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/15/2024 4:01 PM

Received this from a classmate and is a very interesting read that answers several open questions.

NTSB Preliminary Report on
Baltimore Bridge Collapse Released
Mike Schuler
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has published its
preliminary report into the catastrophic incident involving the Singapore flagged
cargo vessel Dali and the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore on March 26, 2024.
The collapse effectively closed the Port of Baltimore to ship traffic, before salvage crews were able to open temporary channels allowing for limited navigation in and out of Baltimore Harbor.
According to the report, which does not include any analysis or conclusions, the Dali lost electrical power and propulsion as it approached the bridge, causing it to strike the bridge and resulting in a portion of the bridge collapsing.
Seven road maintenance crew members and one inspector were present on the bridge during the incident. Tragically, six crew members lost their lives, one survived with severe injuries, while the inspector escaped unscathed. A crew member aboard the Dali also sustained minor injuries.
The U.S. Coast Guard has classified the accident as a major marine casualty, with the NTSB leading the safety investigation.
The preliminary report chronologically traces the events leading up to the accident, as well as efforts to stop the ship and alert authorities ashore to the danger.
At about 0005, a senior pilot and an apprentice boarded the Dali, which was about to depart from Seagirt Marine Terminal to Colombo, Sri Lanka, carrying 4,680 containers. The captain reported the ship was in good working order during the master/pilot exchange.
The sequence of events quickly took a turn for the worse as the Dali experienced two electrical blackouts during its approach to the bridge. The Dali’s route on March 26, between the first blackout, and the Dali striking pier no. 17 of the Key Bridge. The
location and approximate size of two of the bridge’s “dolphins,” sheet pile and concrete structures protecting the bridge’s piers, are labeled in the lower right.
The first blackout occurred at about 0125 as the ship was approximately 0.6 miles from the Key Bridge, when electrical breakers that fed most of the vessel’s equipment and lighting unexpectedly tripped. This resulted in an automatic shutdown of the main propulsion diesel engine and the halting of all three steering pumps, leaving the vessel traveling at a speed over ground of 9.0 knots without any means of steering or propulsion.
While the Dali’s crew managed to restore electrical power briefly, a second blackout occurred when the ship was only 0.2 miles from the bridge, causing a complete loss of electrical power on the vessel. Despite attempts to restore power and drop anchor, the crew was unable to regain control over the vessel’s propulsion. The sequence also provided details of the pilots’ efforts to alert others of the dangers in the minutes after the first blackout.
The pilots called for tug assist at 0126:39, with the Eric McAllister responding immediately (although it did not reach the Dali before it struck the bridge). At 0127:01, the senior pilot ordered an anchor drop after the ship, Dali, lost power. The pilots’ dispatcher informed the MDTA Police duty officer and the Coast Guard about the situation.
One of the pilots issued a warning to all waterborne traffic via very high frequency marine radio at 0127:25.
At 0127:53, the MDTA duty officer ordered the closure of the bridge to all traffic, leaving only the maintenance crew and the inspector on the bridge.
e Dali struck pier no. 17 of the Key Bridge at 0129:10 while traveling at
approximately 6.5 knots, leading to the collapse of six spans of the bridge.
Events Prior to the Accident:
The NTSB report also provided a background on the Dali and key events prior to the accident.
The ship arrived in the U.S. from Sri Lanka on March 19, 2024, and made port calls in Newark, New Jersey (March 19-21), and Norfolk, Virginia (March 22-23), before mooring at the Seagirt Marine Terminal in Baltimore Harbor early on March 23.
In-Port Blackouts
The day before the accident, the Dali had experienced two in-port blackouts due to a blocked engine exhaust damper and insufficient fuel pressure. The crew had switched the main electrical bus configuration, which was in use when the ship departed. The NTSB is now investigating the electrical configuration and its potential impacts on the accident voyage.
Fuel Testing
As for fuel testing, the Dali switched to low-sulfur marine gas oil (LSMGO) 5 days before the accident. Post-accident fuel samples taken from the LSMGO in use and from all fuel tanks complied with international standards and regulations, ruling out fuel quality as a contributing factor to the accident.
The release of the preliminary report comes a day after salvage crews used small charges to make precision cuts in the bridge truss sitting on top of the Dali’s bow, which will allow for a re-floating attempt to take place sometime this week.The
Officials anticipate opening the 50-foot-deep federal channel by next month.

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#63

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/04/2024 2:35 PM

More and more information is trickling in,…

It’s interesting… I removed some of the information as not to set off our more ’sensitive’ members.

BOMBSHELL REPORT: Synergy Marine Group managed the ship that hit the Baltimore bridge where it specializes in REMOTE SYSTEM monitoring. "Synergy provides ship owners with mission-critical services including full technical management (e.g. regulatory compliance, maintenance, procurement, and remote systems monitoring), crew management (e.g. sourcing and training of seafarers and services like payroll) as well as marine services, (e.g. decarbonization services, seafarer health and wellness, newbuilding design and supervision and project management including for the installation of energy-saving devices)."

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#65

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/16/2024 10:22 PM

This has been a very interesting event to study.

There was an TV interview with a staff member who works for the owner of that shipping line , She stated the crew had electrical problems with the main generators tripping out for 48 hours prior to leaving port.

1) The ship shouldn't have left harbour in an unseaworthy condition but maybe the Ports Authority told them to hurry up and leave the dock so other ships could get loaded , Dock time is worth huge $$$ so we can imagine the pressures that could have been placed on the Captain , Even if pressure wasn't applied by the Ports Authority , There will always be pressure on Captains to keep to the clock.

Dirty fuel can be due to many things ;

*Water in Fuel

*Contamination from heavy Fuel oil being pumped in to the Generator tanks

*Counterfeit diesel being sold to the company which can take the form of diesel blended with kerosene or heating oil , this has been done before with at least one term of imprisonment imposed on the offender , It has been known to blow up truck engines if the diesel percentage is too low.

*Algae in fuel which can block up fuel filters , there are biocide treatments to kill the process but fuel tanks must be flushed and new filters fitted.

If there is dirty fuel being fed to Gensets it can reduce their horsepower , If they are running under full load the gentset RPM will fall due to reduced horsepower , As RPM falls so too does the frequency and voltage , When voltage falls the load will pull more current and current will spike , this can cause load shedding or complete tripping of the breakers due to either the current spike or cut out based on frequency sensors.
Ships use heavy fuel oil in their main engine and red diesel in the gensets however the current environmental laws require ships to use only red diesel in all engines when they approach the coast and until they leave harbour.
If the Red diesel used to run the gensets and ships engine was found to be dirty , the Captain may have tried to change over to Heavy Fuel Oil too early before the Oil had been heated sufficiently which could have been a factor.

The Circuit breakers on equipment this size are huge and very sophisticated , they can be programmed to shed loads based on priority but if the Gensets shut down completely that points to 2 - 3 possibilities that the crew _should have been_ experienced enough to diagnose and repair , NTSB will tell us eventually.

NTSB will be checking for many things , even down to whether the ships crew were qualified , or if their qualifications were fake when they were given the job.
With regards to the rudder control , It would have had 4 - 5 layers of redundancy , The rudder typically has 4 independent hydraulic cylinders to control its position and they are powered by hydraulic power packs driven by the main gensets , if the main gensets go down there is an emergency genset which can power either one of 2 smaller hydraulic power packs.

Budgets will be examined , We know that due to the worlds economies being in a downturn the yearly tonnage of exports will have fallen so Shipping Companies will be under pressure to cut costs to win the contracts , If they are hiring "the cheapest crews they can find" then there may be competency and performance issues to investigate.

There has been Tin Foil Hat comments about the ship turning towards the Pylons in the last 2 minutes which coincided with the black smoke from the exhaust , This could have been the ships engine being put in reverse and restarted and going straight to full horsepower , In a single screw ship reverse drive can cause The Paddlewheel effect also known as Prop Walk , this is due to the propellor blades at the bottom giving more thrust than the blades closer to surface resulting in the stern being pushed to port side.

The ships turning towards the concrete pylons is unlikely to be due to rudder position , but more likely from Prop Walk when the Captain or Pilot demanded reverse drive at full power.

Other Conspiracy theories claim there is a cover up over 2 minutes of engine data being missing from the VDR however it takes 2 minutes for the ships engines to be started so while the engine is shut down it will produce zero engine data , the VDR did record voice activity at the helm.

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/17/2024 7:43 AM

you have upper management pushing to get going,

the ship crew is basically between a rock and a hard place.

the fuel situation is in question

the bottom line is cya where Everyone is lawyering up… to at least control the narrative to start with.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/17/2024 9:52 AM

The Ships crew is not necessarily between a rock and a hard place.
If they could be made to take all the blame they will have it dumped on their head in truckloads.
Whenever there has been serious incidents or accidents in the past, It was traditional for a scapegoat to be found to take the blame and it would always be the lowest ranked on crew.
(Refer USS Iowa)

Typically the blame will be put on a person who has died from the event because they show reluctance to defend themselves , however there is no deceased person to take the blame in this case.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/17/2024 10:37 AM

As usual, the S--t will roll downhill to the lowest person on the totem pole.

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#71
In reply to #68

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/18/2024 4:04 AM

At least you saw my point…

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#69

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/17/2024 12:43 PM

I think we can sum this up: Someone is saying "hurry up" because they are keeping their eye on the "bottom line" (read upper management, even if they are doing it by remote control;) but there are lots of unintended consequences.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/17/2024 1:52 PM

Pressure will even make water run uphill.

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#75

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/29/2024 8:03 PM

In the future,when they repair or replace the bridge, the simple way to prevent a repeat occurrence is to have the tugs escort all ships out past the bridge(s).

This is in addition to more substantial protection for the bridge support structures.

A belt and suspenders approach.

When you cannot afford to lose,you should not gamble.

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#77
In reply to #75

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/29/2024 10:31 PM

But then there's the pair of Chesapeake Bay Bridges near Annapolis and then the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel between the Eastern Shore and Norfolk at the southern end of the Bay. Neither of those are adequately protected (IMO) from runaway ships.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a major accident at the Bridge Tunnel in all the years it's been open. Other than a loose barge taking out part of a trestle near the Norfolk end, that is. But since there are individual north and south bound bridges that wasn't a major problem.

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/29/2024 10:37 PM

Tugs for transitioning past waterway hazards could prevent future accidents but at what and whose cost? Inflatable, sacrificial bumpers (airbags) attached to dolphins protecting the bridge could be remotely triggered by a harbor authority (pilot) in an emergency event.

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/30/2024 5:49 PM

Cost. Where all the chickens come home to roost.

"That's a great idea!! . . . . . You want me to pay for it !?!?!?!? "

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#80
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Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/30/2024 6:20 PM

Costs really don't matter..they simply pass it on to the consumer eventually.The people at the top of the food chain will not pay out of their pocket,so why should they care?

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/30/2024 10:28 PM

Costs don't matter?!? Could you please buy this for me? I want it.

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#85
In reply to #81

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 7:27 AM

Divide the cost by 300 million and I will do my part.Or maybe I will go sit in the wagon with the 51% that don't pay any taxes, and let the hard working mules in front pull me along.

The tug operator will charge more because it takes more time for his men on the payroll,more fuel,etc.so he passes the cost along,plus a little for the trouble.

The maintenance on the tug increases due to more run hours, the provider of the fuel sells more fuel,so he makes more money,and of course,taxes increase,and Uncle gets more money,the parts and labor for maintenance increases and eventually it is the consumer that pays except for the big fish.They just want their life back.

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#89
In reply to #85

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 11:09 AM

But it never ends there. We will die a death of a 100-trillion microscopic paper cuts.

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/30/2024 10:32 PM

You mean like the student loans?

I recall when I was at the shipyard. When we secured a large contract, first thing I did was I submitted requests for upgrades for the shop that I managed.

same as when election time comes around… money flows…

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#83
In reply to #82

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

04/30/2024 10:45 PM

Speaking of the student loans debacle, I wholeheartedly agree that anyone making poor investment choices should lose some finances. Still, a lifetime crippling debt is an excessive burden, particularly when the supposed education was a scam in the first place.

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 5:30 AM

I agree, a student loan like investments, one has to do their due diligence. Any gain or losses are the responsibility of the person taking the risk.

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#86
In reply to #84

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 7:41 AM

I do not object to helping an ambitious young person get a chance to better him/her self that does not have the means to pursue a higher education,but I do have a problem with paying for an ivy league person that was born with a silver spoon in his mouth,who has never done a days work being on my payroll.

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 8:07 AM

And "graduates" with a gender studies degree.

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#91
In reply to #86

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 4:19 PM

The loans were very low interest, on top of that they were too easy to get.

when I took my student loans out it was 3% and change and 5% and change.

it went up drastically a few years ago to something like 7%.

if you could pay back those loans at those rates… you selected the wrong major.

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#87
In reply to #83

Re: FSK Bridge Collapse

05/01/2024 7:56 AM

I agree the modern education system is flawed.The focus now is retention,not education.Everyone must pass.Freedom of thought is lost and indoctrination is the main course served.

I read an article about a survey about mechanical engineering,and it revealed that most modern engineers could not pass a 1950's exam on basic engineering.My apologies to the real engineers that were not part of those that passed in the name of retention or quotas,and there are still plenty of worthwhile, great engineers that deserve their accolades and I honor and respect them.

The problem also reveals itself in economics,where students are taught to focus on quarterly returns,not long term effects of eliminating or low-bidding critical components.

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