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Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/08/2008 8:24 PM

Posted anonymously because this discussion to be self-moderating

I decided to drop what I was doing and post upon seeing first report on TV that crude prices had spiked up $20, and that US average gasoline price-per-gallon had surmounted $4.00 ($4.40 - $4.60, up 20ยข within three days, here in Calif.), and is predicted (in less than a month) to reach or exceed $4.50 nationwide (California $5 and growing) by...you guessed it...July 4—also known as American Independence day.

(I will be back periodically to see and maybe seed further discussion threads) Here's one seed for starters.)

If ever politicians were of paramount importance, their time has come.

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#1

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/08/2008 9:02 PM

If ever the time for thoughtful choices by consumers is paramount, now is that time.

Do we need to drive 4000+ pounds of airconditioned comfort zone to the store 4 blocks away to pick up that 1 lb loaf of bread, or soda or ???

IS SUV really an example of jewelry conspicuous consumption statement nearing its demise?

Personally i am riding my bike recumbent when I just have to pick up a single item.

In the winter, though, thats not a choice.

milo

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#2

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/08/2008 9:44 PM

So what's the news here? That gas will hit $5.00 by the 4th of July; Independance Day. Looks like just a sign of the times to me. The founding fathers found out that independance was not free. Neither is living in a society that values things over people. Our society has become so used to the 'good' life that Many can't concieve of driving something more economical that maybe doesn't have all the creature comforts they're used to, or turning their thermostat down to 65F, or even buying a cheaper cut of meat. I live in an area that has a number of lakeside resorts and it amazes me how many rolling mansions I see on the roads yet, towing their SUV or their cabin cruiser or jet boat etc. etc.

So are they thinking, as they're playing and complaining about the price of gas, that there are those that really are affected by the spiraling inflation being caused by these rising gas prices. I heard on the news the other night that local food banks are seeing more needy people but donations are down. Do you suppose those out playing in their jetboats, throwing extravagant parties on their pleasure barges, are using money that might have gone to charities for their own excess?

And that's only part of the picture. No freedom was ever held for long without a continual watchfulness. When you go to the voting booth do yiu even know anything about that person you are puting into office? Is it too late to get a handle on the real government? Do you think those people we put in office stand a chance against the entrenched beaurocracies and the entrenched lobbyists and the military industrial complex and on and on?

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#20
In reply to #2

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/11/2008 7:34 AM

My friends you have the picture, it's a shame a lot of things going 'belly up' and seing like many don't mine yet, I don't know. Just recently I did heared about that a whole bunch of --KATRINA'S VICTIMS STUFF NEVER MAKE IT TO THEM ?-- It was a documental running around yesterday through the 'TV Channels' and they was amaze and frustrating as myself with those kind of 'out of this world' situation. There they show a whole bunch of goodies at warehouses locations just sitting there and ending out who know's where except to the victims. I though those kind of things may happen only at very dictatorial strongh hand system but I guess I was wrong then all these times then.

Now about this fuel troubles to me this are made up honestly. Kind of basic math mis-applied there. Just unbelievable my friends. Anyhow you have a great view as it will be very smart to get back to basics and oil out those bikes for those short errands around the block instead, definetly Buddy...

The other day I was about to get a real nice deal at 'Kmart Store' around here but guess what yeah! I was running out of extra bucks to get it. 18 or so speeds and Hi-Tech frame cut, beautiful puppy. I will eventually since it will be the move. No easy stuff and hard to believe anyway but 'Lord is Great' and his taking account little by little. Lord has his own ways to deal with things and remember the good ones. I'm not that good myself neither I admited, just trying to stay good as far as possible.

All Set now we'll stay in contact this way and chill off it does getting way too hot around by this summer.

Off Road,

MC

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#3

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/08/2008 10:27 PM

7 years ago Tom Delay and Gramham of Texas allowed a ENRON Lobbist to drop a loophole into a funding bill.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/07/17/how_traders_gamble_with_your_energy_dollars/

Now Hedge Funds are using this loophole to CHURN the OiL Furtures they hold.

see here on page 2 how they move the Furtures Contracts around and each time raise the price before the actuall sell to the customer.

http://www.rsi-ireland.com/documents/DarkPoolsVol2.pdf

The Investment Banker and Swiss Banks now have computer matching programs the let these Hedge Funds stay hidden and the Million of Furtures Contracts they hold so Regulation will now be almost impossible since they have moves the operation offshore.

This amounts to the Privatization of the World Furtures Markets.

Seems the old ENRON traders are now Economic Terrorist.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/10/2008 12:33 AM

The sad thing about this is that these are Americans screwing with Americans all for the sake of a buck... Forget having oil on the futures markets or anything else, I think they need to something with the frigging pieces of scrap meat that are screwing us over... Capitalism? No, I do not think so. Greed, power whatever else it is that drives these individuals to screw over their fellows here on this earth of ours. All the more proof that this country (well, not really the country - how about the gov't?) needs a BIG ENEMA ... get rid of the crap inside and see if we can regain our good ol' country again. Lobbyists and politicians making bedfellows? Shouldn't be allowed , the only problem is that the population, as a whole, is allowing themselves to led around like a herd of cattle to slaughter...... The parties know this, hell just look at what they offer us as candidates to be our Commander 'N' Chief... Sad, sad, sad... All three of these "respectable" politicos are liars and what else? Don't know, just ranting and raving

Cheers

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/10/2008 12:59 AM

I don't know who said it but it rings true; "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". This country was on the brink from it's inception. Our founding fathers warned us; "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance". We did not listen. When that commie rat Wilson sold us down the river to the world bankers in 1913 IT WAS OVER. From there on out it was every man for himself. Most folks didn't get it but IT WAS OVER. The great American experiment with a democratic republic WAS OVER. Wilson sold our souls for a few paltry dollars to get us into WW1. What a CROCK. We have now gone so far over the edge that our public lands are now the property of the World Bank. Handed over by Bush, Clinton and Bush. There is no democracy. There is no freedom. All we have is a thinly veiled illusion. This is not a rant. This is all documented and 'they' don't even care if some realize it because the majority has been sucked in with 'bread and circuses'.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/10/2008 1:05 AM

Where can I find this info? It really is a sore subject with me and I would like to see more(do not feel like googling everything at the moment)

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#19
In reply to #8

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/10/2008 5:05 PM

I guess it was a rant. This is stuff I have picked up over the years. History Channel etc. I have kind of built an alternate history to what is taught in the classroom. If I were to try to validate it I would start with Wilson and the Federal reserve.

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#26
In reply to #7

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/16/2008 4:40 PM

Don't forget that Wilson was a Democrat. Look at which party has been in control of the government since then. Then came the imitation Republicans as Democrats covered their wolf's clothing with sheep's clothing. Which is where the two Bushes come in and the Republican Party became more like the Democrats, thinking they could buy votes that way.

This is the year we have the extreme socialists running against the moderate "almost socialists". A terrible choice versus a poor choice, like they have in so many other countries. People like us than have no one to vote for that even has a chance of winning and if we do, it guarantees the extremists win over the merely distasteful.

We need to produce more of our own oil [we do produce 1/3 now] and reduce imports by at least 20%. We need to make synthetic gasoline from coal. One party is so dominated by environmentalists that they consistently refuse to let us do that and place every roadblock possible to prevent American energy self-sufficiency. The other party has too many "pretend" members who vote with the extreme socialist party.

Somehow the sensible Constitutionalist Americans need to take back their party and kick out the masqueraders. I just don't have a clue how except by voting, which is not a very quick solution. A short civil war, a military government and a quick return to sensible civilian rule may be in the near future, who knows?

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/16/2008 9:32 PM

While I may not share your all of your views......

I'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate, who won't have a chance of winning [probably libertarian].

The more votes 3rd 4th or 5th..... party candidates get, the closer to viability real choice & change become.

don't buy the bs That either the repubs or demo's spout.

Vote for what you really belive in not the lessor of 2 evils!

I wish I could vote for none of the above & force a new election [vote of no confidence]!!!!!!

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/16/2008 11:10 PM

Hear Hear!!!

Who shall we get that won't soon become as corrupt as the ones that came before.

As I see it the only salvation for this present system is a God ordained King with the good of the people at heart.

Of course, there is only one man 'living' that could fill those shoes.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/17/2008 12:08 AM

I'll bite who would that be?

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/17/2008 2:25 AM

I was speaking of The Lord Jesus Christ. I guess I was being a bit obtuse.

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#32
In reply to #29

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/20/2008 12:37 AM

Who indeed... What we need is to get rid of the thought of "career" politicians. I guess back in the day serving in office was actually serving in office. You didn't make millions on doing speaking tours, writing books, scaring the public about the farce of global warming (while owning an investment firm, well 9.5% of one, that will already make a rich man richer) into going "green" or becoming "greener" whichever your poison is. Let's face it Obama is a Marxist and McCain is (think, think, what was the term....) a 'RINO' rebulican in name only... I do not know about all of you guys and gals but I feel like the media and big business chose for us "our candidates"; especially, Obama. This country goes through ALL OF THE MOTIONS OF GETTING RID OF SOCIALISM THROUGHOUT THE WORLD (by introducing "capitalism"), WHILE WE AS A NATION START HEADING INTO SOCIAL EVERYTHING. Hillary, as far as I knaow did not throw her delegates in with the marxist ideals of young obama, yet. Could she be planning to go to the DNC and turn her votes in and still make a bid? Don't know, she is still not my favorite vote for "CNC" of this country. She is as dirty as the second process at a waste water plant...

Whatever happened to the crazy guy that was a 'republican/libertarian' that was getting all of his money from online donations? He is (now) the only one that makes any sense...

Agendas, pork spending, scratch my back and I'll surely take care of you...

SOS our country is being run by a bunch of fools, people that could really give a crap about us as their constituents that are in the back pocket of big business and foreign countries

Cheers

VOTE FERRIS in Fall '08

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/20/2008 11:38 AM

I have some questions about how you calibrate your political spectrum, but that's not my real issue....

As I remember it, the US did not go 'through ALL OF THE MOTIONS OF GETTING RID OF SOCIALISM THROUGHOUT THE WORLD (by introducing "capitalism")'...we worked (at great cost and with considerable success) to rid the world of COMMUNISM. Most of our allies in this fight were the SOCIALIST countries of Europe.

The British, the Dutch, the French, and the other colonial powers had already introduced the world to capitalism. We continue that good work.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/21/2008 12:13 AM

You said We continue that good work, yes we do. But for the benefit of who?The countries that we are trying to help? The people of those countries themselves? Or big business here in the United States of America so that they can get a cheaper labor force? Let's leave the other countries out of this for a minute, k? This country was not "born, created, started" (or whatever metaphor you want to use) as a socialist country. It (the US) did not start off as a monarchy like our allies did; eventually, becoming social entities.

We have socialist Dems holding postiton in Washington (Bob Filner is one of our reps here in Sandy Eggo and a social dem). Talk of social medicine, "nationalizing oil" you name it, it seems that this country is heading that way and that really pisses me off.

I am sorry if you are someone that believes in socialism here in the US. I do not want to be down on your beliefs (if you believe in socialism) but it (to me and quite a few guys that I work with) is something that is scary to see happening. "Private" insurance is too expensive for the companies here in the nation for whatever reason (seems like they are looking at their profits vs. being more employee oriented... look no farther than Wal-mart for this... pay scales, lack of insurance coverage for employees). Breaking down the work force here, at least the union one, by sending jobs over seas (think of our pres. candidate McCain getting our military to buy airbus planes instead of Boeing mfg'd, I heard today that Korea is going to start building Naval ships [or was being looked at as a building force for more of our ships], there is a big ass highway in the works that will be going up from the mexican border through the middle of the US to the canadian border with railroad tracks tossed in for good measure. Auto manufacturers sending jobs over seas to get cheaper labor, whether or not it is the "whole" car or hust the parts used to put it together. Cell phone, computer and who knows what else in customer service positions have been "outsourced" ALL FOR THE SAKE OF SAVING A BUCK ... How come those savings are not passed on to us? I guess you can just call it a massive union busting movement... . But, and this is a big but, if the cost is dropped through outsourcing why are we still paying more and more?), so let's go ahead and let the government pick up the tab. The idea of the United States of America becoming a socialist country both makes me mad and sad.

Maybe we should go the other direction as a country... Smaller National government and bigger state presence. I am not a politician and I do not know the ramifications that would entail from having a smaller big gov't. I do know, though, that this whole thing brings me down ...

Sorry for my previous post (I know communism was the thing that we were getting rid of... "throughout the world" but by introducing capitalism we were helping to get rid of social regimes or am I wrong?), it was just ranting about a subject that I hope NEVER happens but sadly seems to be coming down the pike.

Cheers

Richard 'Ferris' Scherman

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/22/2008 10:24 PM

In the long run, if the rest of the world continues to develop open markets, we'll all be better off. In the short term however most of us are going to get screwed. The sources of our extreme wealth in this country are due as much to history and geography as they are to the fading American work ethic and ingenuity. As you say, many employers can no longer afford health insurance for their employees (I've been paying for my own, at about $1200.00 per month). Competition from low wage countries puts a big downward pressure on our wages. Few of us belong to unions anymore, so there is no effective voice speaking to our government that represents the interests of ordinary people. The cost of everything is going up, and worse yet we are running out of hops to make decent beer. I think we are pretty much in agreement with the description of the bind we are in. I also agree that the proper reaction to this situation is to be pissed.

What I don't understand is why you are so sure that it is the Socialists who are behind this. Most of our friends in the rest of the developed world don't have the problems you are describing. They don't have to worry about their health insurance. They've decided that the capitalist model, which works so well for making TVs, cars, food, etc., is ill-suited for providing medical services. They've also figured out that having an educated population is a benefit for all, and their young people are not drowning in student loans. I think we could agree that these are what you call 'socialist' countries.

And yet somehow, in spite of all the dire predictions for the last fifty years or so from our leaders, that Europe is just about to collapse under the weight of Socialism, it is their economies that are booming, their standard of living which is improving, while ours is staggering. To the extent that you could say that anyone enjoys paying taxes, I think most of the EU would rather have their system with national health care and free education, etc., than ours where we are all just a few paychecks from disaster, and at the mercy of heartless (and properly so) commercial interests. We in the US are not at the mercy of a creeping socialist plot. As we watch from the sidelines we are being kicked in the teeth by the mating dance between our government and powerful corporations. At least on my political science spectrum, this kind of arrangement falls closer to fascism than to socialism.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I own and run my own business, providing technical services and custom test equipment all over the world. I like capitalism, and capitalism has been fairly good to me. People in socialist countries also agree, and most of them in fact work at jobs in the capitalist economy. But apparently unlike you, I don't think that capitalism is the right system for everything.

Nor do I think that in our current situation with the enormous power of the multinational corporations, that this is a good time for 'limited government'. Government is currently a big part of the problem, but that's largely our fault for not being informed and involved as citizens. We keep electing the politicians who represent the interests of these huge corporations, because they promise to protect is form socialists and terrorists, gays and lesbians, from 'government regulation', and from pesky scientists. We keep electing politicians who tell us that government can't do anything right, and then once they are in office they proceed to prove their point. (Remember FEMA used to be very good at responding to disasters, but now the government is run by people who don't believe in governing, and so you get what we have now - intentionally incompetent government) But ultimately government is the only institution we have at our disposal to keep the corporations in check. The solution is to elect better people.

So that's what I think. I don't consider myself either a capitalist or a socialist. I think of myself as a traditional American Pragmatist. I believe in what works. I think both systems have their good points, and I don't think they are mutually exclusive (slippery slope arguments are almost always BS). The trick as I see it is to figure out which system is best for each field of endeavor.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/23/2008 9:12 AM

Johnfotl,

Once again, great post - I don't understand the off topic ratings. In a very civil and practicle tone, your words go to the heart of why we are seeing $4.00/gal gas, with the potential of even higher costs very likely in the near future. Corporate fascism (with a small f) has been a major factor to the situation we find ourselfs today. Hopefully the people of the USA will be able to see past the propaganda, from BOTH sides (democratic socialism and corporate fascism), and reach down to find that American pragmatism before it is too late. Instead of pointing fingers at, and vilifying the opposite political party, our leaders need to get down to business for the good of ALL the citizens - and all the CITIZENS need to realize that the free lunch program for everyone cannot be sustained.

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/23/2008 9:12 PM

John, I am a union electrician. I do not know... maybe the term "socialism" is just a lil' scary to me. Looking at how things seem to be running down hill in my sector of the work area, maybe I am just lashing out... Sorry ... I am seeing the corporate sector take more and more rights away from people in unions, union busting whatever the phrasing you want to put in there, it is going on. I see it at my level and it bothers me. On a federal level the non union (ABC, AGC etc) are trying to get the Davis-Bacon act repealed, on a local level here in California they are getting cities to become charter cities. Why? So they can get around the Davis-Bacon act, prevailing wage. For us in construction; whether union or not, this is a big problem. For us in the unions it allows for the open shops to be able to get into jobs that were only available to shops that were following the auspices of prevailing wage. Paying their employees a certain amount per hour, money going into a health and welfare system of some sort, having indentured apprentices in training programs that are ok'd by the state of Ca. i.e. it screws us big time. For the non union brothers it allows the shops to pay them what ever they want to pay them with out any set precedent, doesn't push for any training program (they will not need any apprentices if there is no prevailing wage law, huh?)... I am ranting and I know that this is going to get like a 100 off topic points but ...

Just trying to show you kinda where I am coming from...

Cheers and thanks John for your insights

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/24/2008 1:25 PM

Aren't Unions a form of Socialism?

A different form of the good ole boy network that is the government.

The problem as I see it is the legal precedants affording corporations the same legal right as individuals.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/24/2008 3:16 PM

Garthh,

I may be wrong but I believe if you do some digging you will find that practice goes back to English Common Law, right after the Magna Carta (when Feudalism was busy making a work-around) and thence to contract law, and thence (I believe) to Justice Black.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/24/2008 4:16 PM

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/santa_clara_vs_southern_pacific.html

This is what I'm talking about.

I think that businesses [fish & fungus too] should have rights & protection, not to the same level as individual people.

We should also change the tax code to level the playing field for companies based in the US.

We are already seeing a shift [insourcing], from the increased cost of energy & the weakened dollar, which will make local & regional manufacturing more competitive.

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/24/2008 8:18 PM

Yep,

It looks like the tail of the dog to me.

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#45
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Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/27/2008 12:21 AM

I posed this question to a few of my "more knowledgeable" (read OLDER) co workers and they said BS... It could be construed as the purest form (at local levels and on up) of democracy. One man one vote... that is how it is done in the IBEW. Can't speak for any of the others; although, I am sure that they are all the same thing. Don't let their desire to back dems fool you. Dems are supposed to be our "friends" but are right at home screwing us in almost the same way that the republicans do. I do not follow the unions ideas of the dems being the way to go, nor do I think that the GOP is the way to go... I would like to see an independent get into office and clean up Washington. Oh, and maybe our country as well

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/27/2008 2:33 AM

How is collective bargaining 1 man 1 vote?

Prevailing wage is the opposite of open markets, sounds a lot like price controls.

Repubs, dems Whats the difference both represent special interests!

We need proportional representation.

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#14
In reply to #3

Re: Fueling the USA's greatest ever irony?

06/10/2008 9:34 AM

Thank you for the info Dad - enjoy your weekend.

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#4

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/09/2008 9:42 AM

If you look at the supply/demand picture you see that things today aren't any different from how they when oil was $100.

The spike in oil prices is mostly due to the fall in the value of the dollar, the weak stock market, and the collapse of the real estate bubble. Investors are looking for large ROI, and oil futures are the place to be right now.

Politicians are part of the problem - deficit spending on the war and deregulation of investment markets, but the main problem is greed. Greedy buyers/brokers who destroyed the housing market, greedy investors running up the price of oil, greedy oil companies who won't spend their $100billion profits on new exploration or technology - because they have to give dividends to their greedy stock holders.

I'm hoping that the oil bubble will go the way of real estate and the dot.coms - and bust.

In the mean time - I'm patting myself on the back for making the decision to live close to where I work, and feeling sorry for my neighbors with their 100 mile round trip commutes.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 1:34 AM

You refer to a spike where it seems there is a series of spikes...all leading to a general, and permanent, net price increase, even if things go bust. You say that it's about ROI, but it could be just as much, if not much more, about hedging, as the family man's post about dark liquidity exchange markets suggests. This makes lots of sense to me...and I would guess that the very people (and institutions) capitalizing on tricking up oil prices (Arab princes, oil industry interests to some degree, the auto industry, and even state governments indirectly) are heavily invested and hedged in these liquidity trading hedge schemes.

As a person who spent many years living and soujourning all over Texas, I realize how boom-bust cycles are a recurrent feature, a fact of life, there. People in the industry live high during booms such as these, but they also pay a heavy price (especially in the west Texas oil fields) during busts...so on balance there is some "justice" in that. But with this use of unreported hedging arrangements to trick up prices ever higher (by trick up, I mean: not strictly commodity supply/demand market forces), and with the blind cooperation of the press (acting as unwitting spokespersons for those who are profiting most), it appears to me that the game will play out (even when the bust comes) with the hedgers keeping most of their gains and (after liquidating) having permanently increased prices (ROI on parked equity investments) to boot. Could the US goverment be complicit in this? Given its need for credit, and the the alternative prospect of rescuing domestic financial markets with massive bailouts...it would not surprise me.

Given the Houston metro area's horrendous traffic problem, even in the best of times, you are indeed fortunate to work close to home. I remember well how, as early as the '70s, that city was already in gridlock—a decade and more before the rest of the country. Living close to work was a relative thing in the metro area proper—a "commute" as short as three-to-five miles or so could entail up to an hour's drive time or more! That's after needing to shower again (in summer) just from walking to the car from your house's front door! (That's a joke...almost.)

I was also thinking about the coastal communities there as sea level rises, and as land subsides...but that's another discussion.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 1:45 AM

Ya wanna go there, huh? I just read a brief thing about how 'st. gore' owns something like 9.5% of a capital investment firm that is making him FILTHY RICH off of this global warming crappola. Go green and help Al get his monetary value up there with all of the other idiots who are making our lives more and more burdened by all of the excess crap that is called "going green"

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#22
In reply to #10

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/14/2008 12:46 AM

gore' owns something like 9.5% of a capital investment firm that is making him FILTHY RICH off of this global warming crappola.

He's filling the gap left by the free internet....

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 9:58 AM

Traffic is not that bad here, relatively speaking. Compared to Dallas, where I came from, it's almost sane. Houston has a great free market approach to towing that gets accidents cleared in record time, and the city is 93% covered in concrete, so it's not too hard to get around.

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#5

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 12:22 AM

I'm looking forward to the many innovative solutions which will be spawned by the recent and seemingly long lasting increase in energy costs. I believe American entrepreneurs will rise to the challenge by creating and introducing now products to combat the rising cost of energy that would have otherwise not been well received in the market place. This period of time, although challenging, may become, retrospectively, the beginning of a shift away from dependence on foreign oil and the start of a truly sustainable and renewable way of life. The glass is still at least half full.

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 1:49 AM

The glass is still at least half full.

Wouldn't the question be, half full of what? Of petroleum reserves, or of innovations and alternatives, sustainable or otherwise? And what of the glass itself? Must we be content with its always being half full because the glass (of demand) continues to grow and consume? Your thoughts about this? And, what role do you see governments (politicians) playing, if any?

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#12
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Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 2:59 AM

Wouldn't we all be better off if we concentrated on making synthetic crude using the FISCHER-TROPSCH process. It is old technology that the Germans used during the last two World Wars and during the days of Apartheid the South Africans used it because nobody would sell them any oil The product of this process will fit into the current refinery and distribution infrastructure. A few nuclear plants will provide electricity for the electrolysis of water to generate the hydrogen that is needed to upgrade the synthetic crude.

We Canadians don't mind selling you our synthetic crude and I think that you will find that we are trustworthy.

It is just time that we start making oil from coal at prices that people can afford

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#28
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Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/16/2008 10:44 PM

That is exactly what the whole world needs to do. By reducing the demand by producing synthetic gasoline from coal, the price of oil will drop or become stable. Unfortunately our stuck-in-the-mud politicians say it will take 10 yrs to do it so why even start? I say start now, then in 10 yrs we won't be in this same bind and saying "Why didn't we start 10 years ago? Oh, well, it will take 10 years so why start now?"

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#13

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 8:28 AM

I hate to drop this on you, BUT... Yes, we here in the States are paying at least $4 a gallon for gasoline, some places closer to $ 4.50. Diesel is between $4.50 and $ 5 a gallon. THIS PRICE is for gasoline from crude oil we paid $ 85 to $ 90 a bbl for!! When the $ 135 a bbl crude gets refined and into the pipeline, we anticipate as high as $ 6 a gallon for gasoline this summer! Our friends, the Saudis, having failed to bring down the U.S. via terrorist tactics have switched to an attack on our economy. Meanwhile the "Energy companies", aka Exxon-Mobil et al, are posting record profits. Many of the Free World's nations have been very lax at producing smaller hp vehicles, developing alternative energy sources, including sand oil and shale oil, fuels from biomass and so on. It's like waking up after the robbers have cleaned out your home and have already left. We're now waiting for the air lines to start shutting down.

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 3:48 PM

Gosh..! Seing like this call for a new set of controllers at some point somewhere. Hard to tell, but anyhow will be good stay working at alternatives in the meantime, I believe. Somehow it's sound like a joke such barrel$ deal$. Neutralizing the econo that way is really not so smart if that the goal, honestly, since everything may be relative and we're all in the same boat regardless. Best deal will be let the econo flow without such prices restrictions and get back to business as usual. I dont Know!

Technically in my modest opinion, globally, everyone will benefit having a barrel price reduction back to number 1, allowing the economy to flow at 'full throttle' back to business as usual. So more will benefit better all over down the road, No Brainer!

Un-Fortunatly the ones that are getting harm the most are those that have less, logically. Un-Believable. Alrigth then, Lord know best anyway. Good with the story-Allset Buddies I have to get back to the grind, see ya' later then. Nice deal then...

Go with the Flow,

MC

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#37
In reply to #13

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/23/2008 9:08 PM

"...the "Energy companies", aka Exxon-Mobil et al, are posting record profits." That is because too many people can only think in terms of $ of profit and not in terms of percentage of profit. If Exxon makes 12% profit when gasoline is at $2 per gallon and still makes 12% when it costs $4 then there is no excessive profit, even though the number of $ of profit have doubled. Bankers know this, since mortgage rates are generally the same for low and high cost houses and the total amounts in $ of interest paid can easily double. Some people cannot see that keeping the percent of profit the same is fair and that looking at the number of $ is not fair. They tend to be of the "hate the rich", politically leftist groups.

Now the "environmentalists" and Democrats and a few others who pander to them bemoan ethanol, which they once promoted and refuse to allow the US to produce more of its own oil. "It will not bring prices down this year or the next or the next, so why even start" is their silly excuse. Since starting will bring no immediate relief, why bother? If we never start, then prices will never go down.

Name one energy source large enough to power our civilization that is not opposed by some environmental group now or would not be opposed by them if built. There isn't one. "There's too much drivin' goin' on around heah!" is one attitude, because how can people be controlled if they can just go whenever they want. Smaller, low hp vehicles are suitable for some purposes, but families and working people want larger cars and in a free country no one should be able to dictate the size of their vehicle, with the exception that it must fit on the road and above a certain size may require a special license.

"We're now waiting for the air lines to start shutting down." No, air fares will have to reflect costs. Too often they try to compete by operating at a loss and none of them make any money, but some have deeper pockets. Government regulation of fares doesn't help either. Since most of the fuel is used in keeping the plane in the air, why not try the dirigible again? The Hindenburg burned because the cloth skin was highly flammable, not because the hydrogen bags caught fire. That was secondary to the skin, if it hadn't burned the H would have been fine. Technology has come a long way since then and even using hydrogen for lift is very safe. A dirigible is slower, but it can stay up without fuel and a plane can't. Weather forecasting is also better now. It might be a lot more economical too. Could even use the skin as a solar collector to run electric engines in the daytime and fueled engines for nights and emergencies.

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#16

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 2:59 PM

As has been noted here and in the half-dozen or so related threads at CR4, there are many causes for the dramatic rise in fuel prices. Some, such as the growth of China, India, and other emerging economies are good things (all people have the same right to strive for a good life) and in any case they are beyond our control. There are really very few things that we can do in the short term to ease this transition. We can learn to conserve in our personal and business lives, and we can learn to use better judgment in selecting our politicians. Politicians have played a big role in getting us into this mess, and will have to play a big role in getting us out. Since we are in the political season, I would like to offer the following:

  • Beware of politicians who promise to 'get government off our backs'. They are not so much interested in getting government off your back. The backs they care about belong to their clients (big oil, wall street brokers and bankers, insurance companies, real estate developers, pharmaceuticals and health care providers, military contractors, etc.), who need 'relief' from 'onerous regulations' so that they can have free access to our wallets and our government coffers. Many of our current problems are traceable to a series of asset bubbles (dot-com, real estate, crude oil), facilitated by elected politicians who 'deregulated' their clients. We have had almost a generation now to see how this works.
  • Beware of politicians who promise to cut your taxes to 'spur economic growth', or who warn you that their opponent will raise your taxes. Again, it is not your taxes they are concerned about (assuming you are an engineer, or the owner of a well run small business), but the taxes of their enormously wealthy clients. To begin with, the connection between low taxes and economic growth is not a 'law' of economics: it only makes sense in an idealized backwards looking high school economics textbook world. It only makes sense when a lack of capital is the main impediment to business investment (and job creation). But with our relatively high labor costs in the US, most of the money 'freed up' by lower taxes is not going into job-creating enterprises (at least not here). It goes instead into bidding up the prices of housing and fuel, and of course fine art and rare wines. It goes into investment in off-shore production. We have been witnesses to this nonsense for a few decades now. Instead of the promised growth we have experienced the illusion of economic prosperity, fueled almost entirely by the accumulation of staggering personal, business, and government debt.
  • Beware of politicians who promise 'no new taxes'. The implication here is that all current tax levels are either just right or too high. When you consider the nature of our legislative process this is a mathematical impossibility. Certainly some taxes are too high, and some are just about right, but some are too low. While it is a fundamental part of human nature to hate taxes, this emotional and over-simplified view is causing us real harm. Our state and local governments are in a serious cash crunch. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our education system is failing, and even necessary public safety programs are being cut.
  • Beware of politicians who promise that they will make you safe, and who insist that their opponents will not. This is childish nonsense. No one here gets out alive. We are the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are not a nation of authority-worshiping scared-of-the-dark bedwetters. Is the world a fair and wonderful place where all people can expect to get along? No, but that doesn't mean that those who warn us of danger and then promise to protect us have our interests at heart. Our history shows that politicians can and do use this argument to enrich their friends in industry, and to act out their own fantasies of military glory.

Alexis de Tocqueville noted that America is great because her people are good. We as citizens are failing our country. We all like to think of ourselves as 'good', but perhaps we are not as 'good' as the people of a great and powerful democracy need to be. We settle for emotional appeal instead of rational discussion. We settle for leaders who have no real interest in our well being. We settle for sales pitches that tell us that we will be safer driving a 6000 pound SUV to the market. We settle for leaders who tell us that treating the rest of the world like dirt under our fingernails will make us great, that killing tens of thousands of foreigners is a small price to pay for our own 'freedom' and 'safety'. We settle for leaders who preach class warfare of the rich and powerful against the rest of us, thinly disguised as economic theory.

We need new crop leaders if we are going to break this endless cycle of meaningless rhetoric and special interest government. We do not need leaders from the same bunch of crooks who profit from the mess they have created.

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#17
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Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/10/2008 3:05 PM

Maybe we're just stupid.

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/11/2008 8:07 AM

Johnfotl

A very well written and observant post! If the citizens of the good old USA don't wake up from their deep slumber, they will never get to the REM state, and the "American Dream" will soon be a memory of the past. Daydreaming is not going to get us back on track. Only a willingness to correct our mistakes, promote our "real" strengths and success, and use our resorces to make OUR "dreams" come true - the dreams that were once the beacon to the rest of the world to follow. With a great effort to achieve the impossible, we put a man on the moon 40 years ago. It's time for the country to get a good nights sleep, and wake up with new dreams - ones that will enable us to solve the challenges we are facing today!

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#25
In reply to #16

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/14/2008 10:22 PM

Very well put.

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#43
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Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/24/2008 10:03 PM

I agree, "Politicians have played a big role in getting us into this mess, and will have to play a big role in getting us out." However it will certainly not be by the Democrats and not very likely by Republicans either. One party consistently votes to ban new oil exploration in the US and coastal waters which could cut our oil imports by 20% and they also are "green" and for alternative fuels. The other candidate has finally gotten the message from the voters that they want us to produce more of our own oil. The causes of the high prices are more demand than supply, lack of refining capacity, speculators, greedy producers, lack of alternatives and environmental extremists.

1. There are onerous federal regulations. No intelligent person can deny that. There are also areas that need regulation. No intelligent person can deny that. Politicians exist to make regulations; the problem arises when they allow their hunger for votes, power and money to mess things up and over-regulate. It doesn't matter who the clients are, "big oil, wall street brokers and bankers, insurance companies, real estate developers, pharmaceuticals and health care providers, military contractors, etc." or big labor, big media, big Hollywood, environmental extremists, various cultural, ethnic or racial groups, politicized academics, etc., there are always politicians who will kiss their feet. It has been that way since politics was invented. I have seen it mucked up since Truman was president and history shows even more, so it was not all in this recent generation.

2. Taking less money out of your pocket means you have it and can decide how to spend it. Taxing corporations just makes prices go up. A company makes 3% selling its product for $2; demand drives the price up to $4 and the number of dollars made doubles. To a reasonable person that is just ordinary business, to those who hate the rich it is a windfall profit to be taxed. How is taxing supposed to lower prices? The thing is, it doesn't. Government spending is what makes the problem, especially when the spending is designed to get votes. Then comes the criticism of how people spend their money, as if they don't know how. Supposedly they spend it "bidding up the prices of housing and fuel, and of course fine art and rare wines." The prices of housing and fuel have nothing to do with low taxes and everything to do with irresponsible lending, speculation and the worldwide demand for fuel. I know it takes all I get just to pay bills and get food, repair my slowly deteriorating house and I have nothing left over for fine art or rare wines. The statement is insulting to the ordinary citizen. One political party loves taxing and spending more than the other and hates the idea of anyone getting rich, unless it is themselves.

3. "Beware of politicians who promise 'no new taxes'", because they cannot keep that promise. Situations change. Sometimes it is necessary to spend a bit more than usual. The average total percentage of taxes should not keep rising, because spending should not keep rising. There is far too much waste at every level of government. If there is any extra it has to be wasted, thrown away, used up or they will not get the same amount next year. A totally insane system, which guarantees that spending, will go up, since saving is punished. Be equally afraid of politicians who say we can tax ourselves into prosperity by taking money from the rich, the corporations, those who invest and provide the jobs for those who work. "From each according to his ability [to pay]; to each according to his need [for the other guys money]." An idea straight out of Marxist Communism, which describes our "progressive" tax system. Look up the "Fair Tax", a better system.

4. No politician can give you absolute safety; some may have policies that work better than others though. Both parties have those in them that would overly curtail freedom in the name of security. Now a sort of slap at the present president "Our history shows that politicians can and do use this argument to enrich their friends in industry, and to act out their own fantasies of military glory." I doubt Bush went into Iraq for glory or oil, but went because he thought Saddam's threats and attempts to hide things meant that there was danger there. Secondarily, it was to block Iran from the area and to oust a murdering thug from power. Some companies in the military supply business made money, because that is their business. All presidents have had personal contacts with the people who supply the military and they are not all greedy and corrupt ogres.

"Alexis de Tocqueville noted that America is great because her people are good." Yes, Americans are good and they take their freedom for granted. They often do not even know what rights and freedoms the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution give them, because our public schools have been dumbed down to be places for political indoctrination. Why else would one party be absolutely opposed to paying the same amount for every child's education no matter what school he went to, public [government] or private. That same party shamelessly uses emotion over rational thought in order to get votes. I agree that too often we settle for the least objectionable political leaders, who all too often have more interest in their own well being than ours. We allow our thoughts to be formed by a media, which has an agenda, rather than thinking ourselves. We know that big heavy cars are generally safer if they are engineered properly and we like the comfort and space to carry the family and their accoutrements on long trips or short. We get irritated at the nattering environmentalists who would be happy if we all lived in tiny homes and used almost no energy and rode bicycles everywhere. We believe leaders who tell us that free trade will make us rich while all our manufacturing jobs go overseas, the same leaders who are willing to support dictators and make nice with everyone in the hope that they won't kill us. Then we turn on the leaders who kill those who are trying to kill us, because we are unable to cope with anyone's death. Those who will not fight and perhaps die for their beliefs and principles of freedom shall die as slaves.

"We settle for leaders who preach class warfare of the rich and powerful against the rest of us, thinly disguised as economic theory." Yet only one party is greatly concerned about class, the rich and ensuring mathematical balances of races, sexes and ethnicity, which ensures the prolongation of discrimination on those bases.

"We need new crop leaders [in both major parties] if we are going to break this endless cycle of meaningless rhetoric and special interest government. We do not need leaders from the same bunch of crooks who profit from the mess they have created." Exactly! I would rather take one name at random from every phone book in the nation and have them run the nation than those professional politicians we have at every level of government. Power to the people, not to the politicians. I am also a strict Constitutionalist and a progressive Conservative.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/25/2008 12:12 AM

You said:

"We need new crop leaders [in both major parties] if we are going to break this endless cycle of meaningless rhetoric and special interest government. We do not need leaders from the same bunch of crooks who profit from the mess they have created." Exactly! I would rather take one name at random from every phone book in the nation and have them run the nation than those professional politicians we have at every level of government. Power to the people, not to the politicians. I am also a strict Constitutionalist and a progressive Conservative

And I say GA !

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#23

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/14/2008 1:06 AM

You will find this very interesting

My confusion is about the profits of oil company's. I've seen the graphic images of crude costs showing oil company profit per/gallon of gas being about $.12 per gallon of gas. This is the same figure for the past thirty years but only now does it equate to huge profits?

I doubt anyone would be punished in a meaningful way for wrong doing concerning price gouging etc., nothing like causing a person to live at minimum wage for ten or more years; that would be an effective deterrent...

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

06/14/2008 8:45 PM

Don't know that anyone could be punished either... it sure would be cool to know that the investment bankers and all those money grubbing people that keep raising the prices were taken out of the loop. Them and the FED and the rest of the governing people (types?) that are breaking this country of ours down. Oh, did I forget to mention big business and their corporate agenda? Oh... outsourcing was in a different thread the one about... corpoate outsourcing

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#54
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Re: Fueling the USA's Greatest Ever Irony?

08/28/2008 3:06 AM

Oil company profits have grown enormously in the last year, because extraction costs have changed little and oil prices are much higher. This is a simple consequence of market forces - demand has been strong, mainly from China and India, and supply is continuing to stagnate. Most of the money in oil is in getting it out of the ground: relatively small profits are made by refining and selling fuel.

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#47

What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

06/28/2008 6:47 AM

The piece below is from a newsletter sent me by a congressman. Identifying yourselves as Affirmative or Opposition, how might CR4 members debate Reprentative Dingell's bill if it came to the floor for debate?

Excerpt from newsletter, ....@ housnews.net

"Should Congress Mandate Higher Gas Prices?

"With 3rd District constituents paying almost $5 a gallon at the pump, different ideas have been suggested to the Congress.

"While I have supported increasing American energy exploration in order to lower gas prices, alongside long-term incentives for clean, alternative energy investment, others suggest mandating an even higher price for gasoline.

"Rep. John Dingell has suggested increasing gasoline taxes by 50-cents a gallon in order to reduce Americans' consumption of oil. With California's average gas price at $4.90, such a tax would put the price of gasoline well over $5 a gallon.

"Do you believe Congress should try to decrease the price of oil through American energy exploration or should Congress raise the price of oil further through regulation?"

[below are the yes/no opinion sampling questions]

Congress should work to decrease the price of oil...Y/N?

Congress should mandate even higher oil prices...Y/N?

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: What should politicians do? The Legislative Angle

06/28/2008 12:34 PM

The very nature of the question points out the disconnect between the haves, of whom the esteemed congressman is a member, and the have-nots of our present society.

The financial burden that the majority of the American public whom congress supposedly serve and whom they are supposedly drawn from are already on the brink, or beyond, of financial collapse.

They look at the mortgage scandal and think it was the greedy banks and mortgage companies at fault for it. I think they were only responding to a need. The American people have had to sell their collective souls to the devil just to survive this current financial era.

And now these idiots want to add even more burden. Where is their attention really focused? Not on the general plight of their constituents I'll wager. Rather it's on the opinions of the elitist snobs that represent the minority; who could care less if the price of a gallon of gas increases and people have to decide whether to buy a loaf of bread or the gas it takes to get to the store to buy it. Some choice, huh?

Then there's something a lot of us wonder about. WHY IS OUR INFRASTRUCTURE IN SUCH BAD SHAPE WHEN WE ARE PAYING SO MUCH IN TAXES? OUR ROADS SHOULD BE PAVED IN GOLD!

A good friend of mine owns a 6500 acre wheat ranch. With the good price of wheat he had hoped to make enough to improve his aged fleet of farm equipment but with his fuel bills topping $10,000.00 a month he will be lucky to break even, again.

Meanwhile, our congressmen and women sit on their highly paid deriers and dream up new and exciting ways to inflict pain on us.

I'd better stop here before I say something I'll really regret.

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#51
In reply to #48

Re: What should politicians do? The Legislative Angle

06/29/2008 6:17 PM

Hmmmmmm, and those legislative types make their high dollar(s) and then vote themselves a pay increase, huh? Having the ability to use loop holes to keep their money from being taxed, too much. Gotta make it legit...

I mean what next, seperate the classes farther and farther apart by giving more and more of our industrialized work away with "trade agreements" that help those elitist snobs, that you mentioned, and the creature that is big business to make more and more $$$$$$ while the middle class goes farther and farther down the tubes toward a position of upper lower class?

(Or how about st. gore flying aroud the world in his plane giving speeches on global warming... Isn't that going against the grain for someone who is so "concerned" for the US' and the worlds ability to go green. I mean couldn't he just do video conferencing?) I know that this has nothing to do with anything on this thread, just wanted to vent about how easy it is for our "elected officials" (not that gore is in office, can't deny though, that he has his cronies there going to bat for him) to pull the wool over our eyes? Global warming, terror threats, housing market scandals, banking scandals, miss read votes in election (2000 pres election), sometimes it seems that there really isn't any "real" news. Growing up, I was told to 'believe half of what you hear/see(this would be hearing and seeing in person) and none of what you read' to try and keep from being manipulated and having the wool pulled over my eyes... Now, more than ever, this seems to be the case...

Cheers

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

06/28/2008 8:04 PM

Note that a Democrat, "Rep. John Dingell has suggested increasing gasoline taxes by 50-cents a gallon in order to reduce Americans' consumption of oil." That is their typical solution to control peoples behavior. "There's too much drivin' goin' on around heah!!"

There is no way they care about the people and the cost of fuel. They want higher taxes so they can spend the money on government programs that will buy them votes. They kiss the feet of the most rabid environmental extremists for votes.

There is not one major source of power that is not opposed by some environmental group. They oppose hydroelectric, nuclear, coal, oil, gas, biofuels, solar power [on the scale needed], wind and tidal. There is no tax that a leftist Democrat does not love.

A Democrat Congress will not reduce the price of oil, but they should, instead they will mandate even higher prices to force people onto public transport and reduce our freedom to travel.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

06/29/2008 10:16 AM

There was a time when the advent of public transport was seen as a great gain in the freedom to travel. And as a great lowering of the cost of travel. In places where good public transport exists even today, many would not dream of giving up that kind of (butt and leg) freedom to sit in cars in gridlock.

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

06/29/2008 10:50 PM

There is a big difference between transport available for public use and government-run public transport. Government transport only works in large urban areas that are congested and restricted for most private transport. There are many people who live in cities and never leave them, possessing no private transportation. People in cities use the public system if it is cheaper and more convenient, even if they own a car.

The present push to increase fuel prices by taxes will mean fewer people will be able to own or operate their own vehicles. If they live outside of cities, how do they shop or get to work? Why. they will be forced to use government transport, which runs on the government schedule and the government routes. If the county bus doesn't run down their road then they walk, starve or move to the city and never again have the freedom of just going out to visit whenever and wherever they want.

"There was a time when the advent of public transport was seen as a great gain in the freedom to travel. And as a great lowering of the cost of travel." Yes, when we used horses and stagecoaches, feet and bicycles, the advent of government operated systems caused a gain in the ability to travel more at lower prices.

I have nothing against public transport, when it is run properly it can help many people get places, but I am against governmental actions that would tend to force people to use public transport. It is the purposeful reduction of freedom in order to make more people dependent on the government that I oppose. Any action by the government to make fuel more expensive is wrong.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

06/30/2008 12:21 AM

Working in construction, I get to see the effect of the jump in prices first hand. Luckily, I only live 10 miles away from the job. The majority of the guys working on the plant are coming 30, 40 and even 50 miles one way. Carpooling is the norm now , it is a sad day when people who "make a good living" (i.e. decent wage) can't afford to get to work because of the price of gas. Then you need to take into account the price of housing here in bright, sunny so cal. (the sunshine tax, or luxury tax some call it) and it combines to make it questionable how people can afford to live here (you know the people that are making minimum or right around there; although, section 8 housing is starting to be found more and more around town.)

Cheers

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#55
In reply to #53

Re: What should politicians do? The Legistlative Angle

08/28/2008 4:20 PM

Yes sir it! Housing section 8 are been freezing and in an eternal wait list since long. Unbelievable! Will be great if someone kick it in and make it work again. Why wait and prolong the agony? Nationwide it will be need more now than ever so I assume that at some point will need a booster to have 'back on business' on full throtle to catch up with thousands of people hang in there, I guess.

Well this will be a nice challenge for any oncoming adm. definetly. Let's wait for the best eventually down the road. I believe there are room to increase speed of service through such branch. Allset have a nice one all.

Housing Time,

MC

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