Leaking Pipes

What is the pH? Of what quality is the water - is it for drinking, for example? What other species are dissolved in it? What is the pressure rating of the pipes and what is the maximum operating pressure and temperature?

Our ph is 7.58. Operating pressure is 60psi. Temperature is around 60*F. This is potable water coming in from the city. It may contain parts of iron, sulfur, and lime.

Thanks

The corners get beat up pretty bad but it also happens in the middle of long stretches of pipe. How did you address the problem?

Thanks

That would make sense long stretches of tubing vibrate at high freq. causing pressure drops. They added a Deaeration unit to our system. It looks like a small pressure tank in line after the pump. A good industrial plumbing contractor should have more answers on the problem.

I hope this helps I am no plumbing expert. Please let me know what you find out.

Thanks for the help.

Hi, repair71!

And a big fat welcome to CR4. Great to have you aboard.

Mark

Thanks Honored to be here. Don't know if I will be much help to anyone, feeling kinda selfish because I will learn much more than I will help.

How many years have the coppers pipes been in use? I have been correcting these pinhole leaks in old (40+ years) copper lines for a few years. The water is not softened, but is the hard type right out of the city supply lines. Apparently, internal corrosion is the culprit, but I don't know if it is the result of grounding or lack thereof. Might be just the age of the pipes, so it looks like a gold mine is coming for the plumbers, and water cleanup folks when millions of copper pipes pop.

Here is a site with a dissertation on the pinhole problem... http://www.toolbase.org/Building-Systems/Plumbing/copper-pinhole-leaks

This is a newer facilility, about 7 years old.

Good day.

I have worked some pin hole problems in copper pipes. Usually caused by the water eroding the pipes by lack of reaming the pipe at the joints causing turbulent flow or localized errosion. It's also caused by the flow of the water simply eroding the pipe. I have recently installed a system designed to prevent any future leaks, unfortunately leaving you to deal with the ones you have.

This is the Parafos system, I haven't been able to find a website but it is the same system we used. The buildings we put it in have been leak free a year after we installed it.

http://www.meatandpoultryonline.com/Content/ProductShowcase/product.asp?DocID=260cc0e8-0375-11d5-a770-00d0b7694f32

You maybe smarter then your "water treatment" expert. Your being generous with the "expert term" because most of them are expert blamers. Check the velocity of your water, replacement pumps are sometimes oversized causing premature failure in the joints. Certainly you can have a grounding issue, do some cathodic research. Are you talking about a domestic hot water system or a heating system? Please provide more info on the system. Do you have Di-electric unions anywhere?

If you are getting pin holes in your copper tubing.........dare I say it...........it is unlikely that it is caused by stray electric current or poor grounding.

It is more likely to be caused by pitting which may be caused by one or more of several reasons, some of which are:-

1. Contaminated water....varios salts, including water softeners.

2. Differential aeration.

3. Poor wokmanship............e.g. excessive use of fluxes.

4. Excessive water velocities, also low water velocities can cause major pitting in some piping materials.

Electrolysis may be a factor, but it would likely occur where the copper meets another metal or ground, not in the middle of a run. Although turbulence may be the cause, those usually occur within 5-10 pipe diameters of a flow disturbance. After that, laminar flow develops and the turbulence disappears. Again, that would not account for leaks in the middle of a continuous run. Don't completely discount your expert's opinion. Pitting corrosion is a well-known cause of major headaches for homeowners and facility managers.

Take a look at this tech note. More information is available from the Copper Data Center.

Electrolysis may be a factor,

Electrolysis, when talking of corrosion. Please, please do not use that word, there is no such animal..................it is either galvanic action, or stray electric current.

You will never find the word in reputable literature on corrosion, if it is there, it is only to correct the meaning of the term............ugh...........electrolysis.

Galvanic action or stray electric current is not likely to cause pinholes in the pipework.

Mobi,

I agree that electrolysis is not a mechanism of corrosion. If you review my earlier post you will see that I never stated or implied such a thing. I reviewed a variety of potential causes of the pinholes. Corrosion is one possibility, but by no means is it the only one. I also discussed turbulence, which results in erosion, not corrosion. Another possible cause is electrolysis, defined as:

The effect of electrolysis can be similar to galvanic action. The mechanism of electrolysis differs in that the ion migration is driven by an external electric field.

If, in fact, there is a grounding problem in the facility which results in a "stray electric current" through the pipe and water, the effect on the pipe would indeed be electrolysis, not corrosion.

Further, the conclusion of my earlier post clearly states that I do not think that electrolysis was the likely cause, but a rather commonly encountered form of pitting corrosion, as described on the linked sites. We would be derelict in our professional responsibilities, however, not to consider all reasonable possibilities.

Put simply Electrolysis is the breaking down of the electrolyte, which maybe accompanied by gassing. (As in the operation of a battery) IT IS NOT A FORM OF CORROSION it is either.

Galvanic action and stray electric current are WRONGLY called electrolysis. Galvanic action can also be called electrolytic corrosion.

As I pointed out before read a REPUTABLE book on corrosion, written by metallurgists, whose expertise is corrosion.

One can also remove metals from ore either chemically or electrolytically.

Excellent post, JDknut. What can be done to prevent MIC?

Hi, LockedUp!

Several answers come to mind. I suspect, however, that the small holes are not an escape attempt, since (a) they are small, and (b) the water pipes are also (probably) small.

However, just in case I'd be looking for another inmate, probably in shop, working on a shrinking ray and a mini submarine.

It stands to reason, although I'd never heard of this holing phenomenon before, that removing trace minerals from the water supply side that runs through copper piping, and as a result possibly combining more unadulterated copper in the --whatever small-- amount of scale it produces after softening, will leave the water actively ionic enough to leach material from the piping in some places and deposit it in others.

So, I'm just theorizing...Laminar flows might subject straight pipe length sections to corrosion in this way due to the lessened activity at the flow perimeter; and soldered pipe joints might be more likely to undergo buildup due to edge-induced turbidity-encouraged redistribution of the charges.

Next, it might be important to determine which cell block the plumber is from...

On the discharge side, holing is eventually almost always present in copper piping due to either low or high PH waste running through the pipe, especially where there is partial blockage causing eddying or pools of backup inside the pipe where ionization activity can run rampant.

In either case, I find softened water to be a royal pain in the butt, since:

drinking it robs your body of trace mineral intake from its natural source (drinking water);

and washing with it leaves a soapy feel one continues to wash off one's body parts forever with soft water

or washing the soapiness -completely- off anything else with softened water is a difficult chore.

Losing the water softening system could be better all around. Just a personal bias. I know some people love 'em.

Four years ago, I asked my then 92 and 96 year-old parents what they attributed their longevity to. Both immediately and candidly responded that they had decided their long lives could be attributed to drinking from the normal tap water supply. (But at least part of it had to be the two dozen -it seemed- vitamins and minerals they were each swallowing down with that water daily, plus various juices, milk, diet supplement drinks, and tea they were also seen drinking every day.)

Mark

Hi LockedUP!

By gosh, I just noticed that you're a new member in here!

I think I lost sight of that fact due to the great keffufle your first post engendered in the CR4 following.

Well, done!

And it's just a pleasure to have you join us.

Keep up the stimulating input, and never forget "Quando omni flunkus moritatus".

Mark

Pleasure to be here. I stumbled on the site doing research for an engineering class and found it to be very helpful at my job. I appreciate all the great ideas I have received.

yes, water can be too "soft" most dionizer systems require that the piping from the unit to the holding tank be made of 304 SS, iron piping will dissolve in the water.

I worked in a facility that used D/I water in various processes and tapped into it to feed industrial humidifiers serving environmental chambers. None of the tubing used to feed the D/I (de-ionized) water was copper. It was all plastic tubing, presumably because the D/I water attacks any metal in encounters as it is naturally metal free and seeks to entrain metallic elements within itself. If you are running 0ppm hardness water through the copper, I would suggest going to some form of plastic piping, consult with a plumber or pipefitter!

Welcome Richard....It's about time you chimed in.