Concrete Tanks for Brewing

Those are some 'king enormous brew tanks! Why so large?

If making something for human consumption, then no, concrete and brick are non-starters. If the tank were made in these materials, how on earth would it be kept biologically clean enough to supply the end-user (rhetorical question)? Most industrial-scale brewing is done in equipment having highly-polished stainless steel surfaces, with clean-in-place facilities in the vessels being very common.

Concrete is used for open-topped tanks in the water supply industries, usually in connection with treated water that has a high level of chlorine added; as the water progresses down the distribution system the spot chlorine concentrations fall back with distance. At the concrete tank end, it tastes blummin' awful. Further, the chlorine would kill off the yeasts needed for brewing.

Glass demi-johns are very popular in wine home-brewing, and PVC for beer. Pre-sterilisation of all equipment is paramount if a wholesome product is required at the end of the brewing operation.

So, why not go for plastic vessels of smaller capacity. How about the 1m³ carboy? Once the initial prototype were successful, scale-up facilities could match the product demand....

Does that help?

Those are some 'king enormous brew tanks! Why so large?

The market study results give a required yearly capacity of more than 9 million liters. Of course it will be scaled up in stages up to that output, but the customer wants to see the final picture in the engineering project.

where the competition?

or are you going to corner the market

It is supposed to cover a fraction of the South American market.

With that kind of investment and output. might be a good idea to have a pilot plant to test the quality and repeatibility of batches with trying something new with brewing, such as the tanks.

Yes, but in meanwhile I have to give the customer some prices and technical arguments on each idea. Currently the tanks are the most expensive part of the project.

OK. Here's an argument for keeping the individual tanks small. Imagine the production loss should a single batch go bad due to, oh, biological contamination. In a small tank amongst a suite of small tanks, the loss is minor and recovery relatively simple. In a large tank, perhaps the only tank, the impact is going to be much greater.

Is there a way of making the process continuous, rather than batch? Instead of a suite of tanks, could it take place in a suite of pipes instead?

with that kind of volume, it may be a good investment in stainless to, but by the time for contruction, stainless price may have increase by 50%.

That'll be quite a report you have on your hands.

Good Luck

I think you could, however, you'd have to line them with a smooth hard surface. Perhaps fiberglass, or epoxy. As a home-brewer, I've learned that cleanliness is paramount. Brewers go to great lengths to sterilize their equipment. Any contamination will ruin your brew.

Calcium, Iron and Magnesium are many orders of magnitude more soluble in wine than water, because of chelation effects and buffered acidity. So, you would dissolve the concrete and corrode the reinforcing steel in the tank much more rapidly than if it stored water. Therefore you would need to coat the concrete tank to protect it from the wine. Some sort of epoxy or hdpe might be viable.

In brining operations they use concrete, and epoxy seal coating. Maintenance could be rather high. I also do not how the brew would react with the epoxy.

I can not give you a difinite answer, but if you like I can give you a contact from a manufacture of these tanks, that could.

phoenix911

As a longtime brewer & consumer of hb, using food grade polyethelene contain ers- sterilisation is simple- after mting the nectar into glass botts or s/s keg, & using a brush to clean the residue off the inside of the fermenter, simply use a weak solution of sodium metabisulphite in the bottom- seal up & leave for a period( the gas sulpher dioxide is given off & is toxic to living organisms)- mt out & away you go with next brew- I have only ever had contamination 3 times with white flower of wine(a white coating on the top of the brew)- BOTTLE AS NORMAL then place botts in sun- white coating dissolves- brew tastes ok. My fermenters are about 22 years old, with cracks inside, but not all the way thru. the contamination was due to carelessness on my part those few times. As to s/s-eg kegs- simply boil a kettle of water, pour in, seal up, shake & leave for 1/2 hour- done!.

I used to use plastic containers to make home brew, but plastic is easy to scratch, and these scratches can harbor bacteria, (they love wort). I've gone to glass, and haven't had a problem since.

Well, my idea is masonry tanks with a blindex glass finishing in the inside.

You know Africans use pottery pots, big in some sense for fermenting their Palm wine with zymomonas mobilis, a kind of bacteria. This is a rather unique device in that even in the heat of Africa, they keep the wine cool and aging gracefully.

No infections either over the years that I know of African new mothers drinking the wine from the clay or pottery pot; but then I am not a doctor so who knows if the wine from the pot and then through mothers' breast milk, what kills the Africans.

You may want to try that though. Those are usually inexpensive, and I believe that you would be opening up a market for Uruquay as well.

By the way, if you joined CR4 to meet women then I must say you have been engaging in the wrong conversation. You should start conversations that will interest women; and I am all for it.

It is my understanding that this is for commercial high volume production. Some materials such as glass and ceramics won't have the durability for a long production life you would see with stainless steel. As glass and ceramics are brittle and subject to cracking from physical damage, what is the life of the vessel, and What is the maintence and repair going to cost? Additionally, commercial processes tend to use stronger disinfection techniques than say the typical african mother, so you should consider the chemicals and temperature changes involved in disinfecting the vessels between batches and how the vessels will perform under repreated disinfection processes. Pottery will adsorb wine, so i am not sure it would be deemed suitable for a large scale commercial facility. Also, glass and pottery will desorb metals in to solutions in contact, so you have to be careful about the specific material used. Also, what special measures, and associated costs, that would need to be implemented regarding the different material proposed, special handling with a great amount of care, special treatements of vessels as part of celaning and disinfection, special structural features, etc...

Gussosa.

1) The women that i have met on CR4 have been great to chat with but greatly out numbered by the guys.

2) the way that I would "intelligently manage the risk" is to A)quote stainless steel technology, price it now, at market price, tied to index of chromium and nickel and published surcharges. B) Estimate the amount of stainless steel required per vessel, at that vessels gallonage,(literage, I guess Most of the world is using litres)...So that the cost additions if the market goes up can be input into the business plan to determine optimum capacity for the available build funds. C) the contractor could also purchase an option on either the stainless steel, or the chromium and nickel futures to cover the upside risk...

Using non stainless tanks puts the entire investment at risk...

Thats alot of sake for South america.

milo

I strongly suggest that you hire a brew-master. Selection of tank material, and the fermentation process, is only a piece of the equation.

Brewing is divided into 7 steps: mashing, lautering, boiling, fermenting, conditioning, filtering, and filling.

What are your plans for these other steps?

Even modest micro-breweries spend millions for equipment, and almost all of it is SS.

A quick overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing

Just Brain Storming;

Are you familiar with concrete form construction? Do you know exactly how to do it, so that your work is accurate to within 1/8 of an inch. If not, They have steel forms that you can buy or rent. The steel reinforcing is very critical for quantity and quality workmanship. The footings and slab will also need steel reinforcing and also anchor the walls and ceiling. This will have to be engineered to make absolutely sure you don't get any cracks. I recommend a concrete hardener, and strength increasing additive like Anti-Hydro that will also make the concrete almost water proof. Find it on the internet. The inside of the tank has to be absolutley smooth. All of the inside surfaces would have to be lined with stainless steel. All of the fittings have to be sealed, no leaks. You also have to consider expansion. You may consider rubber linning the inside of the concrete to cushion the stailess steel. You can buy it in rolls with an adhesive on one side. Plus a lot more things have to be done. Do you see, this is a major undertaking and the total cost in labor and materials is unpredictable with 100% satisfaction and dependability not guaranteed. They used to use redwood tanks in the Napa Valley with strap steel rings holding them together. You still need the clean out openings etc. Doing it this way is probably a lost art. All the pieces have to be tapered and I don't think the quality of wood required is available. What other wood could you substitute? Good Luck

The only you could use those tanks would be to apply a heavey coat of a liquid celllouse that wouls act as a blocking agent but since it is a water based materail you would have to test the tanks for how fast the celllouse would degrade with beer , wone, or higher octane brews.

Just a thought and I could be wrong.

The Cellouse I am speaking of is the same used in American Cheese it is like a liquid water based plastic.

What is cellouse, is it something derived from cellulose, like cellulose acetate or something. Cellulose acetate is susceptible to degradation when exposed to organic compounds.

Look at it this way. Stainless steel tanks are the best choice for a number of reasons including, most of all, customer safety. If you were going to operate a small "mom and pop" winery, I could see the initial cost being a problem. Wooden barrels would be suitable. But you are not. You plan to operate a large scale commercial brewery/winery. If your plan is solid and you have confidence that you will make it work, in five years the initial cost will seem irrelevant and you will have equipment designed for the purpose (fittings, valves, transfer hose ports, cleaning systems, etc.). It sounded like you have a customer that you will be partnering with. Maybe your agreement with them could include a loan or splitting the cost to get you started with better equipment, hence a better product. Since you plan to start small and grow, the first couple of tanks could be subsidized. After that you should have enough cash flow to go first class.

Hi gussosa,

Yes you can, but only if you tile the inside of the brewing tanks with glazed tiles!!!

Here in the UK we have a number of breweries who use these old fashioned tanks for brewing beer, my uncle who owns a victorian brewery is still using the old tiles tanks.

Spencer.

of course then the grout between the tile becomes an issue. Also, tiles crack or pop out under very minor movements of the structure, so design to minimize movements in the structure of the tank, and possible shutdown, replacement and maintenance should be considered.

For the brew (fermentation) tanks, temperature control is much more important than in the aging tanks. Maintaining temperature is also much more difficult in large tanks. You might consider ceramic lined steel tanks as well. If all of the tanks you list above are for aging only then as long as you can line the concrete with a material that protect the product from contamination as well as not change the flavor of the product then you should be fine.

I would not use concrete for any of the other parts of the brewing process, but since aging is the longest part of the process by far, it's natural that they would need to be the largest. Keep in mind though that if a tank becomes contaminated then you would need to dump the entire tank and a large tank represents a large percentage of your annual production. Another consideration is that you will be mixing many fermentation batches into the same aging tank and the final product may be unpredictable.

NO! TMF

Where on earth are you located? If you are in a high risk area where you have drive by shootings with an AK47, you may need a concrete tank around your stainless steel tank to protect it. Just kidding. Is there such a thing as spraying molten glass; glass lining inside of a bunker type tank?? We spray paint, why not glass?

Hello Gussosa,

I have to agree with TOMUCHFUN

NO ! - would be my first answer too.

As the owner of a new family farm winery in Georgia, USA I can say that its hard enough to get someone to drink any off brand what ever, so consider carefully the quality of your product and if that means anything to you for the future of sales - Well your most likely going to go with stainless; then perhaps Oak barrel when required and perhaps a few plastic containers to do the very tempory holding during the days run.

Bottoms Up & Cheers,

Joe

Here is a perfect example. Have you heard of 2 Buck Chuck in the Napa Valley. He liquidated his wine to Trader Joe's because he needed cash desperately. He just made the sale, and then received notification that his wines had won numerous awards. Could not have happened to a better person; he shot blue herons for fishing in his ponds.

Example of what?

perfect example of what

perfect example of a bad answer??

I read it to mean that if you do break the bank then you will not be desperate as to sell your winery under duress, and can wait for the intangible assets to convert into tangible assets.

Then, I could be wrong, just as well.

Oh ok, I was interpreting it in context of the post it was linked to regarding planning in reference to the quality of the product proposed. I was assuming it had something to do with a producer not understanding the quality of his product and selling it substantially under market value because of his lack of understanding of the value of his product and its perceived quality. Therefore the producer thinks his product isn't worth selling as the returns on investments are not there, when in fact he just did not perform hs due diligence and research the real market value of his product.

He went Belly Up - lost everything and ended up living in poverty.

I, too concur, NO

There are basically two categories of questions here, (and thankfully here the OP made it clear what he was doing from the start).

Let's use this topic for an example. If a guy wants to set up an operation in his shed, then the answers will be trying to figure out how he can do this without breaking the back. In other words, he's in a position to take some chances.

A commercial operation is a completely different matter, no doubt, using other peoples money. You have to come up with a plan for a reasonably good chance for success. This is no place to cut corners, you have to use proven technology. And I strongly suggest that you hire someone that's done it before. In my personal experience, a consultant, expert in his field, is worth his weight in gold.

So, do it right the first time, even if you have to scale back a little.

RIGHT ON

Hey! why don't we get right to the point! The ancients died from lead poisoning from drinking from lead laced containers and making their wine in earthen containers that also contained lead. For get about it. The merry would be spirits brewer needs a little more education before he wipes out his family and friends.

TMF

That remark was hitting below the belt. The man was only seeking help.

Look. I was not swinging at the original poster, However I chose to address the responders who seem to be attempting to find a way to assist him in the act of wasting his time and risking the health and welfare of himself and others.

It is simply a bad off the wall/out of the box idea.

TMF

Actually probably very few ancients died of lead poisoning, but it did likely adversely effect their mental acuity. The problem would be in the regulations set by the local authorities. Lead is deemed a hazard more because of the perceived impact on children's mental development. This perception drives the lead MCLs in some countries to be much lower then lethal exposure limits. Since consumption by children of any significant volume is unlikely, there may be an argument for higher lead limits, but it is unlikely any consumers would be paying a premium for a product that is identified as potentially permanently adversely impacting their capacity to think.

This is in answer to the two who don't read for meaning. Georgia Says "it is hard enough to get someone to drink any brand what ever, so consider carefully the quality of your product and if that means anything to you for the future sales" Quality is of vital importance and a quality reputation is vital to establish if you want top prices for your product and be sold out.

I you have less than average quality it is not good for future sales. 2 Buck Chuck bottles retailed for $2 per bottle and he had to liquidate thousand of cases. Georgia Adobe is 100% correct in what he said.

When you people read an article, don't approach reading it with tunnel vision, and then make childish remarks to try to prove your intelligence. Go back to picking your noses.

I thought they said it won awards, indicating it was a quality product, but the owner was unaware of the awards until after he had sold. $2 a bottle is not good wine, that is about what Gallo box wines retail for. And, actually it is not necessarily quality as much as the perception of eliteness and presumed quality that drives the wine markets. You must create an image to sell the product, realizing most buyers could not tell the difference between your product and a similar type of a much cheaper mass produced product, in a blind taste test. The image of quality is important, though in wine, the image of eliteness is more important.

He had to liquidate because he was broke.

Pick noses, eh?

did it ever occur to you that if so many people did not get what you wrote then perhaps you should try to be more lucid in the future because the fault is really yours and all yours?

You may want to think about that!

In Peru they make Chicha which tastes so bad maybe it is held in cement vessels.

Up here they call that kind of drink "GUT ROT".

Wow, in the US we use a very similar name, "Rot gut", interesting.

Hi. I am gussosa, the OP.

Yes, conducting a research on the effects of glazed tiles (for example) in the sake is the way to go, but before that I should have some basic idea. I believe that, as far as I can control the composition of the ceramics to assure the lack of any poisonous metals, I have nothing to fear. However, the first thing to do is to find out about previous experiences in the subject. That's exactly what I am doing.

Plastic is another idea, but I still couldn't find a manufacturer for tanks that large, not even importing them.

Currently the cost of the tanks is critical, risking the whole project. It could look better making the expansions more moderate and slower, but banks ask for a plan on 10 years for the life of the company. So we have to at least present something affordable and switch to SS later when the cash starts flowing in.

Hi Gussosa,

You Said: "the first thing to do is to find out about previous experiences in the subject "

Your right and If history records sake production over the last 6800 years or so and 14000+ known varieties then oak barrels for production and holding use is where you might should look.

If you can hire or learn the art of cooperage, you have 1 additional product not to buy, except in its basic least expensive form and the over production can always be sold , as every wine maker of a the smaller status, has to buy their barrels. This is a expense to add to your overall production cost but progressively . This business does require deep pockets to cover all phases of the operation.

Check out http://www.winebusiness.com/UsedBarrels/?ref=dn they have a offering daily of new & used barrels and talent is often listed & found within that site and other wine making circles.

Best Of Luck,

Joe

Large Oak barrels are definitely the way to go for some smaller volume commercial products of very high quality. Probably not suitable for large capacity production.

If the project is at risk because of tank costs then consider scaling down to reduce the risk, and build up capacity once a level of confidence has been established in the process!

I'm sure Gussosa summary alone as well as the report would be quite extensive.

I believe his conclusion should be rather straight forward.

Yes, I need to present something definite.

Scaling up from a small start would be the reasonable thing to do, but the government promotion agencies and the banks ask us for a fast growing company, so instead of presenting a 30 years plan, we have to present a 10 years plan.

I will present the options to my customer, but you already convinced me of sticking to SS. I don't think there is a carpenter in Uruguay to whom I could trust to make the oak barrels. And we better leave the experiments for the day when we start swimming in cash.

Now I shall leave it to the accountant to figure out a way to make numbers look better.

So the answer, which we use in the design of water and waste water treatment facilities, is to design the permanent fixed structures with enough capacity to install additional treatment units. I have seen the similar staging of facilities process done on an ethanol plant development i was involved with in Madera. You plant and build the concrete fixed structures, foundations, permanent piping, etc.. to eventually connect to additional tanks, and stage the installation of the tanks and local non-fixed ancillary components to be installed as the facilities production demands grow. This would mean you could use multiple smaller tanks, have some built in redundancies and reduce production risks. You can grow fast and still stage the growth if the facility is designed properly to readily accomodate that increase in production capacity. something else to consider its the installation of the additional components, they support structures and facilities must be designed to allow the importation of new equipement and installation, without much disruption of existing facilities (though this should already have been considered for potential repair/replacements). At this point you might evaluate how much supporting structure should be inplace to expedite installation as needed with minimal impact to existing facilities, and remain cost effective.

You need non reactive surfaces for the liquid to be in:

well said. milo

GA Guy, experience always trumps.

Tanks for aging batches of SAKI. I presume that the SAKI is already fermented and the "organic" matter is to assist in flavour of the mix. (Similar to winemakers using oak chips inside stainless steel tanks to simulate aging in wood barrels.)

As far as concrete and bricks, I'd steer very well clear of those as the contact surface with the brew.

There are many tanks in Australia of the size that you indicate that are steel walled construction with a plastic membrane liner used for water storage and handling. (A bit like swimming pool liners) (Try http://www.highline.com.au/water-tanks.htm for ideas.)

Hope that shortcut works, this is the first time that I've done that EVER.

Lined tanks might provide you with the "intermediate" cost solution you are after. Those tanks could be masonry, steel, fiberglass or any other material. Delivered and installed price at N.S.W (3000km from the manufacturer) is around $10,000 AUS for 121 cubic meters and $7000 for 72 cubic meters. They supply tanks up to 248 cubic meters if you want.

By the way, I don't mind a bit of SAKI. Picked up the taste while visiting YAZAKI plants a couple of years back.

Hmmm- lets simplify the foregoing as to why a potential maker & supplier of a product is looking to find the cheapest way to deliver rotgut to unaware consumers- profit- now why can't all those potential consumers make their own - as I do- & they would save mucho money!. A person/family making it's own is in control of all factors- the best red wine I have drank is made by a bro-in-law (Italian origin) the old fashioned way- grapes- stomping- natural yeast- aging in wood keg. All commercial products are enhanced(?) by chemicals, blending etc. The easiest way to make red wine, apple cider whatever is do as I do- buy 2 litre containers of fruit juice- add small amount of wine yeast- invert cont 3x- put in warm spot(25C) for a week or so(cap loose)- when at desired taste, tighten cap, put in fridge- & sparkling wine!. Cheers~!!.