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Anonymous Poster

Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 7:58 PM

Dear sir,

i am working biggest hotel in the UAE.Recently we have power supply

problems see the diagram.

We are using 11Kv/440 v distribution system.

We are mostly using our loads all Electronics example (AC Digital controllers, Plasma TV, Digital Light Dimming system and exact……). So due to this ourLoads getting burn..

We have problem Y phase and B phase only..

Our Voltage analyzer meter showing Neutral to Earth has 220Volt. This voltage

Only getting few second not always example some time taking two or three days.

We don't have any problem in R phase.

Now we are checking the cablings and panels. We can't found any thins still now? For time being we can not shutdown the transformer.

Do you have any information about problem?

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#1

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 9:30 PM

Hello Guest,

I am attempting to answer your questions.

Please advise if I have interpreted your problem incorrectly.

<".....see the diagram"> = ????: You have omitted the diagram.

<"We are using 11Kv/440 v distribution system"> = HT Supply to transformer voltage is 11kV, and your Mains voltage is 440/240Volts.

<"We are mostly using our loads all Electronics example (AC Digital controllers, Plasma TV, Digital Light Dimming system and exact……). So due to this ourLoads getting burn.."> = Some things are getting burned out, due to undervoltage.

<"We have problem Y phase and B phase only.."> Only those phases of the transformer secondary mains supply are affected.

<"We don't have any problem in R phase."> = That phase is quite OK.

<"Our Voltage analyzer meter showing Neutral to Earth has 220Volt. "> There should not be any Voltage between Neutral and Earth, perhaps you have made a typing error there..

V"This voltage

Only getting few second not always example some time taking two or three days." = 220 Volts as Phase to Neutral on a 440 Volts per phase system is too low - Voltage should be 240 Volts/phase to neutral for your system. It seems the problem is intermittent, and occurs some days apart.

<"Now we are checking the cablings and panels. We can't found any thins still now?"> = You have checked all Cabling, Switchboard panels. You have found nothing wrong.

<"Do you have any information about problem?">

Are you experienced to do testing on the 11kV system?

My suggestion is that you may have an intermittent fault on a single High Tension Phase on the 11kV side of the transformer.

This could be a partial failure of HT Supply from the electricity provider, HT fuse or HT Circuit breaker, or within the transformer itself, on the Primary side.

If you are unable to shut down the transformer, you should have 3 phase 440 Volt alternators for emergency supply to run the hotel.

I would carefully check your switching arrangements, and run that emergency alternator system, ensuring that there can be no feedback into the transformer secondary.

Once you have done that, isolate the transformer, placing earth stick connections onto the primary and secondary cables of the transformer, disconnect the cable connections at the transformer, and ensure any control circuits, Current transformer connections and tap-changer connections are properly disconnected for safety and testing of the transformer..

Using a Kelvin Bridge, carefully check the transformer windings and connections, note down the DC resistances very carefully, and compare each phase of the Primary with the other Primary phase resistances - they should be almost identical, to several decimal places.

Repeat the Kelvin Bridge Tests on the Secondary, compare phase readings, which should also agree within several decimal places.

Using a 5,000 Volt Megger, or similar Insulation tester, test the 11kV primary windings to Earth (Transformer case) - (ensure each winding tested for 5 minutes). There should be extremely high DC resistance, almost infinity.

Using a 1,000 Volt Megger, or similar Insulation tester, test the 440V secondary windings to Earth (Transformer case) - (ensure each winding tested for 5 minutes). There should be extremely high DC resistance, almost infinity.

OK, now check your tap changer on the transformer, (if you have one) - You should have a manual supplied with the Transformer to show you the test sequence.

Once you have tested Transformer and (tap Changer) and proved that OK, and the hotel runs OK with no problems on the Standby Alternator, you have proved that Alternator, Transformer, Tap Changer, Cabling, Switchboards are OK.

That leaves a possible intermittent failure of a single 11kV phase: Fuse, Circuit Breaker.

Are you experienced to do testing on the 11kV system?

Is the Hotel 11kV supply from another Supplier? - If so, the problem is proven to be their problem, and you need to ensure they quickly locate the fault in their system, and repair it, before further damage occurs to hotel and guests equipment.

Advise back here please, with your progress.

Kind Regards....

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 9:48 PM

you like use the icon, what does it mean?(off toopic)

but

Using a 5,000 Volt Megger, or similar Insulation tester, test the 11kV primary windings to Earth (Transformer case) - (ensure each winding tested for 5 minutes). There should be extremely high DC resistance, almost infinity.

you must be making a kidding. he said he cannt stop supply power now!

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 10:25 PM

Hello cnpower

is just a small emoticon I generally add to my posts - no particular reason, although I do have an animated version but it is easier to just click on the CR4 smiley in the Menu Bar, and add the one I chose.

I realise he said the transformer cannot be shut down, but for proper tests, at some time he will require the transformer to be disconnected.

I listed the short procedure to keep power onto the hotel, disconnect and test the transformer.

I trust that explains why I wrote the procedure in my earlier Post.

Kind regards....

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 12:00 AM

right。

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#2

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 9:33 PM

Diagram does not appear to be present.

Based on what you are saying, are you trying to say that sometimes the voltage measured between Neutral and Earth jumps from 0V (in an electrical system where Neutral and Earth are solidly bonded together) to (roughly) the same potential as the phase to Earth voltage (which I believe is 220V as standard)?

Strange that you are saying it is only effecting two of the three phases.

Any chance of re-posting the drawing?

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#3

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 9:35 PM

Where is diagram?

three phase, how many wires feed system?

Does transformer short circuit?

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 10:01 PM

Check your load to see if its heavily unbalance.

check transfermer to see if one phase short circuit.

check your neutral line to see if it breaks.

[everyone of us agree, there must not be voltage on it]

check your leakage electric protector.

so high is your equipment and appliances. ours ' is only 220v. only industrial equipment like motor etc use 380V.

If you cannt scann the diagram, take a photo , so that we can analysis for more details.

pls remember, neutral point cannt have any voltage!

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#4

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 9:37 PM

There is loose connection in neutral path.Start checking the neutral path from transformer .You have said some equipments are burning .are these burning equipments located in particular feeder or spread over? if it spreadover then the problem is at the source,if it is in particular section then the problem will be from that particular feeder.

There may be 4 pole breakers--check the 4 th pole for contacts-check termination.

Analyse the neutral path for any links,-check the links for firm contact ,check the terminations.

Your problem is "neutral breaking at sometimes"

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#8

Re: Distribution problems.

02/18/2008 11:13 PM

Hello Guest,

I can understand the stress you must be under, to have such problem in service industry ( Hotels).

1 Check the neutrals for loose connections.

2.The neutral should be bonded to earth, at the incomer (at the transformer secondary).

Hope you are using a 11kv/440v Dyn11 transformer.

3. Check your earth pit.

4. Check the individual distribution panels for loose neutrals.

Last but not least, keep us posted about the staus of the problem and your findings..

Good luck.

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#10

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 12:06 AM

why does your district use so high voltage for appliance supply?

How shall I export equipment to your district?

Our voltage is 220v.

In the past my eqipment ever exported to that district, do they have to use a match transformer to change the voltage of 440v to 220v?

i.e. add a 2:1 transformer extra?

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 1:30 AM

Hello cnpower

They will use this system:

Primary 3 phase, 11,000 Volts between phases, delta primary connected transformer.

Secondary of Transformer = Mains Power to Consumer = 3 phase 440 Volts between phases, and 240 Volts between each Phase and Neutral, Star Connected with the star point connected to Earth or Ground.

This System can be used equally with a MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) or single Earthed Neutral Electrical distribution system.

3 Phase with 11kV between phases, is a common transmission system, the 11kV Supply reduces cable size and also the voltage drop percentage of the supply voltage.

Normal Electrical Distribution systems in almost all the World, use Delta connected primaries and star connected secondary on all transformers.

That way control and protection circuitry is isolated from the other voltage, also is much safer that way.

Kind Regards....

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 2:12 AM

you are right.

440-40=400 / 3 1/2= 231V

440-20=420/1.73 = 242v

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 2:07 AM

this must be a stupid question I post.

just think 3phases 440v = single 440 /31/3 = 254v

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Anonymous Poster
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 2:50 AM

check your THD (total harmonic distortion)

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 4:04 AM

where is THD?

which thread do you reply?

---

(1/3===1/2 above change)

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#16

Re: Distribution problems.

02/19/2008 10:55 PM

Hello All Members,

Just to advise that our Topic Starter (Guest) has posted the Distribution diagram here:http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/17925/Distribution-problems-line-diagram

Presumably the Topic Starter has not realised that the Discussion could have continued in this same Topic Thread here.

Perhaps best if the discussion continues in that new Topic Thread.

Kind Regards....

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