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Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 8:26 AM

Hi everyone, Does anyone know how I can efficiently separate an approx 10% Petrol from any given quantity of normal Diesel truck/auto fuel. I am dealing with substantial quantities, approx 10,000L per batch. Secondly, what damage may be incurred were I to use Diesel with an approx 10% petrol contamination in a normal Diesel engine. I would Sincerely appreciate any assistance from anyone out there. My Thanks to any interested parties who may care to respond with some viable solution or info concerning any possible damage to Diesel Engines using the contaminated fuel without treatment, (the only contaminant in all batches-normal Petrol/Gasoline)

My sincere thanks to anyone with any information who may care to respond.

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#1

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 9:49 AM

As the two fuels are entirely miscible in all percentages, a distillation column would be a useful thing to have handy with which to effect separation. Normally, a suitable installation may be found at an oil refinery.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 12:14 PM

That advise was entirely missable

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#3

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 11:04 PM

I cannot help you to separate the materials, but can very strongly suggest you not try to use the mixed fuel. I use around 20ml of petrol through the air intake to start a VERY OLD tractor that I have and the engine run on with even a tiny amount too much gets frightening.

I suspect that with 10% mixture you would have significant trouble trying to stop the engine, there would be significant pre-ignition, engine governors would probably not work, engine block heating would become significant and so on.

How is it that every delivery is contaminated? With fuel prices the way they are and the premium for petrol surely the supplier would drain the tank properly before filling with diesel.

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 2:23 AM

Hi Down under Your comments extremely helpful and I thank you, Our tankers deliver Diesel only and we flush out with petrol occasionally and store the resultant volume of contaminated fuel, now we have no storage left.yes seems crazy to me too! hence here to feed on the knowledge base, we surely shouldn't be flushing at all in these troubled times, total waste but just trying to see how we could utilise the contaminated fuel. Thought of adding some in tiny quantities to new batches but a terribly unethical thought.

Thanks again from one engineer (Metrology) to another

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#4

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 11:11 PM

You don't have enough there to worry about.

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#5

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 11:27 PM

10 % in there is nothing. your tanks vent will release the alochol. We add kerosene to diseal to heat it up in the winter here.

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#6

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/20/2008 11:52 PM

Many years ago, while an employee of Mercedes-Benz of North America (The factory's import group for the US and Canada), I would answer technical calls from diesel owners, both truck and passenger cars.

In the winter time, the frequency of stalled vehicles increased because of the lack of properly climatized fuel blends.

Because it was over 30 years ago, my memory is dusty However, I distinctly remember diesel fuel be diluted with small quantities of gasoline so that the paraffin content would not solidify out of suspension and block fuel lines.The use of heated fuel tanks and fuel lines was not nearly as popular back then and for many, the consequences of not having climatized fuel was problematic

This method of thinning was approved by the factory and would not compromise the warranty. It was not meant to be a steady diet, however but it could be done.

The ready availability of diesel fuel today, that's been climatized by region suggests that winter fuels are now already thinned or that the paraffin content has been reduced. I don't know.

My suggestion is that if the two fuels can not be separated economically, that you consider using it when colder winter temps are upon us. I suggest also that the proper dilution ratio by determined beforehand and the existing mixture be adjusted accordingly.

L. J.

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#7

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 12:48 AM

Okay,

What you have is a totally homogeneous mixture of petrol and diesel. This is now one substance and can not be removed. Short of re- distillation, there does not seem to be any way to separate the two, that is, there is no chemical system or screening system that will catch and skim off the petrol.

Trying to re-distill this yourself, even if that were possible, would eventually lead to an "accident" that could destroy your property and most of your neighbors and damage property and put other lives in danger because of the fumes, the soot, and possible spreading of the fire. If you decide to go this route, please let us now so we can have a satellite looking in your direction to see if the explosion could be seen from space.

Tangentially: Is petrol a lesser distillate of crude or does diesel require more distillation and/or other processing? I've received contradictory opinions about this.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 1:16 AM

I am neither a chemist nor a refinery engineer. My knowledge of cracking plants is also limited so read what follows with some prejudice.

Crude oil consists of a wide variety of chemistry, each portion of which has a temperature at which it boils off. Gasoline is the most volatile and boils off early on.

As the remaining products are heated and the temperature increases, those less aromatic materials boil off too. kerosene, diesel fuels and eventually that thick gooey stuff used for paving (asphalt).

Gasoline of varying octanes also have different boil off temps with the higher octane being released sooner. I suspect that a barrel of crude will not produce as much gasoline as it once did, prior to banning the use of Tetra-Ethyl salt compounds.

Back then, the soluble lead artificially boosted the octane and the poorer grades of gasoline were made user friendly

L. J.

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#9

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 1:31 AM

It makes a big difference where you live. If you live in a very cold climate it is normal to add about 7% petrol to diesel to stop it waxing due to low temperatures. 10% could be a bit high if you live in a very hot area and are putting the diesel in a very modern [sophisticated] engine. The best way would be to add more uncontaminated diesel to get the petrol content down to 5%. JD

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 4:13 AM

I agree with suggestion to use this contaminated diesel for very cold weather, but you must adjust percentage, 10% it seems too much. And do not try to use this mixture at normal temperatures, because of poore viscosity you can damage high pressure fluel pump (in old type engines) or sprayer in common rail engines. Repairment may cost up to a half of engine cost.

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 4:26 AM

Hi & Thank you J London UK, South African SE coastal region. Silly of me not to have mentioned in initial enquiry. Winter here approx min +3DegC to summer +34/+25

Your comments appreciated

Metman.

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#23
In reply to #14

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 11:02 AM

When diesel was scarce in South Africa, the railways added 15% petrol to the diesel for locomotives. No harm was done! At cold temperatures 10%petrol plus 1%engine oil would be ideal!

As feul should ignite at the moment when the diesel injector start to deliver the first fraction of a droplet into the hot compressed air in the combustion chamber [to counter knocking which is bad for any engine] the 10%added petrol will do more good than harm...diesel enjins could run on petrol alone without any engine damage....if it was not for the lubrication problem.

NB: Never feed petrol [Or even diesel] to the intake manifold of a diesel engine! It will ignite as soon as the compressed air temp. reaches the flashpoint of the feul, cause severe knocking and possible harm to pistons,conrod or even break the crankshaft

I once drove a diesel truck on a mix of 20L petrol,20L powerparrafin and 10liter engine oil with no harm done and no differance in engine power.

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#26
In reply to #23

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 4:11 AM

Danke Meneer DeKock, Gd to Hear from SA, This is now an eye opener .. Woopsie! A Boer mak a plan. Can't see the wood for the trees now,comprehensive answer confidently given, Umm ... now must try to select my best option with thanks to all submissions, so I plan to design a few experiments to establish the Venting option,the funace option, the don't worry about a thing option, I think with the Distillate option..way too dangerous (I have been warned,thank you) and the selling to penguin latitudes not at all viable, cant go any further South.

"I once drove a diesel truck on a mix of 20L petrol,20L powerparrafin and 10liter engine oil with no harm done and no differance in engine power" Sincerely hope you are correct Jurie, but wonder about it's Build-year and the duration + distance travelled of your driving this Diesel Truck?, is it still running today? I'm a little concerned about the operative "ONCE" (as in 1 time only?) But hope springs eternal Best Regards, Metman

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#40
In reply to #26

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 3:07 AM

Ok, the emergency mix used for the about 1985 Nissan was only used once but it did no harm.

The SA railway diesel locomotives ran for years with 15% petrol added until diesel became more available.

The knocking sound of specialy a cold, idling, diesel engine is because the first fraction of droplet delivered by the injector is not immediately ignited...this cause a harmful explosion. With a little petrol added, the feul ignite at the right moment, burns evenly and prevent knocking.

If the feul sistem could run with no lubrication, you could run a diesel engine on petrol alone.

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#11

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 4:13 AM

Hello Metman,

Not sure is its a viable option for you but heating the Diesel will distill out the Petrol.

This then can be onsold, if not wanted by yourself.

Adding Petrol to your engine mix will eventualy bring about a bent conrod as it works more by a thump than a steady push.

Cheers

Peter

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 4:23 AM

It is not commercially good to try redistillate this mixture in cracking process, if you have less than 100 tonns of contaminated fluel. Just open a can and wait for while gasoline will evaporatе out from diesel maybe a solution, but you will loose a lot of diesel, because gasoline and diesel have close boiling ponts. And you will contaminate diesel by vaipors of water and dust from air.

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#15

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 4:51 AM

Of course if you add enough extra diesel the percentage will come down..but you need a BIG tank ...

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 6:14 AM

OR lots of small batches.

Correct me if i'm wrong (i'm a spark ignition guy from day-one):

Petrol has a horrid cetane #, the big problem would be the delay between injection and the onset of combustion can cause fast pressure rise.

Are cetane 'improver additives' available?

I'd try consuming it as motor fuel; sneak up on it! I'd start w/ half a tank of ~2% petrol blend; if this is OK, good! then try 3%, if not: fill tank w/ plain fuel for a 1% mix.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 6:38 AM

Previous post was incomplete:

The assumption made is that you have your own fleet, & that you have multiple similar vehicles; once data is gleaned, it could be applied in many places, at your own facility.

I would not offer this for re-sale!

If you are thinking of utilising this now, WHY DO YOU FLUSH?

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#35
In reply to #16

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 8:07 PM

I am sure you can avoid this by adding 2 to 3 percent lubricating oil to the contaminated Diesel. This would take care of the knock and also avoid any wear on the injectors which the contaminated fuel may cause as Gasoline is vaporizing oil and by itseltf would cause heavy erosion on the injectors and the pump elements as used in older Diesel engines. I do not know how the fuel pumps in modern Diesel engines with Common Rail fuel systems work. In my time it was always a fuel pump with plungers

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#18

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 6:39 AM

My personal take is that if you are running some old style diesel motor, you can probably use it without harm, but if that is a very modern engine, I would be reluctant to use it with 10% petrol in it.

The reason being is that petrol does not lubricate as well and you could be damaging the pump and/or injectors.

There are two possible alternatives that I see:-

1) Add more diesel and get the amount of petrol down to 2.5% or less.

2) add some cheap lubricating oil, to replace the missing lubrication, say 0.25% and burn that, but this method may cause a diesel exhaust filter to catch more particles....

Best wishes.

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#19

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 6:43 AM

Add more diesel to bring the percentage of gasoline down to a level where it is safe to sell.

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#20

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 7:22 AM

Man,

the best way I think, try honestly sell it to someone up North. Do not use it in your climate!

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#21

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 9:59 AM

Would it be viable to use for heating oil at this mixture?

Chas

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 10:15 AM

Hello Capblanc, Thank you Yes, this was my second option to consider, to use as furnace fuel. Some Burners are tolerant to 7% H2O + small quantity Ash & Sulpher the 10% Gas will be ok but selling price is very low + tranportation to Inland destinations almost cost prohitbitive in my case being at a coastal Port in SA, min of 1000Km to nearest User and return empty

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 11:35 AM

You have a chance of blowing-up your furnace with you. Gasoline will make it burning too fast.

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#25

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/21/2008 7:35 PM

I remember that truckers used to add used motor oil to the fuel tanks to extend the fuel milage. I do not remember the ratio that was used, but I would bet someone at CR4 does. Do you use the fuel, or sell it to others? Re mixing to the 5-7% ratio should not be a problem to any of the desiel engines that are not very late emissions type.

With the current cost of fuel, why not try to sell it to a desiel powered ship and advise them to remix to correct to 5%. The supply and demand will bring the corrected price. Good luck.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 4:26 AM

Hello and Big thank you BobC, I like/luv your idea to correct by REMIXING volumes to facilitate selling to Diesel-powered Ships very much, little or no transportation overheads. I will consult with the first Captain I have the opportunity to speak with, I know a few visiting our Port.Where was my mind? I truly missed the wood because of the trees!But I walk away enlightened, Thanks to everyone! Thanks to CR4. Metman.

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 10:21 AM

that's good idea from the point of sale. But very BAD from the ppint of safety at sea!

Ships have conditions which may lead to explosion and fire with fatalities because when storage tanks are agitated in motion in tropical climate and gasoline vapours concentrated in tanks it may go out of control due to static electricity....

You must realize that your problem is your loss and deal with it without trying to endanger life of others.

Better safe then sorry.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 10:56 AM

Hello G.M., Thank you, Safety above all at all times

I am indeed well aware that I have a massive potential loss on my hands and it is indeed entirely mine to carry, that is precisely why I am here on this knowledge base to minimise my loss wherever-however possible without risk to others or their equipment. I have pointed out that I would be speaking with the first Captain I have the opportunity to meet and discuss the possibilities, I am sure that all are more than qualified to advise on every aspect concerning fuel on board and that if there are volatility concerns as you have kindly indicated then no doubt I will be duly informed and instructed as how to overcome and reach a satisfactory conclusion if my price is attractive enough to the Shipping Line.

There will be no white flag above my door at this early stage of my investigation. I will go down with this ship if I have to ... Have a Good Morning/ Day/Evening/Night wherever you all are

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 11:18 AM

I am afraid that not every Cap or even Chief Engineer will properly assess the hazard.

Ocasionally a shipowner/operator would make a fatal desicion without informing captain, and get compensated by insurance... after all.

I spent 10 years at sea and have seen awful things. And I survived, therefore a warning.

Nothing personal but we are here to share what we have learned.

Ships cause a lot of harm when they die.

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 7:05 AM

Good work.

/Ari (orpheuse)

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 8:47 AM

Thanks Ari, Wonderful when it all comes together, and I appreciate your concern for my safety and those in close proximity to my facility. Best Regards to 1and ALL@ CR4, Iain/Metman.SA

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#34
In reply to #29

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 4:46 PM

Please use the diesel it will not do any harm; If you want to be sure that you wil have enough lubrication, you can add a bit of engine oil...even propperly filtered old enjin oil! Say 1 to 2%. [Just do not strike a match to see how much feul is in the tank!]

I drove DKW cars with 2 stroke enjins for many years with a petrol and used engine oil mix for many years.

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#46
In reply to #25

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 2:20 PM

I remember that truckers used to add used motor oil to the fuel tanks to extend the fuel milage. I do not remember the ratio that was used,

About 3% but since it were frowned on dumping used oil to the ground just put in fuel tank

And about 10 gallons gasoline to 300 gallons diesel when cold weather came.

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#33

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 4:40 PM

Another thought came to mind.

What's your electricity supply like where you are?

There are medium sized "jet" powered turbine/generator sets used worldwide as back-up supply for peak demand periods. Your fuel mix sounds reasonably consistant, so the turbine could be tuned for your particular fuel and you could power your whole facility (and maybe even a few others) while safely using the mixed fuel.

You obviously have relatively large storage already, so "demand levelling" should not be too difficult.

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#38
In reply to #33

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/23/2008 2:32 AM

Hi JaE, Damn good question , One word: AWFUL, it is in severe crisis as is our Currency. The entire country is up in arms over our Elec Supply with little hope of a quick recovery. I will have a look re:"Jet" Generators ... New to me with my focus elsewhere. Thanks again Down-under

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#36

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/22/2008 11:13 PM

Hi I would recommend when flushing the tank with 10,000 L only allow 1,000 L to mix with the batch , and save the 9,000 L to flush the next tanker .

use the 9,000 L to pre flush next tank and mix 1,000 L of that with the batch,then final flush with 1,000 L new petro.

Instead of 10% petro you are now at 1% . Is this satisfactory ? And your final flush was !00% petro so the shipping tanker is free of that thick stuff and you have extracted all the fuel from the tanker . good job

If you want to go one step better the 9,000 L can be broken into 1 , 2 or 3 steps of flushing and kept separate always flushing from first container first ; second second and ,third is third .







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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/23/2008 2:18 AM

Hi Guest, I see you are "Thinking out of the box" ... nice Box too, I thank you. Great answer, attack the Root-cause of the failing process, Pity they only allow me one vote to Rate your idea. Also begining to think since posting this problem my thinking process has been somewhat attenuated with my own product, the fumes probably!

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#39

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 12:02 AM

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#41
In reply to #39

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 4:43 AM

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 7:41 AM
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#43
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Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 7:45 AM

GA. Nice job of this.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 10:09 AM

This clown is trying to sell his snake oil in other threads too:

Sinking_Septic_Tank

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#45
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Re: Diesel Contamination

10/27/2008 10:16 AM

I hope the economy gets back to where it needs to be so the clowns can go back to the circus, where they belong.

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