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Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/08/2008 11:59 AM

This is an obvious idea so there must be some reason why it won't work. In scramjet propulsion a big problem is that the airstream is moving so fast it is difficult to achieve complete combustion in the short time the air is in the engine, even with the great amount of slowing used in scramjets. So why not just have the air circulate around and around to allow sufficient time for combustion? The space shuttle takes about 500 seconds to reach orbit. Let's say 200 seconds of this is during the altitude and velocity conditions when a scramjet might operate. Prior to that we could use the known airbreathing turbojet and ramjet methods. So if the air during the scramjet phase is made to circulate only for one second before being ejected we still only need to be carrying on board at any one time (1/200th)*(5 times more air mass than pure O2) = 1/40th oxidizer mass needed to be carried during this phase than a rocket. Keep in mind also during the earlier turbojet and ramjet phases we don't need to carry any oxidizer. Since the air is being circulated in a circle, ideally it is not being slowed down so should not create extreme heating. You now have one second to complete combustion compared to the times measured in milliseconds for usual scramjets.

Am I missing something here?

Bob Clark

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#1

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/08/2008 12:34 PM

Any slowing down of the air would cause drag by the engine reducing its efficiency. The drag would not allow the vehicle to reach optimal speed.

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#2

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/08/2008 2:14 PM

The materials and design to transfer the exhaust back to the intake of this system would require design that would not impede flow and back pressure and would have to be resistance to extreme wear due to the forces exposed to this transition system.

These are a few issues that come to mind immediately.

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#3

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/08/2008 7:01 PM

A interesting idea. However I cannot see any way that the airflow could be slowed down and still allow continuous engine operation. Once the route you were sending the air through was saturated the only way to slow the airflow down would be to interrupt the airflow.

Seems to me you would end up with a pulse jet . Just thinking, and I can certainly be missing something.

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#4

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/09/2008 11:30 AM

If you used refractory materials (tungstsen or carbon nanotubes you could let the air heat up to 3000 degrees C. The navy has recemntly discoivered a ethod of making carbon nanotubes in bulk, really big amounts!

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#5

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/09/2008 12:46 PM

I worked on RAMjets many years ago in the RN. From what I remember, even subsonically you need to slow the air down through the engine for efficient burning.

SCRAMJets appear to need at least air at about 5-7 times the speed of sound to work at all!! At what point in a rocket launch are these speeds achieved? The window of usage may be quite small or non existent......

It would appear that you need to work as a RAMjet, once the necessary speed for the RAM to work and then switch over to SCRAM or block the air from outside to allow the RAM to function till out of the atmosphere.....

But you still need a rocket to get the whole thing off the ground (pun intended) in the first place or a normal jet!!!!

These "bits" would be complex and could be jettisoned and parachuted back to earth for re-usage!!

A few amateur thoughts! Have fun....

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#6

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/10/2008 8:14 AM

You could only recirculate the air for so long before the oxygen is depleted. So a 100% recirculation is impossible. There is also going to be a whole lot of reverse thrust involved in turning the air around to recirculate it. How do you seperate out the combustion gasses and only feed the air back? I'm not well versed in jet engines, but this sounds like a difficult proposition at best.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Could we just circulate the air in scramjet propulsion?

03/10/2008 10:26 AM

I am with you on that, I feel that it would be better to not let any more air in than can be burnt or as near as dammit!! Slightly more might be better for combustion reasons and make sure that the wind resistance is as low as possible.....

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