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Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/26/2008 7:56 AM

I have devised a hydrogen generator which is producing a startlingly large volume of hydrogen, from a 12 volt power source.I need to be able to quantify the output, and measure the actual amount of electricity consumed.I want to measure the volume/flow rate of hydrogen.The total volume transferred.Be able to adjust for volume/pressure.To be used as a testing device. Clean dry environment. Will not be left in place.Also: an Ampmeter that will register the amps being used, and allow the amperage to be varied.

Power source will be 12 volts.

thanks, peter

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Measuring hydrogen volume

03/26/2008 8:32 AM

Thanks!

What I need to know is where I can buy instruments that will do the measurements I need.

Frankly I don't give a damn about the science. It is the tools that I need!

peter

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Measuring hydrogen volume

03/26/2008 8:35 AM

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/

http://www.maplin.co.uk/

So, what's the problem, apart from not giving a damn?

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#15
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Re: Measuring hydrogen volume

03/27/2008 8:51 AM

Dear Guest, good answer.

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#2

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/26/2008 8:30 AM

Please understand that I am not being snotty. But you are generating large amounts of hydrogen and don't know how to measure DC power. I offer some advice for what it's worth.

Work in a well-ventilated space.

Wear only cotton clothing, preferrably that has been treated with flame retardant. See foundry clothing.

OR, simply buy a tank of hydrogen if you need hydrogen for testing. That's safe and fairly inexpensive.

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#5
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/26/2008 11:05 PM

Good point TVP45, also, Sparky the electrode Elf could bite you if you are not careful.

Not giving a damn about science and doing science do not mix well.

Not with safety

Not with purpose

Or understanding either.

What would your measurements have as a purpose if they do not relate to knowledge?

Take good care, hydrogen is quite flammable and explosive...

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#6

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 12:30 AM

The advice about safety is important.

If I remember my secondary school chemistry, 1 mole (18g) of water will break into 1 mole of H2 and 1/2 mole of O2, with a volume of 33.6 litre at room temp & pressure.

The electrolysis takes about 285kJ of energy. ie 12V x 6.6A x 3600sec.

It sounds like you're wanting to do this experiment properly, so a few weeks spent finding out the chemistry and physics involved could be very rewarding. ffeJ

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#11
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 6:02 AM

1 mole (18g) of water

Are you sure? Or are you just misguiding the "Flippant one" on purpose?

PS. Yes Stan, he's got it, it seems. Ky.

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#7

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 12:49 AM

"I have devised a hydrogen generator which is producing a startlingly large volume of hydrogen, from a 12 volt power source."

This is the solution to the worlds need for an easily obtained supply of Hydrogen?

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#12
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 7:00 AM

It depends upon the original power source. If the 12V generator were the size of the Sahara Desert and located in it, then maybe, just maybe.........

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#8

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 1:09 AM

And just as another safety aside...hydrogen burns with an invisible flame, so you might not notice it. But is is 15 times lighter than air so it does tend to disipate fast.

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#9

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 1:48 AM

Contact Fluke corporation in Everette WA. USA. They will sell you what you need.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 3:53 AM

Thank you mikethe . . . !

I needed to be able to set up a test sequence with commercially available equipment so that I can state that: with this setup, using this equipment I obtained these results.

Thanks to all those concerned for my safety! The 'not interested in the science' was a bit flippant.

peter

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#13
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 7:01 AM

<.....The 'not interested in the science' was a bit flippant......>

Noted.

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#14

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 7:43 AM

I worked on a project like this for the military. The hydrogen generator was a battery inside a sealed battery box in a vehicle. As the battery was being charged, it generated hydrogen and oxygen which became trapped inside the sealed box. A spark ignited the mixture and killed a mechanic/soldier. The engineering problem was solved by addition of a vent to the battery box, but that didn't help the soldier.

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#16

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 10:34 AM

hey bro if you are using 12 volts with a square wave or whatever you might as well forget it you will never come close to producing enough hydrogen to make up for the electricity you use. an easy way to measure volume is to take a known volume container full of water and insert it in a container full of water upside down and time how long it takes to fill. as for measuring the amount of electricity used an amp meter and a volt meter will give you a good guess at that . watts are amps x volts. so if you use 12 volts at 6amps it is 72 watts. and you better be producing a lot of hho or browns gas to make up for that i'm not saying it's impossible, i mean even the most educated scientists don't understand exactly how water works.

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 8:27 PM

Thanks for the volume suggestion.

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#23
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 9:20 PM

Yes we do...pour water into glass, add ice, add scotch...what was the question?

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#17

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 10:36 AM

"...a startlingly large volume of hydrogen..."

Can you quantify 'startlingly large' a wee bit more closely? What period of time is needed for this generation? If it is overnight, or over a week, that's one thing, but if near instantaneous, quite another.

And YES, DO pay attention to all of the recommendations regarding safety! The answer will do your heirs much less good than you, or than it would for you...

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#22
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 8:40 PM

Startling! which is why I suddenly need to be able to measure accurately, and describe that: with this setup, using this and this to quantify; these are the results I got.

near instantaneous??

First test with this 'cell' at approxominately 8 seconds 'millions' of tiny bubbles. In less than 10 seconds include a 'substanial' percentage of bubbles of 5 to 6 mil diameter.

Minor variation. Switch on; 'Kill it!' The bubbles had overflowed and were running down the sides of the tube.

My test setup is 'safe' for testing within the limits of what I expect. this forced a rethink!

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#24
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/31/2008 12:33 PM

Close enough to instantaneous to be startling in my book, too. Thanks for the clarification!

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#18

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 10:47 AM

1. You didn't devise it, you refined it.

2. There are only so many atoms of H2 available per unit of water, so save yourself some trouble and simply accurately weight the water before and after the electrolysis.

3. You are probably producing Brown's gas, not hydrogen

4. You just made a Joe Cell. There are others also experimenting with it.

5. If you haven't measured it, how can you be 'startled' by the amount?

And to the skeptics who are absolutely necessary to avoid nonsense:

The Joe cell IS the answer to a hydrogen based economy, since there is NO infrastructure change necessary. Same cars, same gas stations, same grid, etc.

I am designing one now and will report my findings for you guys to duplicate, between us engineers. The lay public can bump into some interesting effects, but the heavy lifting should be left to those with the requisite training, temperament and community.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 11:31 AM

3. You are probably producing Brown's gas, not hydrogen.

That would explain the startlingly large volume of hydrogen.

I MET DR BROWN WHEN HE WAS STILL ALIVE...... WORKED WITH HIS EQUIPMENT....

THE VOLUMETRIC CHANGE FROM LIQUID (WATER about 8.5 pH) TO BROWN'S GAS AT ATMOSPHERIC WAS STARTLING!

The functionality of his concept....bah humbug........

MR GUY

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/27/2008 8:19 PM

hioptemp

!. point taken. modified might be even more correct.

3. On what basis? I am aware of the variation.

4. I am aware of that.

5. Previous units & the various on-line videos that I have seen.

RE skeptics: To my certain knowledge there have been 3 cars running on Hydrogen or Browns gas --- probably 2 hydrogen, --- in a small New South Wales, Australian town for at least tha last 15 years. Verified by a sceptical mechanic who teaches at motor mechanics at a technical highschool.

2. There are only so many atoms of H2 available per unit of water, so save yourself some trouble and simply accurately weight the water before and after the electrolysis.

Would you mind expanding on this?

thanks peter

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#26
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/01/2008 12:19 PM

Basis: the low voltage and neutral pH

4. Then don't say hydrogen, say Brown's Gas

5. Please post total volume (bubble into an inverted water container, measure volume of gas, measure level of bath inverted container sits in for pressure calculation) You then a have a pressure and volume. Please cite the videos; I find them notoriously absent measurements.

Certain knowledge would be DIRECT OBSERVATION. Not youtube.

2. The weight of the gas liberated = weight reduction of water, since mass is conserved. If this is not the case, you need to head off to Stockholm and collect your prize money. So, weigh your water, do your electrolysis, then weigh the water after wards, control for evaporation. The mass lost in your water must equal the mass gained in your gas. Next you have to know the composition to determine molarity, in the end it has to be H2O. Look up physical properties of Brown's Gas for a shortcut.

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#27
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/01/2008 8:41 PM

Thanks for bothering to take the time!

See earlier post and allow me some time.

'Certain knowledge' referred to a report and endless discussions with a technical college teacher of mechanics, who did the mechanical work on these vehicles in his private workshop. A person whom I have known for many years.

peter

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#28
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/02/2008 1:39 AM

Just because you say it's Brown's Gas doesn't mean my underwear is going to come out any cleaner in the wash! (especially after chili night)

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#30
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/11/2008 5:17 PM

Dear hioptemp.

On the CR4 forums I'm known as Toomuchfun. My name is Joe.

I am not the creator of the Joe Cell, don't even know the gentleman.

I am not an Engineer and don't compare myself with persons with the title.

However I am working to safely develop a hydroxy production system that will not only enhance the use of gasoline and diesel fuels, but to create a multiple cavity cell that can produce enough HHO to fuel an engine with out the need for other fuels. I have learned that 16 gage steel will safely contain hho if it explodes. Unfortunately, the information provided didn't mention if the hho was under pressure, didn't include info regarding just what the % of the fuel gas was hydrogen vs oxygen. or any other information that could reflect on the issue.

I am curious about the possibility of being able to some how reduce the amount of oxygen that may be retained and transmitted thru the single duct system. I wonder if there is something like an attractor or scrubber that could be included in the design that would accomplish this safely. I learned that it only requires the presence of 1% oxygen in the presence of 99% hydrogen to support combustion. If this is incorrect please correct me.

I have many different engines and 2 generators to work with. I am confident that one day I'll get a generator to start and run on the hydroxy fuel gas, support it's own energy needed to do so and still produce electricity for other uses. I believe that the ultimate answer will lie in the choice of electrolite used and possibility to concentrate the hho production while at the same time venting away some of the 02.

If you would like to voice your opinion regarding my ideas or even discuss anything regarding the issue, you can email me at Tamerind2@earthlink.net it also sometimes works if you use .com.

Joe/Toomuchfun

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#31
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/11/2008 5:45 PM

"...16 gage steel will safely contain hho if it explodes..."

I wouldn't hang my hat on that one were I you - it all depends on how much hydrogen you're talking about. If you had a Hindenburg-full, I doubt 16-ga would be much better than the aluminum and canvas that it used. Maybe if the container was the size of Canton, Ohio, but that wouldn't be very practical.

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#32
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/11/2008 6:27 PM

Toomuchfun responding to enviroman.

I whole heartedly agree with you regarding the 16 gage steel.

I quoted the information that was provided in the Dr. William A. Rhodes Papers. I'm confident that likely by now you have at least heard of the good Dr. Rhodes. If not, " and for the benefit of others following the forum" Dr. Rhodes applied for and received a patent for discovering/createing what is described as Single Duct Oxy-hydrogen gas. Other folks, and I believe that Denny Kline, is one of them also applied for at least comparable patents. I am not sure as to weather Stan Myers made the same claims. Getting back to the 16 gage steel. Dr. Rodes wrote that he was concerned about the explosive properties of the oxy-hydrogen gas. He then conducted a test, and described the container as being made of 16 gage steel and having flat ends. I would presume that he used 16 gage steel pipe. He states that when the gas exploded the only sound heard was a click. No damage nor any bulging was observed with the container.

I have seen the results of these explosions in plastic containers with the wall thickness of 3/4". I am building a 4 cell container out of 1/16th " thick aluminum alloy reinforced on all corners with 1/16th" thick aluminum alloy corners. This container will have a 1/4" thk plexiglass liquid proof liner. The top will be restrained with bolts and springs designed to permit explosive gases to be vented with out destroying the container. I have a little experience in dealing with high explosives and a tremendous respect for what can happen to those who don't.

Toomuchfun

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#34
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Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/14/2008 1:40 PM

Yup - don't want you to go...

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#25

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

03/31/2008 11:03 PM

Thanks for the practical suggestions -- especially miketheboilerguy & flobro.

Power source 12 volt, 60 amp hour battery.

Cell contained in a 50mm (2") tube, 23 centimetres (9") high.

The cell itself is 20 cemtimetres (8") high.

At the moment I have too many undefined parameters. It is drawing too much current.

(to be useful/practical)

This cell was 'thrown together' to assess some new info that I had come across. I will do a rebuild and some serious testing.

I will post the results.

peter

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#33
In reply to #25

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/12/2008 9:50 AM

your welcome. i expect a cut if you get rich lol i have a bunch of stuff i can sell you if you need parts i'm done working on it for a while

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#29

Re: Measuring Hydrogen Volume

04/03/2008 9:17 AM

I'll give a good approximation, for every every kilowatt hour of electricty you put in, you'll get about .4 kilowatt hours of hydrogen.

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