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Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 5:39 PM

High tension lines (or any other AC power lines or flows that are under load) generate an alternating magnetic field outside the wires insulation. What I was wondering is what if any effect would placing a secondary Induction coil around the outside of such a line with a load applied to the secondary as well would have on the lines flow? Would it increase the use of energy from the line? As I understand about induction coils the energy used in the primary is used to make the magnetic field that induces the current in the secondary. But in this case the energy being used in the Primary coil IE the line is already under load and is already producing the magnetic field to energize a secondary coil! Other wise in simpler form an induction transformer whether or not it is connected to a load to use the output the primary is still using the same amount of energy as it would if the secondary is loaded or not, so power lines and such that are already loaded should I would think be able to act as the primary for an induction transformer as it already is producing the alternating magnetic field to induce the secondary, NOT something from nothing only reusing a forgotten a by product of power distribution.


What do you think could more power be recovered and used by this approach or is time the men in black came to take me away HayHay!!!

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#1

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 6:37 PM

Think it through for a minute.

Step 1, when you want to do some useful work with electricity, 60% of the time it is with a motor. What is a motor? It is a set of coils of wire which create magnetic fields, and those fields propel a rotating element, which we convert into whatever work we need done. So in essence, a motor does exactly what you are thinking of, as does a transformer (some even think a motor can be thought of as a transformer with bearings). It interacts with a magnetic field and converts electrical energy into kinetic energy.

Step2, think about the work you are doing. Is it "free"? Do you have to pay for the energy? If all it took was to tap into any magnetic field to get energy and have no effect on the source, why would we have power utilities at all? it could have been a one-shot expense to set it up, then we would all be able to use induction to get whatever we needed right off of the wires. The answer is, it is NOT "free" energy. The magnetic field you establish by virtue of that induction, creates a complimentary (parasitic?) magnetic field, which impedes the flow of electricity in the source circuit.

So if you were able to somehow come up with an inductor of some sort to "tap off" power from high tension lines, the power utility who built and maintains those lines and generates the electricity that goes though them will come by and attach a meter to it, then send you a bill. The reason is, you will become a burden on the system: no different than any other load connected to it.

There ain't no free lunch...

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 8:47 PM

Hello JRaef

from me

Kind Regards....

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#2

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 8:46 PM

Hello Brain Gain

JRaef above is correct.

I am reminded of two "local" situations.

1. The Electrical Utility I once worked for required electric power for a VHF repeater station in a very remote location.

At the time, solar cells were not sufficient to run the repeater station, especially as in winter snow would cover the solar cells for weeks at a time, and the early solar cells were quickly poisoned by continued photon degradation of the crystalline lattices.

A long conductor wire was placed parallel to the power line, some 20 feet away from and below the outside phase, on poles with insulators for about half a mile, and that conductor was connected to the primary of a 40kv transformer, with that transformer secondary giving a lower voltage which in turn was then rectified and controlled to charge lead-acid batteries, which ran the repeater station.

The system worked well over many years, and the small load was not perceptible on the 220kV lines, as normal transmission losses disguised the small energy withdrawal from a single phase of the 3-phase transmission line.

2. An enterprising farmer who had been interested in things scientific ran an insulated galvanised fence wire parallel to the 220kV transmission line, far away from that location as in (1) above, and using a carefully connected set of transformers, was able to cheat the transmission company of revenue.

That farmer was discovered by the local power authority, after they noted the big reduction of his power accounts, and check meters were then fitted without that farmer's knowledge.

The farmer was prosecuted and fined for "theft of electricity", the "electric fence" was removed.

If any energy is extracted from a system to be sent elsewhere, then that original "giving or donating" system has given a quantifiable amount outside of its own system.

Kind Regards....

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#10
In reply to #2

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 4:08 PM

I'm not an engineer—nor do I play one on television…

But let me see if I understand Jraef and Sparkstation correctly. IF the power distributor comes along and notices either A) something attached, or suspiciously close to, their transmission lines; or B) notices a suspicious change in a meter reading, they will probably investigate.

Maybe I missed it, but nothing seems to indicate, either here or in the rest of the posts so far, that the generator/distributor would in fact detect any change, short of "stumbling" on to it. The second tale, re the farmer, seems to indicate precisely this.

Believe me, I would consider it stealing electricity--but short of accidental discovery or being "tipped off", be it by funky meter readings or an irate neighbor, how would they know?

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#4

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 9:23 PM

I am sorry I thought I was some what clear on what I had in mind , OPPs there I go thinking again!!

1st this is not a project to go out and do, it is a question of is it possible!

Next the load that the current produced would run is not important, the question is will it work, also an electric motors fields are not transformers because it has no secondaries and no out put, it is no more than an electro magnet!

Next in the case of high tension lines it would be the power companies benefit to get all the use they can out of the power they transmit over the lines, some possible uses would be to run service lighting on their towers at no extra cost! other applications to the idea though could be that a secondary coil could be added to your central air conditioners power line that could be used to charge batteries that could run low voltage lighting at night in their home again at no extra cost!

AND NO THIS NOT SOME THING FROM NOTHING as stated in the very beginning please read very carefully this is not free energy scam, in an induction transformer, step up or step down, the power used is to create a magnetic field that induces a current in a secondary coil, this magnetic field is created by putting an AC current in a complete circuit through coper windings this creates not only the magnetic field but creates a load on the circuit that consumes energy, now every day, 24 hours a day the high tension line meet all these conditions and generate a continuous alternating field the working load needed to induce and complete the primary circuit is right there! That potential is lost right now, But my idea is to reclaim that potential by introducing a secondary coil into that magnetic field for what ever use that is found for it.

Think about it in many other areas the use off wasted by products have become a new way to reduce or to create new energy. A few of these are grocers have recycled the heat from freezers to heat the stores, there is an adapter you can put on your dryers exhaust to heat your basement while drying your laundry, their is a company builds and installs sterling engine powered generators in industrial plants that generate a large amount of waste heat as a by product to their operations to power most of or all of the companies energy needs!

And no I am not talking about stealing power from anyone But if in the example above with the farmer if the magnetic field from the high tension lines made it to the ground in amount great enough to generate a usable amounts they need to make some changes to their lines thats way to much EM field at ground level not only that but as long as it was being generated with no connection to the line, towers, or any other means of tapping or any form of contact with their property, that would be about the same as a farmers neighbor having a water pond that was over flowing onto you land so you build a swimming pond on your land in the overflow path for your enjoyment. He cant come in and claim that you are steeling his water just because you put his nuisance to good use!

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 11:00 PM

Hello again, Brain Gain

You have not seemed to understand what has been explained above, so perhaps I didn't explain it well enough for you.

Energy is not free, it has to be made somewhere, and shifted to where energy is to be used to perform useful work.

<"....service lighting on their towers at no extra cost....">

The extraction of energy to run those lights, is enabled by increased generation at the power station, (more water through a turbine/more coal burned in a steam boiler etc.), that extra energy quantity must be generated to enable the proposed <"....service lighting on their towers...."> is larger than the actual energy needed to run those lamps, because of all the various losses in the chain from generator to light.

<"....other applications to the idea though could be that a secondary coil could be added to your central air conditioners power line that could be used to charge batteries that could run low voltage lighting at night in their home again at no extra cost!....">

Not so: If you extracted energy to charge those batteries, in the manner you suggest, you would find your power meter would register the extra energy taken, and your increased power bill would reflect that extracted energy.

For some reason, you think that extraction of energy from a power line is free.

The simple answer is that there is a cost, reflected in increased generation, plus all the transmission losses, to allow for the lamp/battery charger etc to have usable energy.

There is a time to understand that a line of research is fruitless, in spite of many earnest efforts, but fruitless it remains, because of basic laws of physics.

I say that, because I can only suggest you don't waste an unrecoverable portion of your lifespan, trying to achieve the impossible.

If such an idea had been able to work, I would have used it some 50+ years ago, myself, and had "free power" since, for all those years and into the future.

However, I still pay for my electricity, because quick research showed me that what I had hoped to do when I was much younger, could not possibly work, and I discarded the "good idea".

In saying all the above, don't drop interesting ideas, because at times there is the "Eureka Effect" and a new development occurs, but this proposal of free energy extraction from power lines is not one of them.

Save your efforts and try a different idea.

Kind Regards....

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#13
In reply to #5

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 6:58 PM

Good answers, here and above. I admire your patience, for reasons mentioned in my reply to JRaef.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 12:07 PM

This is off the subject but could you please give me info. on the company that has the sterling engine powered generators?

Thank you, I have extra heat, Nick

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#6

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/03/2008 11:43 PM

For some reason it seams that most people don't grasp that although a magnetic field can or is created by the flow of electricity it is not in itself any form of electricity or for that mater it is not any form of energy that anyone has yet defiantly classified but one of its properties is that when alternating it will induce (NOT TRANSFER) current flow in coper wire, this same idea was Incorporated into televisions some ware around the 80s instead of using large power hungry step up power transformers or taps off of Flyback transformers to generate the 300 to 600 VDC needed for the B+ boost voltage circuits they used the the horizontal yoke windings on the picture tube to create these voltages without and I repeat without the need for consuming the power from the line instead after the yoke powered up to its maximum field strength the power was stopped to allow the dot on the screen to return to the other side of the screen during this time the collapsing magnetic field in the yoke would pass through the yoke windings generating the 300 to 600 vdc that the B+ boost voltage that was needed to drive some of the circuits! This approach lowered the power needed to run the TV and made them lighter as well as more compact and portable but the most important to this thread is that it was reclaiming wasted potential that always was there and after so many years some one said wait a minute this TV has the makings of a high voltage generator hiding it and no extra energy is required to run it, it is laterally a byproduct of it normal funtion!

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/04/2008 12:59 AM

Hello again, Brain Gain

Without wishing to appear rude, a "Block text" Post or Topic as your above one is difficult for readers to read/assimilate the intent of the person posting that Block text.

<"....For some reason it seams that most people don't grasp that although a magnetic field can or is created by the flow of electricity it is not in itself any form of electricity or for that mater it is not any form of energy that anyone has yet defiantly classified but one of its properties is that when alternating it will induce (NOT TRANSFER) current flow in coper wire....">

The alternating magnetic field requires energy to maintain those alterations, on a continued basis.

When a coil is within that alternating magnetic field, and not connected to anything, there is a voltage stress (EMF) induced into that coil (But no power required from the supply power line).

There is energy available if that coil is short-circuited or has some load: motor/lamp/heater etc connected, at which point the electrons in the coil surge back and forth to do the work, and that extracted energy is required to be made up from the supplying power line.

There's no use thinking that somehow, magnets are magical devices and energy cannot be transferred via a magnetic field.

Of course it can. or electric motors/generators/alternators could not possibly work.

Simple example: Bring two magnets towards each other.

If like poles approach, it requires the application of constant force to bring those like poles together and keep them touching.

Likewise unlike poles brought together do attract, and to stop them from touching requires a constant force to keep them apart.

Are you somehow hoping for "free energy" from some assembly of magnets or coil around/near a power line?

If so you shall be sorely disappointed, because for energy out must have energy in, plus the inevitable losses.

Perhaps I misunderstand you.

If I haven't grasped your idea, please advise, with drawing/s and diagrams if possible, to enable better understanding by myself and others.

Note: The increased efficiency of TV flyback transformers was available because of the speed of the change, which enabled a far smaller but higher quality core material of that Flyback transformer to generate a higher output voltage.

That was enabled with the invention of "ferrite" cores, whereas earlier the soft iron and the later "powdered iron" cores used could not have handled such a fast pulse (equivalently these are frequency sensitive core materials, as with all transformers).

I am well aware of what you are referring to, as I have been involved in electronics of many varieties, both in my working life and as one of my many interests and hobbies, since 1950 - Refer my Profile if you wish.

Kind Regards....

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#11
In reply to #6

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 4:20 PM

Still not an engineer—Still not on television…


You say "although a magnetic field can or is created by the flow of electricity it is not in itself any form of electricity or for that mater it is not any form of energy that anyone has yet defiantly classified." Am I correct to have an understanding that induction of current involves magnetic fields, such as a rotor and stator of a motor/generator? Is there not current flowing through both when in operation as a motor or generator? And what about the Seebeck or Peltier effects, where temperature gradients are utilized to produce fields with current?

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#8

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/04/2008 4:06 PM

"... also an electric motors fields are not transformers because it has no secondaries and no out put, it is no more than an electro magnet!"

Just to set you straight on this, there IS a "secondary" on an AC motor; it is the rotor. The stator windings induce a voltage onto the cage of the rotor. The rotor cage then creates its own magnetic field, out of phase (polarity) with the stator's field and as the stator field changes poles, it repulses the rotor's field and creates movement.

OK, I get that you are not trying to get "free" energy from a revenue standpoint, you are thinking that this is a way to recover energy that is being "lost" somewhere in the application of it to loads. But therein lies your misunderstanding. The magnetic fields surrounding high tension wires DO NOT represent a loss or waste of energy to the utility. The transmission line's only significant losses are what are called IR losses from the resistance of the wire material itself (R), based upon the amount of current (I) going through them. That is why they use such high voltages; the lower the current, the lower the losses. Magnetic fields are created by the FLOW OF CURRENT, not by the potential behind it, so the fields are the result of the work being done elsewhere.

It is only if those magnetic fields interact with something that the loss becomes a reality. That interaction is called WORK. To get work out of an AC circuit, you ind up creating that interactive magnetic field mentioned above: either in the transformer / rectifier circuit of your switching power supply example, or in the direct conversion of the AC fields to mechanical motion in a motor. So in the process of trying to "capture" energy from the magnetic fields surrounding the wires to do some work, YOU are going to create a loss that was not there!

Your analogy to using the neighbors water flow to fill your swimming pool is not valid here. Your induced voltage is going to do work is it not? Otherwise, why do it? So how is that like a swimming pool? In fact, the additional evaporation alone represents an additional loss to the neighbor in that scenario. The correct analog to the electrical scenario is that your neighbor has a water wheel on a grist mill down hill from you and owns the water rights to the entire stream. You install a dam where the stream crosses your property and capture the water on its way to him to run your own gristmill first, thinking this has no effect on his pond and mill. But it does; YOUR pond increases the surface area and evaporation rate, leakage / soak-in time to the ground, etc. so that once the water leaves your mill, there is less water getting to him. He has losses now that he did not have before you built your dam.

I repeat, there is no free lunch.

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 6:54 PM

I gave you a good answer, and admire your patience.

In another thread, I mentioned having an old, inefficient motor. My guess is that the power factor is around .6 and the efficiency is probably also about .6. It's a lot like a transformer which coincidentally has a rotating shaft sticking out of it.

Following the original poster's logic, that transformer on the pole outside my house is simply tapping into waste EM fields that are there whether I use electricity in my house or not. My motor, I suppose, is then tapping into the local waste EM fields that just happen to be found inside the motor. The power company couldn't possibly have the gall to charge me to run my motor, could they?? There is clearly no connection at all between the rotor and wires -- one need only disassemble the motor to see that. I shouldn't have to pay money to use electricity unless there is a direct wired connection straight from the power plant to my wall outlet... and then I should only have to pay for usage at lightbulbs... and if pressed, for usage in motors with brushes. If there is no physical connection, then it's free energy, right?

Arrrgggh! I would feel no need to reply, except that the original poster's reply to your very good first answer and Sparky's very good first answer is so typical of a certain personality type associated with free energy and "magnet motors". The first four paragraphs of his post #4 end in exclamation points, and then the fifth starts out with shouting. He writes:

AND NO THIS NOT SOME THING FROM NOTHING as stated in the very beginning please read very carefully this is not free energy scam, in an induction transformer, step up or step down, the power used is to create a magnetic field that induces a current in a secondary coil, this magnetic field is created by putting an AC current in a complete circuit through coper windings this creates not only the magnetic field but creates a load on the circuit that consumes energy, now every day, 24 hours a day the high tension line meet all these conditions and generate a continuous alternating field the working load needed to induce and complete the primary circuit is right there!

All that resembles just one "sentence" (only because it starts with a capital letter and eventually ends up with and exclamation point). But how is a reader to make any sense of it? Contained within that gibberish is the admonishment "please read very carefully." It strikes me as pretty arrogant to expect anyone to read something that is constructed so poorly. It seems that he is trying to write that a coil near a power line would act like a transformer. He's right. It would work like an inefficient version of the transformers near our houses. So he's got his answer, it seems, but he somehow cannot or will not understand that all transformers do not simply gather "free energy." They take energy from the primary, not from the ethos, or the great vacuum beyond.

It's so hard to know which posters are active scammers and which are ignorant of the fundamentals. He writes:

That potential is lost right now, But my idea is to reclaim that potential by introducing a secondary coil into that magnetic field for what ever use that is found for it. Would it not occur to someone (just as soon as that was written, one would hope) that if there is a "secondary", then there must be a "primary." If there is a primary (the power line) then you have just another transformer, and can expect to 1. pay for the watt hours used, and 2. increase the power company's generating load by a similar amount plus losses. Only in the free energy/"magnet motor"/over unity world is this stuff not obvious.

Every free energy "thinker" puts something just like this into such posts, almost always capitalized: AND NO THIS NOT SOME THING FROM NOTHING...

As if shouting will make it true.

Another feature that shows up all the time in free energy posts is this sort of thing: For some reason it seams that most people don't grasp that ... as if to say that the problem is not the poster's faulty logic, but the result of others just not being capable of understanding.

This stuff can get pretty tedious, so I do admire your patience, and Sparky's.

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#14

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/05/2008 10:49 PM

Lets get this strait!

Once and for all I am not claiming for you or me or anyone what so ever to take electricity and use it themselves with out paying for it! That notion is only in your head and your posts not mine! If every one will stop putting claims into my posts that were never there in the first place it would be incredibly helpful to what I am looking for!

If you wish to be helpful then forget about all the useless gibberish above and read below, I have gone to extremes to try and spell out what I think can be of benefit if it will work. If you must have a purpose in mind in order to understand a concept then for this argument make it so the power companies transmitting power over the nations power grids will have more power available to deliver to us the end user with out raising Production costs.

This thread was supposed to to be about the possibilities that there might be a way to reclaim a source of wasted potential from an alternating magnetic field that already exists and the energy to create it is not free but has already been consumed to make the power flow through the line in the first place by the power company!

An example that might make the picture easer to see is this...

You go into your back yard and you drill for water, and you find it. Good for you.

But now you have a large mound of dirt that is nothing but waste to you. A boy down the street sees this as a great potential for fun and offers to pay you on a daily basses to use it for a jump ramp for his bike. Its no skin off of you and its money made from something that was no more than waste by product of your goal to get water.

Now as to how I think this can be done in the context that this thread is about.

And this is fact when the current in the line flows forward (and the line is just that a line not a coil and Faraday's law says that an alternating magnetic field that passes through coper coils will induce current flow but I am not sure that that applies to a wire that is not coiled) the motions of the electrons in the line create a magnetic field in one polarity outside the wire.

This field will expand till it reaches its maximum strength during the 1/60th of a second cycle at that moment the flow drops to zero as such, the magnetic field then rapidly collapses back into the line.

During the collapse of the field in that brief moment their is no current flow at all, there is no energy present in the line to be taken or transfered to some ware else , dead as a lump of lead.

But the field for that brief moment is there and because there is no longer any flow to keep it there it collapses on it self, at that moment it should be possible to place a winding in the path of the collapsing field that Faraday's law says will induce current flow in that coil.

During this cycle the electrons in the wire are not moving, and the the next cycle begins and the electrons in the wire for 1/60th of a second move in the other direction and produce the same, but with reversed polarity magnetic field and then stops as before again, the voltage is zero, the amps are zero, there is no flow in the line at all, it is dead!

And once more the orphaned magnetic field that has no flow or energy in the wire to support it now once again will collapse through the coils again inducing current flow in the opposite direction.

This cycle will repeat as long as the the circuit that is inducing the magnetic field is in service.

As in one of my prior post I stated that is the method used in many TVs around the 80s and newer to create up to 600 volts by using the picture tubes yoke coils to power what is referred to B+ Boost voltage for the circuits that need more than the available 110 the was coming in on the line.

When the horizontal circuit receives the fly-back pulse it shuts down the horizontal windings in the yoke, this allows the dot on the screen to retrace from on side of the screen to the other to begin the next line.

But during this time the power to the horizontal coils stop, again no flow, no voltage, no current, the work the the magnetic field that had been created to do was done.

The TV designers figured out that by adding secondary coils to the yoke that at the same time everything stopped to create the retrace on the screen, there was this orphaned magnetic field that during that time would rapidly collapse on its self and as it passed through the secondary coils it would create the needed B+ Boost voltage needed by the set.

This method allowed the large heavy Iron core low voltage transformers to be eliminated all together!

If after all this explanation, I still cant get sensible discussions on this thread then I will just have to quite this tread and start one based on what appears to be the general mentality and the expectations of the users that post here!

How dose this sound for my next thread....

Hello My name is Marten and I have come here from mars. My original purpose was to use this site to suck your minds dry and the eat you brains!

But after just a few days I find that I am starving to death, I can even find enough for a small snack!

So with great reluctance I will have to start dumping my plains for free energy, and perpetual motion devices, as well as my top secret alchemy formula to turn ordinary everyday bull shit into bars of 24 caret gold trimmed in pure platinum, and last but not least the secret to black holes, parallel dimension's, time travel, and the origins of the cosmos!

And with my newly gained ill gotten wealth I will travel to Alpha Centaurus and buy me a new moon and retire in great comfort until the end of time!

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#15
In reply to #14

Electromagnetic Transformer principle appears not understood by yourself

10/06/2008 12:56 AM

Hello again,

The line which is near any other coil, and induces voltage into that secondary coil is the primary of that transformer.

If you read Basic Electrical principles, you would discover what I and others eneavour to explain.

The "coil" you propose, is by a fundamental nature of the laws of Physics, made into the secondary winding of what has become a transformer, with the power line as a single turn primary winding.

There is no other explanation which is acceptable, or may be given to you.

I do appreciate that you may think otherwise from the above, but please remember a Quotation from my very self: "Sincerity of Belief is never a substitute for Truth" - SparkY.

So for some reason, you do not want to recognise that in your "power-line and nearby coil" you have a transformer.

You are within your rights to call that arrangement anything you like, but any first-year student of electricity would recognise the arrangement as a transformer.

You say <"....but I am not sure that that applies to a wire that is not coiled....">, and that in itself means you have not bothered to read about basic AC (Alternating Current) theory, or if you have read that subject, you have not understood the part about transformers.

Read about transformers here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer

Now in your above Post, you have become insulting, humorous, or both, and perhaps that above effort may take your mind off the supposed "Free Energy" thing for a while.

Please take the opportunity to read Lenz' Law, and the principle of electromagnetic induction, refer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law

There are some references at the bottom of that webpage, including some practical videos etc.

I trust you take the time to read, think about what you read, and hope that you then understand.

Kind Regards....

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/06/2008 4:56 AM

Hmmmm- well to strictly detractors of free energy from unpaid for sources(the sun-hmmm?) for one- this guy is trying to think outside the accepted hooman "this is it!" mentality. Yes, transformer knowledge is well known such as it is at present- but in Tesla's day he too was denograded by accepted principles(ie dc only!). And his free transmission of power wirelessly. The point is that without free thinkers, no advances or new discoveries are possible- now if I could only get a new TMP 87C538N-3654 ic!.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/06/2008 10:25 AM

"Free Energy" (perhaps unfortunately, in the sense that it seems to be contributing to confusion here) has many meanings. For most of the discussion here, everything that JRaef and Sparkstation and I have said is equally true whether there is a monetary cost to electricity or not. There is a "free energy" "over-unity," "perpetual motion" group of people, some uneducated, some deluded, and some active scammers, who believe, or pretend to believe, that energy can be extracted from (who knows where?) without any "cost" in the "conservation of energy" or physics sense.

Anyone with the most basic understanding of AC electricity knows that taking energy from a conductor by means of inductance causes at least an equivalent additional load on that conductor. To stipulate otherwise is to profess a belief in magic. As virtually everyone knows, power is delivered to users via inductance, through devices we call transformers. We all know, or should know, that if we add 100 users to a power system, the power system will be more heavily loaded, because the load on the secondary side of the transformers is seen on the primary side. There are no free lunches.

The original poster proposes to make a transformer by placing a secondary coil in proximity to a primary coil. This is the standard means for power distribution. The "twist" in his proposal (he thinks) is that the primary coil is a straight wire. But this is not unusual at all, and millions of current transformers are used throughout industry with exactly this configuration: "one turn" means that the primary wire passes straight through the current transformer, two turns means that the primary wire is looped around the secondary coil, etc.

These current transformers are often used only to drive instrumentation, (and thereby perform only a small amount of "work") but the energy for the work they perform (small as it often is) is extracted from the power line passing through the secondary coil. This, one would hope, would be obvious. The basic principal is the one our entire ac distribution system is built upon.

So our original poster comes up with the "idea" for a transformer, a device which has been used from the very beginning of AC power, the very device which makes AC power distribution attractive, and thinks he has produced something new, or that he is somehow "thinking outside the box". Profound ignorance of the basics of electrical transmission, inductance, etc, is nothing to be ashamed of. However, belligerence is something to be ashamed of. And for him to refer to the remarkably patient guidance of Sparky and JReaf as "gibberish" is belligerent, in my view. The reasonable alternative to criticising others as being unable to understand the profundity of his "idea" would be to read a little about basic electrical distribution, induction motors, and transformers. By doing such reading, he could find, in just a hour or so, that every single word in Sparky's and JRaef's posts are absolutely spot-on accurate.

JReaf and Sparky are not trying to squelch free thinking, but trying to help direct our original poster into working on areas that have some basis in rational thought. Also, there are safety concerns here, and profound ignorance of induction can be a dangerous thing. In virtually every discussion of control transformers (like the ones pictured above) there are admonitions re not disconnecting the secondary load, because the secondary voltages can be lethal, cause sparks, etc, etc. This is true even when the voltage in the primary is very very low, in comparison to overhead power line voltages. This is not stuff to play around with and if our original poster wishes to experiment with recreating the wheel, he should at least read up on the dangers involved. Experimenting with transformers, even when powered by household voltages, can be profoundly dangerous.

The point is that without free thinkers, no advances or new discoveries are possible...

Perhaps, although being completely clueless re the subject matter at hand is not a requirement for success in discovering new things.

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#18

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/06/2008 2:40 PM

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Did you know that every atom every ware is bound together by an internal electro magnetic force? This force apparently can exist without the flow of energy from one place to another or even needing to consume it! It dose not degrade, it is not used up, it hold the atoms bonds together so it is doing work, it is described as electro indicating a form of electrical energy driving the magnetism that bonds the atom together yet the energy is never depleted else the atoms would cease to exist and the universe with it!

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So explain if you can the conservation in energy law and how the atom seems to deify this law and allows us to exist in defiance of man made laws of the universe!

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Or is this the lock that everyone has desperately been seeking the key to for to get that free energy that everyone here is so obsessed about? And fears that it might some how be found and upset the preconceived notions of what can be?

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Maybe the answers lay in the approaches to science use by Morgana and Merlin of old using the investigations into the elemental sciences, to be able to create something from nothing and to change something into something else at will.

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Today it should be possible to make any element you desire from any other element that you should desire to use. One atom at a time! Gold, silver, no problem!

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There is a scientist among others that have added many new elements to the periodic tables that are unnatural man made elements using cyclotrons to add new components to the existing elements that are in nature to create new ones. And he stated that one day it should be possible to have a single atom so big that it will be able to be seen buy the unaided human eye and you will be able to work with it with you bare hands!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the physical laws as they were dictated around 1965 and were treated as absolute fact indeed had been fact that said that the elements listed on the periodic table were all that there was and can be and that everything in the universe is limited to those elements or some combination of them. Then the scientist that I spoke of above must have crated an alternate reality with a different set of laws and moved us all from there to here with out our knowing about it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So at that time they were saying that just as you are now saying about my ideas that it was against the physical laws of the universe for the existence of anything what so ever that was made up of atoms that were not already listed and already existed on moment one in the creation of the universe and was then stated as undeniable fact!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You would think after hundreds of years of absolutes that have been trampled and proven useless and dead wrong, that those believing themselves to believe these absolutes as fact should be more careful in how they use them or one day it will be the real world and the next set of absolutes that trample them!

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#19

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/06/2008 4:53 PM

I just had a thought but to explain it I will start by listing some of the physical properties occurring as the current passes through the power lines......

1st there is electron flow....

2nd there is the creation of an electromagnetic field induced do to the electron flow.....

3rd there is resistance inherent to the wire to the electron flow....

4th there is heat generated dew to the resistance inherent to the electron flow....

Now the idea I had is sense you believe that tapping into the unused potential of the alternating magnetic field around the lines is braking the laws of the universe, How about the heat?

Grid Power lines have extreme voltage and current flowing at all times! That adds up to extreme resistance and extreme heat!

So if you use a gas filled tube to collect and conduct the heat to a motor that was designed around a couple of hundred years ago by a man named sterling. A motor that will take any source of heat as a fuel and with a source of lower temperature use the difference between the two to create a motor that when connected to a load will do work. And as an added benefit the moving of the heat to the motor then to say the air would reduce the temperature of the power lines lowering resistance in the wire allowing better transition of the power in the line from point A to point B with less overall loss!

Is this still magical free energy or a reasonable way to reclaim something that is being wasted and at the same time create an added benefit of grater efficiency in the line itself?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 3:48 AM

WOW!- your idea of extracting heat from the lines caused by resistance, & so lowering resistance is brilliant(in my humble opinion)- are you a reincarnation of Tesla, or a new age genius?.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 11:18 AM

Extreme voltage and extreme current do not add up to extreme resistance... but in some other respects, there is a kernel of rationality in this post.

Obviously, power plants have been aware of line losses since day one, and all engineers are aware that recovering waste heat for productive use is generally a good thing. It is from this thinking that cogeneration sprang, for instance. I would not expect the dollar value of energy recovered by driving a Sterling engine from the heat given off by transmission wires to be remotely close to the amortised dollar cost of the engine (and generator, I assume). However, if you are interested, you could do the calculations to see.

My guess is that you could use a Sterling engine powered by concentrated sunlight to generate electricity at a very small fraction of the price. Concentrated sunlight can produce relatively high temperatures, unlike power lines, which operate at relatively low temperatures.

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#21

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 10:19 AM

The induction coil would cause detected loading and you're right, they would come and take you away. Well, maybe not take you away, but fine the hell out you. People have tried this before and got away with it........for a little while.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 1:27 PM

I can understand (barely) that an induction would represent a load, but I'm still very unclear on how it would be detected by the generator/distributor--unless one is saying that there is a direct comparison between what is generated and put out on the grid and what amount is being billed for? I don't doubt that it is possible to do this, as in "We've pumped 3 gigawatts into the grid, but there is billing for only 2.97 gigawatts" Further, I'm sure that the likely losses to temperature and distance may be calculated as well--but I'm still not seeing how, short of a physical search, the distributor could track down the illicit load or, short of comparing what is placed on the grid with what is taken off, factoring anticipated losses, and arriving at unaccounted usage.

Now, I can see that, given advances in metering tech, if not already it will soon come to real-time monitoring. Distributors are gearing up for time-of-use and tiered billing. I'm also intrigued with the idea of cooling the transmission lines, but would improvement in efficiency offset the added complications and energy needed to circulate coolant? It seems to me it would be a wash at best, the indicator being it would be done already if it was worth doing (it is technologically feasible but is it cost-effective?)


me type better when straps loose...

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#24

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 5:36 PM

I think I see that I have introduced an element to my ideas that is new to some as in the suggestion that the coolant would need to be pumped, that and others are some of the wonders of the sterling engine design!

First the sterling engine is a cross between a heat pump and a steam engine...

Second the expansion of the gas from the heat source is the driving force and the motor its self is the pump or if you use the gas as just the collector for the heat then the gas will act a little like a heat conduction wire and you would use a heat exchanger at the the motor to heat what ever medium that you would use for the operation of the sterling engine....

Third for savings in in cooling the lines or maybe the transformers and very obviously they get very hot, have you ever seen a power substation and all the banks of fans for cooling the transformers? How much power dose it take to run all those fans?

As for running fans for cooling why complicate the simplicities of the sterling engine just pull the heat off to run the engine thus keeping the transformers cool and then no need for to convert to electricity just link the fans to the output of the sterling engine to drive them for to help on the heat dissipation side of the sterling engines operation and then, if there is still enough energy to run an alternator or generator go ahead and add one of them and then you could maybe light the substation up from that!

Here are some links that can show you some information on this ancient technology...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dTt2s6YwJ8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBZDJn6B0cs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mlyXRBLkqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I68Ho12DK6Y

http://greenpowerscience.com/STIRLINGENGINE1.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi0Y0Kr-_KI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z2bjsKyaYw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4joQSkQ1_M&feature=related

http://www.kockums.se/submarines/aipconversion.html

http://www.rgpsystems.com/

These links should bring most of you up to speed on the sterling engines and a little imagination might just do the rest!

And as to the statement about if it was that simple why is it not already being done! That statement and the attitude that come with it is the quick sand that bogs down the advancement of technology! So much is by passed by simply because it is simple and in this age of hight tech solutions no one believes that there are still simple answers to complex questions and problems!

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#25

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/07/2008 10:10 PM

If anyone out there has the resources to try the following experiment it will prove or disprove my possible approach to secondaries and the line.....

First you will need some ware around 18 gage insulated solid non stranded coper wire...

Next cut the wire into 3 pieces about 2 feet long...

You will need 2two 6 volt lantern batteries....

Place the two batteries about 16 inches apart they will simulate the load and the energy source of the transformers at each end of the transmission lines...

Connect one of the wires to the negative on one of the batteries and to the positive on the other this will be the return transmission line...

Then connect another wire to the remaining negative connection on the one battery this wire will be our primary line.....

Then on the primary line about half way take some scotch tape and rap it several layers thick over several inches to create sort of an air gap....

Then take the third piece of wire and use it to rape a secondary winding over the air gap...

Connect one lead of of the second trace input of a dual trace oscilloscope to one of the secondary wires.

Connect the second lead of of the second trace input of a dual trace oscilloscope to the the switch so that when switched on it completes the circuit between the secondary coil and the oscilloscope.

Connect the first trace inputs to the primary line at ether end one to the wire ware it connects to the battery and the other to ware the wire connects to the switch.

Now you will need to be a little creative on your own at this point. You will need a circuit that will act high speed switch that will go between the remaining battery connection and the the loose line wire to simulate 1/60 of a second current motion in the wire then say about 1 second of open circuit state, during which it will close the open connection between the oscilloscope and the remaining secondary coil connection.

When you have everything assembled start up the oscilloscope and the circuit switch and compare the wave forms.

This is what I think will happen...

During the 1/60th of a second that the current flows in the line the first trace should peek at 12 volts and remain there until the end of the 1/60th of a second is over then it will fall to zero for the one second the current is stopped to the primary line, at the same time the switch broke the battery connection it should have loaded the secondary coil, if it did, now during the time that the power is disconnected from the line the second trace should now show a voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses through the secondaries. then both traces should show zero until the next time the cycle repeats!

One thing if the oscilloscope is not enough of a load the you might need to add a shunt so that it will be switched across the secondary coil when its time to load the secondary. The secondary must be open and no load during the powering of the primary line during the magnetic field expanding trough the secondary coils and loaded at the same moment the the primary line is disconnected thus the primary line is dead and no energy to be transfered to the secondaries.

If I am right in my guess the spike from the secondary coil will come after the primary line is dead as indicated by a zero reference line in the first trace.

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#26
In reply to #25

Why the System does not produce useful Power.

10/08/2008 4:23 AM

Hello once again, Brain Gain

The input resistance of a standard oscilloscope is 11 Megohms, which I well know, having used oscilloscopes since the late 1950's, and have had a dual trace oscilloscope included amongst my personal electrical Test Equipment for well over 30 years now.

Of course there is a voltage (EMF) generated in that coil you describe.

It is evident that no Power is transferred until a proper load is placed on that coil.

Once the load is placed, the current and simultaneous voltage may be measured.

In your illustration, the available POWER in WATTS would be extremely small, so small to be useless for almost every application I can think of.

Have you bothered to read and understand basic electrical principles?

Have you read and understood Lenz' Law of electromagnetic induction?

Links for both above are in my Post above: http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/290201/Electromagnetic-Transformer-principle-appears-not-understood-by-yourself

I did advise in an earlier post, that you do so, because if you read and understood those, you would then realize that your intended "Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines" as you describe, the EMF (voltage) alone as measured by an oscilloscope or any other means does not mean a worthwhile power transfer.

Work of every sort requires Power, and the gross inefficiency in your proposed system, plus the insulation requirements which are extremely difficult to achieve and remain, preclude any useful actual WORK Energy transfer, at a reasonably efficient cost-effectiveness.

Likewise the proposed heat transfer via gas pipes from EHV transmission lines is not cost-efficient.

It is quite evident you are hoping to somehow obtain useful amounts of energy from "heat which is otherwise wasted", and this is an admirable ambition.

<"....This is what I think will happen.......">

<"....If I am right in my guess....">

However your evident lack of understanding of even the basics of electricity would preclude your efforts from having any useful success, which is why I did advise you earlier that your attempts are wasting unrecoverable portions of your lifespan, and you could perhaps achieve some useful results in a field other than the above.

In saying the above, please understand that I am not condemning you, but trying to advise you in your own interests, to put your efforts into some useful project.

Kind Regards....

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/08/2008 11:39 AM

One thing if the oscilloscope is not enough of a load...

It is the very nature of an oscilloscope to be essentially no load at all on the circuit under test.

You'd learn far more about electricity if you took a class at a community college, where you would have access to oscilloscopes, signal generators, transformers, and loads of electrical and electronic components. There is no substitute for doing your own experimentation.

If your objective is to begin to understand electrical basics, then it would make sense to create an analog to a transmission line, with the same wave form, but at much lower, safer voltages. (Creating a different waveform shape, as you seem to be proposing, might be a good later experiment. In a power line, you do not have an analog to the situation in which the voltage "should peek [sic] at 12 volts and remain there until the end of the 1/60th of a second...") A simple 120V/6V transformer would help you to create an analogy from which you could learn. It's output would be a near perfect replica of the power line waveform at a much lower voltage. Then you could experiment to your heart's content: wrap wires around the 6 volt wires, etc etc. You could make many alternative types of transformers, with and without cores, and in so doing learn a great deal about AC theory and practice. Your instructor could help you put together a demonstration that would show that the power consumed by the secondary load increases the load on the primary by the same amount (plus losses). There may be no more basic concept in power transmission, and your instructor will be well-practiced in dispelling misconceptions such as those you hold.

Sparky has pointed you in the right direction, but it doesn't appear that you have taken his advice and done some reading about electrical basics. You seem no more acquainted with the basics than you were when you started this thread. We don't have unlimited time here, and it is silly for us to spend time going over basic theories that are available, to those willing to read, in great detail on hundreds of websites.

I fear I must unsubscribe, but not without wishing you well in your endeavors, and to advise that you do some experimentation under tutelage. People do get killed each and every day playing with this stuff, so some help through the basics is a good thing.

Do well and be safe,

Ken

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#28

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/08/2008 12:24 PM

Fantastic, hallelujah, The light may finally have been seen!

Come on you keep claiming I have no knowledge of electricity, electronics, or the theoretical concepts these are based on but yet I have explained step by step my Ideas using those very concepts you say I don't know! Totally new approaches to do something totally new rarely if ever fits directly into the normal physical models at least at first! That is until you look deeper until you see that many times it is a combination of theory's forming sort of a compound model using the principles of many theory's to create a totally new one.

And now after many pain painstaking long and extensive posts attempting to paint a picture you can understand I would seem to have finally had some success! I have tried by example, and by physical construction, Even by step by step function. And finally by a model it seams to have finally happened, the light is on!

Now instead of imposable, no way, steeling energy, or moving it from on to the other...

Now its difficult, to costly, and not enough potential for the cost.

Great, Fantastic, Yahoo, Huston We Have Lift Off and all that!!!!!!!!!!!!

The first step to success in any undertaking is to first prove it is possible from that foundation a mighty empire may one day emerge!

And you just admitted that it is possible but just not of any useful amount for the cost which from the beginning you said it was imposable and against the physical laws!

And for everyones information I have had 2 years of Electronics schooling, about 10 years of expanded book learning on my own after that, I personally have a library of about 120 books in the field that I have read at least a couple of times each and are used regularly as reference material, plus I have about 30 years total in practical applications of these in things such as Television, VCRs, Micro Wave, Repair And building PC Computers that do things that experts swear can not be done and they are total amazed when they see them, so please quit talking to me as if I was a first year high school student! I haven't been trying to put you down as if you were some kind of under educated idiots, Just because you don't fully understand my concept dose not make ether of us any less intelligent. Although I have my reservations as to whether or not you stop to think about what you have read before replying as much of the replies seem to not match up with and some how receive rants and raves on things that was never said in the posts!

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

10/09/2008 4:08 AM

I am something like you- self taught, & a reputation as fixer of anything- I love fixing electronic stuff, but will fix whatever I have to- i too have library of info as needed- the trouble here is that you are trying to convince seasoned conventional guys- your spelling does not lend credence to your statements- I too make mistakes, but correct them- really in my humble opinion if you think you have something, go it alone- patent it then crow to these stuffed shirt fixed opinion w----kers!.(mind you, they are probably right- sometimes!!!!).

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#30
In reply to #28

Challenge for Brain Gain - But will he take it up?

10/09/2008 7:06 AM

Hello Brain Gain

Evidently you regard your "researches" as being far more useful that all previous scientists, researchers and physicists combined.

<"....The first step to success in any undertaking is to first prove it is possible from that foundation a mighty empire may one day emerge!....">

Foundations are critical, and should always be tried and tested, never laid on sand.

This foundation is even more important when you talk of a <"....mighty empire...."> emerging from your research, no doubt with yourself as the self-styled "Energy King".

Others and myself have tried to advise you to stop wasting your life, money and materials, in the quest for the so-called "free-energy" device which you say you are designing and making.

Here is a challenge for you:

If you are able to make such a "free-energy" device or machine, which gives out more energy than is inputted to the device or machine, has no pollution during its operation or manufacture, and is properly eco-friendly, I shall be the first person to purchase that machine or device.

There are perhaps other Members who would also purchase such a device or machine - on similar terms.

Are you going to accept that challenge?

Kind Regards....

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#31

Re: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines

01/13/2009 8:53 AM

As others have said, there is not free lunch. If you acquire power, something else is giving it up.

Yes it can be detected.

If you have a 'reason' like a repeater in a previous example, power companies still want to put a meter on it and charge you, since you are using their power. They may make specific exceptions on a case by case basis (I would think for 'internal use', public safety, etc., but without pre-authorization, you are toast in court. Even the power company uses electricity without metering it on occasion, like street lights, pole mounted 'security lights' many places, but usually charge a fixed amount per light/fixture to cover power, infrastructure cost, and of course: profit.

We have already dispatched black helicopters to your location ;)

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