Cylinder sleeving for Engine repair?

the experience I have is with large cruise ship type engines. The procedure is as follows; a boring bar is setup within the cylinder and the cylinder wall is removed until between 10%and20%remains at this point one or more weld beads are run the length of the cylinder, this will pull the cylider away from the casting and it should be possible to remove it. The new cylinder is soaked in liquid nitrogen shrinking it...you can take it from there.

Good luck

That would depend on which engine block.

My experience has been with Land Rovers which are notorious for the sleeve slipping.

For years the consensus was to get a new block, recently someone has developed what is called a top hat sleeve. the block is machined to accept the 'brim' of the sleeve and they work a charm.

Kevin

I love it. The first 2 guys talk about 2 piece blocks when you wish to know about 1 piece blocks.

Sort of like asking what is in that hamburger you are eating and they start telling you what is in chicken noodle soup. See a lot of that on here. Like it is mostly a joke forum. Someplace to put in your 2 cents even if it has nothing to do with what is asked.

Maybe most posters on here are getting so old they can't understand the question?

That may be.

Anyone else notice that?

Joe

That does not anwer his question.Talk about putting your 2 cents in whether it's relevant or not. You did not mention your experience which is what he asked. I guess some people are so insecure they have to pump themselves up by knocking other people down. Not very productive. Why don't you tell us all what a one piece block is I for one could learn something and that I think is the point of this forum. tell yourself I'm smart,I'm a good person and gosh darn it people like me.

thanks anyway,CRUSTY

Thanx for the support Crusty!

What i implied with the term "1pc" was: "integrally cast cylinders), as opposed to the truck (lorry) style of "wet liners", machined & installed as separate units.

Which side of the bed did you get out of today? Or did someone just?:-

Thanks for your contribution.

In some applications re-sleeving is the favored method as yet...

Did you try to hone prior to installation; for best fit?

Thanks,

Don

No, never this that. Might not have been a bad idea, but the equipment I had to work with at the time precluded doing it. An automatic hone with travel control is something I would like to have back then; along with a lot of other goodies.

Ah, the old days...

Sidevalveguru,

What sort of motor do you envisage sleeving? We've sleeved every possible type of motor with dry sleeves.

Wet sleeves are a cinch. They do not need any machining of the block.

But I guess you know all that.

Tell me what you're thinking.

Cheers,

Stu.

Hi Stu,

Iron block USA V8

Fasten ~1.5" deck extension plates, sleeve through all.

So you're wanting to raise the decks of the block by 1.5 inches?

Stu.

Yes, & i'm not sure if i have the courage to bolt + pin them in place; running the piston rings over the interface.

That sounds interesting! What are you doing as far as water jacket in the 1.5" deck you are raising? How are you attaching the 1.5" plate to the block?

You wouldn't be running the piston rings over the interface if once you got your permanent deck plate installed you bored the whole thing and installed a sleeve. Example: the cylinder when normally sleeved would take a 5.5" long sleeve. With your setup the sleeve would be 7" long and there would be no seam/parting line/interface between the block and deck plate then. Would work fine. Big bucks for the work though!

Would you be changing head manufacturers in the process to get a different head bolt hole pattern?

The warehouse we buy from doesn't stock Ohio/Nylen sleeves anymore, can't remember the name of the ones they do stock. But sleeves aren't hard to get.

Ken

Was planning to have water passages in the plate.

1st thought for fixing to original block: sealant on deck, pins for location, a few screws to keep things together temporarily; bulk of retention with extended head studs, using head as a clamp plate.

Nick Arias did something on this theme back in the '70's or '80's, when he first didid his "hemi head" for BBC.

He started out by running sleevless

Yeah, Grade 8 studs, and then figure out what you would have to torque them too to get the correct squeeze on the head gasket. That would work. Deck the block and plate on both sides and should be good to go.

I don't know if the plate would want to spring away from the block when removing the head. If the sleeves had a thou and a 1/2 or so in them, they should probably hold it tight.

Ken

No! I wouldn't be either.

After you've got it true both sides and drilled all the passages and bolt-holes and dowells ,

you'll need to bolt it firmly in place so as to get good accuracy with the boring bar.

Have your favourite machine shop bore it for sleeves. They're not expensive, per se,

And any competent shop will know the tolerances, as far as interference goes. Make sure you get the sleeves with a top land (lip on the outside- like a plastic cup) so that you'll have enough land for the fire-ring of the gasket to seal on.

You'll only need to sleeve down a little past the lowest ring travel, unless of course the bore is damaged and you're doing a repair to that too.

Interesting job. Are you going to fit a wildly stroked crank too? Big long stroke will give you heaps of torque. I read that you don't want to run it fast. Won't need to. You;ll probably need to get longer rods too as the geometry in the crankcase may not let you just rely on the crank to get the pistons up to the top of the bores.

What is it? Side or OHV?

Knowing your handle, it's probably an old 24bolt Ford.

Good luck.

Wish we were doing it for you. I like unusual projects.

Cheers,

Stu

ps. While you'll need a gasket to mount the head, you'll only need something like a good RTV silicone on the block side of the spacer. Once the sleeves are in it's on PERMANENTLY.

Yep, cheap job.

Sleeves, probably about $40 each = $320

Deck block = $110.00

Deck both plates = $200.00 (the surfacing of the top plate would be done after the sleeves were installed.

Install 8 sleeves = $800.00 (bored and honed to finish size 020-060 over, over 060 over costs more.)

Total: MORE than $1,400.00 at my shop, and I wouldn't do it, it's not a money maker. I try to stay away from those! Too much time involved.

Me? I would not use RTV between the block and the plate. Too much give in RTV when you start tightening down the head (on a SBC for example) to 65 lbs. We surface heads that are too thin sometimes and sell the customer a "shim" gasket. I don't know what kind of sealer the manufacturer furnishes with the shim.

And ALL machine work needs to be done to the plates before final surfacing.

The top of the plate would need to be counterbored where the studs go so the plate could be torqued down while installing the sleeves (with cap screws) so the sleeves could be decked off at the same time as the top of the plate. Then you would want to put spacers in those holes to bring them back to the size of the stud and install the studs.

Just a guesstimate for my shop, in business since 1974, and I NEED to raise my prices.

www.KensDMS.com

Thanks Ken, Wasn't ever really expecting it to be 'cheap'.

I've had odd tastes for years; have always planned to, somehow, make it worthwhile to do the special.

A bike shop i dealt w/ for years still is using a wheel balancer that i designed, built, & donated.

shops & practitioners that will go out of their way to provide service deserve remuneration, either 'in kind' or filthy lucre!

Another thought I had was the angle of the lifter bores, I can't remember if they are correct or would have to be rebored to the correct angle and bushed. And if a person put a few new holes in the deck, he could bolt the valve seat plate to the block as a permanent part of it.

Clarence Everett (the guy who was running the shop before I took it over)was a land speed record holder for years at Bonneville with a flathead. We were always messing with his underhead valve engines. Then he tried to make a 427 side oiler go fast down there and just couldn't seem to get the bugs worked out of it.

That would be a snorting motor, an underhead valve 460!

You have the design of the heads ready to be casted from aluminum yet?(fins and all, of course)

Would cast the "plate" from cast iron too so didn't get into expansion problems would be my thought at the moment.

Intake and exhaust both on top?

Now you know...

Was thinking a steel 'deckplate' combination, ports, seats &al. (that's why the extreme thickness)

Fabricate using a combination of CNC milling & GTAW welding

Heads: CNC from solid.

Valves & ports all in the 'vee'; look @ Oldsmobiles 1929 'Viking' for arrangement.

Sidevalveguru @ his 'day job': http://land-and-sea.com/images/dyno/diesel/tandem_docking_station.htm

I was just curious what kind of scrubbing there would be on the sides of the sleeves from the disparity of the metals. I know heads move around a lot on top of a block, aluminum on CI more so than CI on CI.

Guess we'll find out, right Don?

Ken

I've looked at L&S ads before, how long you been there?

Another possibility for the sleeves: Dry liners in the original block, with a flange above; use an aluminum plate + o-rings (wet top 1/2).

Have just this week started my 8th year @ L&S

I think I understand what you said. If I did, then: No. Going to need a one piece cylinder for the pistons/rings to go up and down in. And the top is where all the pressure from the fuel exploding/burning is at. (Hopefully burning and not exploding)

You have photos of the cylinder work Nick Arias did with it?

Not quite; A flanged top liner (see: "guest" Kevin's #2), but with the flange = spacer thick & o-ring sealed to a wet spacer. Wet top, & dry bottom.

Arias' spacer was in a feature article in a Hot Rod Mag, back when i had hair, & was good looking. A quick google found nothing.

VERY INTERESTING!!!!!!

You know Bill Lawson down at Ormond Beach??

Stu

Ken, Good answer. But I diasagree on the RTV. If the plate is pulled down with the RTV wet it'll hit the metal of the block annd the RTV only seals. It won't expand.It'll maintain it's tolerance. If you fit a shim you then get another interface to seal. Less is more.

We'd have the same sort of costs structure, but here that would be regarded as fairly cheap. We have to import the blocks from you guys, so they're not cheap.

Cheers,

Stu

Yeah, you're probably right Stu, since nothing is moving there and there would be nothing except coolant pressure on it since the sleeves would run from the bottom of the bore clear to the top of the bore.

I don't know which "ultra" RTV is the best to use for this application, they are always coming up with a new one it seems. Heat transfer wouldn't enter into it like it does with exhaust manifolds because the plate would have water passages in it.

Going to be interesting to see when he gets it gong!

Ken

Yeah! Ken! This is a 'gas' as Sammy used to say.

This is real engineering.

Amazing just what they're using RTV for, these days. And to think we had to lap-in the crankcase halves of the old Triumphs.

I, quite a while ago, bought a car from a neighbour (that'll show you where I'm from) who'd become confused, with the lager, and driven it, the car, into the river, running. He was a builder and the only 'head sealant' he had was roof and gutter grade silicone, liberally applied to the old gasket, after the dewatering teardown. I did expect trouble, and that was the reason for beating the price down, but, drove it for years. Amazing!

Let's know how it goes, Sidevalve.

Cheers

Stu

MrChevy,

Good sealer for a shim type gasket is Krylon paint. And was thinking a shouldered stud to retain the deck and extending through head then torque down using nuts may apply a more consistent force.

What do you think...

For a steel shim gasket, yes, silver spray paint is what we used back in the 1970s. Now, when putting in sleeves that have a crack in the cylinder we use K&W Copper Coat, works great.

Clarence Everett sure found out about trying to use copper coat on a compostition head gasket. We still see that every once in a while. Most recent last year. ... effect: blown head gasket!

I would think bolting down the plate and then bolting down the head would impart too many different stress factors into the picture. You would want to make sure you weren't torqueing against the stop of the stud that was holding down the plate.

Fun, fun, fun!

Ken

Yeah and I think expansion rates may be problematic if you do not use a cast plate.

Stu, You're spot-on in reading my handle!

I'm currently worling on a 27-stud Ford/Lincoln; @ 337in², its swept volume is more than the 'regular chaps' could dream of.

Am trying to decide if something larger still should be in my future. These querys are pointed toward fitting sidevalve arrangement onto a Ford 460 block; still more displacement, a "modern" bottom end, + a chance to optimise ports & such.

In the western part of the USA, there's a dried up sea with a French name that's starting to call me almost as strongly as it did Mr Munro; how available are BBF in

Queensland? Estimated Post to EastCoast USA?

envisage envision...anticipate

What the hell??

You gonna teach ME English??

Concise Oxford Dictionary, Sixth edition, page 347, column 1, bottom of page, #2.

'nuff said?

Take a look at Darton sleeves.

http://www.darton-international.com/

Be sure to use a "torque-plate", while machining, so the bore matches the head, under force of the studs, (as it will creep @ torque).

If you are interested in 4 cylinder power, the guys at MAZWORXS are planning an 1100 hp 4 cylinder dragster this year. They are also using a deck-riser-plate, (pictured on the site). Last year they turned 9:42 quarter mile, on a SR20 block, at 600+ hp.

www.mazworxs.com

They recommend oil squirter's and channeling, to force oil up under the pistons.

Check out Nord-Lock, www.nord-lock.com, for washers which reverse the vibration and loosening action of the head, rod and crank studs.

Time-Sert makes terrific alternatives to traditional thread replacement devices, if you go with an aluminum block or find it necessary to re-thread your cast iron block with over-sized hardware. www.timesert.com

Many materials suppliers started to source sub-standard materials, from over-seas manufacturers, as the price of nickel skyrocketed. Engine builders got stuck with low nickel steel, instead of the specified materials supposedly offered. So heads have been blowing off engines, lately; while the bad inventories are replaced with re-specified materials. ISO standardization did little to prevent this problem, (but all the sub-standard parts match, within tolerance).

Many companies are now specifying exact metallurgy, rather than a supposed "standard", to prevent this from happening again.

Do yourself a favor, go to Cosworth for your studs, until the market moves the older inventory out of circulation, or you might waste an engine over crap hardware.

Several engine hardware manufacturers are already taking inventory from the shelves, as improper metallurgy is flooding the market. So much for standards.

Good luck with your build!