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Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/25/2007 5:05 PM

I had to take my wife to the shops yesterday, while she were shopping I was standing in the bookshop and did some catching up.

I did the DIY, games and PC section and started the Astronomy section. The one magazine had something about a earth like planet in the Epsilon Erandi system. Just as I was starting to read my wife came back and I had to abort my education (You don't tell a wife recovering from a shoulder replacement and close to unsolicited combustion to wait)

I did not read much but I think it was about an earth like planet (D3 - same distance from sun), with a titan sized moon, where conditions were right (liqued water) for life to evolve.

I just had a quick Google.

The first match (Wikipedia) was about EE fiction.

The second gave some detail about the star. at 10.8 light years, 85% sun size. 24% energy. rotate at 1/2 speed.

I did not find something about the planet.

Has any one seen the article?

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#1

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/25/2007 5:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stars_with_confirmed_extrasolar_planets

I saw show about that very thing not too long ago. Very cool! They may not be habitable by humans, but they at least have the capability of supporting life.

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#2

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/25/2007 5:53 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_Eridani_b

This one is not very earth like at 1.5 times the mass of Jupiter... I suppose there might be another one.

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#3

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/26/2007 2:47 AM

Thanks for the Info

I am not usually that interested in astronomy because I am more concerned about not polluting what we have.

The cover story caught my attention. The magazine is on the web under Astronomy.com (but I am not subscribed)

Steve I think there was something about 0.53 AU.

KilowattO - Thanks for the list

Most of the discovery dates falls in the last few years. our knowledge seem to be increasing at a dramatic rate.

I am amazed at the number of dual planets within 100 light years. Does a unbalanced dual planet have a better chance of life? (I think it do)

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#4

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/26/2007 11:56 PM

Never heard of but enjoy reading CR4 posts, questions and answers or more questions with no answers, however, I have always read that there are planets with ice caps and possible water to sustain life, my question is can life evolve even if such ice or water is tainted with some kind of inert gas or substance, preventing life from evolving, and low can life evolve without micro-organisms to lay eggs or reproduce?

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 1:30 AM

Hi Guest, (It is amazing that so many people choose the name Guest )

The planet described in the article was in the right range of having liquid water available and therefore could sustain life.

How life evolved is a mystery to me too. Apparently there was a soup and lightning caused cells to form. these cells then multiplied and eventually decided to design and grow organs (eye, nose leg and other handy organs). The different designs competed against each other for supremacy and eventually brains (or the lack of it) won.

Fortunately for us the soup is all used up, otherwise new cells may evolve, brows the net and evolve to perfect beings, take over the crazy governments and enslave humanity.

I think some outside intelligence was required but that do not seem to be acceptable.

I also think the earth / moon is a twin planet system and that the tides are absolutely essential for life. (Not ruled out yet).

If you quote me on anything you will be spreading illiteracy.

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#8
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 1:44 AM

The Moon is very essential to life as we know it. Most single planets wobble way more than the Earth. The Moon moderates this tendency to wobble.

New cells are trying to form all the time, but there are so many life forms around today that most starters get eaten on the spot. The same is true in bee hives... All workers lay viable eggs, but other workers are voracious for the little bundles of joy!

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 3:07 AM

I agree that new cells are forming continuously, without that life as we know it will end, but these cells has a predefined blue print. The outcome is predictable unless something tampered with the DNA.

What I am getting at is that some external intelligence was required to plan & create the proper DNA.

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#12
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 3:13 AM

Why?! The earth is vast and the chemical environments were many - from the poles to the tropics.

We just arose before the feeding starting happening. Remember that for about 200 million years, nothing ate anything else until the Cambrian explosion.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 5:48 AM

The why and the how the cells (Atoms) arranged themselves in a functional , inter-depended , co-operative state is a mystery to me. But it is that way now and it have to be accepted.

Maybe I should read books of experts but I usually has a question "How do they know that?"

I am not really against the theory.

I have seen the effect of evolution. Antelopes in a fenced in area are smaller than their free ranging counterparts (of the same age) and that occurred in less than 50 years. This can however be explained.

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#21
In reply to #13

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 4:57 PM

You know, it's just one of those everyday meaningless coincidences that have no foundation in science and should be completely ignored, but I have always been intrigued by the fact.........

...........that this ca. 5000 B.C.

symbol has come to (to this day) represent the medical field.

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#29
In reply to #21

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 1:46 AM

Nope. The two headed snake is quite different from Caduceus...

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#38
In reply to #29

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/30/2007 12:26 AM

yep. You have shown the modernized Greek for the 2000 year old predecessor - Sumerian

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#24
In reply to #13

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 12:49 AM

It happens in you, as well! mitochondrial DNA is completely different than your ordinary DNA. Yes, you inherit it from your mother, but the mitochondria in your cells are responsible for picking up food and processing it so your cells can use it.

I don't think it's too great of an intellectual leap th recognize this as the remnant of a symbiotic relationship.

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#5

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 1:22 AM

Yes, know it very well. Can arrange accommodations, but you have to provide transportation. Also, you may want to weight-train before going there. Most molecules are two-dimensional.

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#7

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 1:37 AM

I'm not sure if it's the same name system, but the NASA site had something about this a little while back.

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#9

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 1:53 AM

There may be the planet you read.

Now regarding life:

Late Carl Sagan, scientist behind SETI, never believed that water (Oxygen and absense of Ultraviolet rays) is necessary element for evolution of life. We are based on Carbon and water, so we think (biased)that water is necessary for life.

There may be some system where no water, oxygen, will be needed and still that life may be inteligent than us.

Read book by Carl Sagan "Cosmic Connection"

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 2:30 AM

Well, they keep find anaerobic bacteria that live in water at an excess of 250° F, and work on chemo-synthesis rather than photosynthesis... So, what the heck!!!

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#19
In reply to #10

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 11:51 AM

Earth-like conditions (including oceanic thermal vents, hot springs, etc.) are prerequisites for life as we know it. Life as we do NOT know it, on the other hand, may have several other hands...

Some years back, Isaaic Asimov wrote a piece on the possibility for life evolving as other than carbon-based. While possible, carbon has certain properties that make it the primary candidate. Just as it is theroetically possible for copper to replace iron as the oxygen bearer in hemeglobin, but it doesn't perform as efficiently. Chlorine could replace oxygen, too, as they have similar properties, but again not with conditions as we know them.

And as to the question of how could life evolve without a design...well, look at it from the opposite perspective. Given the properties of the chemicals available, the conditions that were present at the time, and the time necessary for all of the permutations to occur, perhaps such convenient molecular stacking is the INEVITABLE consequence, and thinking that life would NOT evolve is the fallacy. It is, after all, factual that life exists, so the theory is in how that would not occur. Colloidal clay particles likely played a more significant role than most would suspect, too. A framework, as it were, for the organelles of cellular structure to start off with.

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#27
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 1:05 AM

Ugly! Ugly bags of mostly water!!!

I too read the SCI AM article of the role of early clays in forming the structure for cell creation.

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 6:01 AM

Why are we not Silicone based?

I lived in an arid area and I can assure you, water is needed to sustain life.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 6:29 AM

You are toooo fragile, as you are carbon based and grown up under warm Sun, with no Ultraviolet coming down

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#16
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 6:54 AM

with no Ultraviolet coming down - I think we had everything coming down on us except rain.

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 8:13 AM

There was a "Twilight Zone" episode along this idea....I think the alien was nitrogen based....anyway like you said, we assume that all life is carbon based (because all that we have found is) and we assume that oxygen and water are necessary for the potential growth of anything resembling a sentient being. But really, who knows? As far as the idea of an external intelligence being responsible for the creation of life (or even the universe)...I also believe in that (God). It does seem that (especially in forums like this) belief in God is somewhat shunned, but let us not forget that some of the greatest minds in science (like Albert Einstein) believed in a supreme being......I'm just saying.....why do so many people seem to think that science and God are mutually exclusive? Einstein once said something to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing here), to find a theory of everything would be like reading the face of God. But enough of that. I haven't heard of a planet like this being found yet, I thought they had found mostly gas giants so I'll have to look into this. It sounds fascinating though.

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#26
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 1:00 AM

Outer Limits - it was one of the really good ones!

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#25
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 12:57 AM

Did you know that many Arab people eventually wind up suffering from silicon related respiratory disorders?

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#18

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 9:26 AM

Here is a link that has further, in depth discussion on this subject. Interesting!

http://www.solstation.com/stars/eps-erid.htm

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#20

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 2:42 PM

introducing god or an external intelligence to a chain of events is the equivalent of saying, "then a miracle happened." Science is largely the investigation of miracles until they can be understood. If you're working to understand a large system, you can momentarily put aside parts that you think are beyond current science (time, gravity, and extra dimensions come to mind) in order to make sense of the things that are understandable given current science, but that is always a temporary thing. You might get a laugh out of a class my putting an unknown process in a box and labeling it "then a miracle happened..." but that isn't science.

The problem with basing life on silicon is that as a result of respiration, we create carbon dioxide, a gas. If you replaced every carbon atom in our bodies with a silicon atom, you would be exhaling silicon dioxide, which is sand. Carbon is much more reactive than silicon and it takes less energy to cause oxygen to combine with it. If we were exhaling silicon dioxide, we would have to take in energy voraciously for the sole purpose of maintaining respiration. Most of the things that make up life as we know it go on outside of living structures--things decay (oxidize) resulting in a release of carbon dioxide. Iron rusts. Complex carbohydrates rot. All of these things when brought together enable a body to live. Fluorine and chlorine are so highly reactive that you only find them bound, generally with metals in the form of salts. A lot of oxygen is also bound into salts, but it is less reactive so it can coexist with wood and flesh and metals and their oxidation is very slow--oil tanks in an old oil field can stand there for centuries slowly flaking into rust before they disintegrate. If the oxygen in the atmosphere were replaced with fluorine or chlorine, these tanks would burst into flame and collapse in minutes or hours to a pile of iron fluoride or iron chloride.

Likewise, water is a powerful solvent--almost everything will eventually dissolve in water and crystalize out of it. But despite the action of this solvent, ships can float, boats can float, people can swim, fish can live, and so on. If water were just a bit more powerful as a solvent, it would dissolve ships, boats, people, and fish. The soda lakes in the mountains of east Africa will eat your boot right off your foot if you foolishly step in them. They'll eat your skin off your hand if you touch them. And that's just water with a bit of sodium and a bit of carbon dioxide mixed in. Imagine if the oceans were full of sulfuric or carbolic acid. Nothing could survive. The dead sea is an example of a body of water that is just a little bit more salty than the ocean. Nothing lives there except a microscopic brine shrimp. I don't think anything lives in the Great Salt Lake of Utah (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong), even after millions of years of evolution. Pupfish live in the 120 degree streams that feed into death valley, and I believe pupfish would have had the opportunity to colonize the Great Salt Lake, but evidently they couldn't adapt to the salinity of the water.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 9:49 PM

This letter is full of concepts, based on what human being has experienced. Unfortunately human being is incapable of imagining beyond his experience.

Regardig respiration: Why (probable) being based on some other base chemistry should respirate? Resipiration is our idea here.

Carl Sagan says: Oxygen is most poisonaous gas. It oxidizes every thing which comes in contact. Still beings on earth learnt to live on it.

Famous and eminent scientist Fred Hoyle imagined an intelligent clould. Why we can not imagine some thing like that. If we can not imagine, atleast we should accept that Nature (some may say god) can create something which needs something entirely different than what we need (oxygen and water) and there and there could be entirely different mechanism of living.

Assuming something based on our experience.. Carl Sagan say as chauvenism. So this is Oxygen and Water Chauvenism

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#28
In reply to #20

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 1:20 AM

Drink water from the dead sea, and you're a dead guy! It's that toxic with salts.

Above the Silicon Valley is Alum Rock park, there's a lot of geothermal activity there. The smell of sulphur is everywhere. I was sitting on the bank of a little stream that was two feet across and about two feet deep. I noticed a lot of plant life, and little fish swimming to-and-fro. I put my hand in the water, and was shocked and amazed at how hot the water really was!

In Yellowstone National Park, they've found bacteria that thrive in the thermal vents at temperatures in excess of 250° F.

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#39
In reply to #20

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/30/2007 12:30 AM

Pure water is not a good solvent.

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#23

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/27/2007 9:55 PM

We are carbon base mineral water bags because that is the optimum system in this bi om. If not something else may have evolved.

We can't say there is no life on Venus. Our equipment don't survive long enough to Know for sure. What we do know is Venus would not support life as we know it. That goes for most of the planets in this system.

If there was life in the sun and others like it would we recognize it? How?

At the opposite end metalloid silicon based life may only be at superconducting temps.

Our frame of reference is biased. With a statistical base of one system, we only have our system as a working model. So we look mostly in similar conditions.

Personally I think we should already be living on the Moon and Mars. If mankind spent 1/10 to 1/100 of what goes to war on space the outpost on Pluto would be upset about loosing planet status.

I want to retire on the Moon. So what if I couldn't come back due to bone loss.

2cents from

Brad

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#30

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/28/2007 11:47 AM

Puny humans! We, the silicon-based, shall destroy you and your puny planet!

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#34
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Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/29/2007 3:13 AM

Whoops! I think about half your army just went into my new concrete deck! Sorry about that!!!

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#31

Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/28/2007 12:49 PM

This piece dates back to 1996, probably earlier. The brilliant author is, tragically, unknown:

------------------

Imagine if you will... the leader of the fifth invader force speaking to the commander in chief...

"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars."

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in the sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!"

"So... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Finally, Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

"So what does the meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat?"

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"

"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multi-beings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

"And we can mark this sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone."

---------------------------------

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#32
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/28/2007 2:41 PM

Sounds like the work of Frederic Brown! LOVE it!

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#33
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/28/2007 9:50 PM

Very nice.

It exactly depicts, how we are not believing any other form of life.

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#35
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/29/2007 3:40 AM

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#36
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/29/2007 7:28 AM

< http://www.rsi.com/spam/ >

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Glorious Spam, Wonderful Spam!

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#40
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/30/2007 12:35 AM

Beautiful! We love meat!


http://www.spamarama.com/index.html

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#41
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

12/30/2007 7:10 AM

And SPAM is, at least in theory, meat...

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#42
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/01/2008 2:35 AM

The term "all meat" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

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#44
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/02/2008 7:35 AM

Yeah, it's that "all" part that gets me to wondering...

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#43
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/02/2008 4:32 AM

This piece dates back to 1996, probably earlier. The brilliant author is, tragically, unknown:

Actually the date is April 1991 and the author is Terry Bisson!

It was also made into a short film by Stephen O'Regan and won the Grand Prize at the Science Fiction Museum's SF Short Film Festival in Seattle in 2006.

Happy Happy New Year!!

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#45
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/02/2008 11:28 AM

THANK YOU, MAURICE!!

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#46
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/03/2008 10:41 AM

Welcome Maurice do you know of the....... Pompatus of love?

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#47
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Re: Non-Carbon Life Forms?

01/03/2008 11:53 AM

Welcome Maurice do you know of the....... Pompatus of love?

Thanks CR3

A song about me? Couldn't be! Must be number 3!! But, to make sure, I'll ask the wife

Maurice

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#37

Re: Epsilon Erandi - fact or fiction?

12/29/2007 4:48 PM

yes I am very familiar with the planet, as a matter of fact I have exclusive property rights and I am selling 1-3 acre lakefront and waterfront parcels/ u build of course. there are no building requirements, no permits to buy, and the views along with the weather are just perfect. the economy is robust and piceulands (6 legged meat animals) are in abundance. Therefore, for $500.00 to cover the cost of shipping and handeling I will send you my free no obligation prespectus and parcel surveys, so hurry to get the best parcels. If you buy now I will waive the documentary stamps and the first three years of taxes. Each parcel is priced from the low $5000.00 per acre. so act now to take advantage of this prime oppurtunity.

Also, sometime during the next mellinnium we will have excursions to the planet simply for your enjoyment, so buy now while prices are inexpensive.

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