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Anonymous Poster

Muntain Pine Beetle

04/25/2008 11:32 PM

Fellow engineers, as you know this pest is savaging the forests of British Columbia with great impact in a vicious cycle of global warming.

The challenge is to stop this devastation without impinging on the environment.

I remember reading that Selenium (a component of garlic) was used to prevent deer from eating saplings as the substance was absorbed by their roots.

I wonder if the beetles would be also allergic to garlic.

Any idea?

Cheers

Vince

"Nos autem, cui mundus est patria velut piscibus equor," - Dante

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#1

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/26/2008 9:11 AM

An astonishing piece of writing!!! In the spirit of it I asked the British Columbia Pine Trees themselves. The answer was: we do not give a damn about great impact, nor about vicious cycles and could not care about global warming ( or otherwise). They also told me, that those bugs are bugging them in gentle cool rain just as much. They got quite agitated by your without impinging on the environment remark. They: what does that blowhard thinks them eating us to death does to his precious environment?!?

And I believe, the beetle are quite allergic to garlic, particularly in your skillet preparing them for breakfast. Good protein - less beetle.

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#2

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/26/2008 12:12 PM

Raise woodpeckers and set them free in the infested area.

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#3

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/26/2008 12:20 PM

A good forest fire would stop those nasty beetles... With the side benefit of cooking them well done for your consumption. Try adding a bit of garlic and perhaps some mushrooms and a nice red wine...

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/26/2008 3:07 PM

Use wine to debug?

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#32
In reply to #3

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:08 AM

Not red wine with beetles and grubs, a nice dry white wine is prescribed!

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#5

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 12:07 AM

BEETLES! We don't need any stinking beetles!

The beetles are only seen as detrimental during long periods of insufficient rain fall, go figure; when the tree is stressed only do the beetles seem to do harm.

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#6

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 12:14 AM

Dear Guest,

You mean Mountain pine beetle (MPB), Dendroctonus ponderosae?

Actually, The lack of forest fires andthe virtual monoculture of trees by the commercial companies to assure profitable single species harvests are at least as responsible as the lack of cold winters for past couple of years. Never had a couple warm winters in a row in the past?

The idea that deer (vertebrate mammal) behavioral responses are a reasonable proxy for insect (beetle coleoptera invertebrate) allergy (why not toxicity?) humbles me, as I seem to lack the ability to see any parallels / connections of significance.

How allergy and not toxicity would stop the infestation I can only guess, but speculate that allergy = sneeze= beetles expell themselves out of bark = then eaten when exposed. Am I close?

Number of legs, presence of wings, internal vs extenal skeletons, mode of breathing, ingestion, ability to get selenium into bark (where beetles are) vs into new living tissues, (what deer eat)- despite that all of these significant differences in anatomy, physiology, uptake, and metabolism exist, still you propose a connection- this truly humbles me.

by the way, you omitted the best part of the Dante quote:

'...rationi magis quam sensui spatulas nostri iudici podiamus'

(we rest the shoulder of our judgement on reason rather than feeling)

The part that you used, "we live in the world like the fish in the sea" actually provides a syllogism for your problem-

And beetles live in pines... like we do in suburbs.

milo Thats a pretty obscure text!

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 11:25 AM

Dear Milo,

The Mountain Pine Beetle of course.

There was a recent CBC news reporting that the MPB devastation of BC forests has affected an area as large as Nova Scotia and is spreading east to Alberta.

It will be impossible to harvest all the dead trees, this means that they will rot and emit vast amounts of CO2 in the process. The cycle will increase global warming and result in warmer winters and greater infestation of MPB in the future. So rather than absorbing CO2 all those trees will be generate more GHG.

" Nos autem..." " But we, to whom the world is our homeland, as to the fish the sea,"

should be concerned in finding a solution even if it's garlic bruschetta!

Thanks for your reply.


Vince

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 1:27 PM

Dear vince

Please go back to your original style, it is that much more delightful, and does not take away anything in your message.

Outside that, it is arrant nonsense (plain english = no basis for it), that dead trees cannot be harvested. What do you think, you home has live timber in it??? Yes I know, such damaged timber needs some treatment against opportunistic bugs, but otherwise they are structurally sound, and usually sold fairly inexpensively. So, people who otherwise cannot afford, can build homes, businesses, etc., and in addition keeping these timber from rot and CO2.

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#22
In reply to #13

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 6:10 PM

Thanks for the literary compliment. However, the issue is not that one cannot harvest the dead trees, but, given the devastation, how many can be harvested successfully.

Vince

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:39 AM

Forest product harvesting businesses are very productive no matter the tree is live or dead it moves the same after felling.

What is your point again...

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#30
In reply to #6

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 9:52 AM

Milo,

WOW - great writing. You humble us mere mortals. One thing that is going on in BC that I applaud is that the Govt there has allowed companies to use the wood waste and sell it as wood pellets to Europe. There are now more huge wood pellet plants in that area then anywhere else. I believe that they are harvesting well over a Million tons of renewable energy instead of letting them rot and start forest fires like the great state of MN did when they had their blow-down of millions of trees.

I took a entomology class in college and what always surprised me was that most predators are very specific to their hosts so i would throw out the idea of woodpeckers. The most obvious method is to use a juvenile hormone but that would take years to develop and test and then who would pay for spraying such a huge area? The US did such for smaller areas such as South Dakota to control grasshoppers. One classmate told me it was weird the rest of the summer - no birds to be found for several months until some migrated in.

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#51
In reply to #30

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:27 PM

Thank you.

With 38 unigue agrowaste biomass recipes for pellets, I am going to connect you with Another poster on another thread who is looking for assistance on biomass and carbon offsets.

He has determined that there is a great opportunity in harvesting Balance of Plant (to co-opt a fuel cell industry technical term) of banana trees after the harvest of the fruits. Apparently banana trees are annuals.

His original work has been speculating on methane via anaerobic digestion, Doesn't yet have celulose/ water content/ash content info to help determine highest and best process. I'll connect you via email. its noble work, but a bit of PC language as baggage.

I was glad to see your avatar was pellets. I won't tell you what I thought they were!

milo

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#7

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 4:06 AM

Save the beetles, ban garlic, ban woodpeckers. Killing beetles damages the environment. Selenium, by the way is an element also found in photo cells, therefore we could grow huge garlic photocells and run enormous solar powered refrigerators to counteract global warming, all based in France because the french and garlic are symbiotic. Mountain Pine Beetle-France, 4 degrees of seperation. Who needs Jennifer Aniston, if she is the one I am thinking of.

And this nonsense is right ON topic.

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#8

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 7:40 AM

Beatles - Send them back to England!

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#10

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 12:58 PM

This photograph shows large areas of pine forest in BC that have been affected by pine beetle..............sorry not affected...........killed.

According to one report, the MPB was just another pest...............but scientists agree that increasing temperatures, since 1993 have caused this "epidemic outbreak" they say the temperature has to about 00F for about 5 days to kill the pest, it appears that some refuse to admit this................oh! it must be "another" ice age!!!!

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 1:14 PM

Sorry I forgot this photo of Dendroctonus ponderosae alias MPB.

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#20
In reply to #10

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 5:43 PM

Much of the tree kill zone globally is in the 4500' -6500' above sea level zone where harmful smog components hang in the atmosphere but this couldn't possibly be a factor?

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#34
In reply to #20

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:25 AM

Good question - but doubtful. The altitude and climate is advantagous to pine trees. The needles staying green allowing for growth in the cold climate. The needles also hold moisture lose to a minumum which allows for growth in the dry cold climate of BC. What I am trying to say is that pine trees are tough and do well in dry areas. Because of their needles they would not be as suceptable to smog as a broad leaf tree.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 12:34 PM

The elevation/smog component issue was acknowledged by the Sierra Club as a contributing factor in tree kill in the Sierra Nevada ranges.

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#45
In reply to #36

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:48 PM

I stand corrected then. I didn't think we had smog that thick at this day and age. My thought is that with the air flow patterns that BC would get, the majority of its weather patterns would be from the NW where air quality would be better. I only took one meterology class so I'm no expert. I do know that plants that are stressed by one force are weakened and more susceptible for the 2nd agent.

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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:56 PM

Russ you are correct. I have visited the Sierra Nevada ranges and currently live in BC. Recently moved from lat 49 to lat 53.5 for health reasons and I can assure you the air quality here is very good except for within a couple of miles of pulp mills. While the air pollution in Sierra Nevada may be the primary cause down ther it isn't up here.

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 3:38 PM

Pardon elnav,

Pulp mills are listed as major NO2 producers.

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 3:36 PM

Understandably, not long ago we would expect a smog concentration down wind of a heavy producer. But today the pollution is layered and fairly consistent everywhere. It is that NO2 remains suspended at about 4500-6500' elevation, you can trace NO2 in the atmosphere and it's latitudinal drift from origin and circumnavigate back to it again. Of course NO2 is present at sea level also, it's roll in tree kill is notable at any elevation.

However I think I think the beetles have historically only been extensively active when trees are under stress from lack of water or other natural conditions etc.. Then again NO2 could contribute to or provide a stressful environment for trees allowing the beetle to cause devastation.

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#38
In reply to #20

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 1:58 PM

Not likely! There is as much beetle kill happening at elevations below 4500 feet above sea level. I'm not sure where you found that particular statistic at. Much of the interior plain in BC lies below 4500 feet.

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:17 PM

That falls in a "much" range too...(:

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#53
In reply to #10

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 11:46 PM

Mobi, I hope you are right. This past winter has been colder and much snowier than any in the past twenty years. At least according to locals who track these things. Hopefully this would precipitate more deaths in the beetle population. Your photo shows an area primarily covered by pine trees, but locally we do have a greater diversity. I cound at least ten different species of trees on a drive into town four of them decidious. Unfortunately you need more than a half mile gap between pine trees to even slow down the spread of pine beetles.

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#60
In reply to #53

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 4:01 AM

Unfortunately you need more than a half mile gap between pine trees to even slow down the spread of pine beetles.

I don't know that it would apply to your situation but here goes. Many folks have used the flower; Marigolds for repelling pests, seems insects especially do not tolerate this plant at all and will not cross through or in any proximity of the plant, its pollen or even dried flowers. I have planted marigolds in about a five foot wide patch with wonderful results when needing to fend against pests.

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#11

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 1:12 PM

Hello bettle bugged friend:

I am surprised you are not informed about organic pest controls that are efficient and do not present any hazard to nature.

Since you have a large area pandemic problem, better use a specific fungii treatment like metarhizium anisoplaie; if you can acced to some kind of governmental aid you could also try Neem Oil (from India) which you can easily buy in U.S.A. There are also some other solutions like natural lab developed specific predators like wasps which control these insects. Be careful with nature alimentary chain.

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 1:50 PM

Federal scientists at the Pacific Forestry Centre in Victoria (that is Canada not Australia) have tried numerous measures to stop the spread of the MPB...........all to no avail.

Perhaps you should contact them and let them know where they have erred!!!!!!!

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 2:39 PM

Not to mention that the pine beetle has damaged forests from Texas to California as well. I personally lost two nice pine trees in my yard due to the critters. BC is not the only area to have this problem.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 2:51 PM

Good Mobi:

What's bugging you Sir.?

This is not a matter of competition or "unique truth".!!! I believe it's a matter of solutions and/or control of epidemic which are evolving as a result of, by all of us well knowned, misshaps in many applauded modern procedures. Try offering a constructive answer to someoneelse's justified worries.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 2:55 PM

Who exactly are you speaking to? And what pray tell got you bugged?

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 5:37 PM

Come on guys...stop bickering. Let's have a brainstorming camp where criticism without constructive suggestions is the only taboo.

Making criticism is ten times easier than coming up with a constructive alternative.

Yes, Milo you got my drift.

Vince

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#24
In reply to #19

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 7:01 PM

That was pretty sanctimonious Vince. As a constructive alternative I would suggest that you recognize that there is little chance that such a complex problem of biology will be solved by a bunch of engineers with little background in such things...

Notice the title of the board, "The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion." Not the the biologists place or the entomologists place... Perhaps you posted the question to the wrong forum?

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 8:33 PM

Steve,

" That's very well said, and may all be true, but let's cultivate our garden."

Is that what Leonardo did?

Cheers


Vince

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#29
In reply to #24

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:46 AM

Notice the title of the board, "The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion." Not the the biologists place or the entomologists place... Perhaps you posted the question to the wrong forum?

General discusion is not the correct arena for...what?

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#42
In reply to #24

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:18 PM

Hello Steve S

I agree that the problem is not likely to be solved exclusively by engineers. However, many of the associated issues have an engineering component. For example, one poster mentioned the wood pellet production. Some municipalities do not permit the installation of outdoor wood burning pellet stoves. Meanwhile the insurance companies are reluctant to allow indoor wood burning pellet stoves. They usually triple the insurance rate. It's all a question of standards etc. This is clearly something engineers can address.

Some areas are not permitted to be logged due to problems with soil erosion. That might well be another issue that engineers can be sucesssful in developing a solution for.

Biologists may discover a remedy for the excess number of bugs. But if the delivery system of this solution to the beetle infested area is not available it isn't useful. The new delivery system may well be an engineering solution rather than a biological one.

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#26
In reply to #19

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 9:35 PM

Actually, my first article on phyto sanitary packaging regulations (heat treated wooden pallets & packaging materials) was written in 2004. As dunnage for exports and infected dunnage from imports from China was affecting my industry.

The prior post pointing out that engineers are not biologists makes a good point about this perhaps not being the most appropriate forum for this and other 'Global warming' what can we do topics.

From an engineering perspective, setting fire to the contaminated and diseased timber would be easy to propose and accomplish. socially and aesthetically it would be unacceptable. reducing the beetle population. Mixed species reforestation would be the next prescription, but I'd hardly expect that that requires an appeal to the global engineering community to figure out. Monoculture vulnerabilities best example is probaly windows operating system. 'nuff said. So Mobis pictures of dead timber stands (which will certainly succumb to forest fires sooner rather than later) will be the compromise.

Establishing timber quarantine zones to prevent inadvertent transport of pests will be likely economically unacceptable to the interests of the timber industry.

A one time quick spray of DDT , a proven engineering solution, has no chance in Hell of being accepted in todays current political climate, and so the trees are condemned to death as are the malaria victims in Africa. There is no "safe dose" so asking the engineers for solutions to problems that their solutions are borne dead is folly; the suggestion of DDT alone will surely earn me the wrath of many.

But these are among the needed solutions if we are to take effective steps.

But the politics and social issues will trump the engineers who will be told, well, "We didn't say you could do it that way." or "well thats too drastic, we can't do that."

Until a common denominator of envronmental pain and Economic cost is created, these problems will not be solved, let alone by engineers.

We have firewood transport quarantines here in Ohio USA because of the ASH borer. We are enforcing those regs daily with our highway patrol and other law enforcement.

milo "my constructive alternative is your taboo"

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Mountain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:07 AM

Milo,

Again you bring up a good point about DDT. During WWI it was used on soldiers to de-bug from lice. They poured it on themselves and lived to be a hundred. The biggest hit against DDT was that the eagles eggs were thinner shelled and would break when the parent laid on them to hatch. We used DDT to keep the flies off the milk cows and on our crops, vegetable, you name it. We OD on DDT.

A one time use may actually have few effects. I here that Mexico still uses it on the vegetables that they send over here for us to eat (may be a rumor??). oh well, Politics. We need some good dictators to get things done.

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 4:22 PM

Biological controls have a depressing failure rate, ending up worse than the original infestation, and Bwire's early comment that trees stressed by lack of rain were more susceptible is also a factor that must be considered. As another poster pointed out the monoculture is at least partly to blame, as is our wastefulness. the waste is possibly the easiest target, but trying to work with biology is also vital. Sorry not well phrased, but we must learn to respect natural diversity, not see it as inefficient.

Simon

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 5:48 PM

GA for your perspective...

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/27/2008 6:34 PM

People say "flea bitten old nag" referring to horses, never "flea bitten young nag". Resistance to pests decreases with age, stress, illness, whatever. Sadly, life is more complex than people want to believe, and they want to believe it is simple because management can only cope with simple answers.

GA to you

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#28
In reply to #23

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:42 AM

Yea, concentration upon what is is more profitable than reinventing it before the symptom is diagnosed...

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#33
In reply to #18

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:14 AM

Saddlechariot,

I doubt that the rugged Rocky Mountain area that is being infested is a seeded monocultures. A mature forest goes through many stages of tree types and species before becoming a monoculture by themselves.

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 10:51 AM

If this is happening in virgin forest, I stand corrected, but I thought most commercial logging areas were planted. I don't think many logging operations can afford to wait for natural re afforestation.

Simon

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#37
In reply to #35

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 1:47 PM

This Pine Beetle infestation is spreading into areas which have not been logged previously. I recently moved to the center of this area. It is not just mono culture reforested areas. Recently an article in one of the Geographic magazines published an article about how a forestry student doing his thesis work discovered an area of old growth rainforest in the middle of this supposedly pine tree forest. It has proven to be a surprise to all the experts who study such things.

I'm also somewhat dismayed at the cavalier atitude displayed by some posters concerning the problems. Pine beetle killed trees will rot on the stump because of the presence of bateria etc that contributes to the decomposition of the tree in the absence of a living organism fighting back.

However, beetle kill wood will be preserved if they are logged and milled to lumber and kiln dried. In doing so the decay bacteria is arrested. Several engineering not to mention business problems are associated with this.

The sheer volume of work involved in cutting down the beetle kill is beyond the scope of available manpower and equipment.

Secondly, extensive clear cutting removes the ground cover needed to inhibit soil erosion. Left unchecked tree cutting would produce even greater environmental damage. with attendant economic disruption.

When salmon streams are muddied by silt from soil erosion, you also affect the coastal salmon fishery. That has an effect on food stocks and the ability to feed a lot of people.

The sudden removal of so many trees as oxygen producing sources also has an effect on air quality, not to mention temperature moderating effects.

Has everyone forgotten that Lebanon was once forested by giant cedar trees. Now look at it! A clear failure of social and environmental engineering. We can do better with our present knowledge.

At present all the local mills are over stocked with finished lumber they cannot sell. At some point they will no longer be able to operate. If you cannot sell your product , you cannot pay your employees.

One solution is to convert the sawdust into fuel pellets, but a small vocal faction of environmentalists argue the burning of wood pellets is contributing to cabon emissions and increasing global warming. We need engineers to refute this or find a better solution. Wood pellet stoves are as clean burning as natural gas. But you cannot get permission to install these pellet stoves because the govenment doesn't even have a standard against which the stoves can be measured for compliance. Duh!

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:12 PM

I'm also somewhat dismayed at the cavalier attitude displayed by some posters concerning the problems. Pine beetle killed trees will rot on the stump because of the presence of bacteria etc that contributes to the decomposition of the tree in the absence of a living organism fighting back.

Slack up a bit elnav the time frame between beetle kill and rot occurring is significant; 3-4 years and during that time frame the wood will cure on the stump. Please let's take advantage of this unprecedented opportunity to harvest lumber,

The sheer volume of work involved in cutting down the beetle kill is beyond the scope of available manpower and equipment.

An opportunity to reduce unemployment.

Secondly, extensive clear cutting removes the ground cover needed to inhibit soil erosion. Left unchecked tree cutting would produce even greater environmental damage. with attendant economic disruption.

Money saved by natural wood curing could be used to apply seed and fertilization to propagate undergrowth re-establishment.

The sudden removal of so many trees as oxygen producing sources also has an effect on air quality, not to mention temperature moderating effects.

We need work with what we've got on this point.

Has everyone forgotten that Lebanon was once forested by giant cedar trees. Now look at it! A clear failure of social and environmental engineering. We can do better with our present knowledge.

The discussion in "Sustainable Engineering - Breathing for the Future" is an attempt to address this point.

At present all the local mills are over stocked with finished lumber they cannot sell. At some point they will no longer be able to operate. If you cannot sell your product , you cannot pay your employees.

Is not result of lack of demand cost is prohibitive, a glut of timber would bring down cost of product and sales will increase.

But you cannot get permission to install these pellet stoves because the government doesn't even have a standard against which the stoves can be measured for compliance. Duh!

Installations with catalytic converter are permitted.

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#43
In reply to #40

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:25 PM

But you cannot get permission to install these pellet stoves because the government doesn't even have a standard against which the stoves can be measured for compliance. Duh!

Installations with catalytic converter are permitted.

REPLY: NO! This week-end I attended a trade show and got talking to a man who was on city council who said he was hoping that these stoves would get approval soon. Council is very eager to allow them but since no standard exist for this particular class of pellet stove they cannot be type tested for approval. This is a political problem not a technical problem.

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#46
In reply to #40

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:50 PM

Bwire said: An opportunity to reduce unemployment.

REPLY: Only partially true. The American economic downturn (result of the sub prime mortgage issue) has reduced new home starts in north America by a significant factor. The nearest local mill produces 1 million board feet per day. At present they have stockpiled over one Billion board feet of finished product. Their stockpile of raw logs covers some 30 odd acres. Logs are stacked 15 - 20 feet deep over this whole area. The lack of market demand means they cannot sell as much as they can produce.

Same situation exist for all the other mills. You can't just take a planer operator and stick him in a feller buncher or an off road logging truck . They are not licenced or trained to operate such machinery. To get certified to operate them requires time.

Again this becomes partly a political issue. To acquire additional equipment cost money. Even if you only try to fix up and service existing equipment not buy new it cost a lot and requires mechanics who are in short supply. Provincial employment records show only 5% are not employed.

Which is why I say a lot of these trees will rot on the stump because we cannot cut them down fast enough. We have already seen problems with soil erosion when the cutting has been careless or too extensive.

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#50
In reply to #46

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 3:41 PM

Yes their is no simple answer to this issue however we can work towards an end even if the procedure won't ever be completed or completed in time an effort needs be made.

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#44
In reply to #37

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:44 PM

If "This Pine Beetle infestation is spreading into areas which have not been logged previously." then it must have started in the previously logged, planted, potentially monoculture areas, which is the valid point another poster made, which I was repeating.

I didn't say that was the only problem, I merely said it could be a factor, and sure this has been a pretty light hearted look at the subject, but if people want it taken seriously, a bit of serious thought before posting helps. Cracking jokes doesn't make us bad people, any more than checking facts does.

And we are all thinking about the subject, someone may well realise that an idea lurking in their brain that required plentiful low grade wood, might now be viable, or a design for a vast solar powered bugger ( a device for catching bugs) might make any one of us a millionaire.

Simon

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#64
In reply to #37

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 9:14 AM

Has everyone forgotten that Lebanon was once forested by giant cedar trees. Now look at it! A clear failure of social and environmental engineering. We can do better with our present knowledge.

Too true, often referred to as "The Majestic Cedars of Lebanon" This certainly was an absolute disaster............BUT.......... as to be able to do better.

Unfortunately NO..............take for example the rainforests in Indonesia..............not enough.................try the Amazon. burning and clearing it at a rate of about 10 000 square miles/year...................it would be nice to think we could do better, but alas, no.

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#70
In reply to #64

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/30/2008 3:14 AM

Just to add to the above I was watching a program this afternoon that stated approximately 95% of the giant redwoods in California, some in excess of 2 000 years old, had been chopped down...............it is apparent that man still cannot do better and learn from his mistakes....................paticularly where the almighty dollar is concerned.

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#39

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 2:06 PM

hello vince out in lotus land.

it is ironic that you seek a environmentally friendly way of dealing with the pine beatle while at the same time another group or contingent of environmental activists is seeking a truly natural methods demise.

i think that by looking back a few years in records of bang and dyerborg reports you may find a highly concentrated form of ready to apply selenium in a near pure state.

however getting your hands on it is if environmental activists succeed in their shutting down the seal hunt.

good luck with getting anything else to work as well, your problem is the same is the one which arose in manitoba parks, it is better from a dollar standpoint to use larvicides than good old mineral oil sprayed on breeding grounds, the larvicide costs so much more and has greater long term eco damage potential.

'da ber

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#52
In reply to #39

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 11:09 PM

Hi there.

I'm quite far from the Mountain Pine Beetle and I have no pecuniary interest in the subject.

I wanted to share an idea to solve a problem and I thought that CR4 would be a good brain storming forum. It has now caught the attention of many and thanks to some of the participants, it seems that our problem has been well defined...

Good luck to us all.

Cheers

Vince Gentile in Toronto

"Age si quid agis"

P.S.

I am registered but unable to login. I get into a do loop. How come??

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#54
In reply to #52

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/28/2008 11:54 PM

Can't help you on the log in vince.

"Facta non verba" would have been less of a challenge for us mere plebians than your Plautus quote "Age si quid agis." We're merely engineers here, not claiming to be classical scholars.

There will be no "Oscars" here; This is the engineering forum, not the actors forum.

Actors work for a producer, usually for a pecuniary interest... We'll not be acting in this 'production.'

Do you really read Plautus? in the original Latin?

milo, functus officio

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 12:28 AM

Thanks Milo.

No actors or producers here. I'm a mere Civil just having some fun, reading now Plutarc's Italian translation "The Art of Listening"...

Very appropriate under the circumstances.

Ciao

Vince

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 12:32 AM

Cool!

I read your quote as "come on, lets see some acting..." hence the 'actor' ideation.

milo

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#55

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 12:12 AM

Hi Vince,

I'm no engineer, but I do live in the environment , so I do have an appreciation for it.

Come to think of it, I really can't think of any place, I would rather live.

I do have a bit of Professional Pest Control experience as I own an Extermination and Product Sales Company , in addition to my other minor pursuits. www.dopestcontrolyourself.com is the Co Site.

In America, we have the same beetles that you noted in BC & in the state of GA it's just commonly called the Pine Beetle. Same damn bug and It's just as much of a costly problem. I have a Land & Timber Purchasing Company too, that I own , www.woodallhouseandgardens.com and the Beetlewood, is a real problem, as the mills won't take it, if the bark is sliding. Makes me want to suggest to some of my construction clients, that they build Cordwood houses with all that dry standing timber - & if they need other space, then go - Georgia Adobe !

From an Exterminators view point , until Lindane was stricken from the United States PC. marketplace , along with the other "Danes" , during yearly forest management, we would take our termite rig and spray the living trees , with a pressure washing strength spray, of mixed Lindane. It's an oily product, one that doesn't just bleed off as the others might and as such, the tree bark absorbs most of it and this kept the beetles from boring into that tree. Not homeopathy, but it worked.

An area , about 25 to 30 feet up the pine tree , is the area to work up to, "Mostly" with your spraying as that this is their flight path height, on the average. Sometimes, when I've been cruising a patch of timber & I've seen those pine beetles flocking, at that height.

If I, were to try something today ( in an area where it was not illegal to do so ) I would try this:

As that Pine Beetles live in the cambium layer of the tree - which is that thin layer of living tissue just under the bark, where the tree's nutrients flow up and down the trunk ,of the tree; In general, a systemic pesticide, that controls forrest pests would be used . A product called Pointer can be injected directly into the trunk with a device called a "Wedge" (both are available from us but very expensive ) and Pointer is labeled for bark beetles too. However effective, it is in killing an existing infestation that I'm really not very sure of, as that I've not sprayed it myself ,but it is worth trying if you have 1 tree to fix.

For forest size problems, your other alternative, chemically, is perhaps a product I know a bit about and it can be used for inside & outside use, it a brand called Dragnet ( a 36% Permethrin ) and can be used as a bark spray treatment, for the prevention or of an invasion in tree hopping beetles. It is labeled for bark beetles yes, but it is not going to penetrate , into the tissues of the bark , to kill them inside.

When the tree has them, you will most likely loose the tree. Instead, it should be applied just prior to adult beetle activity and (egg) ovipositing, to kill the beetles as they attempt to chew into the tree trunk.

Again, this is a preventive only, but it can be very effective in protecting a tree against future problems when spraying with some schedule. Improving watering and nutrients is also a great idea too, as this gives the tree & underbrush, greater strength to repel beetles as they attempt to penetrate. A healthy Pine tree has a better ability to push sap out and into the hole as it is being made by a beetle and either pushing the beetle back out or trapping it in the sticky sap trap. (Think Jusasic Parks premise)

Drought conditions cause the heightening of tree losses due to the feeding of hopping beetles and they lay somewhat more dormant in good weather as they do not thrive as a species, during healthy tree times, as their eggs aren't laid under the bark, if the trees are healthy enough.

A Permethrin with a bit of pine oil added , might would soupe up the mix , but it is not a long term fix, as in the perfect dry weather outside , you only may have just about 30 days or less, of chemical life effectiveness ; but for small jobs , one could work their trees with a high pressure sprayer , often.

For the world forest at large , well they are in trouble. Tree huggers and the US EPD have caused the loss of forest burning as a tool and all but small amounts of chemical spraying of forest is prohibited , so our forest have suffered. We will all pay for these decisions - We always do.

Will the beetles be here in the greater numbers than we've seen ? Most likely, yes & I don't know of anyway, but to use some of these chemicals , that were banned and said to cause birth defects and cancer for some, just to save other things or there will be losses of most variations of pine trees & eventually the beetles too, from starvation if they don't adapt to new trees, most likely . The poor little things !

Everytime, I draw my sword ,

I have to think of what I'm saving & not what I'm killing.

Hey, you want'a start a "Save La Beetle" fund , 301C-Corp ? -

I'll let you be President - If You Pay Me A Good Salary !

Hope That Helps You Some, Best Regards.

Joe Woodall, Managing Partner

Georgia Adobe Rammed Earth & Renewable Energy

Woodall House And Gardens Land & Timber Co

President, Do Pest Control Yourself . Com

2395 Bowman Hwy. NW.

Dewy Rose, GA 30634

www.georgiaadobe.com

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#58
In reply to #55

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 12:50 AM

Hi Joe,

thank you for your enlightenment! Do you think the MPB might be allergic to garlic?

Vince

gentile.engineering@gmail.com

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#61
In reply to #55

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 5:16 AM

Good to hear from someone in the "know." I thought your response to many of the ideas previous forwarded was excellent.

Thanks for the info.

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#62
In reply to #55

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 8:54 AM

As an agronomist with a Masters degree I have some knowledge of plants and herbicedes/insecticides etc. Your assessment is good. The only control that will work is to find an insecticide with a adjuvant that will allow the insecticide to penetrate the needles waxy coating. If the tree can absorb the insecticide systemically it will kill any pest that is eating on it. The longevity of the insecticide only has to last one life cycle. The cost of production all the herbicides/insecticides are minimal - the main costs are passing all the goverment regulations, research, testing and insurance.

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#63
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 9:00 AM

....................and "tree huggers"

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#65
In reply to #62

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 9:47 AM

Russ,

Will this manner only kill detrimental pests; i.e. some pests may not be contributing or have a beneficial nature in this circumstance, will they also die. How many insects or other life will die needlessly in the process.

I am not a tree hugger but I do question why we should do anything? Should we intervene because we are responsible for this reaction? Did we precipitate a response from nature in our normal arrogant manner? Why intervene? According to elnav we can't utilize the wood product anyway. Or? Should we address the reason the trees are stressed which is the underlying reason the pest is successful, healthy trees are not susceptible to infestation.

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 10:52 AM

Hi bwire,

About two years ago, a friend of mine, had a visitor from Canada who evidently travelled throughout Canada fairly extensively. I asked him about this problem with the MPB. He pointed out how vast this problem is and said the main reason for this problem was a lack of very low temperatures which maintain a degree of permafrost for a fair period of time.........this evidently will kill the MPB. (I cannot remember exactly how it was put, but that was basically how I remember it).

To my mind this seems fairly conceivable.............and put this together with the freeing up of the Northwest Passage this year..........which has probably been steadily approaching this point for quite a few years.........it sort of makes sense as to why there have not been these extremely low temperatures to kill off this destructive pest.

Dare I say it....................is this the effect of Global Warming??????

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#71
In reply to #66

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/30/2008 10:14 PM

I asked him about this problem with the MPB. He pointed out how vast this problem is and said the main reason for this problem was a lack of very low temperatures which maintain a degree of permafrost for a fair period of time.........this evidently will kill the MPB. (I cannot remember exactly how it was put, but that was basically how I remember it).

Okay the lack of rain scenario was indicated in the state Arizona's forests also having beetle tree kill problem.

This State of Colorado, USA report is supportive of the temperature aspect in specific instances also.

You will find this very interesting:

www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/insect/05528.html

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#72
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 1:27 AM

Thanks bwire, it was an interesting article and I think the main thrust behind this article and others, is that this epidemic is caused by a number of factors resulting in trees being in a stressed condition, particularly climatic.................also mans intervention in the prevention of wildfires in forests.

Another point is that this problem is affecting all Western US states down to Mexico.

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#73
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 11:22 AM

Thank you MOBI,

The imagery reveals the chronological events well. I agree our previous century of fire prevention has produced many a pitfall, fire is a housekeeping event of the environment and a process so well designed shouldn't need disruptive bureaucratic management.

Our ecosystem was designed to overcome manipulative interruptions so we should survive okay but property values or quality of life may suffer immediately in certain areas.

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 12:11 PM

Hi bwire,

One of the things that gets up my nose is people who live in fire prone areas.

I do not begrudge them living in magnificent wooded/forest areas, but what does bug me is seeing these homes with wooded areas up to their backdoors, so to speak.............a bush fire (wild fire) occurs and burns their housedown.............they claim on insurance.............who pays for it. We all do with higher insurance payments.

I would like to see these ones forced to have a clearing around their houses and adequate fire protection systems fitted. e.g. dam/tanks, suitable pumps and fire hoses and be trained in basic fire fighting. Here is a fire fighting agent that is ideal for home and garden protection:-

You probably re ware of this type of agent.....................relaivly cheap as well and easy to apply.

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 1:27 PM

Mobi, what is the URL link to the picture you posted.? Can't really tell what it is .

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#83
In reply to #75

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/02/2008 12:06 PM

Hi elnav,

I will have a look for the URL link. My last pic wasn't complete, hope this makes a little more sense.

BARRICADE GEL FOAM

Super absorbent polymers absorb hundreds of times their

own weight in water.

Mixture:- 2% Barricade to 98% water.

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#84
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/02/2008 12:16 PM

Hi once again elnav,

Here is the site where the pic was aquired:-

www.barricade.com.au/1253750/barricade-fire-blocking-gel-technical-specificat.htm

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#85
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/02/2008 1:17 PM

Thanks! Looks like an excellent product. Last year when a train derailed, they had to bring in a bomber to try and put out the fire from four gasoline tankers that crashed and buckled.

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#86
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/02/2008 9:33 PM

I think in that case they would have used a dry chemical powder as the Barricade Gel Foam is only recommended for A Class fires (solid fuels:- wood, paper,etc.). They could have also used AFFF, which is a synthetic foam that is ideal for B Class or liquid fuel fires (petrol, distillates, kerosene, etc).

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#87
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/02/2008 11:14 PM

They did! However the cracked tanker car leaked raw fuel down the embankment into the river where the burning fuel drifted downstream setting fire to the trees and grassy banks.Only access was along the RR track or airborne. Hereabouts the majority of fuel is Class A (wood) so the barrier gel is fine.

Forest fires have swept through this region several times over the past century. While reading about the early surveys of the province, there was notes for several years wherin the surveyors could not get long sight lines due to the smoke form distant forest fires. It was impossible to establish triangulation base lines. Except for the gold rush days of 1864 this region has been pretty much devoid of people except along a few well travelled fur trapper routes along the rivers. Later on the Railroads followed a few of the same rivers and so did the few roads which was eventually run through in the late 1950's and sixties.

The majoritiy of fires are started by lightning and may cover thousands of acres before they can even get around to tackle them with water bombers. The few isolated communities usually get cut off for a time when this happens. This barrier gel looks like a good thing for use by the volunteer fire departments you find in most hamlets. Its often 50 or 100 miles between each community.

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#88
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/03/2008 10:47 AM

I can only begin imagine some of the inaccessible areas, particularly in BC, why even in the Adelaide hills with the tallest "peak" being 2 000', we have inaccessible areas. We have eucalypts and like pine, they burn exceptionally well and with a good wind behind it, one has little chance of stopping the fires, until the weather conditions change.

I think that one of the major problems that those living in bush fire prone areas need to remember is that there is always the probability, that power and/or water (or water at sufficient pressure) will be unavailable.

It is recommended that they have, preferably, a diesel driven fire pump, as well as the other points we have discussed.

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#90
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 1:30 AM

I would prefer below ground level accomodations in those instances...

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#92
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 9:55 AM

They actually live underground at Coober Pedy in the far north ot South Australia, but it's not because of fire danger but because of the heat.

Coober Pedy is an opal mining town and derives its name from the Aboriginal words "kupa piti" which means "white mans hole in the ground." It's fairly dry with an average annual rainfall of 5 inches. Here are a couple of photos:-

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#93
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 5:21 PM

Cool and quiet my kinda place, thanks and it would be the heat of the fire that would drive me underground too.

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#89
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 1:28 AM

elnav,

Sounds like a swell place to live, did you say you happened there due to health? How is it with you?

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#76
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 3:41 PM

Barricade Gel is highly recommended but I have no direct info, thanks for the steer.

I had intent to live NW of Libby, Montana but better sense saved me the trouble. I love wilderness areas and strongly believe we should let them be, yes huge areas where is no man's footprint found. We have the space, we should live below 3500' elevation and south of the 45th parallel (:only use the northern regions for recreation.

I wonder if sparks will fly?

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#79
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 4:06 PM

bwire wrote: we should live below 3500' elevation and south of the 45th parallel (:only use the northern regions for recreation.

So what do you intend to do with all the people in Alaska? Its obvious you have dismissed Canada totally but you still have a lot of US citizens above lat 45. Seattle might have a few words to say.

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#91
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 1:33 AM

I also said we have the space and we should utilize it in like manner globally.

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#94
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/04/2008 5:28 PM

I have a brother in Bothell and I'm sure he'll have a comment about the temperate zone extending to 66° N Lat. but That's a bit extreme. I do think enough room is available between 45° N & S Lat..

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#67
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 12:54 PM

bwire wrote: Why intervene? According to elnav we can't utilize the wood product anyway -

What I said was right now we cannot harvest the wood on the stump fast enough before it rots and the economic situation has lowered the demand for milled lumber. When the trees are cut in the early stages of infestation the wood is stil lusable as structural lumber. In the later stages it is only good for chipping.

Logging companies are cutting beetle killed trees as fast as they can and as much as government cutting permits allow. The result is that cut trees are being stockpiled in unprecedenteed amounts. So is finished lumber product.

Wood (pellet) burning boilers for house heat are being installed in sizable quantities. Unfortunately the authorities have not kept up with the times and they do not even have a standard by which these outdoor wood burning boilers can be measured.

Boilers that burn whole wood are also being installed but they are not permitted inside town limits. The result being we have a resource readily available but the government won't let us use it.

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#77
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 3:47 PM

The result is that cut trees are being stockpiled in unprecedented amounts. So is finished lumber product.

Is your comment regarding logistics? Does your region require transport vehicles to alleviate the stock pile?

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#78
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 4:01 PM

No we don't need more transports. Problem is lack of market. Not enough people building new homes and thanks to the US soft wood embargo there are fewer places to export it.

A B train leaves approximately every 15 minutes loaded with chips as is.

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#80
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 4:13 PM

Seems an excellent opportunity to develop and alternative energy industry. You could produce heat and electricity for home steads or small communities and export an allowed product; humus.

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#81
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 4:37 PM

If you had been paying attention you would know that is exactly what I am talking about. I do work with an alternative energy business and that is exactly what we are doing.

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#82
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

05/01/2008 5:00 PM

I am not cheap well almost not cheap. But I can pay attention fairly well; you are thinking to incorporate an existing photovoltaic system in to your business venture.

Also you are trying to consume the stock pile of lumber with outdoor boilers but regulatory interference has stymied progress.

I was somewhat vaguely hinting at an alternative method which could benefit your region in the mean time.

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#68
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 1:08 PM

Good points Georgia.

We probably cannot save the forest, but with a program like yours we can most likely save the species and have plenty of seedling stock for reforesting the region again. Perhaps by then the government will have learnt a lesson and allow multi specie planting in wide belts to prevent the beetle migration.

As crazy as it sounds birch trees are considered a trash weed or scrub tree in this province. Finland has extensive birch tree cover and produces some of the finest birch wood furniture and birch plywood that sells at a premium price. Several local entrepreneurs have sizable groves of birch trees that are tapped to make birch syrup from. Its delicious! For heat to reduce the sap into syrup they uses beetle killed pine as fuel for the boiler..

Sadly its not for lack of engineering know how but lack of political will that we have the problem. What we really need is an engineering solution to rid us of stupid politician who refuse to look beyond the next election.

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#59

Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 1:11 AM

You welcome Sir,

Garlic I don't know, that they wouldn't soon learn to order it with a little pine seedling sprinkles on top and I would think they could survive a cross being driven through their little hearts too.

Joe

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#69
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Re: Muntain Pine Beetle

04/29/2008 2:40 PM

Not quite. That was an inside joke, about the beetle being good protein, in a breakfast skillet, allergic to garlic. I would be too!

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