how do you get hot water now?

I have a circulating pump in my two-story home and love it! At the furthest tap from the heater, I wait about 10 seconds for the water to be full hot. It does require a return pipe to create the circulation loop, though.

For a retrofit, you could look into the tank-less heaters for point of use. These will require either a gas or electrical supply, though, and a place to install them. Don't know what to tell you if you don't want to create any drywall dust, sorry.

Have you seen/ do you know anything about the ones that have a pump with timer control at the water heater and the thermal valve at the furthest sink that sends the cooled water in the hot water pipe into the cold pipe? Grundfos has one that is mentioned a lot, but I haven't seen many reviews on it.

Nope, that's a new one on me. Clever idea though.

Yes they showed installation of one on "Ask this Old House" on PBS. The cooled water in the hot line is pumped "upstream" under force into the cold water supply line, this making space in hot line for hot water to flow virtually instantly to the hot faucet...after which the flow back up the cold line is cut off and the pump is stopped. Really neat and no re-plumbing of house needed.

I have not used the Grundfos version of this system, but have used a Lainge version which accomplishes the same thing. It works wonderfully, but one must occasionally adjust the timer clock or it gets out of synch and one winds up with hot water when not needed and no hot water when needed (leaving it running continuously is not energy-efficient)

how about an electric on demand water heater at that master bath?

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12820

http://www.gotankless.com/ My former boss put this brand in he thinks its well, Del's pajama's.

http://hotwaterheater.com/

milo

The new fire station at Fort Lauderdale Airport is divided into a dormitory side and an administration side, separated by the stalls for the equipment. Each side it's own water heater. Each heater employs a circulation pump because the runs are so far away. As expected, when the pump is working the water in the kitchen sink (farthest hot water location) is hot within 5 to 8 seconds. When the pump is off, or broken the water takes 3 to 4 minuets to get hot. By that time someone has a bad attitude already. The system has a 1/2" or 3/4" copper pipe returning from the kitchen back to the water heater. There is a temperature sensor attached to the return line at the inlet side of the water pump. (This is from memory, I am at home now) The pump has burnt out the motor twice in the five years since new. If I can help further let me know, I will be there in the AM. I would think that a pump connected under the sink that would pump water from the hot side to the cold water pipe should be effective. With a temp sensor on the hot pipe it should work fine.

Well, if you are 'Master of None', I am 'Master of Even Less' ... and the last time I tried plumbing, I ended up paying more to repair my mess than it would have cost me to get a professional in the first place.

I really don't have a direct answer than can help you, but where I live now I have a very small, 'on demand' system that I have totally fallen in love with ... I don't think it's a closed loop system, but I am amazed at how quickly it works and the supply is endless. It's my first experience with such a system.

I found a link for such. I don't think my 'brand' (German, I think) is shown here, but they all look similar ... the size of a small suitcase hanging on the wall ... very quiet and very efficient. The unit I have also has a 'second side' that in winter does have a closed-loop system for under-floor heating.

Again, sorry that this is not exactly what you are asking for, but maybe some of these vendors DO have what you are seeking.

Good luck.

http://www.mytanklesswaterheaters.com/

I would fit an "on demand electrical heater", in the hot water line, so once the cheaper (gas or oil) hot water from below arrived at the bathroom, it would simply switch its heater off with its thermostat (high precision thermostat, really amazing!), but allow the hot water through.....almost no pause at all to get hot water anymore......

I fitted one a few years ago for a auxiliary bathroom on the first floor, but I just had a cold supply. The one I used was 2 phase 230 volt unit, although it can be wired for 1 phase usage if needed if I remember correctly. I ran a 3 phase supply from the local fusebox and it heats the water almost immediately. (the other phase is used for lighting and a few other bits and bobs!).

Fit the heaviest duty unit power wise that you can supply electricity for as that will heat the best/quickest and do have a thermostatic mixer on the shower/bath, they are really the best thing since "sliced bread" anyway and they iron out any changes in supply water temperature/pressure to give a perfect selected temperature (variable for those who want a hot or a cold shower or anything in between!).

I have them fitted at each bath/shower and you can actually flush the toilet nearby and not notice a change in temperature while having a shower. Before, everyone had to wait while one person had a shower before using any other water!!!!

That way there is no extra (expensive) pump (using electricity all the time, that needs to run all the time), no adding an extra fully insulated return pipe etc etc etc......and the heater unit is really quite tiny and can be left exposed or hidden.

GA. The instant heater will require the same work as the pump under the sink, and lots less fabricating. Plus the product is doing exactly what it was designed for..

I am from India I am using tankless water heater since past 15 years. It consumes 3KW of electric power but I get hot water in seconds and it takes few minutes to get bucket full of hot water. It is called insteneous water heater. I bought when it was only $50/-. To-day may be it is $70/-.

All great input. I think that if I go with the on demand heater, I may wait until the master bath remodel (somewhat near future) as I could get a large enough one to supply 2 baths and laundry on 2nd floor. I plan to custom build the shower possibly with multiple shower heads and there is already a 2 person spa tub, so I think that the on demand heater would probably be best for the water demand. I was looking for a quick solution for now, but I suppose it's not that important and it can't wait until the big demolish.

My solution is quick (see my previous post) and requires very little installing AND it still uses the very cheap hot water from your system, but stops you having to wait 4 minutes or whatever for it to arrive and saves on electricity once the hot water from below is there......!!!!

That is, is does all you want and saves time and saves money!!! Of course it can be plumbed in to supply several baths, but I personally would prefer one per bath or bathroom, easier to install and everyone can bath together , sorry, I meant at the same time!!!

Thanks Andy. I will definitely look into these. I will just have to figure out where I could put it so that it cannot be seen. The wife is sensitive about seeing mechanical whats-its in the living spaces of the house. Did you bury yours in the wall or mount to the wall?

I actually have one upstairs in a cupboard under the sink, it is less than a foot wide, 9 inches deep and about 6 inches thick....some are even smaller. Go and take a look at the offerings near you. You cannot even see it. But it actually looks quite classy.

The one in the basement kitchen (we have a ground floor kitchen as well, but the ground floor kitchen took 4 months to get everything ship shape.....! We needed somewhere to cook during that time....) is simply screwed to the wall, looks good.

If I understand Andy correctly, you should not need a high volume instant heater. You only need to heat the volume of water that is currently in the pipe that joins the current water heater to your sink. By the time you have used that much hot water, the hot water in your current water heater will have reached the sink. As for the other hot water using devices, just install the instant heater so that hot water used in any of the devices pulls water through it. Good luck.

Thats about it!!

www.hotwaterlobster.com

You will find this very interesting

I seem to remember seeing this hot water lobster on "ask this old house" some time ago. How well does it work? It seems like a good idea. Not to mention an easy install.

Firstly I must state that I have never used or installed one, but as a person who likes to be able to get a glass of cold water, also from the bathroom, I do not like the idea of using the cold supply line as a hot return....

Especially as in some older houses, great lengths of cold pipe are not insulated properly.

I see a high cost that I personally feel that my idea, partially tested here by me already, has a better future and it allows one to get cold drinks from the bathroom when you wish and to have almost instant hot water without laying any extra pipe AND when the hot water finally makes it to the bathroom from the boiler, switches itself off!! So in fact it will only be in action for the first few minutes of running a bath or shower....

But I am biased of course!!

master of none,

I really don't know but I think I saw it on the also and the cost it reasonable. My friend has a hot water circulating system and enjoys it. The cost differentials I don't have any.

After looking at the Hot Water Lobster, it would appear to be a circulator that returns the cold water back to the cold water line. Sounds great. But if one has a desire for a drink of cold water from the tap it will now take longer for that water to get cold. Probably not as critical as the wait for hot water.

I agree with both you and Andy Germany. When and if you would like to have cold water from the sink, you would have to wait for that as it would be luke-warm.

It is true that some people, sometimes with very sensitive teeth, actually like warm water to drink, I personally do not and having to go downstairs for a glass of water is boring, as I am completely lazy once in bed!!!

Thankfully, not everyone is as lazy as I am!!!

Thats why I really liked the small instant water heater near to the bath, it does the job of heating the water quickly for the bath and switches its use of electricity off as soon as the cheaply heated water from the big boiler arrives.

Easy to install in less than an hour (which is what I took, we have two in the house)....also they tend to be quite cheap to buy at least here in Europe!!

When cold water is my choice ice is the answer; ice as in frozen H2O...not ice cream as some think it.

Then one would need a fridge or ice maker in the upstairs bathroom.......

I personally find that water that has been heated up, even when cooled down, to be rather tasteless....I could not say what the difference is, or if in fact any exists or not in reality......cold water under pressure in the mains has a lot of dissolved air it, maybe that is the difference......heating up, even only slightly, quickly drives any dissolved gases away.....but I am only guessing.

heating up, even only slightly, quickly drives any dissolved gases away.....but I am only guessing.

Excellent observation...and if effective of radon health may benefit I'm sure.

The water issue has taken a back seat due to an unexpected desire to do a huge master suite overhaul. But that is a totally different thread in itself. I'm taking pictures and may post if any are interested.

We are always interested, please post everything.