Previous in Forum: Testing a New UHDPE Netting   Next in Forum: WatchPower Password Reset
Close
Close
Close
11 comments
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3524
Good Answers: 146

Water vs Wind Dynamics

08/16/2024 7:22 PM

Been pondering some of the mysteries of microclimate, and seeing that both water and wind are fluid dynamics I wondered if someone more versed in these matters would comment or discuss the differences between aerodynamics and hydrodynamics, whether they are simply parallel and equivalent or whether there is anything special that separates one from the other.

Not that they are ever really separate from one another in the real world. There's water in the air and air in the water.

Geographically, this mixture is flowing around the solid objects, hills mountains plains valleys in my environment, so I am wondering what differences there are in wind vs water. Water is affected by gravity of course. Obstacles will push it downward and to the side because of its weight. I guess I just don't know what happens with wind and how it may or may not be different in its dynamics.

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
3
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7831
Good Answers: 449
#1

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/16/2024 10:16 PM

I'm not very well versed in either of these topics but a big distinction is compressibility.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23460
Good Answers: 418
#3
In reply to #1

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/17/2024 7:59 AM

That’s true,

I had used CFD software to determine the efficient design for piping for cooling water piping as well as ducting for exhaust gases..

There are similarities for both, for the design, what I have found is there are at times where the similarities are nominal.

it all depends on the numbers and applications, such as volume (SCFM/ACFM for exhaust gases, GPM for fluids).

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3524
Good Answers: 146
#4
In reply to #1

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/17/2024 11:24 AM

Well my first thought was One Second Plumber, but beyond the can, this is actually part of the answer I was looking for. In microclimate, atmospheric subsidence.

"Atmospheric subsidence is the downward movement (sinking) of air parcels in the atmosphere. It is the opposite of atmospheric lift. This movement compresses the air, which increases both the temperature of an air mass and its capacity to hold water vapour. The net effect is a lowering of an air mass’s relative humidity, and the dissipation of clouds and precipitation. "

https://avalanche.ca/glossary

"Sinking air parcels warm via compression and spread outwards upon reaching the surface of the earth. Resultant weather typically consists of clear skies and light winds, though exceptions do occur."

So this explains why a foothill, surrounded more or less by larger hills at varying distances, is significantly dryer and hotter than microclimates even a few km away.

This might also explain why, even in cloudy weather, the sky commonly clears and sun shines at least briefly around solar noon.

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 121
Good Answers: 9
#7
In reply to #1

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/19/2024 10:53 AM

Because of the compressibility of air versus water as well as density of the matter, matters, such as supersonic speeds, are almost never dealt with in fluid dymnamics. Because of water's density, friction in water is so much greater. There are definitly many similarities, but the differences between in the phase of the matter (i.e. gas, liquid, solid) really does create significant differences that make comparison almost meaningless.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 31998
Good Answers: 837
#10
In reply to #1

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/22/2024 4:32 AM

The other consideration is the ability to fill a container. The prefix <...hydro...> points towards liquid water, which will not completely fill any container unless sufficient is poured in; the prefix <...aero...> points towards air, which does actually fill any container it is presented with without more being introduced.

Such is the distinction between the liquid and the solid states of matter.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3524
Good Answers: 146
#11
In reply to #10

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/22/2024 8:34 PM

When there's too much water for the container it overflows. When it overflows it strictly follows the path of least resistance, whether the flow is laminar or turbulent.

Water interacts differently with the ground as well. Water displaces air in soil, when there's too much of it or it can't drain through, water fills the pores that contained air.

Air can only displace water by causing it to transition to vapor.

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33172
Good Answers: 1804
#2

Re: water vs wind dynamics

08/16/2024 10:31 PM

..."In physics, physical chemistry and engineering, fluid dynamics is a subdiscipline of fluid mechanics that describes the flow of fluids — liquids and gases. It has several subdisciplines, including aerodynamics (the study of air and other gases in motion) and hydrodynamics (the study of liquids in motion)."...

..."The difference is that aerodynamics does not care about the gravity effects most of the time but hydrodynamics usually accounts for gravity effects"...

Everything is set in motion by heat, as the air heats it expands, as do liquids, so you have the heating air and water expanding and the cooling air and water contracting, they are both subject to the coriolis effect and density that drives the denser air and water to the lower portions and the less dense air and water to the surface area....All these imbalances put everything in motion, creating weather together with the gravitational pull of the planets, chiefly the Moon, that creates gravitational pull that bulges everything out in that direction...In a nutshell...

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9712
Good Answers: 1113
#5

Re: Water vs Wind Dynamics

08/17/2024 2:42 PM

One of the characteristics of fluid flow is the transition between laminar flow and turbulent flow. The ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces is the Reynolds number. Below 2300 the flow is likely to be smooth (laminar) and above 4000 likely to be turbulent.

"The Reynolds number is the ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces within a fluid that is subjected to relative internal movement due to different fluid velocities."

The Reynolds number is defined as:[4]

]

where:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number

In comparing two fluids under the same conditions, you would have to take into account the Reynolds number. Water has a higher dynamic viscosity than air, so you could expect different behavior.

https://www.princeton.edu/~asmits/Bicycle_web/transition.html#:~:text=The%20dynamic%20viscosity%20of%20water,keeping%20with%20our%20intuitive%20notion.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3524
Good Answers: 146
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Water vs Wind Dynamics

08/17/2024 6:44 PM

Great link, Rixter.

So kinematic viscosity of water vapor is approximately the same as for air, and both are invariably turbulent. Phenomena like 'straight line winds' or 'gap winds' are more turbulent if anything, due to the higher speed.

Ended up reading this Nav Canada document as well, which goes into some detail about the effects of topography on wind.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/lawm-atlantic-en.pdf

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: England
Posts: 14
#8

Re: Water vs Wind Dynamics

08/20/2024 7:55 AM

I have not done the sums but the Reynold's numbers and hence flow characteristics for, say, wind and water turbines might be similar. I suspect that it is the density that would be the most significant parameter. Find a non-dimensional number combination that equates with power. Whether you use wind, wave or tidal power you are still getting the energy from the sun and by slowing the rotation of the earth. In the UK there may be a disastrous local effect like diverting the Gulf Stream more to the West of Ireland. I am too old to worry much about such things as this. Global warming and nuclear waste must be addressed rather than swept under the carpet by successive cash strapped governments.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23460
Good Answers: 418
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Water vs Wind Dynamics

08/20/2024 10:23 AM

imo, the Reynolds Numbers is a dimensionless, there may be a rule of thumb of the actually number, but it is basically subjective to the media that its being applied to.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 11 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

artsmith (3); Brave Sir Robin (1); ccoop609 (1); John Hadland (1); phoenix911 (2); PWSlack (1); Rixter (1); SolarEagle (1)

Previous in Forum: Testing a New UHDPE Netting   Next in Forum: WatchPower Password Reset

Advertisement