electric cars

The solar panels are obviously something that really needs to be on an electric car. Solar panels are still not great enough to completely regenerate the batteries for a regular sedan today; however they are both increasing in efficiency and ways to develop them. The newest panels I have seen are wafer thin panels that look like tinted glass. this means that we could install some panels in areas that would normally be needed to see through.

As for the wind turbines placed strategically throughout the car, I have already gone through the theory of just that. It really just amounts to the fact that you cannot use more power than you create. In order to create power from these turbines you would be traveling at a certain velocity, but to get there you would be overcoming more resistance because of the turbines. In order for the turbines to be useful they would have to have 100% efficiency.

Just a quick thought. Couldn't the vents (intake and exhaust) to the wind turbines be set to open at a certain speed? This will eliminate the resistance of the turbines when the car is not running at the minimum speed to have a gain in energy.

Another thought. If you use a front wheel drive electric car, couldn't the back wheels have power generators attached to them to extend the distance that the car can run before plugging it back in? These could also be set to kick in at the minimum speed and would have to be geared appropriately to create a gain in energy.

I have designed just this with looking at ARO dynamics and also the wheel generators to help provide addition battery range there is a guy who did this with a Honda I have to go back and find it on the web. He mounted a fifth wheel in the trunk like a motorcycle wheel that lowered down and he got tremendous additional mileage. The design that I came up with is allot less work and more compact and much less drag. It has been done but old thought can get new ideas to improve.

Would you be so kind as to explain why any sort of load factor on an electric car would not in fact be an increase in load on the battery and hence earlier discharge?

j.

I don't know if it is me you expecting to answer this but I will anyway.

If you connect a generator to any of the wheels it will exert an impedance (electric brake effect) on that wheel and this demands an extra driving force from your motor.

Due to the less than 100% efficiency factor of the generator the power you'll get back is a fraction of what it needs to drive it as well as add the physical weight of the generator to this you are delibaretaly wasting your battery power rather than expanding it.

You could, theoretically, use the motor as a generator also by using it's EMF to give your battery a surge charge whenever you need to hit the brake, as that is a net power.

However, I am less certain about it because these things do not necessarily work with sophisticated electronics that controls the motor. Furthermore, most motors designed to operate as motors, not generators, and that alone is more than enough to out weight the benefits.

So, "there's no free lunch!" Not even a cheap one if you ask me.

Like I said before, the manufacturers would embrace anything that is viable.

What you're describing is called 'regenerative braking', we've been doing it for quite a while now. With modern electronics, it's relatively easy. However, batteries being what they are, it's only ~50% efficient at energy recovery; but, that beats the total loss of 'friction brakes' by a whole bunch.

A regardless where you connect a generator it'll always be an additional resistance to ur driving force. Furthermore, its physical weight will be an extra dead weight to the gross weight of ur vehicle and its generated power will be less than these aforementioned two factors.

In other words manufacturers would have long adopted this in their designs if it was a viable solution to the problem.

The only reasonably light portable power generator is the solar-cell that can generate enough power to overcome its own weight and produce some extra juice to keep the vehicle going. (See any solar racing events!)

The other obvious source is pre-charged battery or, better still, the hybrid method that is currently being used most successfully by some manufacturers.

Is it not clear that any generator load on the cars motion, be it wind turbines or wheel generators, acts as a brake, indeed shortening the time at which the batteries would have to be recharged?

Can you explain your mental process that leads to conclusions opposite to the fact that anything that draws energy from the motion of the car (Think system) is a brake on that motion hence leads to faster discharge of batteries.

Not trying to insult anyone. Just trying to understand mental process that runs counter to what some of us think should be intuitive.

j.

Shades of 'Perpetual Motion'- drive losses, coupled with generation + storage losses make this a net loser.

RE: Wind turbines- If they don't EXCEED 100% efficiency, why bother?

Solar Panels- Pretty expensive, relatively low yield in vehicular size; use this money on batteries & electronics.

Save as much mass as possible; reduce mechanical & aero losses; optimum balance here varies with desired use.

What if we were able to use liquid Nitrogen to produce frictionless wiring, bearings, anything slightly magnetic. We recycle the liquid Nitrogen via a special compressor. All of the wiring would have to be 'encased' so it could avail itself of the liguid Nitrogen.

Or have I fallen off the deep end, again?

Orpheuse

I realize that there are huge problems with my suggestion but I wasn't trying to be funny. Hendirick, would you please take a minute and tell just how impossible what I'm suggesting is?

Thanks

Orpheuse

You're suggesting superconductors right?

The questions are:

1) How big are the losses caused by the wiring & motor resistance?

2) How much power will the refrigeration systems consume?

3) How much weight & volume will the refrigeration & insulation add?

Adding 2 systems that are less than 100% efficent, to make 1 system come much closer to 100%, probably doesn't make sense for a mobile system like a car.

Thank you, Garth, especially for taking a wild idea seriously.

Orpheuse

Check this out:

American Solar Challenge:

http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/

World Solar Challenge:

http://www.wsc.org.au/

These organizations have been working with these concepts intensively for many years. Nice not to have to re-invent the wheel (or the solar car).

Hi guys,

I too had/have this electric car theory in mind for quite a while but never managed to take it far.

The advent of these new type rare-earth magnet motors do seem to offer a lot, especially the BLDC types. Still not without a challenge, like: battery (with a good power to weight ratio), air-drag, and solar panels.

You can have these days bespoke battery with an apparently good characteristics and durability.

Then comes the prolongation of your battery in the vehicle b4 U need to stop to recharge it, swap it, or whatever. (I guess the recently introduced fold-able solar-mats might be a good answer to extend your battery power while you're on the road.)

Then comes the air-drag that should be almost none existent. (I saw recently on the web a two seater prototype car with a less air-resistance than the windscreen wipers can have on a normal car according to the designer.) This means there's no room 4 air capture surface/s to drive a wind generator to effectively extend Ur battery power.

***

I am however contemplating to build an electric go-cart with no greater speed than 40mph under the weight of a 100kg person with a battery that could withstand 10-15minutes of harsh endurance test.

If that works out to be a good venture then the concept of an electric-car can b on the agenda.

In the meanwhile batteries must also improve as they're the greatest concerns in any case.

My reading on the topic of batteries seems to indicate that LiFePo₄ is a good type of battery for electric vehicles.

Scrap the electricity, scrap the turbines, go solar/chemical. Sun makes grass grow, grass makes Henry go.

Back to old days of chariots.

If windmills, and watermills are in, what is wrong with horsepower, but my vehicle is totally modern, stainless steel, sealed bearings, aluminium, HDPE and closed cell foam harness, instant cut off, bluetooth wireless s[peaker system, voice activated control system.....OK I shout at Henry and he does what he likes.

OK I'm just having fun, but there is power there, and nobody is using it. So why not?

Simon

I am working on a prototype now with these ideas. I'll let you know what happens.

What brand motor are you going to use? I have been in contact with http://www.groschopp.com/ and listened to one of their webinar but I am not sure if they have the right power rated motor.

I have just checked out the website of 'lifebatt' about LiFePo4 someone just pointed out earlier but it is not a cheap exercise.

Thanx and stay in touch!

I am using a hybrid off the floor and modifying it I have the rederings and calculations but I am trying to trade one of my cars for the hybrid to modify may take a few months to accomplish but all is there. I am also retro fitting with products already on the market with some modifacations. Funding is out of pocket so that is why it may take a few months.

There are two issues here that for some reason always get intertwined.

One is cheap energy, e.g., wind power, solar panel power, and here and there the nutso idea verging on the perpetual motion issue, or in this case free perpetual energy. Anybody with those sort of schemes is returning to alchemy. (I hear the wings beginning to stir.)

The other is the means of getting decent range before recharging or replacing the energy source.

In the case of the former, for those who seek to avoid the cost of energy, consider the simple, basic, irrefutable fact, i.e., energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Hence a car with bigger rear wheels may look like it is going down hill but it ain't goin no where no way unless you give it a shove somehow.

Those for instance that hope to get free hydrogen through electrolysis of water simply do not understand it takes a lot of energy to split the hydrogen-oxygen bond, indubitably more than the energy in the resultant gases.

(Now I better duck when the nutso flying dragon type comes down on me.)

Solar is a nice idea. Somebody compute the amount of solar energy available per square foot on a really sunny day and match that against the energy required to move a car a given distance. In a sense solar is free if you don't mind waiting a long time for charging.

Once we acknowledge the unavailability of timely, i.e., immediately available, free solar energy we can then talk about a practical electric car.

Batteries are a possible answer. The problem with batteries revolves around the fact that the more energy they store, the heavier they are to begin with. That is certainly true for the lead-acid battery and as well, although in different ratios, for other battery types.

Once you have the battery you then have the issue of charging same. Since charging batteries results in heating the battery, and hence distortion of its cell components, at least, the time it takes to charge batteries is a major problem.

One solution is to have batteries in an exchangeable tray. I will not here get into the problems, infrastructure, costs, etc., there involved. Then you still have the weight of the batteries and energy loss related to lugging them around.

A better solution is fuel cells because given the weight of the fuel involved you get more transportable energy in gases like hydrogen, natural gas, etc. Problem nobody has yet come up with a fuel cell that adequately meets the requirements, cost, longevity, etc. There are one or two possible units being developed even as we write.

Nonetheless, and all heretofore said, if we are concerned with the environment, charging batteries just displaces the production of pollutants from the car to the power plant. The production of fuel gases is likely a costly process and will be reflected at the fueling station.

My suggestion, for anybody that is trying to get away from gasoline is to convert to propane, or LNG. The conversion is fairly simple and fairly cheap. Running on those gases solves some of the problems but not the CO2 one although reducing the rest of the emissions problem gives more time to solve the the CO2 one.

For those who don't mind a little tax fiddle, convert to propane and arrange things so you are filling portable tanks. That way you can avoid the road tax, until at least, the man gets wise to the fiddle and takes measures.

But for a reasonable transit system, mass transit in the middle, with little electric at the ends is the way to go.

My bet would be, if somebody does the math, we could set up free mass transit, as much as possible trains but aircraft as well, and free to use small electric cars at the beginning and end of the transit, and that the numbers in terms of cost would work out at far less than it presently costs in terms of regulation, cleanup, repair of highways, pollution, etc.

Of course the blokes that make big bucks out of how things are now will scream bloody murder. That involves a social problem that might, unfortunately, involve some violence.

Maybe someone out here in fantasy land would run the numbers; just for the hell of it. I'm not going to do that, too much like work.

j.

Jack, why is my horsepower idea in the nutso category. I agree for long range, high speed and heavy loads, a horse is outclassed by a car, but my sailing dinghy will beat your car or truck across water. So you fit the product to the application, but there are a wide range of applications where low speed, low range power is used. Garden tractors for example. Most landscape maintenance could dramatically lower the carbon footprint by dragging powered tools behind a pony. If the cost benefit is purely cash, it doesn't make sense, if the environment is a factor, IT MIGHT.

The same is true for residential area rubbish and recycling collection. Rather than a large truck driving to every house, the stuff could be taken to a collection point. The small pony in my avatar will pull 200+ pounds of me, and the vehicle, uphill, cross country at a gallop. In residential areas in reasonably flat neighbourhoods he could pull quarter of a ton easily,

From an environmental point of view it is surely worth a look.

Simon

ps, its also great fun

Wind will not work.

Solar will work quite well IF you have two or three weeks to go around the block.

Bill

We once built an ATdS (American Tour deSol) solar race car.

Goal was 1 week on the road, how far?, how fast? using only solar- starting 1st day w/ full battery charge.

One day we left out the batteries, went 15 mph solar only; would take that to be the mean speed always- don't forget to average in additional time, such as stoplight, & parking lots, providing you use adequate storage.

So, we understand that solar will work (not for reasonable speeds or length of time), but as for the turbines...

Well, the only way to harness (significant) power from wind resistance would mean a valve/gate to engage and open when the brakes are used at elevated speeds.

Yet this, as well as solar power, will give you power only adequate for secondary systems, not propulsion.

Perhaps a nice air conditioner system would run well with this source.

But to be fair, magnetic brakes are much simpler systems and are already locked into the braking mechanism.

Living in South Florida, I have considered PV panels could be clipped over a car while the car is parked (keeps your baby cooler and can load a charge circuit). Still, we need a bulky and heavy battery bank, and a locking device to keep others from running with your PV cells.

Bio fuels and fuel cells seem to be the best alternatives at the moment. We just have to enhace the filtation system for used vegetable oils and make refueling a safe process with hydrogen.

Robert,

R u suggesting that you have thieves in your neck of the woods too?

That's another problem of course that I deliberately did not take into consideration 'cos u might have nothing but wonderful neighbours.

Perhaps capital punishment could be introduced until solar-cells become dirt cheap and nobody will be interested in stealing ur PV.

Otherwise ur hi-tech motor along with your hi-tech battery might disappear overnight also.

Run induction cables just under the roadway of the major highways/streets. Power the vehicle and charge the batteries off the induction cables while operating on the highways and main thru-fares and you should have plenty left over when you go "off grid."

Imagine the induction cables being part of the commercial grid where the voltage is stepped down to the induction cables and then stepped back up before being fed back to the commercial grid. Meter the induced energy that the vehicle uses.

If the currents are high enough you should be able to charge at relatively low frequency depending on how high the circuit acceptance is on the vehicle.The charging grid would be a resonant circuit where the capacitive variable of the circuit is varied as the inductive load varies.

The practicality of this system is the vehicle circuit acceptance. Once superconductivity becomes an out-of-the-lab application this could work. The scale of application would serve to accelerate superconductive technology. Without very high circuit acceptance on board the vehicle the very high values of rate of change required would present an environmental hazard. But, once the circuit acceptance can be brought to acceptable levels we could easily and cheaply retrofit our roads and highways.

Electric cars are good. They will get better as the power and energy density of the storage devices increase.

From my perspective watching automotive power technology evolve has been like watching glass flow.

Gavilan

It sounds good but this idea was devised as far back as the 70's as I recall. In-fact at the time it was purely suggested to power vehicles (cars) directly, without batteries.

Of course what you are suggesting had been around for quite sometime as a concept. But laying "Induction Cables" under existing roads is not necessarily cost effective nor efficient as opposed to railway tracks.

Who knows, your idea might become a more feasible one in the future as it does not sound too bad.

This is the greatest idea ever. I think this will definitely be the answer to being as one of the most effective ways to recharge the batteries on vehicles on the go. Why they still haven't put those cables into the road is a question that I should ask my greedy government. The economical drawbacks of installation of those cables would be very insignificant in comparison to the gains that will be seen in productivity increase, greenhouse gas reduction, independence from overseas oil companies and many other ongoing problems. Gavilan, I would suggest you to stop contemplating about your idea and try making this idea a reality. I am myself going to do as much research possible and find out more about the so called 70's idea that got forgotten. Also consider the untapped market of ICE conversion into electric motors engines (EME I just made it up) which has to be done in a way that it will be affordable to everyone. Capitalizing on this idea might through country(s) onto depression, but to me it seems like the only feasible answer to all of our prayers.

solar cells instead of paint that conform to the body. the already have solar cells that you can sandwich between glass, that are see thru. degenerative braking. wind generator, that is stowed away ala convertable top. whenever the car is parked, the wind generator is in the up position.

so during the day, while the car is parked at work, both solar and wind are charging the batteries. at night parked outside your house, wind is still charging battery.

wind charging has the potential to put a lot more watts into the batteries than solar, because the surface area of the vehical is not large, due to keeping weight down.

a servanus mast mount with curved blades would give the most power for size. also is very stable. also gives higher wattage at slower wind speed than a blade type windmill. how many servanus rotors could you install within a car, that would pop up when parked? see url below.

http://oregonwind.com/faq.html