Commercializing Alternative Energy Solutions

I agree with what you say, and I like you do not have the facts at my finger tips. But I don't see any gain without pain, and when a leader of a country thinks its only necessary to go to the oil producing countries and ask them to open up the tap a bit further, I think we are in trouble, Attitude? Like some previous threads, what is belief? What is it going to take to make the effort, History is dotted with the haves and have nots, and the consequences of maintaining standards, I really hope my pessimistic point of view is wrong.

Regards JD.

Friend, I'm pessimistic also, because I see lots of 'promise', but nothing happening. No doubt there is are governmental issues ... we see it all the time. But what I think can turn the corner for real, is a viable demand for practical solutions. I'm talking about affordable, DIY-Home Depot, or things your local plumber or contractor can install that can actually pay for itself in savings in a year or so.

It's going to take a generation to change the mindset of those who still drive the 'dualie' pick-ups and SUVs unnecessarily. I can, and I suppose many can, share experiences of such. Folks won't easily change their lifestyles, but if they can reduce the amount of money they spend on any form of energy, they will move in that direction.

yes,stuff will happen,but Hitler get Paris as a gift,de Gaulle was not their,l armee rouge did their conviction,French look bad because a ppppppppppppgen,history proved good is better

In theory ..(that's capitalist monetary theory...I think, and I'm talking about in the more affluent western world)) Supply and demand couple with the credit crunch/economic downturn may help as people will start looking for cheaper or free energy and water, and less expensive transport.

The sun is cheap and simple to use (but not at night...hmmm dunno why?)
Wind is fairly easy....

Water conservation is fairly simple.

With government taxing car fuel very highly (UK) and higher road tax on big cars people will be thinking 'greener'.

When people stop wanting useless shiny new things which are linked to perceived status.... and start trying to save, they will begin to appreciate that they aren't quite so hard up after all.

There was a nausea inducing bit on TV here... about how many kids have their fancy mobile phones stolen.... D'uh... well if you just have a basic one it won't get stolen. It's hardly rocket science.

Don't get me wrong I'm not pro thief, but I'm pro common sense. Anyone who buys their 10yr old the latest all singing all dancing phone is a moron as they are putting the kid on the firing line. At what point did parents forget how to say 'No' ?

Now look you've made me rant.....

Del

Del,

Your rantings are more logical than most people's logic

(meow)

The negative answer on your topic is placed just in your topic.

Since these energy solutions had been dubbed as alternative which subconsciously assimilated as something optional or even "underground"(alternative art, underground music) they'd got their fate verdict. Second point is that as history of mankind has shown the main breakthrough technologies had been spread neither for reasons of its good commercialization nor for other officially declared goals. Warships had been done as weapon and only then had turned up its commercial applying. For recent days air- spacecrafts, nuclear power and even concept of inet IP protocols had been developed and spread not for its good market properties at first head.

Therefore the decision that would made oil-gas-originated energy as obsolete would be awaited from unexpected direction. Be truth I am feared where from it can come to us.

Billions of $ had been spent for cancer problem and other terminal diseases and where are results in terms of reliability, affordable and so on? Even for developed countries? Regardless of a very good commercialization the issue.

Therefore, to my mind:

commercialization is not the perfect instrument to have this work done to your formulated terms,

movements incited by govts (I so suspicious to any politician) very delayed and mistargeted in response,

fear (threat of war) - seems and thanks to skys this engine can't work as we simply can't afford any conflict. I really do not know.

Maybe someone will do this work "just for fun' that promoted Linux team?

I have not positive answer at all.

Let us to suppose we have got once cheap affordable origin of infinitive energy now. Does this fact make ours life really better, easy or safer? Does this resolve present social and world problems? I fear this bring us only new one and multiply which older.

Sorry for so gloomy sight. But I agree with you that at first head we all should change something inside us then only any technology will be work just for as you said "general public".

Hi Milo,

You are right, each of us is individually both culprit and solution. From being good conservators of what we have, to forward-thinkers of what can be done to improve.

What is impacting me is the plethora of 'solutions' that don't seem to be either easily accessible, widely understood, or not considered as important. We all 'turn on the tap' and 'expect' hot water, and are only miffed when it isn't there. We do the same with all the conveniences we have, and just take them for granted. Yes, we move toward energy efficiency and appliances now must publish that, but it seems no one much cares or pays attention at purchase time. Maybe it will take a major shortfall for the masses to realize the need to be conscious of the need for change.

I don't really trust governments to do the 'trick', and that's not intended as a conspiracy or radical statement, but just one of efficiency. Governments have rarely been very successful at truly steering the popular opinion of the masses except by radical controls which no one likes.

The fact is, money makes the world go 'round. If some company could 'catch' the wave of some (ANY) viable technology to save the buyer energy money in exchange for a good profit (that's what it's all about), AND market that savings as a reason to buy their products, that 'wave' of consciousness just might catch on, and others, too, might see the profitability of doing similar things. The net-net is good for us all, and truly millions of people reducing consumption 10% would be of a greater impact than a few who make radical differences.

In my heart, I just would like to see a real impact from the technological focus on 'green', and I think that is best accomplished by helping the 'masses' embrace smaller, simpler changes, and I think the best way to do that is make things 'popular', 'easy' and 'accessible' to everyone.

Thanks,

Well said.

There will be a tipping point. Sooner rather than later.

The question is, will we have the cash to take advantage of it when it comes?

Who among us are saving for such opportunities?

milo

By way of agreement with yourself and Milo. Early adopters create the opportunity by taking a risk. In my case when I had the roof replaced (Zincalume) I took the opportunity to both add insulation and beef it up to better support the expected 400kg or so of a close coupled Solar HWS. While I was saving to buy the HWS (and over the years before) I was thinking maybe I'd be better to deploy a heatpump design. A commercial unit eventually appeared which in terms of ROI, tidiness and side benefits seemed a better proposition than the collector unit. We have had the benefit of this item for some years now. We sufferred from the early adopter blues which I have sorted myself with no assistance from the manufacturer.

Over time I expect to eliminate the energy cost of pumping water by experimenting and using my machinery to build the items I need (apart from any PV items).

Doing it, is all that will make it happen.

DCaD - I also agree. Governments with laws and regulations distort the true values of energy conservation. Only the free market and making products that appeal to people in quality and price as well as in energy efficiency will move the world economy toward lowering energy consumption.

Very good point and I practically agree with you. Any govt barely is good investor and much more worst promoter for long prospect as they spend/waste means that weren't them earned. They should be frugal and careful at their spends -- it's their the only duty which they can provide more less effectively. Though the paradox and one more contradiction is that so much innovation had been made for fake goals.

I do agree with your second viewpoint as well as if we (mankind) are destined to get more abundant and safer for environment origin of energy --- we shall get it at all, no matter who promotes or works against this. As engineers we have to do all us best for a while. I'm pessimistic but time will show.

There is a viable way to get neighbourhoods to participate in a collective venture to purchase en masse these energy saving technologies.

Solar panels are becoming affordable and if one was to organize their respective neighbourhoods into 'bulk buying' platforms many companies would certainly offer significant and cost saving discounts.

I've participated in the APIX-Sep, or Sustainable Energy Project Blog through its various permutations since last November. My suggestions amount to this: Stores that run from what they sell, and integrated systems specific to their locations, along with a web store presence. My suggestion is further that this be an international franchise that integrates not only the various systems of wind, solar, gas, hydro, et-al, but also integrates economic practices and systems allowing for barter brokering so as to empower the poor.

The gas station and the infrastructure of petroleum production and distribution, as well as coal has the advantage of being in-place and mature in many respects.

From what I understand, companies that went into alternative energy were forced into bankruptcy when oil prices went down in the past.

It would appear that the time when oil prices will go down so much as to force alternative energy systems into bankruptcy is past. On that score there is some cause for a measured optimism.

Grid and Off Grid conflicts will continue. Large energy companies are moving towards co-opting the available technologies. The newest Fresnel mirror solar systems are appropriate for grid power, but it is pointed out in a short reprint of a Der Spiegel article in this weeks issue of The Week, that countries with appropriate sunlight are also countries with oil, producing a conflict of interest.

-(article mentioned authored by Jens Lubbadeh, titled We Must All pull together to Harness the Sun.) -Company mentioned is The Trans-Mediterranean Renewable Energy Cooperation.

The politics of power are really more the hitch than the technologies available to us.

The bald truth is that civilization itself is at risk due to the fact that many already are denied access to the energy they need to participate in the global urban economy. In another thread about government Garthh initiated it came to appear that power politics would best be addressed through an international technocracy.

European and even US precedents for such institutions do exist. Interpol comes to mind, as well as the history of the interstate highways system. Some of you may think of other appropriate precedents stronger than the two I mention.

Independent of governments and politics I have made my suggestions, which I expect will make some people money.

The KGB simply codified the motives consistently at work in individuals. It spells MICE: Money Ideology Compromise and Ego. It would appear that collectively "we" have come to a point in our history when renewable energy sources, are becoming competitively profitable. I am particularly impressed by the Fresnel mirror systems for solar myself, but feel integrated systems are vital for worldwide common benefit.

You make some good arguments and for the most part I agree.

But many of the 'Green' solutions are "We have to do something, even, if it's wrong".

Money is one issue:

Fuel cells are presented as a new technology but have been around for more than a hundred years. In 1959 Allis-Chalmers build a 15 kW fuel cell tractor (2 really) that was sent to tractor shows all over.

So many of the technologies that are 'Green' need a break through in materials to make them feasible for general use.

We want hydrogen powered cars - cars are now powered by hydrogen via the storage of hydrogen in hydrocarbon fuels.

What we really need is a cheap, safe way to harvest, store, and transport hydrogen gas. Once that is accomplished the hydrogen powered engines and effective fuel cells will come.

Solar power will come when it is effective in cost, longevity, ease of use, and installation.

Electric cars - I will own one, when and if, battery life is reasonable, when they have a reasonable mileage per charge - (I often drive 2, 4 6 hundred, or 1000 miles to go to a job.), and when I go to sleep on one of those long drives and roll over and am hanging by my seat belt, I won't have a couple tons of battery fluid running over my body!

And wheatear solar, hydrogen gas, or other power its life time must be more than the payback.

There are many working to overcome these problems, from the little guy in his garage, to multibillion dollar corporations.

There are also a multitude of those that only want to part us from our hard earned dollars!

well i have to admit i was thinking all the time along the lines that the government will be stepping in and taking over my lab and all my equipment. but to my surprise i had a visit a week ago from that was a goverment person who asked all the right questions and i gave them all the right answers to. to my surprise my lab is still in one peice and all my equipment there as well. changes are going to come one day at a time we still have people on here that say what we are doing cannot be done they will no doubt be the same ones that will be the last ones to buy and still be the ones getting taken by the govenment for more of there money.

life is not the mistery its the start of a great path to a better understanding of all the world around us question all you can as there needs to be change.

if we can split the atom and make power why is it we cannot change the way we create power ? the biggest problem i have is to see the voltage i have comming out of 3 onces of copper and see the old style using 10 lbs plus of wire to do the same.

Richard

PS:

Tesla, Westinghouse & Edison did there best at the time to create the power we have today the problem is that no one has challanged the way we do things so no other answers were ever sought. look at the fact we can split the atom now and create power from something so small. as they say more from less ! time to get out there and try and spend a few bucks and have a lot of fun along the way !

What is it that you are working on, that can't be done? I hope its not another wireless energy system that supposed to power the whole city . I'm working on something too but if I told everyone what it is, the green men would have to extract the other half of my brain, and I still want to live like the rest of you. I also work for the government, I'm the one who destroyers all of the alternative energy ideas that do not agree with the interest of the Canadian government..muaaahhhaaa. The paper shredder has been getting quite a workout lately!!

P.S. use a bigger copper wire..size matters!

A lot is happening and is available. What alternatives are you looking for?

Commercialization is not just the science and technology, but getting the public at large to embrace it. In marketing, we refer to some items and brands as a 'pull market', where the 'hard sell' has been replaced by a broad desire for the product. iPod's are a good example ... everybody wants one. Harry Potter novels ... people line up to buy them before they are even published. There is a long list.

My point is, how to make energy saving concepts so desirable that it is a the forefront of public thinking? Of course there are solutions now, some expensive, some not, some passive and relatively 'low-tech', some high-maintenance. But, until we can somehow market the 'value' of these products, and get them in the hands and homes of millions, the effects globally will be very small.

Thanks,

Great example chandu!

milo

Friend, this is exactly what I needed to hear ... fantastic. Simple solutions into the mainstream. Great work.

Of course, not all solutions work in all locals, but this same thinking can apply worldwide with the right ambition ... and maybe a little luck .

Great news ... thanks.

Necessity is the mother of invention..........nice!

Chandu Krishnamurthi - That's the whole idea!!! Build a working product, let people see it and you will be flooded with orders. Soon you will have to build a factory and hire people to build them. Best of all you are not so narrowly focused on solar and can actually bear to use fuel when needed. Here's an idea, build a solar steam boiler that runs a steam engine to power a generator to make electricity and use a fueled boiler for nights and the monsoon period. Do-it-yourself electric power. Hope you have the greatest success.