Previous in Forum: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines   Next in Forum: VT Accuracy Rating
Close
Close
Close
10 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Power-User
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 267
Good Answers: 22

What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/03/2008 10:32 PM

Hi all,

I'm having a conceptual difficulty here - you might be able to straighten it out...

I have created a model in a big fat spreatsheet to work out the efficiency when sharing a load between power stations (it's a simplified and hypothetical student project - so don't worry I'm not trying to wire into the grid or anything).

I have a desired end load (at 220kv line to line) and I know the impedances of the lines. So I have worked back using KVL and KCL etc to get my required voltage and current at the station end about 120km away.

Then I introduce the second station, about 80km away and balance the total required P & Q (real and reactive power) values between them - so if one station provides 20% of the P, the other provides 80%. Similar for Q. So long as in the end I get my total P and total Q at the end I have a working system.

Then I look at my total power loss as I tweak the P & Q values - I'm trying to find the sweet spot where power losses are the lowest.

My model appears to work - I have a macro that runs through about 1000 possibilities then I graph those as a surface and get a nice curved sheet with the sweet spot at the bottom.

However I am a bit conceptually challenged interpreting the results.

Basically changing the P value affects the losses greatly (as expected) but changing the Q values affects it to a far lesser degree. This is I suppose expected - the P is dissipated in the lines, the Q is not (much). However I can't work out whether my model has a flaw, because the change in loss based on balancing the Q values between the stations is very very small - pretty much inconsequetial in fact.

Should I be looking for something wrong in the calculations, or is altering the split of reactive power load share expected to have very little effect on overall efficiency?

(pf = 0.82 lagging, Load P = 350MW, R=0.2 Ohms /km, X=0.3 Ohms/km, C=7E-9 F/km).

Thanks...

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#1

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/04/2008 12:38 AM

Hello RobertOz

That "Sweet Spot" is going to vary, back and forth, each time the load/load reactance at the load end varies.

Please also remember that one power station will normally compensate faster than the other, and generate more/less power for the load as a result.

In earlier days, the "System Control" operators were almost driven mad by having to manually calculate load apportionment under a "many power station" plus many "load" and "Load Power Factor" conditions.

These days it's run from a small computer at the System Control Point, which distributes instructions to Power Station and Substation Computers, which alter their settings as instructed.

I understand that the Software involved is proprietary, and in effect it does what your Spreadsheet workings do, then instructs other slave computers with the data needed for adjustment.

I presently do not have a copy of that Software, sorry.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply
Power-User
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 267
Good Answers: 22
#2
In reply to #1

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/04/2008 9:01 AM

I don't have that software either

But I guess that's why god invented spending a seemingly infinite amount of time cursing at excel (just why did he feel he had to invent that anyway?)

Anyway - perseverence brings rewards - I found I was calculating the power loss incorrectly - now I have some great graphs showing the balance points & sweet spots balancing the two stations (unless I got it wrong again...). Here's a sample...

Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#3
In reply to #2

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/04/2008 11:47 PM

Hello RobertOz

The method of graphics insertion at limits the size of graphics, and your picture is hard to read, because it has been "shrunk".

I shall send you a PM, which should arrive in your Member's Mailbox.

That PM will include my address, and if you are able to "Zip" or compress that graphic, I shall be able to receive it, and view it in its full and beautiful details.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 729
Good Answers: 2
#6
In reply to #3

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/07/2008 11:37 PM

Your contributions have been invaluable.Apart from reading ur postings I have also like those symbols on ur messages.I don't know how u do it but pl. keep it up.

Best Regards

__________________
To avoid crticism do nothing,say nothing,be nothing
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#7
In reply to #6

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/08/2008 6:56 AM

Hello nesubra

Read about it here: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/15743/How-to-insert-Graphics-into-your-Post-to-make-it-more-readable-or-interesting

Learn for yourself, experiment, be creative.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 729
Good Answers: 2
#8
In reply to #7

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/08/2008 7:07 AM

Thank you so much. I shall do it.

Kind regards

__________________
To avoid crticism do nothing,say nothing,be nothing
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 28
#4

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/05/2008 3:57 PM

Robert,

I am interesting to take a look at your charts. Can you send me a copy of them to my account?

Thanks, Rey Galindo

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Finland
Posts: 22
#5

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/06/2008 3:40 AM

Do you use distributed constants (or whatever they are called) with the transmission line? I mean R, jX, G and jB...

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member China - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CHINA
Posts: 2945
Good Answers: 14
#9

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/13/2008 4:30 AM

why not list out your model?

From this equation, we may understand more.

there are many factors to cause power loss on the line. so long distance, you can calulate it as transmission equation.

if you according to your pF, the best bet is increase voltage as high as possible. I was told.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 267
Good Answers: 22
#10

Re: What effect does reactive power have on transmission losses

10/14/2008 6:37 AM

Hi all -

Thanks for everyone's comments and interest - apologies for being a bit slow to respond.

I'm just going to see how this image comes out on screen before I send them to anyone separately for ease of communication (trying a larger file - CR4 may or may not squish it).

This is a graph showing what happens when I adjust the ratio of P and Q being sent from two different power stations to power the same load. The graph in my post above had some calculation errors that I later weeded out - hence its odd shape...

The graph shows line losses, so the most efficient point is the lowest spot - in this case when about 55% percent of both P&Q come from the closer station. The model allows changing variables (line impedance, power factor of load etc) and then the low point moves around depending on the variables changed...

And yes - as pointed out by CNPower - efficiency increases markedly with higher voltages - on the spreadsheet at least... the real-world lines that this models are not rated to carry very extremely high voltages.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 10 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

cnpower (1); Flux (1); nesubra (2); reygalindo (1); RobertOz (2); Sparkstation (3)

Previous in Forum: Inducing voltage using Induction from sources such as High tension lines   Next in Forum: VT Accuracy Rating

Advertisement