Creative Brainstorming for a Stressed Planet

The Nuclear power plants should be used to power enormous pumping stations which push water to large clay-lined reservoirs atop the Sierra. The water so pushed should include the cooling water, thus eliminating problem # 3 above.

Where do you get this proposed water from? Bearing in mind poit 1 of your post?
Del

Where do you get this proposed water from? Bearing in mind point 1 of your post?
Del

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there's a fine example of a mindset conditioning a communication.

Doesn't everybody know I am, (to be Specific), near the Pacific??? I do!

I jest at my own error. The water would be sucked from the Pacific ocean, or so I propose.

My bad.

So, you'd end up with a salt water river?..not great for the environment....

Del! DUDE! I must insist you read the post.

Particularly the part about the salt water being deposited ??wHeRe??

In for example places like the Great Salt Lake, comma, the vestiges of the GREAT BASIN water which has NO external outlet and whose many playas are characterized by ALREADY being METALLIC SALT SATURATED!!

Look up "Great Basin", or "Salt Lake"..

..

Whoops sorry.. para #4 was waaaaay past my attention span....

_{<slinks off monitor left, dragging tail...>}

_Del

Here Del, I'm afraid the time has come!!!!!

Sorry about that Del.

If I understand correctly, you are proposing to pump sea-level cooling water from a nuclear power plant to holding ponds in the Sierras. I took a look at some rough numbers; check my math:

A 700MW coal-fired power plant needs about 100,000 m³/hr of once-through cooling water (I presume a similar sized nuke plant will require a similar amount of water). Thats 27,778 kg/s of water (I know, salt water is lighter, but rough numbers here) pumped to an approximate elevation of 2000 m requiring 545MW (ignoring any losses). So, 78% of the plant's output goes solely to pumping the water to the holding pond. That seems like a tremendous amount of effort; assuming you could ever write an environmental impact statement that would satisfy California, Nevada, the DOE and the EPA. I know you'll get some of the power back from the hydro plants on the east side, but the losses will be significant.

It is a very intriguing and ambitious plan (partially terra-forming the planet, no less!) but I wonder about it's practical application. Not to mention what unintended consequences to weather patterns could result.

Thanks for the calculations, I thought I was gonna have to do it myself!

Like how many KW per gallon, or something I'd have to dredge up out of an old book.

Yes, the proposal suggests ALL the power of a nuke plant be used to run PUMPS

to pump the water.

Terra forming implies something truly majestic in manipulating the environment: I do not believe that it would take anything "majestic" in size at 2000 meters in height in the way of an impoundment.

The WATER would be discharged in basins already salt saturated.

Don't forget the benefit of attempting to get MORE RAINFALL further east.

(This by the way is the most problematic component, as my knowledge of meteorology is "somewhat suspect". (Scratch, pic, flick...)

The words 'water will be sucked out of the ocean' brought to mind the notion of a syphon. Do I understand that syphon is not requiring outside energy.

Not to mention what unintended consequences to weather patterns could result.

RAIN, I HOPE???

"RAIN, I HOPE???"

That would be an intended consequence - but what about flooding? If you introduce conditions that yield more rainfall (or even worse snowfall) than expected, or in a location not expected, what then? I'm not saying it's not an intriguing idea, only that the mechanisms that drive weather patterns are not as well understood as many of us like to think they are. Weather modelling takes up a large part of the super-computing capacity available and they still can't get a reliable 5-day forecast. I'm not confident in the ability to accurately manipulate it.

hello CSM Engineer,

you comment;

I know, salt water is lighter, but rough numbers here)

I believe salt water is denser oh..... and it is, check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater

without diving into this, my first impressions reflect yours on the practicality

phoenix911

Some of the power plants on the east coast already utilize your suggestion. Peach Bottom Nuclear power plant over night at low usage time pumps water into a large holding reservoir about 100 ft in elevation above the pool level of the lake on which it sits. During peak hours it's drained to run turbines. I am sure something to this effect could be done on Lake Meade to curtail usage of water at the hydro plant.

This would sound fun but following the 'Brainstorming' idea I do have a little idea about this as following: 'Why not apply the Panama Canal or the antique Rome aqueduct systems for moving water all over the place?' I mean, that worked for them at that time and probably will save some energy as well using that same approach, I don't Know what else to tell ya' at this point, but, I do believe your point of view makes a lot of sense too. We getting there some how down the road. Soon or later someone will check up all this good ideas an improve something good out of them. Hang in There....

Nice Clue,

MC

None of the ideas by themselves is worth a hoot in hell,

but synchronistically, there may be some real benefit..

Somebody that knows WTFooey they are talking about in re evap rates, and if a rate of evap sufficient to perchance precipitate precipitation, yuk yuk, as the moist air heads east over the mountains......

would be a help.

out

Hi,

there is only one problem: the water is available at nearly no cost to farmers
and at low cost for others.

If you rise the price to a level that is common in other parts of the world where there is a water shortage you will have a devastating impact on agriculture in California with big economical consequences.

So I estimate that there will be high prices for consumers and a little bit higher prices for farmers. High prices for consumers will be a start signal for the construction of large desalination plants: seawater to drinking water quality is available today at 1$/cubic meter. This is much lower than many people have to pay .

So most people will be more "water-conscious" that is $-conscious.

Farmers will change open irrigation to subsoil irrigation (this will save around 50%!) and maybe the very old canals will be redone that transport the water and loose up to 30% on its way by spillage and evaporation.

If the prices are risen now then this change will come in time. But if the authorities wait there will be a lot of really big problems.

This is a much bigger problem than air pollution and global warming! It will affect the total southwest of the US and not only farming and household but industry too, so the basis of wealth and living may be affected!

RHABE

http://www.fhc.co.uk/dinorwig.htm

Nadolig llawen!

OOOUUh HEElll Yeeaahh.. This is a very impresive Power House Pal'. I did like that idea of pump reversing to back up reserve level that sound smart design definetly. Great deal. Thanks for the nice data here. "Dinorwig's reversible pump/turbines are capable of reaching maximum generation in less than 16 seconds. Using off-peak electricity the six units are reversed as pumps to transport water from the lower reservoir, back to Marchlyn Mawr." Allset then have a nice weekend now...

Smart Move,

MC

The problem in the Colorado River drainage system is better explicated in

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18013

The Great Basin is described here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin

"The Great Basin is a large, arid region of the western United States. Its boundaries depend on how it is defined. Its most common definition is the contiguous watershed, roughly between the Wasatch Mountains, in Utah and the Sierra Nevada, that has no natural outlet to the sea. "

"Additionally the Great Basin contains

two large expansive playas that are the lakebed remnants of prehistoric lakes that existed in the basin during the last ice age but have since largely dried up.

Lake Bonneville extended over most of Western Utah and into Idaho and Nevada, leaving behind the Great Salt Lake, the Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah Lake, and Sevier Lake. Likewise Lake Lahontan extended across much of northwestern Nevada and neighboring states, leaving behind such remnants as the Black Rock Desert, Carson Sink, Humboldt Sink, Walker Lake, Pyramid Lake, Winnemucca Lake, and Honey Lake, each of which now forms a separate watershed within the basin."

"The Basin has remained among the most sparsely-inhabited areas of the United States. The two largest cities in the basin are Salt Lake City, Utah on its eastern edge and Reno, Nevada on its western edge"

For some pictures which show the HUGE SALT LADEN dry playas which would receive the ocean water, see

http://djensenphotography.com/pages/great_basin.htm

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I WOULD hate to see "Black Rock Desert" be filled, as I would greatly miss

BURNING MAN..

Start with Death Valley, since it is already below sea level, all you need is a big pipeline and no pumps. It might even produce electrical power as the seawater flows into the desert. Environmentalists will scream in fury at this idea and your idea, as it will change their precious environment. They don't care if the change is beneficial, just that it is a change. Salt Lake City might need dikes to protect it though, another expense and a lot of people objecting.

I think it is worth a try though.

Hi,

that would be much better in Israel refilling the dead sea from the red sea.

Much debate about this but no real (economic) solution.

Energy is still too cheap.

RHABE

Maybe they could pipe water to theatres ?

Why not tow that huge iceburg that just broke off?

Use the Sultan Sea, from the Sea of Cortez a 230 foot drop and very low elevation to trench through to connect the two. Run the sea water out a turbine to solar evaporation green houses, producing fresh water and sea salt.

Solar Green house is a small canal with an "A" frame glass roof that condensates into side channels for fresh water collection. The leftover brine goes into ponds for final evaporation into sea salt. Aqua-farm and use the waste water to grow crops. Use some of the crops to feed the Aqua-farming.

Or some power, fresh water, and food. From free gravity and sunshine. The major cost is the Pipe line to connect the two.

One of my smaller ideas

Brad

In my opinion, many of the "siting" issues currently having sway over contentious NIMBY arguments and rancorous "save the owl" dialogues will be swept away by emergency declarations, when the seriousness of our rapidly degrading situation becomes apparent.

The Colorado River will soon be the Colorado Trickle, and LA's apportionment will not keep their swimming pools filled.

In my opinion, (biased to be sure) this suggestion of making hundreds or thousands of square miles of evaporation ponds "upwind" from the Rocky Mountains would effectively harness the energy of the sun and more than make up for the energy used to pump the water from the ocean.