More Burn From Gasoline

Hmmmm, you have some interesting points. But knowing what we do about political spending, would you really give the politicians more money to spend as they please?

Once long ago gas taxes were, by law, exclusively used for road building and maintenance. This was a promise the politicians made when they enacted the "road tax" as my grandfather called it. Then the politician's saw those huge sums and started chipping away at that promise until today none of the gas tax is used for road maintenance. It has all been diverted to pay for welfare and other social programs while our highways suffer from crumbling pavement and fallen bridges.

I oppose any new taxes on fuel unless some type of IRREVOCABLE legislation will assure those taxes will be applied to repairing our crumbling highways and bridges.

Here, here . . . . I couldn't agree more. Just like the toll booths erected to pay for the Mass Turnpike. (MTA) Those were supposed to go away when the construction costs were paid for. But like any quasi-public agency, these bureaucracies are little more than political plums for whoever is currently in office to reward their cronies with jobs after they get elected. Once these monstronsities are in place, no donkey or elephant wants to get rid of them. There is usually another state agency that could absorb the responsibilities of the facilities overseen without the duplication in overhead expenses, headquarters, staff, etc.

<....I couldn't agree more. Just like the toll booths erected to pay for the Mass Turnpike. (MTA) Those were supposed to go away when the construction costs were paid for....>

Same here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartford_Crossing

Hi PWSlack. I wanted to tell you how much I enjoy those links you so thoughtfully provide. Your links took me to a site on steam powered vehicles I never knew (or imagined) existed. A steam powered lawnmower and a steam powered tricycle are just a few of the many oddities you introduced me to. Thanks TK

Responding to taejonkwando's comment: "But knowing what we do about political spending, would you really give the politicians more money to spend as they please? "

You are quite justified by the record to distrust our politicians. Personally, I am appalled by the graft and corruption in road construction (among many). However, I think it would be better to press forward for this tax, expecting corruption but bracing to thwart as much of it as we can.

I think that the public acknowledgement of political corruption has been exclaimed for so long that just the fear of it is paralyzing our ability to govern ourselves. At some point, we need to yell "enough" and hound our wayward politicians. That is not likely to happen gradually. In a Democracy, we tend to get the government we deserve. Over many decades now, we have let our standards continually slip. They are not going to just drift upward on their own. It would take a remarkable event to bring this problem to a head. Hopefully the ensuing uproar would lead us to bring in a new era where such recklessness with public funds would impart shame on those who tried.

Responding to Brave sir Robin's comment: " Just like the toll booths erected to pay for the Mass Turnpike. ...these bureaucracies are little more than political plums for whoever is currently in office ...:

I am disgusted with the waste done on the Ohio Turnpike. Very good Plazas were torn down and rebuilt, mainly because the money was there and restraints are loose. Furthermore, I think it is extremely inefficient, is a nuisance and is a traffic hazard to collect Tolls. It would be far more streamlined to just have the taxes adjusted to cover these projects and allocate them sensibly. Obviously this system has not worked well in the past, but I think that is mainly a reflection on our collective complacency.

By now you are probably thinking I am an idealist ...and YES I am! I think it is important to point ones goals toward what seems to be the best overall solutions. That way ones efforts are more on target. It is expected that reality will fall short, but the struggle should persist, ever honing the situation to chase the goal.

As humanity is pressed ever harder by the problems from overpopulation, unsustainable consumption, degrading environment, global warming, species extinction ... we will find it ever more critical that we learn to organize ourselves well enough to make the smart decisions AND implement them without straying, all while preserving individual freedoms. Complacency and corruption need to be driven from tolerability.

I think a Gas Tax is a good "remarkable event" to start the battle.

Some friends of mine sold out their construction co. (road related) because they were tired of dealing with the corruption/mob/union in the northwest. Pity they did very good work for reasonable rates. I would guess that was the problem.

Brad

True, you are an idealist and pose some very noble arguments however the reality is far from the ideal you propose I fear.

I wish it were not so but we all know added taxes will hurt the poor the most and the middle classes will pay most or all of the bill. The rich employ lawyers whose exclusive task is to prevent taxation of their employer's wealth so the impact of another fuel tax will not seen in their budgets. But in this country rising prices and static wages are causing many families to decide what they will no longer enjoy.

An additional tax such as you envision will produce hardships and perhaps death in many families which are already stressed to the limit with today's plunging dollar's purchasing power and escalating prices. One only needs to look in the daily paper to find an article about some elderly couple frozen to death because their limited income allowed no more choices between food or heating oil.

We are no longer a nation of benevolence. At one time we fought and died for the liberty of others in their land. We gave our money to our defeated enemies and raised them to power once again. We contributed massively to world peace with our blood, money and energy and yet today our own starve because we have lost our ethical fundamentals which made the world a better place to live.

I fear our government now and its potential use of taxation as a form of oppression. I respect your idealism and admire your purpose. There must be other ways to accomplish your goal of eliminating or minimizing our realince on petroleum rather than a puntative tax. I hope you will use your intelligence and considerable persuasive skills to propose other less damaging means to accomplish your goals. TK

Hi TK

If I was eligible to vote in the US (I'm not) I'd vote for you.

In three short paragraphs you have spoken more sense than the combined debates of all the presidential hopefuls.

As long as there are people like you around, there is still hope.

Chances are you have WAY too much integrity to be a politician though!

Thank you for your vote of confidence. However, even though I have been accused of cheating at Crazy Eights and a few other card games by my children and grandchildren, I feel these transgressions leave me vastly underqualified in nefarious character attributes to ever aspire to political worthyness.

taejonkwando,

You are spouting the standard fears of the status quo which I think are inhibiting our ability to change them. These are not physical laws. They are "Social Norms" which we have decided to accommodate. Certainly the battle between the rich with all their inherent armaments and the poor will continue ad infinitum. Life itself is a struggle. However, once we decide to question the "norms" we open up a path to creative ways to change them ...to put things in balance.

I notice you quickly appended an adjective "putative tax". If you pre-emptively distort the goal, you will have already lost the ability to realize it. The Gas Tax I am referring to is not some simple policy. In order to protect the disadvantaged and resist attacks from the rich or dishonest, a lot of intricate planning would need to be done. Once a viable Tax was implemented, there would be many adjustments required as the numerous rough edges became apparent. This would be a battle, not a cake walk! ...but then the Europeans taxed their fuel highly all along and look how well they did!

You say "We are no longer a nation of benevolence." I tend to agree that has been in decline. However, if we are to succeed in the coming years ...and centuries, we will have to regain that attribute. Maybe our social fabric has worn too thin. Maybe we won't have the will or perseverance to fix it. Maybe our level of accepted corruption and greed has reached critical mass. Maybe we will join the Romans ...or maybe we will procrastinate until things get so bad we will have to take the risk and make the effort. One attribute we Americans like to claim is the ability to adapt.

It's nice to hope for alternatives to a Gas Tax. I do not wish to squelch pursuits along other avenues. However, how restrictive would some of these other policies be? We are doing a lot of griping now about the price of gas (yet still much lower than what it costs in most other countries). How petty will this appear in the face of actual SHORTAGES?

I started the "punitive" adjective on the gas tax you propose because that's what it would be. Unless of course you use that tax to improve the roads. You can figure out how long it will take a politician to dip into that kitty for some other 'noble' purpose. We really need to go back and take a good hard look at our Constitution and see if we are living up to that document. I suspect our Federal Government is going well beyond the definitions laid out in the Constitution. That's why we have States to take care of those things not specifically addressed by the Constitution. If our Constitution is not right, we have a way to address that.

Why is there a battle between the rich and the poor? Why couch it in those terms? Life itself is a struggle? I don't think life is a struggle. Yes, I work and at times work very hard, but to call it a struggle suggests a fight. I'm not fighting anybody in my job, unless I am called upon to fight in my other job. I provide services and intellectual property for which I am compensated. I need to provide value to receive something of value in return. Nothing new there.

Fuel is not the only thing Europeans tax highly. They live under oppressive tax codes and their economies show it. I don't think you will find living in Europe as rose colored as you might think. I believe you will find much greater upward mobility and opportunity in this country than you will anywhere else. I'm sure someone has compiled figures on it.

I started the "punitive" adjective on the gas tax

Being a pedantic twit, I couldn't help but notice that you used "punitive", Tae used "puntative" (which would have to do with football) and Ray8 used "putative" (meaning something assumed to be correct).

I believe you will find much greater upward mobility and opportunity in this country than you will anywhere else. I'm sure someone has compiled figures on it.

There are all sorts of indices. Here's the Wikipedia article on the Human Development Index. We are #12 on this, although I just read that the UK has overtaken us. This article lists several other indices. The Gini Coefficient is interesting because is shows the degree of inequality. As the UK has prospered, the degree of inequality has also increased, so the rich are getting richer, but the poor are doing no better, or worse. The same is true in the US, and even more dramatically true in China. Norway is very well-to-do, but also fairly equal.

Where we do really poorly is in violent crime. There is no other highly-developed nation close to us. Our rate is .042 per 100 people, whereas Japan's is .005 per 1000. Finland is the closest to us from the highly-developed world (unless you include Russia), with a rate of .028 (2/3 of our rate). Australia, settled by criminals, has a rate about 1/3 of ours, and New Zealand's rate is about 1/4 ours.

The Suits Index measures the equality or inequality of taxation. Regressive taxes, which rely heavily on the poor, have negative values. Progressive taxes, which rely more heavily on the rich, have positive values. The article uses gasoline tax (as well as vehicle tax and especially tobacco tax) as examples of negative Suits Index taxes.

Fuel is not the only thing Europeans tax highly. They live under oppressive tax codes and their economies show it.

I've spent time in many European countries, and have not found anyone who feels oppressed by the tax code -- I'm sure such people exist (as they do here) but in my experience Europeans enjoy very high standards of living, with far lower crime rates, and less income inequality. There also tends to be far higher value placed on family interaction and work-life balance. Many Europeans take off a full month with pay during the summer. Certainly, for those making $500,000 and up, the US offers more opportunities for even higher income. But for more ordinary incomes, the European standard, with low crime and tax-supplied health care seems pretty good.

"You are spouting the standard fears of the status quo". True but over time these "standard fears" have proven to be valid. If "standard fears" result in "inhibiting our ability to change them" then I think they are warranted.

I have standard fears. We all do because we have learned of the hazards in this world, both natural and man made. What you are proposing is a hazard to health and prosperity. This country became prosperous because of cheap fuel. Now we must find an alternative but that search must not be funded at the expense of a sustaining standard of living or at the expense of lives.

You dismiss the hardships of the poor with "Certainly the battle between the rich with all their inherent armaments and the poor will continue ad infinitum" ignoring the fact your tax proposal will only diminish the quality of life for the poor while quite possibly enhancing the wealth of the rich.

"In order to protect the disadvantaged and resist attacks from the rich or dishonest, a lot of intricate planning would need to be done".

And who will we trust to be magnamimous and benelovent in our behalf and "protect the disadvantaged" with this "intricate planning"? Our politicians, the ones who will enact the legislation you propose or the political lobbyists who represent special interests? Surely you jest.

As you said your are an "idealist" but unrealistic as most idealists are. In the real world your tax scheme would only hurt, not help. We are already suffering from putative taxation.

Increasing the putative taxes on petroleum will only cause more privation and give the government more reasons to ask for more. It is axiomatic taxes never diminish, only increase. Even today, sixty one years after WW II, we still pay federal excise taxes on many goods.

"but then the Europeans taxed their fuel highly all along and look how well they did!"

The Europeans also prospered from many influences, The Marshall Plan at the end of WW II restored many devastated European countries to a viability on par with our economy at that time. Fuel tax had little to do with Europe's economic recovery. Many Europeans have never owned an automobile relying entirely on walking, bicycles and an existing excellent public transportation system.

"How petty will this appear in the face of actual SHORTAGES?"

This discussion won't appear petty at all because shortages will affect the rich as well as the poor. The rich will be affected because the buying public will not be buying.

This is an economic reality most recently discussed in the Wall Street Journal and there is great concern this may occur with many fearing a repeat of the economic collapse experienced in the early 70's when gasoline supplies were limited. However this impending collapse will be far more catastrophic considering the dollar's unstable value in the world today and our government's huge deficit indebtedness.

Dear Taejonkwando, Bravo on the irrevocable, however according to the tax codes we, in 2008, are still paying for WWII! I for one (and probably many others) would like to see some accountability from these vultures! Let us repeal some of the taxes the governments (federal and local) that we have been burdened with.

P.S. My apologies for the exclamations. I become very incensed about this sort of nonsense. Taxes were much lower when I was younger.

Dragon

Taxes were much lower when I was younger.

You must live somewhere other than the US. Here, when I started working the top taz rate was 70%. It dropped to 50% in 1982 and to 28% in 1988.

Dear Blink, I never said how old I was when I started working nor how old I am now.

Dragon

Dear Dragon, no apologies needed for the exclamations. I often feel the need to hit that button also, especially when the conversation is about taxes. I didn't know we were still paying for WW I.

Not too long ago someone came by my office with a book titled "Losing Wealth: The Secret War Against the Middle Class" which was printed back in the early sixties. In it the author maintained the government viewed the middle class as field to be cultivated for more productive crops thus producing more taxable revenue.

The rich were viewed as the rain and sunshine bringing wealth to create more wealth and grow the middle class field of prosperity. The poor were generally viewed as parasites, some necessary to provide services to the middle class and aid in the harvesting of wealth.

In this paradigm the entire tax burden was upon the shoulders of the middle class. The author predicted a day in the future when the over worked middle class would shrink, the poor would multiply and the rich would no longer invest in America but invest in other countries. It seems as though, some forty seven years ago, this author was indeed a prophet.

As members of the middle class our burden is fund the government and it's prolific spending programs. Additional taxation is the method of maintaining the "harvest" as more of the middle class lose wealth,economically sinking toward the poverty threshold. For the remaining middle class, the black hole of increasing taxes will draw them inevitably toward an economic event horizon creating a final death spiral for this economic system.

Amazing, the 100th post to this thread. Quite the discussion here. I'm impressed.