Locating Hidden Drains

Hello horace40

A simple way would be to blow compressed air down the pipe, and watch for results.

An simple alternative would be to connect to a hose, and run lots of water down that pipe.

Either fluid will have to exit somewhere.

Both methods are cheap, but wear overalls, facemask, gumboots, and carry an umbrella.

Kind Regards....

Or attach a horn in a bag to a stiff hose and push the hose as far down the pipe as possible! Now blow and listen to where the sound comes from!

Is there a "clean out plug" in the house's interior basement/crawlspace? If so, you could get a small remote-controlled toy car and mount an (underwater?) camera to it, drive it down the pipe and see where it goes. For cameras, here's one link, and here's another. For R/C cars, here's one.

If access can be gained to a rodding point somewhere, one way is to send a set of drain rods into the drain and see how far it goes. £25 from B&Q or Screwfix (usual disclaimers), perhaps? Strike a radius from the rodding point on the surface and a few educated guesses later, all should become clear. It would be a good investment to obviate the need to call out DynoRod (usual disclaimer) at some point in the future, perhaps?

Is there a part of the garden that is perpetually damp? If so, then it may be the soakaway from the tank, and the tank may be fairly close, as others have correctly indicated.

Are there any unusual earthworks in the garden (apart from that pile of rubbish and rubble)?

Is there anything shown on the title deeds, or the Local Authority's records?

Did the Surveyor spot it during the valuation exercise?

Does a neighbour know? The neighbour may have observed Mr. Stinky (usual disclaimer) when he came to extract the settled sludge last time.

Is clearing the rubble high-up on the tasks list? Who knows...

Water Divining is pretty cheap!

The house is over a 100 years old. No rodding eyes or inspection pits or traps (that we can find) for easy access.

From all the replies, it seems I need access at the house end, so I must dig up the concrete at the point where the down-pipe goes into the ground.

I was hoping for info on some sort of electronic listening device (dowsing sort of) that could track the sound of water flowing underground.

Thanks for now.

Actually, you may have hit upon something! Is the waste pipe cast iron? If so, surveyors use a form of metal detector specifically designed to locate steel (iron) pins that mark property boundaries, and they are very sensitive. I've used one myself that picked up an iron pin almost ten feet away.

Likewise, there are other underground locating devices that are less common, but nonetheless very sensitive, and those are used by people who bore under roads, etc., to track the end of the steerable drilling bit.

And, maybe a run-of-the-mill treasure hunter's metal detector will work. Waste pipes aren't generally very deep, and its size may be such that one of the cheap ones will work.

If it's terra cotta (clay pipe), then metal detectors probably won't work no matter how good they are. But, soil testing engineers use a few different methods to "look" into the ground, something akin to sonar, radar, and nuclear stuff. I can only imagine that they would be reluctant to loan you their equipment and would probably charge a small fortune to do it for you.

Sound of water running may also be a possibility. Earth does a fair job of dampening sound waves, but it doesn't completely reduce it to zero. Some type of hearing aid, such as a parabolic microphone or amplified Stethescope may actually let you hear running water. If the tank you're searching for is full, then you won't hear it falling any distance from the pipe which takes it there, so if you can hear water trickling through the pipe on the way, you should be able to track it until you can't hear it any longer.

Your sewer pipe is likely either cast iron or clay. Rent a "two box" magnetometer with carry handle and scan from the origin at the house foundation out to the septic tank or cistern. A minimal return of signals indicates you've probably got a clay pipe. If so, run copious amounts of water (by hose) down the pipe and scan again while the water's running. Give the water time to run its course to the pipe end before you scan. You'll find and be able to track it! Sort of like metal detecting for coins.

BTW, a perfed cast iron leach field will drive you nuts with signal return all over the place. If you get this, you _most_probably_ do not have a tank or cistern at the end.

(Also remember that a broken clay pipe may stop the magnetometer signal return before you reach the end of the line. The water will probably pool at the break.)

This is what I do on-the-job for pipe location. The magnetometer will give you both the pipe location and its depth.

Ralph

Hello babybear.

You are right in the strict sense about the word 'manhole' - but to quote you ...

".....Try looking as far away from your house but, still on your property. A cesspit is not something you want just outside your back door!..."

So I looked in an area well away from the house - and luckily found it. But by virture of first finding the iron cover - which was about 18" x 24".

We now have to find the route of the underground pipe - in theory a straight line from the down pipe at the house to the cesspit. We are ding this by digging a hole where we think the pipe is.

Hello horace40:

congrats on finding the cesspit!. I hope my info' was helpful.

I can almost say for certain the pipe will be in a direct straight line to your toilet outlet.

You did not say why you want to find it. Is it to empty it and maintain the pipes?

You should be able to look into the cesspit and see where the pipe enters. And the pipe should be laid directly onto the soil. There should be no concrete.

If the pipes are 'full' you can dig a shallow trench to the top of the pipe. Get one out and just poke the muck out. You can take a builders bucket and wash them if you like. Replace as they were and if any are broken you can replace with either unglazed pipe from a builders merchant or, cut two or three or, however many you want. I suggest replacing three or four of the original pipes, then put a glazed pipe in if you have to. The pipes are unglazed to allow liquids to leach out into the soil. Which is why the grass is always greener above the pipe.

What is the distance between the house and the cesspit? Just interested

keep us informed..............

stay safe

babybear

• The pipes are unglazed to allow liquids to leach out into the soil. Which is why the grass is always greener above the pipe.

Using unglazed pipes that are carrying human fecal matter is something that I would definitely not recommend and from memory is illegal in many parts of the world.

The problem is that any exposure to such waste is an almost guaranteed way to start an outbreak of dysentery or even cholera.

This is going back over 100 years but there was an outbreak of cholera in London that was ultimately traced back to water that was coming from an individual well. The story about how the specific well was located is interesting as it was the start of the science of epidemiology but that's another story.

The point that is important here is that the source of the contamination was ultimately traced back to sewer pipes that were improperly installed and were leaking raw untreated sewerage into the water table.

Human waste is really nasty stuff and needs to be treated with considerable care and attention to detail in order to prevent cross contamination. Having porous pipes carrying it are definitely something I would not recommend.

Now before somebody pipes up and comes out with

But the cesspit leaks into its surrounding water.

Yes, but the idea in a cesspit is to allow the natural fauna and flora in the waste break down the material and render it inert and incapable of carrying diseases like cholera. It also doesn't always work so when ever you do have cesspits in regular use you need to be extremely cautious about what happens to the water in the cesspit.

One thing that many people forget is that you should never use human effluent to irrigate food crops unless it has been specially treated with some really nasty bug killers. This is because it is possible for some of the nastier virus particles present in human effluent to be transferred to the crop and enter the food chain. This is called the fecal oral path and is the path diseases like cholera, dysentery, hepatitis A and a host of other nasty bugs travel to infect humans.

Another problem that you can have with porous pipes is roots invading and tearing you precious drainage system apart.

All in all I don't think it's a good idea to use porous pipes to carry human effulent.

Concur! Every word is true - plus, it's darn hard to find unglazed terra cotta pipe around these parts. Mind, I don't spend a whole lot of time searching for it, but I haven't seen it casually in years.

Hello masu:

in reply to specifically your very first sentence............

The pipe are unglazed to allow some of the liquid content to soak away before it runs into the cesspit. I do not make the rules or, neither am I making up the fact that unglazed pipe is used. maybe if glazed pipe was used, unless there was a large enough 'leach-bed' around the cesspit the cesspit area could get soaked and flooded.

Bear in mind a lot of the original cesspit's were put in to houses where they were either at the end of the sewer line, or along a lane where there was never a sewer line in the first place.

The mention of the infected well in London is true but it was a lot more than a 100 years ago. Cesspit's did not exist then. And, they can be placed in certain areas only now. Certainly nowhere near rivers and underground streams or natural wells. So there in no danger of fecal matter entering the water chain and therefore the drinking water. Just one more thing................I have never done it but, quite a lot of 'natural gardeners' save their fecal matter and 'wee'. They put wee directly on the garden and the fecal matter on a purpose built pit where it can break down over a year and then be spread on the land. I agree it should not go into streams etc. But, the stuff in fecal matter and wee is exactly what plants like, to grow. Which is why the grass is greener above a pipe line to a cesspit.

No insult intended OK?

stay safe

babybear

To babybear

The cesspit is brick-built. It is about 6' x 4' x 6' deep. The iron manhole cover is in a concrete slab over the pit. The incoming pipe is about 3' down the wall. That means we must dig down at least 3' outside the pit. This pit you will appreciate is nothing like anything you have previously described.

We have dug down 18" deep at a point bout 10' from the house (this was to avoid the concrete slab). No sign of the pipe, so the hole is now a trench. I assume we must did a bit deeper.

The pipe is earthenware and is not blocked. If it was, the sewage would fill the down-pipe at the house and soon flood the toilet. It doesn't. In any case, the water, when flushed eventually appears at the cesspit.

The reason we needed to find the cesspit was to see if it needed emptying. The reason for finding the existing pipe pipe is to add an intercept for an extra drain to a new toilet.

Hello horace40:

you seem to be getting there anyway! Well done.

Can you see the pipe entrance into the cesspit, and is it about three feet from the top of the cesspit? I do not know where you are but, as far as I know they have a small tanker type truck which sucks all the 'nice juicy stuff' from the cesspit. If you have the same truck system, I advise you do the same.

The pipe is deeper than I thought it would be. And I would check the brick build cesspit to see how 'sound' it is. You may need to dig a larger hole if you want or need to get a newer cesspit and the entrance hole to the cesspit may be a different level?

The pit you mention does sound smaller than ones I have dealt with. I think the modern cesspit's are metal covered in concrete and, are roughly a 6 foot cube. Actually they are round.

Just one point............it may be worth buying a narrow spade as the pipes are only sis inched wide?

If you can see they are not blocked, put wedge in the toilet cistern and run a hose down the toilet and check the flows into the cesspit. If it runs smoothly and the cesspit is sound there is no need to do anything to it. I cannot see why you said you had to dig the pipe up from this 'email' page, sorry.

Good luck

stay safe

babybear

My previous residence was a duplex with a total of eight people living there. We only had a septic tank. I believe that system is similar to your cesspit. I dreaded having to have the thing "pumped out". I had a few people recommend flushing yeast into the toilet to help break down the solids in the tank. I lived in that house for 12 years, and was told that it had not been pumped in many years before I moved in. I bought two packets of yeast every month. One in each toilet. I sold the place without ever having to clean it out. I read all the posts, but no one mentioned this. What has the rest of the collective minds here heard about this treatment?

G'day Bob,

Now that you mentioned I'm pretty sure I have heard of something similar being done, but I don't think they used yeast but rather some other bacteria that was more suitable. It was a long time ago and cesspits are now fairly uncommon in Australia unless you are out in the middle of no where. Mind you, most of Australia is in the middle of nowhere, it's just nobody ever goes there so no people means no human crap to get rid of.

Yeast works. There are also special bacterial formulations (like RidX) and enzyme solutions just for the purpose. Point being, if you have something in the mix that will break down the solids, the liquified results will drain out into the leach field as designed, and cleanouts are not necessary.

If you can force the water out of the toilet try forcing colored smoke by air pressure down the pipe there has to be a vent in the cesspit area with a bit of luck you should see somthing.

Garth CR4

Greetings.

Take two lengths of green ground wire 12 gage 24 inches long straightened.

Make a 90 degree bend so that you have 8 inch on the short side and 16 inch on the long side.

Take two pieces of 3/8 inside diameter plastic pipe 9 inches long.

Hold the plastic pipes vertical in each hand with the 8 inch end of the wire inside the pipes and the long pieces facing directly in front of you.

Walk back and forth slowly across the yard watching the wires.

When the wires start to move toward each other until they cross is how deep the water is. Where they cross is where the water is.

If the the wires don't cross but go the opposite away from each other then it is a large water spot.

You may have to let the water run into the line to be able to find the line and then the cess pool.

This was used to successfully find a massive water line leak that the City Utility crews couldn't find with their very expensive locating equipment.

Good Hunting.

Why such exacting dimensions? I have never noticed that it makes a difference. Nor have I noticed a difference between size of wire or material. However I have been dowsing for wires and drain pipes for about 30 odd years and it has ever failed me. At one time I was employed as the underground cable repairman with a cable TV company and later on finding buried faults in power cables was also part of my job. Although the companies in question provided me with many expensive pieces of equipment, dowsing often worked when the expensive equipment did not. The plastic tube sleeves is a good idea for a low friction holder. A lot of neophytes tend to grab the wires too tightly. Wire coat hangers work as well as expensive copper ground wire in my experience. I went looking for my own drain pipe and septic tank just last month. We moved here recently and there is no record of its location. Its about as low cost as you can get. If it doesn't work, not much except time is lost.

I always used soda straws as the holders, wire fits in w/o too much slop, and they are provided free of charge by every fast-food outlet in town. Also always had best results with wires of dissimilar metals, like brazing rod and a coat hanger. People may scoff, but I've found water pipes where metal detectors later located them to be, so my method was vindicated.

Can you elaborate on "best results" as opposed to lesser sucessful results? I believe you but am curious about the extent of change in results from using two similar metal wires. Never tried that myself.

Just seemed to be more sensitive. Picked up smaller pipes or underground streams of water than 2 ferrous or 2 non-ferrous rods could. Also better likely depth indication.

Enviroman wrote: Just seemed to be more sensitive. Picked up smaller pipes or underground streams of water than 2 ferrous or 2 non-ferrous rods could. Also better likely depth indication.

You might just have something there. As I said earlier I have been sucessfully dowsing since the early 1970's and often had to use that when my other equipment totally failed to identify the fault. For coaxial cable faults I had a Hewlett Packard TDR (time domain refletrometry) scope which could (sometimes) locate a fault to within inches. Also several other pieces of equipment. But at other times nothing worked. In municipal services you usually know exactly where the cable trench is located relative to the curb, but the fault could be anywhere along that trench line. Dowsing along the trench line would quite often give an indication in one place only. The body and arm orientation almost seemed to act like a dipole antenna. Approach the cable trench at right angles would give an indication when crossing the cable. If you then turned 90 degrees the wires would uncross again Now as I walked parallel with or on top of the trench line I would get an indication ( wires crossing by themselves) at one place only.

Diging at that spot got me to the cable fault. At other times i could find a cable in a place I was not expecting it. That appears to rule out the power of suggestion. I would love to know why and how it works.

Greetings.

The person needs a simple kis plan.

Short direct instructions with easily available materials.

Ground wire is readily available as is 3/8 plastic pipe from Lowes or Home Depot if you don't have it lying around.

The first time a plumber friend showed me this I was amazed. We found all of the water lines in 12 5 plexs in an afternoon.

Smegging hell not the wacky dousing thing again.

Dousing has been discredited scientifically so many time that I don't even bother to keep track any more.

More to the point, who was the dingbat that gave this post a good answer vote!

PS I've now countered the good vote with an off topic vote.

Yes Olympia.

But if you are tracing lines that are really small you need to tune so its more sensitive.

In such a case I would suggest 18 gage wire and sharper bends, say 75 degrees.

Incidentally, I have a Dousing Master's degree from Universal University, and am available if anybody finds themselves in a particularly difficult situation.

j.

Greetings.

Hey good information.

I'll try it.

Thanks.

As you have asked your question here you must be technically inclined and can be assured that all replies are the best info. available.

My only question is , if your new home is more than 100 years old , i would concider installing a proper septic system and not rely on a 100 year old cesspit that you cant find . ? I have been there and done that and a new system is the way to go .

If your toilet and/or drain pipes are anything other than copper or abs. you will need to refurbish all to specs. Old toilet drain pipes where cast iron and they need to be replaced asap. Have fun and check out the info. avaialable on the net .

Machine Head,

Where is it written, by what standard, do you assert that cast iron drain systems, if properly installed, need to be replaced?

Do you have any idea how many hundred or more year old houses in some of our old cities, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc., have cast iron pipe systems that, if properly installed when built, still function properly?

Indeed, on the occasions when I have had to make a modification, i.e., install a tee, sanitary wye, etc., I have welcomed finding cast iron because if you have to cut a section out to glue in an ABS fitting, or drill and saw out a hole to install a saddle fitting, such piping is inert, does not wiggle around, and, unlike old iron water pipe, does not spring a leak at every joint because threads are rusted out.

j.

Hello machine head:

I agree the sceptic tank (if there is one) will need renewing. But the other 'facts' you mention are not..........facts I mean.

GPS will last for 20 years. Cast iron will last for a 100 plus years. Which would you choose? If the iron pipe has not been disturbed it should be as good as new. So I could not disagree with your opinion more..........Sorry, but you are just not making any sense.

No offence meant at all, This is just my personal opinion.

stay safe

babybear

Thank you Babybear. That, regarding cast iron pipe, needed to be said.

j.

Hello Jack,

I was getting a little annoyed with the wrong assumption that the pipes to the cesspit were cast iron. I am more than a little peeved with another who claims it is against the law to use unglazed earthenware pipes to carry .........his phrase, "fecal matter" because is would not be hygienic (paraphrased that last bit). Well I have friends who save the pee and pour it directly onto their garden, and save their number 2's, rot it down on a compost heap and use that as well.

I do not know what the person who mentioned fecal matter as being dirty in some way was thinking. Most people spread horse, pig, and cow and chicken and pigeon manure on their gardens. Is that not fecal?

If it wasn't for 'fecal matter', otherwise known as Nitrogenous waste, most people would not be able to grow flowers and vegetables in their own back gardens.

I just wish some of the posters would let their intelligent thinking reach their fingers as they type

Take care Jack..............

stay safe

babybear

Hello horace40:

if you have grass over the ground between your house and the cesspit, cut it as normal. Then looking from a distance, (an upstairs window?) the line of pipe to the pit will make the grass grow quicker and greener. This may sound silly but I have worked on three renewed cesspit's and drainage and notices how the grass is a darker colour directly above the pipe. And the pipe is usually only 30 or 40 Cm's below the surface.

If as seems the case, you cannot see any grass for part of the path between. Can you see any patches of grass or vegetation which is nice and green over an area of about 30 Cm's. Just join the dots and it will give the line.

Cesspit's are put in open areas of meadow etc. So it is probably not in or under the shed you mention........

Do you need to know the line of the drainage to the cesspit or know where the cesspit is to empty it? The cesspit's I have worked on have a cover, a bit like a pan- lid about a metre across.

stay safe

babybear

If your pipe is metal (usually cast iron) you can use a metal detector. There are several commerical types available, and can be rented from equipment rental companies.

If the pipe is non-ferous (ie. clay), you can rent a radio frequency type of pipe locator. With this method, you attach a float to one end of a long wire and "flush" it down the pipe to your cesspool. The other end of the wire is connected to a low frequency transmitter. You would then walk around with the receiver until you receive a signal. The stronger the signal the closer you are to the wire in the pipe. Once you receive the signal you then walk in different directions from that point. The direction that has the strongest signal shows you which direction the pipe is going underground.

I have only used the industrial versions of these pipe locators, but have seen several "DIY" versions for small construction companies (which have limited depth capabilities versus the industrial versions that can reliably detect down to 75 ft).

Just so you're not feeling alone... we too have a 100y.o. house and nobody knows where the cesspit is. We've been here for three years, the previous owners for a while before that... & nobody knows where it all goes - never been emptied in living memory! I think the fairies at the bottom of the garden must have some kind of green power & compost business going on.

Check the building code for the years the was built. The tank or pit should be located within 10 ft of where the line exits the house. I used a long heavy steel pry bar to find ours. Then used a truck to pull the small access lid up on it's side. After a few hours of letting it air out I was able to look inside and see where the holes for the feild lines were and marked it with stakes.

Know where the lid is can be very important too. You need to know the age and condition of the tank lid. Recently 2 men were walking behind a business and fell in when an old lid gave way. The men both drown from exhaustion no one heard them screaming for help. It happens a lot espically in old homes that sewer lines and people forget the tank was ever there.

Hello dadw5boys:

10' from the house may be the law where you are. But, would you want a cesspit virtually next to your back door?

That is the reason why they are usually placed near the boundary or, upwards of 60' away if you have a large garden. Even at 60' that would be right in the centre of some large garden lawns!.................Hey the footballs gone............Oh, I know where it is.............It is in the cesspit............Wonder if they will ever play football again?

stay safe

babybear

We had similar problem in building wherein water supply pipe was embeded in flooring. We got new pipe line fixed exteranly to solve this location and maintenance problem for the water pipe.Now we can acess the pipe any time.

Thanks everybody. We have found the cesspit.

No single response gave a complete answer but a combination of the 'easiest' ideas pointed us in the right direction.

Basically this was to look for a manhole cover well away from the house (Babybear #13).

This meant clearing years of dense undergrowth from the garden (this had to be done anyway - so it was not a waste of time and effort - it just had to be done sooner rather than later).

Then banging the ground with the corner of the shovel (not a rod as such, but Jack Jersawitz #27 had the right idea)

And if unsuccessful, the next move was to try dowsing (OlympiaWA #11 & 24)(Elnav #23 & 26)(Enviroman #22 & 25). Tongue in cheek, I must admit.

And as a separate issue, we were planning to reroute the access to provide hard standing for extra cars (and a sludge bowser) – and the last thing we wanted was to find the ground collapsing into an unknown cesspit ((Dadw5boys #17).

Other responses gave solutions that were not favourable to our circumstances. Perhaps due to the brevity of my description of the problem.

Thanks again.

If you want to have a problem free cess pit try to get all the lines except the toliets running into French drains or gray water lines.

Cleaning products are a cesspools enemy.

Have not had a problem with mine in over 30 years . Espically since I got the kitchen sink drain out of the septic tank.

So what.

There must be a few tens of thousands of people that still belief the earth is flat. With your argument they would be right, e.g., the earth is flat because if they so perceive it, according to you they must be right.

That's not even a matter of science, just common sense. Belief does not prove a thing. Evidence does. Science begins with evidence, i.e., data, not a bunch of garbage based on personal subjective notions.

But then again you obviously are not convinced by science.

j.

G'day elnav

• "discredited scientifically" meaning what?

What I mean is the testing of the concept in a double blind scientifically based test. Here an example of how the test was performed.

1. A field was set up with various different types and sizes of pipes buried at various levels both with and without water in them.
2. The test then involved taking several so called successful dousers being asked to locate the hidden pipes in the field. The dousing process was then administered by scientists, and adjudicators that did not know where the pipes were buried. That's what the term double blind means, as both the adjudicators and test subjects do not know what is being tested.
3. The results were then collated.

So, what do you think the result was?

None, not one, zilch, zip, zero of the so called successful dousers managed to produce results that were better than what would be seen with pure random chance.

• That the scientific brains could not explain it so therefore it can't possibly exist.

Nobody said anything about science not being able to explain how it works because it doesn't work so there is nothing to explain.

Now this type of double blind test has been performed many times and as far as I know nobody has ever produced results that were better than chance.

If you have a reference to a credible scientific double blind test that shows dousing does actually work then I would appreciate you providing a link to it.

Now, before anybody else pipes up about science proving it doesn't work, it's not the job of science to disprove a claim, rather it's the responsibility of the claimant to prove that it does work by carrying out double blind test like the one I described. However, and unfortunately for the dousers I have never seen or heard of such a test proving that it works.

PS: If you can get it to work then I would recommend you contact James Randy. He is offering US$1,000,000.⁰⁰ to anybody that can show something like dousing works. It could be the easiest million you ever made and I wish you luck, but the prize has been there for decades and so far nobody has ever been able to claim it.

MASU wrote: it's the responsibility of the claimant to prove that it does work by carrying out double blind test like the one I described.

In my work I did not have time to set up an elaborate double blind test.

My question therefore was, what is the explanation of how I was able to find the cables or cable faults when my scientific equipment failed. The proof of sucess was in finding the fault not the exact methodology. Maybe its intuition or some sixth sense.

Posibly the dowser gets stressed out by all the scientific controls. I don't know. I was taught by an old timer. I figured for sure he was trying to play a prank on a young guy like me at the time. Despite my scepticism it worked for me. Why?? And I have been able to duplicate such results many times since then.

Is there any explanation of how a set of bent wires suddenly swing and cross themselves. I have tried to deliberately swing the rods with little success. To make them swing takes a lot more hand twist than is possible when you are holding them steady and braced against your chest. Likewise it takes a lot of hand twisting to prevent them from swinging. I have also tried to do this blind folded as a preventative to working from visual clues. Same results. The wires definitely swing at one given point and nowhere else. So what is the scientific explanation of the observed result of the wires crossing? Coincidence??

.

If you were not so busy waving that feudal sword around perhaps you would recognize you ain't the universe of possibilities.

When the universe of possibilities is factored in, and the massive failures dominate, then you are the freak both for the sword and the alleged dowser hit.

And in case you find my remarks insulting perhaps you ought to realize that to those of us who know some science your remarks are insulting.

j.

• In my work I did not have time to set up an elaborate double blind test.

In that case then you can not claim that it works as you have not shown that it does to any level of certainty. All you have is anecdotal evidence.

Science can't explain everything but what it can do is describe an event, occurrence or phenomenon using scientific parameters and tests.

For example, we don't know what causes gravity or even what it is, but we can define it and calculate its effects with great accuracy. That's a rational scientific explanation of a phenomenon that we do not fully understand.

All you have done is claim that it works for you therefore it must be true and that just anecdotal evidence rather than a scientific evidence.

If you wish to clam that it works then you have to do the double blind testing that such a claim requires. Until then it can only be classes as an unknown.

• So what is the scientific explanation of the observed result of the wires crossing?

As I have stated, all that can be claimed is that it is an unknown and until there is proper scientific testing carried out then that's all that it can be.

By the way, since in every other case when double blind testing has taken place no observable effect has been seen I would hazard to guess that it will be the same with you. As to what is causing the response, I have no idea but if it were a defined and repeatable phenomenon then given time I'm fairly confident it could be explained. But and this is a really big but, you must have a defined and repeatable test otherwise you are pissing into the wind.

In the interim, if you are relying on such anecdotal evidence and using it as an engineer then you are playing with fire as you don't know if it rally is working or not.

Hello masu,

I understand what double blind means with ref' to drugs, as I take so many and, have also been in a couple of tests. It is just the double blind dowsing test, I could not see how it would be set up.

Did you see my post here where the three dowsers were blindfolded?

stay safe

babybear

• Did you see my post here where the three dowsers were blindfolded?

Yes I did. However, it isn't a double blind test unless both the people doing the dousing as well as the ones documenting and supervising the experiment both do not know where the pipes being doused are.

The double blind part refers to the people testing and people being tested and is specifically designed to remove any sort of feedback whether it's intentional or unintentional.

A classic example of why you need to use a double blind test was the owner that claimed his horse could do simple arithmetic calculations. He would ask the horse something like

"What is the sum of three and five?"

The horse would then respond by stamping its hoof on the ground eight times.

However, whenever the owner was removed from the equation the horse was as dumb as any other horse and couldn't give a answer. Detailed analysis revealed that the horse was responding to the owners body language and was ceasing the stamping when the owner started to go for the reward it was given for a correct answer.

That's one example of why you need a double blind test and I'm not saying that it is what is happening with dousing.

However, it's interesting that so far all the reports I have seen where a double blind test on dousing has been performed it has failed miserably and produced results that were no better than random chance.

If you have a reference to a double blind test on dousing that shows otherwise I would be interested in seeing it.

In the interim, since the all the scientifically supervised double blind tests of dousing to date have failed what conclusion would you draw?

Hello masu,

I thank you for the extra explanation. What I described was a kind of 'half blind' test?

stay safe

babybear

Double blind tests can be extremely difficult to set up. If you are not very careful it's easy to end up with contaminated results that are not only meaningless and a waste of time, but may send any future work and research off in the wrong direction and thus waste even more time, effort and money.

Hello elnav:

how are you doing?

I am not a believer or a believer.

Is it possible you could put a photo of the dowsing rods on and explain how to do it?

I mean start your own question and thread. If say a hundred or more people find it positive and can prove it is so, by perhaps videos etc, then it is going to make for a really interesting post. Don't you think?

I also think the 'scientists' writing in should define a 'double blind test'.

I have seen it done on TV but, never 'live'. And I have not tried it myself. Partly because I do not know what to do, how to hold them etc.

stay safe

babybear

You could try a divining rod or you could call the local plumber, they usually have an electronic device that hey can run down the pipe and it sends out a signal that they can pick up with a handheld receiver.

Hello horace40:

just a point or two........................I did not say to look for a ''manhole'.

The top of a cesspit, or the ones I have installed are a domed shape and, the 'lid' doesn't look like a manhole. The cover itself is usually at least a metre and sometimes larger across and, really does resemble a very large pan lid. Not a flat heavy drain entry cover. A drain entry cover is often made very heavy because they are often on a path or roadway which is likely to get used by heavy trucks etc, so they have to be solid.

As I have said the cesspit's I know of are at the bottom most boundary, farthest away from the house and the top is about level with the grass, maybe 6 inches above.The pipe or pipe lengths leading to it are only a foot or a little more below the surface and, the vegetation directly above really does look a darker more lush green. These pipes are always unglazed earthenware/pottery

stay safe

babybear

LAWN SPRINKLER CONTRANCTORS USUALY HAVE GOOD TONER TO LOCATE UNDERGROUND WIRES.IT SHULD WORK UNDER SOFT SOIL BUT I'M NOT SHORE FOR UNDER CONCRETE.2ND WAY IS WITH LISTENING DEVICE OUTSIDE AND HAVE HELP TO BANG ON PIPE.

GOOD LUCK