Made In China MNC Branded Products

When u go for cheaper products, the quality of product will also be cheap.

Choose the product based on quality not on the price.

Hi suresh

I agree with you one would expect the holder of the brand name to guard over there quality under there name.

Long time ago we all bought HP products made outside of the USA and the quality was good.

I had a HP 35 calculator made in Singapore (I think) and dropped it 10m. I picked it up and continued calculating.

I think as with the paint scares that the companies that are doing business with China have gotten to comfortable with them and are starting to over look production quality. They are now willing to except poor products as long as they show a profit. A lot of the public is willing to take the hit on their pocket book then take the time and trouble to return bad products.

Maybe I was a bit hard on HP and other brand names, they are hard hit by counterfeit items available in the market.

Keep in mind that made in Japan used to carry the same stigma 40 years ago, but by making very poor quality/cheap products and profiting they made enough to finance quality improvements and make in-roads into higher profit markets. Now made in Japan in advanced products typically means better quality than made in US. So to my Grandfather, made in Japan still carries a bit of a stigma, but to a 20 year old it represents the best available quality in technology and many other products for the price expediture. There was a time when made in America carried a stigma of poor quality/cheap products amongst Europeans (admittedly more than 150 years ago, but still..). In Japan's case the advancement was stiffled by limitations on their technology and resources. We are not seeing this with China, they are receiving the training in technological advancements, production and exporting to the US at an accelerated pace (in part due to the greed of a few corporations willing to violate patents and other intellectual properties rights), have more available resources than Japan, far less environmental restrictions, and very cheap labor. Given these advantages, they should be producing better quality than US producer in maybe 15 to 20 years

The problem is that with Japan, the people benefit from the profit, so they are willing to advance their technology and invested in their product to make it better. However, with China, I think the government got most of the benefit and not the people who make the product. Therefore, the technology and advancement might not be there. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I hope that I'm wrong, but I hear too many story about how a company is making a good profit, and the government just took it over (or the very least, have a big influence with it).

From a personal point of view, my mother's family used to own a pharmacy in China (this going back long long time ago), they're doing very well, and then the revolution, and the government took everything.

Anyway, I hope things have changed for the better, both for the people and the country as a whole.

MidniteFighter

China has recognized that people perform better when there is profit involved.

They have changed some rules there and are allowing people to keep more of their profit.

It is because of these relaxation of rule that has made China and area of growth for various Franchises.

This is true. The labor force actually earns more than they would have in other industries, and the wages are slowly increasing. The demand for wage increases has actually caused some transition in the market in China, with some of the early investors looking to new countires, like indonesia and malaysia, for new sources of cheap slave labor. While this transition occurs, some other industries from 1st world countries have begun to notice the acceptable level of modernization and the industry protections afforded them by the Chinese government, and transfer some production loads into china for cost benefts. This is not unusual, but for some reason we are particularly sensitive to china, korea or japan. When Intel transfers huge chunks of its production to Israel because Israel gives them huge tax incentives and assistance, Americans news does appear to not notice and comment. Keep in mind we pay the Israeli government more than any other country in US Aid and they use it to draw Top US Technology companies away. On the other hand we don't pay much aid at all to the Chinese, and they use their wealth draw away our relatively unskilled production.

The problem is in finding anything that is not "Made in China" crap. Is there a company in Europe or the US that makes those products at home? I haven't seen one as our manufacturing jobs move to China. I would buy American or European made printers, radios, cell phones and small appliances if they were even available.

Many people make this claim, and i believe in the 80s you saw many actually try for a short while, but in the end you see the cheapest product always wins out with the general masses. After all if most of the people do it, then most of the money is flowing in that direction, and the american corporations look at outsourcing to cheaper less skilled labor sources (or in the auto industry case, cheaper more skilled labor) to be competitive, keep stock values up and increase profit margins. Walmart is the perfect example, nearly everyone you meet complains about the effects of Walmarts business tactics, but they still sell more than others in that industry, and maitiain high profits. This means alot of those people complain, but the low prices still draw them into make purchases, even though they complain. The same people complain, but still invest stock into Walmart, because in the end of the day they do not like what Walmart does but they do like the return on their stock investments. Nearly every ones greed overtakes their ethics. While there is evidence that education can mitigate the greed in favor of ethics to some degree, and cause more educated people to make better financial decisions, the majority of the populous is poorly educated and makes decisions on the immediate return with out further considerations. And, when you pay Produce brokers, Car salesmen, Real Estates Agents, Land Developers, General Contractors, etc. 2 to 5 times what you pay chemists, et. al.. This means there is more money in less educated hands, who invest poorly on spur of the moment. This is why there are investment bubbles and collapses in subprime mortagage markets.

You bring some very interesting ideas into this discussion, most notably the Walmart example.

Walmart dominates the retail sales market to such an extent its business practices force those who wish to compete to purchase from the same or similar low quality, low cost suppliers.

As you have observed, this leaves the consumer little or no choice in chosing superior products over cheap imitations because superior products no longer exist in this marketing environment.

Your comment regarding the wage differential between the service industries and technical employment is also valid. The fortunes spent on "bling" by entertainers and their minoins certainly support your contention that wealth is spent primarily for immediate gratification by the less educated.

Out sourcing has destroyed a large part of our skilled technical work force, not only here in America but in Europe as well. As the technical jobs flow from our countries so does the wealth of our experience, knowledge, craftmanship and pride.

Soon we will have no capability to produce superior goods. We will be dependent on whatever "they" allow us to have.

Well, eventually there will be transitions (swings) that occur in some markets, much like sectors of the automotive market in the 70's were becoming increasingly dominated by the japanese and competition for cheaper smaller poor quality product. In the 80's there was a public trend towards products made in america in sectors of the market, and the retail sellers started making profits by selling things labeled made in america. Sometimes these transitions away from cheap products occur because of some significant event caused by product quality issues, usually a significant number of child deaths, a movie star is displeased, or someone suffering in a manner that appeals to the general masses (the argument of the appeal actually doesn't even have to make sense just have the right showmenship). The masses are fickle and easily swayed, suprisingly frequently by people they admit have less sense than themselves. Diamonds, jewelry, women's fashion, sports memorabilia, etc.. are perfect examples of markets totally built on image and perception, and look at how profitable those markets are. Entertainers are problematic since they have the capital to expend on useless thing like "bling", but the promotion of such items to the general public as necessary for status, or bad for the environment, or any other thing they hear from some random security guard during a drug binge probably is irresponsible. More over, the fact that anyone listens to their rants is just naive. So if britney children get sick from, Alec Baldwin hears something after a couple of cocktails, or Paris' poodle dislikes a product made in china, and some security guard convinces them that it is because products from China are bad, then their will be a more unifed public response against chinese products. But while it is just their own childrens safety and health, and they can save $0.02 at Walmart, it will be business as usual. Though if chinese wages keep rising at the rate they are, it might be indonesian or nigerian products that are the issue in 5 years. I hear that some chinese manufacturers, in order to maintain demand and compete for the labor force are paying up to $0.50 per day, up from $0.25 (and Walmart's producers apparently offer some of the highest wages).

Regarding the loss of skilled labor. Well when people vote for free trade because they somehow believe that a guy earning $0.10 could somehow save enough to buy a Dell computer, but run to earn $0.20 per day to manufacture Dell computers to sell in the US, maybe deserves to be working at McDonald's. Though i do believe their should be more laws inacted to protect the intellectual working capabilities of the US. This presents a long term security issues as more countries gain technical knowledge, not from scientists or spies who are traitors, but from US corporations that train foreign nationals to produce for US markets products that are beyond their capacity to develop. It would be illegal for most americans to give much less advanced technology to China than these corporations train them to manufacture. We need to make these corporation responsible for their actions. It is my undrstanding that much of the problem is derived from the activities of the upper level managements attempts to improve profits on the books during their short tenure (they never stay long, part of the plan). Maybe the executives and president of corporations should be held accountable for the actions of their corporations personally just like any individual (even without direct knowledge of the actions, because they should have direct knowledge of their corporation and ignorance should not be an excuse), and serve the criminal sentence associated with the crime (rather than paying a negligible fine relative to the profits gained from the criminal endeavor). So Mattel poisons someone, their executives and president go to prison for conspiracy to commit manslaughter or murder. Of course we would need laws inacted that require all executives of corporations in the US reside in the US. I bet they would be much more concerned about rapidly recalling deficient products, public health and safety, and quality control. This might have an adverse effect though on the stock market and all the people now earning their livings off investments in unethical profit driven corporations would probably whine.

Oh My God! where the disscussion has led us. I would not like to write big essay on subject but I would like to summerise in short. 1) Profiteering at the cost of quality leading to accidents should be punishable every where in the world. 2) Corporations should first check up the capablities of the mfrs. before letting them mfr. under their brands. Products produced should be of same standards as if mfd. in parent country. 3) Quality should be consistant and there should be strick supervision and checks on the quality of the products produced. 4) If mfr.fails to mainten the quality then the agreement should be terminated.

You have my vote Suresh. I heartedly agree with your excellent summation . The solutions you have proposed will improve products the world over if incorporated into an enforceable worldwide law.

The novelty of criminal prosecution for executives who allow poorly manufactured goods into the marketplace is excellent. Defrauding a customer is the same as defrauding an investor. Extending the laws which protect investors from fraud to also protect the consumers is a step in the right direction.

Hello RCE, I agree with your assertion that public opinion is fickled and subject to the influences of Hollywood. The idea of Al Gore receiving an Oscar for a slide show filled with inaccuracies and propaganda is certainly proof of the influence of Hollywood.

The media is a powerful opponent to logic. Your evaluation of the entertainment/media industry is accurate. Emotional tirades do produce far more reaction from the media than cold hard facts. The public is then deceived by the media and in "AlGoreistic" fashion proclaims the deception to be true.

We have been Algored by so many media presentations that it becomes hard to separate the facts from the BS because many of the salient facts are never disclosed

I must point out the loss of skilled labor is affecting our manufacturing capabilities. Older workers are being sought by companies because the older workers bring skills and a "work ethic" which the younger generation seem to lack.

Those companies who depend on highly skilled work forces are actively recruiting older workers because ,as one recruiter said, "they know how the system works". There are many nuances in the manufacturing environment which cannot be documented or translated into transferable knowledge.

Experience is the best teacher and each company has it's own environment for success. A friend of mine worker for NCR for many years and he once said "If you work for NCR for five years you'll say "we" the rest of your life". The NCR corporate culture was so heavily induced into employees that it produced an intimate way of thinking about the company and it's goals.

The touching essays written by MOOSE about the loss of industry and it's effects including environmental issues also makes one wonder about the skills which were lost in the dissolution of once great industrial complexes. No longer do sons follow fathers into the manufacturing jobs which were once held in high esteem and kept towns and cities alive with their economic power.

Many jobs in such industries as aviation, oil, heavy manufacturing, etc, do not lend themselves to robotics or automation. Tasks are still performed by skilled workers. Outsourcing these jobs means outsourcing the entire manufacturing complex as well.

When jobs are lost in industries through out sourcing there is an economic impact. The "rust belt" economic blight happens everywhere outsourcing is prevalent. But the hidden effect is the loss of skills. Now someone else in another country is doing what you could do if that job was still available in your town. So now your skills are unmarketable in your own hometown (or country) and you either learn a new set of skills to survive or become lost in the welfare rolls.

Hopefully everyone can learn new skills and become productive again but a quick look at history will prove otherwise. The number of suicides, divorces and rising crime paint a morbid picture of failed social programs designed ease the loss of jobs due to outsourcing and manufacturing relocation.

So IMHO outsourcing reduces the quality of goods and causes far reaching negative consequences in the countries which lose those jobs. The irony of this situation is now some of those recipient countries are now finding their inherited jobs being outsourced to other less expensive labor forces. The old adage "what goes around, comes around" has never been more accurate when applied to outsourcing.

Hi Taejonkwando, You have given very clear picture of out sourcing and its conciquences. My question is that do Corporates have only one objective of Profiteering? Do they not carry any responsiblities towards society or nation as whole?. I would like narrate the picture of the situation at the countries where jobs are transfered. In India many young persons have opted for short terms jobs of Call Center operators.They have to work in nightshifts, which has led to murders by the drivers of some female employees who were picked up by vans in the late night hours. Some have become drug addicts and drunkards due to prosperty of getting thicker pay packets. I agree U.S was once big industrial nation producing quality goods such as Automobiles,Consumer Products,many other things. Proof of which is I have a "Ostrizer" Massager which was presented to me in 1970 and it still works.Also same make Hair Drier I bought during my last visit to U.S in 1991 is still working. The warantees are just piece of paper, who will go the court and fight out for few $ worth goods. It doesnt take much time to loose reputation of quality goods mfr. and established brand name, finaly masses will be wiser and they will reject such defective products,it is only question of the time. I understand that strong consumer movement for which U.S was wellknown has lost its sheen. I can only say let wisdom prevail in minds of everyone.

I have to say you are a gifted nontonal individual based on your posting but to be harsh on 1.6 billion tonal individual who are providing the cheapest capacity in the world. If we less material we would not need Wal-Mart at every corner or a need for the cheapest capacity in the world.

Thank you for sharing your insights.

Wall Street needs a profit regardless.

And when that happens, we'll have to change the name of our country to England!

Except UK has better consumer protection than US. We still suffer from the "Buyer Beware" school of thought regarding much of the sales activities of our corporations. This is why Ralph Nader should get a lot of votes, it would scare the hell out of the corporations that a consumer advocate might have the potential to win office and/or effect changes in the law. The american public has always gotten the best government from a three party system anyways, even when the third party doesn't win it forces the other parties to respond in a manner that promotes the changes the people want (not the parties special interests), e.g. Bull Moose Party, Republicans of the 1850s, etc.. I was watching a show the other night and they were explaining how the Fed was trying to keep the investment bubbles from collapsing to keep business profitable and pay for the war without any apparent efects on the markets, and part of the process had been to have the restrictions and oversight on corporate activities loosened to allow them greater latitude (or more illegal activities). So we give corporations a pass for 6 years and thing are worse than they were previously. Maybe we need to take a different tact and increase oversight and enforcement. Drive all the corrupt wealthy guys to China where they do business anyways, and let new innovative ethical corporations fill the void.

i agree with you all MNCs are looking at is that extra cent and don't bother about quality of the product and customer satisfaction many of the products comes with limited warranty (real meaning is No warranty) even big corporations are using this gimmick.

crm

Sharmajee

Where are you located .. for not getting non Chinese goods? In China itself.

It may be true for inkjet printer or Nokia mobile. But certainly not true for toaster and wrist watch. If you are staying in India (seems so from your name), Bajaj toasters are available. Very nice quality wrist watches are made in India. HMT is still a best one. Titan is available.

If you are not staying in India, many more choices should be available.

Thus it seems, though you deny, that you look for cheaper goods.

Besides,let me share my experience about Astronomical Telescope. I bought 10"Celestron Telescope.. best know US Telescope company at $5000. When the good arrived, I saw every thing was printed with "Made in China". I was worried. But surprisingly, quality is good. I can see beyond my expectations.

Here I didn't have choice of looking to the product. In your case you had a chance to look at product before you purchased. Still the problem?

My experience is not so bad about China.

I too, have a large aperture Celestron and it is truly a quality instrument (though $5,000.00 sounds a little high). Anyway, prior to buying a Celestron, I had a few Meades... You get what you pay for, and Celestron has been competing against Meade for years based on their quality, or so I found out!

My guess is that a bunch of guys from Celestron worked long and hard (and possibly with whips) to make sure of the quality! As I said before, that has always been their differentiator in the market. I don't think they would throw that away just for cheap labor!

Oh great!

So, you are also in Astronomy! One more good thread to join us as a friend, other than CR4, through CR4!

One thing that the Indians do very well is metal work, especially more antiquated forms of hand forging...

There is a company by the name of Museum Replicas Unlimited. For years, they've been selling ancient weapons (swords, axes, maces, etc) of the highest quality. Their product is not meant for display, it's literally made to be used on the battlefield - as good or better than the original thing. All their weapons are hand-forged and tempered in India by Windless Steel Craft. Their swords can be bent 5" inches out of true and spring back to perfect. They also take and hold a very superior edge and hold it!

Thank you, India!!!

Suresh,

I sympathise with you. I too have faced these problems. What I feel is that the Chinese are pushing 'seconds' in the Indian market. With the growing purchasing power of Indian middle class, the demand has skyrocketed. Coming with a brand name, we do not suspect the quality of the products. There is only marketing and sales and no service back-up or even a hint of it.

In Nov'07, I purchased a LENOVO Laptop, which is ofcourse made in China and was 'awarded' free gifts of cordless headphones and desktop speakers. I was asked to pay Rupees 750/- towards handling charges (Infact, that could be the price of those). I paid that money through a Demand Draft in Nov itself. I have been following up from Jan onwards and even booked a complaint with their 7x24 call center but nothing has materialised.

I suggest you book a complaint, which I am also going to do, with their Head office. Hopefully, things will be sorted out.

Best of luck.

In indian couldn't you have just walked down to their complaint center? It is interesting to see that nothing materializes even for indians when they call a large corporations call center. I believe that most Americans assume the issues with not getting adequate service from a call center is the difference in language between india and America (poor communication), but it sounds more like a poor performance of service in general.

Yes! basically we are discussing the poor performances of the large corporations. They are hiring the cheapest possible qualified labour from within India and exposing them to the world without proper training. This can serve only for a short time. There exists a world class competetive work force within India, but they are helpless too like the Americans who's jobs have been sourced out. This kind of working ethics on part of large corporations either in quality of products or after sales service is condemnable due to which two countries are earning bad name. Today, China is providing a hard working work-force and India, English speaking, qualified engineering graduates. Both countries actually competing with each other on population front. So they have more than handful of people to take care of. This is where the large corporations are taking advantage. They have opted for a short cut route to fast bucks at the expense of two large nations who seem to be oblivious of facts.

Do we have an International law to control this kind of practice?

I don't think so, this is what outsourcing is all about.

Like I mentioned before China is hiring quality assurance experts to get their production companies up to par with the rest of the world in Quality.

They want to be second rate about as much as anyone else. They know that if they can't export better quality materials that eventually the big corporations that are utilizing them will realize they are loosing money from customers taking their business elsewhere.

China doesn't want to lose that business. They want to improve on their GDP.

These MNCs and Indian Companies have taken it as granted that Indian customer is a fool &unfortunate thing is the existing laws supports these companies as time taken to solve the legal issues connected with deficient service provided by these company so called Customer help desk is just a gimmick even companies like Tatas,Vadaphone.etc you don't get any help except they would say they have received your complaint and & it will take 48hours to 15days to address your complaint and do nothing.

crm

This could be a problem of the dealer.

Please share your experience about quality of Laptop itself. I also puchased LENOVO laptop a year back. Till date it is working fine.

Mr.GSuhas, I am located in India. I think you have not understood my point of view. I have blamed MNCs with big brand names whose products are mfd. in China and have been not working satisfactorily as their original products should have. If you go through string of comments you will observe that mostly all of participants have agreed with me.Any how this blog is now old and there were many comments and I suppose it is now closed. Suresh Sharma.

LENOVO is kind of a mixed bag. I work for a very large company that you would recognize immediately if I told you the name. Here, no one gets a desktop, we all get laptops, docking stations and monitors. It works out rather well, actually. As it turns out we use only one brand, and that's LENOVO. So far, we've had about a 20% death figure, and about another 20% flaky factor. The dead ones are replaced and there are attempts to fix the flaky ones.

I don't know how this stacks up against other computer brands. Then, again, I'm assuming that the parts for the laptops are made all over the place. China simply selects those parts, and then assembles them. Could they be trying to cut their own costs by choosing parts with not the best pedigree?

We have similar quality problems in the UK. However we have a 'Sale of Goods' act which stipulates if you take or send the goods back to the vendor within the guarantee period saying it is broken or not fit for purpose they have to return your money. Some include a free post it back label in the pack if you buy by mail. Failing a response from the vendor you can claim to the relevant watchdog or trade association or trading standards and with enough complaints the vendor/company can be struck off trade associations. Trouble with watchdogs is that they are so snowed under with complaints that they can take months to resolve a case. I have a friend who had a house fire over two years ago and neither of the insurance companies involved got the builders to finish the job properly and a report with complaints to the ombudsman has still to be investigated. The last resort is the MP, some are good, some are hopeless. Trading Standards are quite efficient and there is the Small Claims court to claim through as well. Failing that I have found the name and address of the CEO of Chairman of the company involved and written a personal letter to them. They don't like direct intrusion into their personal lives like that, preferring to support the local football team or go on holidays but generally get a good response. Trouble is that time is always a premium and it does take some personal effort to insist on your rights.

Chinese (errr - Peoples Republic of China - not Tiawan) products are usually either completely rubbish or excellent, heavy industry is usually good. Dont forget a lot of their technical products are produced on western technology plants and knowhow and its the lack of understanding on their part that our manufacturing rules do not translate into good finished products. It used to be insisted that new Western funded factories reverted to them after 10 years, I don't know if that is still insisted on. I have seen Western technology machinery under dusty wraps in their factories taken out of service where they did not buy with it the technology training and the transfer package because they thought they could learn to operate the machinery themselves. At contract levels they drive very hard bargains and insist on compliance to all clauses with no give nor take. At every level, from chattering milling cutters to total machinery transfer they still have a lot to learn. However, the youngsters are extremely keen to learn.

A warrantied item can be returned within the warranty period under the terms and conditions of the warranty within the US, but the manufacturer/distributor specifies the warranties. What i am wondering is-does the UK legally specify warranty terms, conditions and periods for products, or are these set by the manufacturer/distributor? This would be like the car lemon laws in the US. However, if they just require that warranties be met in accordance with the terms specified, then it is same as US on such products. If there was a lemon law for all products, i am sure that China, India and other emerging nations would approach product quality in a different manner. (Voluntary recalls only occur when someone gets caught and it makes the newpaper, which is not really a protective measure to ensure public safety.)

In Germany, where I live, there is a mandatory 2 years warranty no matter who or what the unit is, except for some wear parts (clutches, brake pads and exhaust systems for example), which might only have a 1 year warranty on them......

Here's a reassuring thought... The new San Francisco Bay Bridge (to replace the old one) is prefabbed in China, then shipped here and welded into place! Thank God both American Bridge and California Transit Authority have a small army of employees in China 24/7 to make sure bridge parts are constructed properly and all welds get inspected.

Well the Bay Bridge goes to Oakland. So, unlike a bridge going to Marin, I am sure they have conducted a cost analysis against the potential loss of life using the CalTrans value for a life from the East Bay. Feel lucky they didn't use the CalTrans Value for a Life from say Fresno or Needles, or it might be built out of Balsa Wood.

Right now, commerce in China is like the Gold Rush days in the 1800's in the US. Lots of stuff, and lot of fraud... meaning worthless merchandise.

Until China gets their sh*t straight, it's best not to deal with them. They have no idea what Capitalism really is and don't care. They have to go through that pain before they're trustworthy.

Hi vermin.

I agree with you, I have only once bought something that was made in China, never again! My camera is made in Germany (Leica), my TV is made in Japan (Mitsubishi), my gas hob is made in England (Belling), my computer made in Japan ( Toshiba), my Telephone made in Germany (Telefunken), my Wristwatch made in Switzerland (Omega), my wall clock made in Switzerland, and a host of other things made anywhere but China!!!

By the way, quality does not mean it has to be that expensive?

Spencer.

The Chinese Government has realized the value of working for profit. They have loosened the grip on manufacturing and allowing companies to keep some of their profit.

I attended a seminar a few years ago and they had a speaker from China, who was a self made millionaire, tell us how he did it and the challenges he was faced doing it.

China's manufacturers are well aware of the quality issues of products being exported from their country and are actively hiring quality control consultants to improve the quality of their production, management and processes.

They are the beginnings of a successful Capitalist society with a communist government.

There are Fast Food Franchises opening up in China all the time. Franchises like McDonald's and Pizza Hut.

I think most investigators would not say a "communist" country. I think communism has gone by the wayside. However, it is a totalitarian state.

A lot of good posts here.

I personally feel that if you live in a country where a good guarantee period is the law (we have 2 years in Germany) you can risk an item or two from China. If you don't, then do not take the risk with your money, buy a good name with the longest guarantee possible......

On a separate CR4 blog a few months ago, the question was whether to buy a lift for a big house/Hotel in Saudi I think, from Switzerland or from China. the Chinese version was cheaper, but I recommended the Swiss version as if anything went wrong, the Swiss company would fix it.

If the Chinese lift went wrong and the contract was not absolutely correct for the customer to get proper help, then the Chinese lift might work out far more expensive in the end.

As someone already pointed out in this Blog (correctly!), the Chinese are B*****S when writing contracts!! And damn clever too in this area.......too clever for their own good a lot of the time really.....

As far as I am aware, the Swiss got the contract as the risk was too great with Chinese equipment and contract.

Please do remember before replying to my post that I am not Anti Chinese in any way, this is simply the way the Chinese do business, nothing more nothing less. Too many Westerners take too much for granted when specifying equipment and believe that it is the same the whole world over, IT IS NOT. China has ALWAYS done business in this way, if you are too lazy to meet them half way, and invest as much time and energy (and common sense) in the business as they do, its your problem, not theirs!!!!

"But you do need to get up REALLY early in the morning to beat them at their own game!!!!"

When I bought MNC branded products I had nothing to do with Chinese firms who mfd. them.My transcaction was with famous MNC cos. who have established their brand image throughout the world.It is responsublity of these MNC companies to supply me goods of the same quality as they used to do in past.They should have established rigourous checks on the products mfd. in China.If they were not sure of the quality of the products mfd. in China they should have not tied up with such mfrs. who can not match up the quality.It may be Chinese are cheating these MNCs and sacrifysing on quality at the cost of the image of the MNCs.

Hi Andy.

Yes, what you said was perfectly true, and no it is not that I don't like the Chinese. But I am always quality wise no matter where thing are made! Of course quality has to be paid for in one way or another, but you do not have to go the whole hog and pay over the odds to be able to by quality goods?

I do have a few things that were made in China in my house, but they were made a long time ago, my Chinese stone carvings in Jade for example! But when it comes to electrical and other mechanical goods they have a long way to go yet! It took us in the west a very long time to be able to produce good quality goods at a reasonable price?, as I expect it to in China!

My hunting rifle for example, it is made by BSA, they are a long established company making quality firearms, so it is quite reasonable of me to buy BSA. Then there is my camera, Leica, OK this cost me a lot of money, but what lenses, and it was hand made, so I expect to buy such a camera.

To buy these items I had to save money! This seems to be a big problem today, they want everything NOW!!!

Spencer.

You make a score of good points my friend, I rate your answer as good.

Actually the contracts and warranties for chinese products are probably massaged by non-chinese (American and European) corporate contract lawyers before going out to find every loophole, exception and limitation they think they can get without being so direct as to make the contracts and warranties obvious unenforceable BS to potential buyers. The skills of a contracts lawyer is the ability to keep the concept of a guarantee apparent to the buyer, while hiding that such a guarantee is unenforceable under nearly every circumstance the law will allow.

Try this:

http://www.madebyyankees.com/

Enjoy

UFG

Hi Unclefastguy, I'm glad you posted this site because I had heard of it but never had the correct address.

In another post long ago I also expressed disappointment with the quality of Chinese made goods. A few years back I went to a friend's house. On the way home I noticed a "garage sale" at a nearby house with many tools and shop items laid out neatly on the driveway.

I stopped and as I was looking over the tools I spied an old aluminum cased Black and Decker 3/8" chuck electric drill motor cheaply priced at $2.00. The power cord was frayed and the shine on the old aluminum case had turned a dull grey but the heft of it felt good in my hands and I thought "maybe it will run".

As I picked it up an elderly gentleman came over and asked if I intended to buy it. I said yes and he said "I'll give you four dollars for it". Somewhat astonished I asked why he would pay me double and then pay for the item as well. He said, "You can rebuild these. You know, put in new bearings, brushes and other parts. You can't do that with the modern plastic ones made in China".

I really didn't need another drill motor so I handed it to him and refused his generous offer.

His statement about rebuilding left me thinking are we such a disposable society that replacing rather than rebuilding has become a way of life? It appears in many categories of items we purchase we seem to buy with the idea the item will be thrown away when it fails and another will be purchased to take it's place. There was a time when hardly anything was thrown away because it failed. It was rebuilt by someone and returned to service.

To reinforce that thought of "disposable items" I note the gradual disappearance of the ubiquitous "Fix It" shops which used to populate the lower rent sections of our towns. The vacuum, lawnmower, tool, toaster, etc., repair shops which received your broken mixer and other household appliances and inexpensively restored them to operation are few or missing from the phone directory along with the shoe repair shops, TV/Radio shops, electric motor repair and other services we expected to always be available.

Perhaps this is what the Chinese exporters are responding to. This "disposable item market" or perhaps they are creating this market and we are responding through our purchasing power. Whatever symbiosis exists will not go away and these types of goods will not increase in quality (which would be self defeating).

Perhaps improving the quality of Chinese goods is in our hands. By purchasing only those goods which have a proven track record of reliability and rejecting the cheap alternatives we can send a message to those manufacturers that the market has changed.

Dear Taejonk, Goods I bought were not even used for week. So it not question of getting them repaired after some use, they are all brand new products but made in China and they carry reputed brand names.I would rather blame these MNC who get them mfd. cheap at cost of their reputation. Regarding American products I have been using "Ostriser" massager since 1970 and hair drier since 1991, both are still working except I had to change cable which I did myself. I also had "Osteriser" Mixer since 1970 which was working good except once rewinding of motor. My wife got tired of using same mixi so long so I had to buy another make which started giving problems.This is real value for money.

The companies in China are aware that their products aren't the best. I saw an article just recently that China is hiring outside consultants for establishing quality control programs within their companies to make them more competitive in quality with products produced elsewhere.

Keep in mind that products made in China can be obtained cheaply because they use gulag labor. Which isn't much different then slave labor. Our American companies that outsource for the savings made on cheap labor affects product quality and costs the company in production.

There have been companies that returned to American labor verses labor from Mexico because even though they paid $12 an hour less, their production levels dropped from 60% to 17%.

China is taking steps to correct the issue with producing defective products. They don't want to be considered second rate, any more then Japan did after WWII.

The main staple of their diet is rice. How do you compete with rice eaters? - LOL

That is meant to be humorous, yet it does make a point. How can countries with higher standards of living compete with those who have lower standards? Shouldn't the playing field be leveled and not by bringing down the standards. Tariffs can be used to protect domestic industry from competition or to maintain a balance in competition. When used protectively they prevent competition and allow domestic industry an advantage which results in lack of progress. If used to bring prices of foreign goods to just below the prices of domestic goods, say just 5% below, then goods would sell more by quality than price. A Chinese piece of junk printer would sell for $95 and a good American one would sell for $100. [Or something like that.]

Perhaps there needs to be mandatory warranty laws, the more it costs the longer the warranty or repairability laws so that if something breaks it can be fixed. You buy a bread machine for $100 and lose the little pot metal paddle. The replacement part may be worth a couple of dollars to make, but it costs you $40. It is so expensive that you throw away the old machine and buy another. The best-kept secret is that many of the brands are made in the same Chinese factory to the brand-name company's specifications. They make replacement parts so expensive so they can make another sale of a new machine. The PLASTIC print heads in the HP officejet d135 wear out and cost $75 each, replacing all 4 is HALF the cost of replacing the whole thing. Why weren't they made of METAL so they wouldn't wear out? So HP [or any make can be inserted here] could sell another junk printer.

Many of the MNC's care more about the money than their reputation or quality or even the jobs of the people in their own home country.

you can ban made in china products if you determine to do so but should be ready to accept that nothing comes free or no free lunch as long as greed for higher profit exists you should be ready to suffer the consequence ,china was not crying that America or any other nation should import their product

crm

I don't think anyone in this forum expects something for nothing or "free" as you imply. I believe the general consensus is expecting name brands such as the HP products mentioned to be equal in quality to their predecessors which were made in America.

It seems the general objection to Chinese made products is the poor quality of manufacturing.

Copying a product, producing an inferior version and expecting consumers to respect and praise your efforts is something that may be part of the Chinese culture however it is not part of the western culture.

Western cultures value quality and expect to receive a level of quality equivalent to the price. When I buy something cheap I know it is possibly a "throw away item".

However when I pay a premium for a brand I have trusted in the past such as HP and find later I have been defrauded by inferior Chinese workmanship, that makes me angry at HP and the Chinese who encourage such fraud.

In fact I am so angry at Chinese deception that I will do without rather than buy anything made in China. I have also prevented my company from buying Chinese made products and have encouraged others through my professional associations to avoid Chinese made products.

At some point in time perhaps Chinese made products will achieve some status of quality and Chinese manufacturers may regain a measure of respect in the western world. But I sincerely doubt the level of Chinese quality will ever be equal to that of Rolls Royce, Mercedes Benz, Rolex, Maytag, Milwaukee and other western brands.

You see, these products were developed from a history of quality motivated craftsmen. Generations of fathers and sons continued traditions of quality which made those names synonymous with the word "quality".

Such generations are non existent in China. All such former craftsmen were banished by the Red Guard in their zeal to destroy all things traditional. China lost it's perception of quality and any traditions of quality it may have had.

Perhaps some day, in a far distant future, there will arise in China a tradition of quality, pride in workmanship, and a desire to make the brand "the best money can buy". Perhaps.

But until that day comes where people prefer to buy something made in China for it's sterling reputation rather than a cheap price, I will continue to spend my hard earned money on western made products or do without.

if only every one follows you that would be excellent way to get value for money

crm

Thank you CRM. I hope everyone follows this example so we can take Chinese manufacturing from the hands of the greedy and place it in the hands of those who value a good reputation.

If we all stopped buying Chinese made goods the message would be loud and clear, consumers want quality equivalent to (or more than) the purchase price. I'm sure China has the capability to produce quality goods but that capability is not supported by the will to do so.

Until China is willing to improve it's manufacturing quality, we can regard the statement "made in China" to be a warning.

I dont know if you have read my comment No.34. I wanted to buy only Nokia make cell phone as my past experience with Nokia cell mfd. outside China was very good.Retailer (Nokia's Authorised shop) told me that now in India only Chinese made phone are sold. So how can I stop buying Nokia made in China. Similarly all Toasters Philps,Black Dekker, Murphy etc. make come only from China, so I had to buy Chinese mfd. Blacker & Decker Toaster which either burns the bread or it is not toasted properly. Your appeal not to buy Made in China Products can not be implemented by me. I have to break my head against the "Great Wall Of China".

I am sorry you have limited choices but there are some sites you can explore if you don't mind shopping over the internet.

Uclefastguy has provided us with a very good site (see comment #17) which leads you to American manufacturers, at least those still in business.

I would like to find a similar site for European manufacturers. There are some Indian manufacturers who produce quality goods such as Mahindra, Shamasundra, and Moorthy. Of course there are many Japanese manufacturers of quality goods so our shopping options do extend beyond the "Great Wall of China".

When I have time I will search the internet and send you whatever links I find. Perhaps others will also help you as well. Together we may be able to compile a list of companies which manufacture products with superior value.

Thanks for your reply.I can search the sites myself. Yes there are Indian mfrs. of good quality products but they dont make cell phones. May be latter on. I just wanted to expose these MNC who fool people like us by renting their brand names.

Well I had started this thread after my new Nokia cell's battery was draining on same day, even after full charge that also without any use. Before buying the cell I told retailer that I dont want "Made in China" cell.He told me Nokia sells only made in China cell phones in India. I trusted the retailer and landed in trouble. My purpose of the Posting this thread was how MNC with their sucessfull branded products are spoiling their names by getting the products mfd. cheaper but inferior.I would have paid higher price for better qualty product but I could not do so.I would rather blame more to MNCs who have such short term policies of offering cheaper and inferior products.I hope they will wake up soon.

Very interesting reading,and lot of good thoughts and ideas...now my two cents or yuans...

If there is a customer who needs a product cheaper, there will be a supplier who will try to bring that...

it is very common to see people seeing the price tag first and then the make...and as long as this exists there will be a market for low priced items.

One wonders,.. that the thinktanks of business are not fools to pack their bags and head to China to make their products..and bring them back to their own country.

It makes business sense..!!

Now, there is a another segment which exists, where the country of origin/Brand is used to inflate the rates beyond any accepted levels of greed.

I won't go into the details of these countries/brands, ...but you will find that these are the brands which are facing the chinese challenge....because the customer got to know the rip-off..

Good quality + reasonable rate = Happy customer ( good old days )

Good quality + exorbitant rates= Customer with thinner wallet ( Days of MNC monopoly)

then enter chinese.............

Ordinary/less than ordinary quality + Extraordinarily low rates = Very happy customer (Welcome to Chinese entrepreneurs..)

Adam Smith decides.....

Chaterpilar - happy customer for a very short time, then very angry because he must replace the item. So he saved 100 riyals on the purchase, he must buy another every 6 months, repair parts are not available or too expensive or the item is not built to be repaired. If he had not been a cheap, greedy person and had gone ahead and spent the extra money he might have gotten an item that would last for years.

True, some brands inflate their prices without any better quality. They deserve to lose out because their product also lasts 6 months and costs more. The main problem is that the Chinese eat rice and the workers in the home countries of the MNC brands eat more food. LOL To retain their reputation and business the MNC must maintain quality. I will do my best to avoid buying "Made in China" and in a few other countries too.

Not to mention the customer that finds his kid face-down in a coma because he's eaten a few plastic beads!

I bought a coffee cup in Starbucks, but after purchasing it, I noticed it was made in China. It sits unused, because I don't know whether the glaze used inside the cup is lead-based or not. Really, I should just throw it in the trash. And today, I am very aware of the "made in China" sticker, and that elicits a decision whether I buy it or not.

Hi vermin, dont thow it just drink hot coffee in it, your tummy will become x-ray proof because it will get lined up with lead. Haaaaaaaaaaa.

If it stayed in the stomach, I'd probably do as you say. However...

Hello Vermin,

Now,...that is some stretch....blanket ban of any thing is as bad as accepting everything.

Taganan,...there are some products which people want to dispose in 6 months anyway...and they don't want to spend extra money to buy longlasting...baby clothes and toys are just one example.

All our studied logic, and preferences and "Blanket ban" falls flat on the face considering the trade surplus that China has with most countries..!!

I am not defending bad quality.

Do a google and see for yourself the new Beijing airport...

http://www.gadling.com/2007/09/10/new-beijing-airport-to-be-worlds-largest/

and they are hosting the Olympics..too.

Even when Japan entered in a big way in 60's skeptics were saying the same things...now all those skeptics have been proven wrong and they line up to buy Japanese products.

All i am saying,do not generalise anything and take each item after proper study

...and give the devil/dragon its due...

First, in the early days, Japanese products really were crap! It wasn't until they decided that quality was in the national interest that the level of quality increase - and now they're known as the hallmark of quality. The same is true for Chinese goods. Currently they're the Japan of the 50's and 60's. They haven't reached the point where quality means everything. How could they, they're still trying to figure out capitalism.

As far as hosting the Olympics, I must admit that if I was an Olympic athlete, I'd have second thoughts about competing in the China games. The current story of China is a polluted, totalitarian, gulag, style of Olympic, where how many faces are smiling because they have a gun in their back.

I do not believe that China has progressed far enough to be recognized as a "real" world country, devoid of the force of a gun. It's still a fledging revolutionary state trying to find its real identity in the World community.

There's one very big difference. I don't think that gulag labor is too into the idea of quality. I think survival takes precedence.

For Kind information of all, in Mumbai, India, a Doctor of famous hospital had stored around 1500 phone nos of patients, Drs. and friends in Nokia cell phone made in China. There was problem with cell phone and he gave it for repairs to Nokia Service center. They repaired the phone but in process lost all the phone nos. Inspite of various efforts they could not retrive the data. Doctor sued the Nokia for $600 in the consumer protection court and got the judgement in his favour.

I think something to consider in the concept of fair trade and an open market is that the the nasty little secret of businessmen is that slave labor is acceptable and preferable. A comparison of Red China to Japan is not exactly correct, since the government severely oppresses the labor forces and there is no democracy, this slows and limits the rate of wage increases. If one country allows labor practices that are illegal in the rest of the world, thereby keeping labor costs down, they have an unfair advantage. A US business, by law, could not pay anyone 25 cents a day (let alone the majority of its labor force. Even the Mexican Government can not get away with those kind of wages. Now if the labor pool you draw from is similar, and wages earned are actually based on a cost of living for a similar standard of living, then there can be fair trade. On the positive side, the corruption of the Chinese government is enevitable as the government officials get sucked into the potential wealth. Eventually some senior officials will start to see the end of communism and really get corrupt in attempts to gather as much wealth as possible while they have power. They may resist the transition to capitalism to allow more time to gather wealth on the backs of a slave labor force. Those who resist the fall to capitalism too strongly, will probably end up getting executed by the people. After the fall, China will likely become a bit of a free-for-all, criminal industries will explode (much like the former Soviet Union), Tibet will break away, common people will demand higher wages, and all the first world businesses will pull out because of the risk and instability. Keep in mind that the US Government has effectively stabilized the non-communist countries, like Japan, into a first world economy, but not the communist countries so much.

With regards to the Chinese lack of care in product safety, it is the right of any government to block trade with a foreign power who presents a risk to the health and welfare of its citizens. China lack of consideration for the health of its product consumers, though they may try to feign it for the consumer, should allow the US government the ability to block trade with them. It is not like we trade with China to benefit our economy, our products are too advanced and expensive for the common chinese to use (probably even most of their products also). It is likely though that the chinese economy would collapse with out the US market, because many of their products have no market at home. It is also a obligation of the world not to promote severe large scale crimes against humanity, such as slave labor, but this often get over looked when business interests are involved.

I have to say the Wall Street greed and no concern for Main Street has identified a need for cheep manufacturing and engineering source and China happens to be with with 1.6 Billion tonal citizen of the world. Unable to identify another country with the resource to match China. You have typically 30 day return period to make adjustments in the State of California unless otherwise stated. Warranty none even with new Toyota cars in some cases (cracked glass windsheild)

Don't forget India, they have the resources and man power to match china, and most of their society is substantially below the subsistence level. Only difference is that India is a psuedo democracy and china is not, so China can make radical change on a whim of the politbureau, India has to at least keep up the appearance of a representative system.