Fun With Math - The American Financial Meltdown

HOLY CRAP!!!!! That is insane.....

And here I am complaining (?) that the repairs on my car just cost me 800$...but then again, nobody's bailing me out....totally agree with your assessment of the situation; esp. the "Give me a simple honest baker, farmer or a whore...at least they actuall sell something." AND the Guantanamo part...

Guantanamo too good for them. Then again it would be harsher the the country clubs they put white collar criminals in.

This just in... US Federal Budget Deficit = 237.2 Billion Dollars ($237,200,000,000.00).

At $1 per second it would take 7,521.6 years to pay off.

Anybody catch the American Experience program on PBS about the great depression. Eerily similar, even down to the "I'm special" attitudes of the big bankers and brokers. Seems we kicked off that one too. Maybe that's where our technical leadership should focus - "We make better world-wide depressions than anybody else!"

However, I need to point out that I'm a softy about hurting people. Gitmo would only bore the bankers and might expose them to sandfleas. Horrors! To paraphrase Ebeneezer, "Have they abolished all the chain gangs? Are there no prison farms?"

According to the CIA, population of the US is 303,824,640 (July 2008 est.). Of those, 61,146,753 (male 31,257,108/female 29,889,645) are under 15.

That leaves 242,677,887 individuals who (I assume) are liable as taxpayers.

$5,000,000,000,000 / 242,677,887 = $20,603.44.

Better start saving!

According to the US Labor Department, there are about 145 million employed US workers.

5 Trillion divided by 145 million = $34,483.00. This is the amount that each working American owes toward that bailout.

I am sure that number will rise because there is a feeding frenzy going on by everyone and their mother to get their thumbs into that pie.

Since the US Government is already running in the red, this money will be borrowed, principally from Asia, and will be a debt that will be passed onto our children to pay off and most likely to our children's children.

The current US National Debt has passed the 10 Trillion dollar mark, or twice the current financial bailout cost. That means that the actual working man burden is actually closer to $69,000.00 each and we are not done yet. The national average working yearly salary is only about $50,000. Simply put, we owe more money than the sum total of all our wages for one year. All of us would need to surrender 100% of our pay for the next 16 months to pay off the national debt (assuming that debt was at 0% interest). The US National debt is at 65% of our total GDP. Of that about 37% of the GDP is publicly owned debt.

It gets worse. If we add in all the unfunded government obligations such as Medicade, Medicare, Social Security, pensions, etc., the real number comes out to 60 Trillion dollars! If we printed a $1.00 bill every second we would still need 1.9 million years to print that amount of money.

"If we printed a $1.00 bill every second we would still need 1.9 million years to print that amount of money."

Better start printing hundred dollar bills then...

The thing is that money doesn't get printed.

It is all electronically generated. No actual currency is printed up.

Some of it must be; if not, what the hell are all those pieces of paper in my pocket?!?

Then what the heck is this paper in my wallet?

I understand your point, and it is a good one, but there IS a major amount of PRINTED currency in circulation, and as inflation heats up, there will be more and more. Just because the Treasury creates ELECTRONIC money to start with doesn't mean that there will not, sooner or later, be a demand for that "current-cy" ( lol :) ) in paper form.

Feds create $$$, loan to Citi via wire transfer, Citi lends it to regionals, regionals hold payroll for small companies, Joe the plumber gets paid on Friday afternoon, and stops at the bank on the way home to CASH his check so he has money for Bud Lite and Marlboro's over the weekend...there's your paper.

For all the money that people have deposited into a bank, the bank itself only has 10% of that money on hand. That's so you can take out some cash to buy your six pack of beer. A lot of people just make that purchase using a debit card.

The rest is reflected being available electronically.

If everybody was to go to the bank right now and demand all their money throughout the United States, we'd have another 1929.

The majority of money transacted today is done electronically. Whether it be done by writing a check or using a credit card, it's all done electronically.

understood and I was (btw) speaking tongue-in-cheek...and even though I ain't no "financial master", I get your point...and yah, the Americas (and some part of the rest of the world - germany and Italy come to mind), are in with us....though times ahead...

regards,

They (Europe) are actually ahead of us. 15 of the European nations that use the Euro are officially in a recession.

Hoping for a speedy recovery.

Hello Rick@cae:

That is scary!. Can I have the contract for the ink and paper and guillotines and printing machines?

You have to bear in mind this situation which affects most of the 'Western World' in some way, was brought about by two CEO's in two companies, who were promising the earth to people, in the form of loans which bore no relation to any income whatsoever!

What happened to all the share holders and owners who run those two companies. They made billions before the boat went down.

It hardly takes a genius, and I am aiming my eyes at the US Tax man here, to workout that a company that lends this amount of money, cannot earn enough to finance those loans. So in fact it is the US Government and Federal Government who are to blame as well.

Would it not make sense to limit the size of loan companies of any kind to a turn over of 100 billion? And also stop anyone who has anything to do with those companies, from having a finger in any other company?

I am just a simple ordinary person, and I can figure this out, why can't anyone else who matters say something, at the 1,000000000000 mark? It still would have involved a whole lot of people losing their homes, and the Government would have had to step in somewhere to help at some point. But, it would have been less serious to the US and all other lending institutions and banks, pretty must all over the world.

It is just a case of the rich and greedy, wanting to get even more rich and greedy, with no thought or admission of the consequences. Disgusting!

Just a thought..........

Hello Physicist?:

I guess I am feeling that at the moment, that's all.

I am in the UK most of the time, my original England............It has hit hard here so what the US is feeling right now I dred to think

Take care.............

We in OZ went through that pay it off process. The Keating Govt left almost $100 Billion debt, it took almost 10 years to pay it off, with major cuts to all sorts of programmes and large public asset sales. The same party are back in power and are talking seriously about spending us back into deficit. It will be even harder next time as there are no public assets left to sell.

I wish you well folks, it won't be fun.

If you listen very, very carefully, you can hear them laughing at us.

Why didn't Bill Gates stand for president? He could have just shut everything down, start it all up again, and, everything would be fine!

As Bill Gates observed some years ago, to make all this STOP go to the START

But first, the blue screen of death...

Reboot time about three years?

Hello Randall:

Why didn't Bill Gates stand for president?

In my opinion a very good point! At least he would have known what he was doing!

Hello Physicist,

Try another way: the population of the USA is about 300 Million. So 5 Trillion Dollars is only 17 thousand dollars for every man, woman and child in the USA,

I have a question. Does this include illegal aliens and those on welfare support?

"So 5 Trillion Dollars is only 17 thousand dollars for every man, woman and child in the USA, or about $60k per family. No problem then..."

So, are you saying going to write the check for your share?

Are you suggesting that my irony (or was that heavy sarcasm) wasn't obvious enough? [and BTW, not being a US resident, I already paid on account - probably several times over)

I agree. Since the world's economy is largely acting as a parasite to the US economy, perhaps the rest of the world should consider a bailout plan for the US. After all, many of the products made off-shore are being made there with lower cost labor. I also read an interesting byline in the newspaper recently about the wholesale flight of illegal immigrants from the US in the last few months. Seems it's not the "land of Opportunity" anymore. Maybe thats how tho get rid of the illegals until a wall is erected.

The main reason there may seem to be a "wholesale flight" is because in a contracting economy, the lowest strata gets hit first - the low income jobs, the part timers, the 'expendable' jobs are cut first - so the opportunities for the immigrant looking to get a foothold have been reduced. When the Vice President-in-Charge-of-This-n-That at the Fourth National Bank and Trust of East Gibbip has to trim back because his annual bonus has been cut from 2 mill to just 500K, the first thing he does is fire his gardener.

Get real. America underpays for goods made abroad, then you allow its banking system to run out of control and exports* the adverse consequences to the rest of the world. In my book that makes the USA a predator, rather than the rest of the world parasites.

*And remember that you are only able to do this because through the 20C you combined (some) European-style education and enterprise with being a country with adequate natural resources - oh, and you missed out on the wartime destructions of your homeland.

Hmmmm, my history book says that a significant chunk of our 20th century debt was/is the military costs of WWI and WWII and the excused loans provided to rebuild Europe and Japan.

Perhaps we could re-institute those loans to help pay off our debt!! While we're at it we could re-institute all those IMS/World Bank forgiven loans that have been heavily underwritten by the US.

Hooker <--- who just loves trollers posting as Guest

As I read it, the 'parasites' of #26 were the low cost labour - not exactly those to whom the US made those loans.
I haven't checked, but I think you will find that in recent times the US has talked the talk on loans and aid, but has not always been as forthcoming as you might imagine.

But what the heck - China will probably be the next dominant power anyway.

I understand, but I was responding to #35, with the usual portrayal of us as the great satan and never acknowledging the good we do, like disaster relief or forgiving recovery loans, etc.

Not to mention hiding behind a Guest posting.

I'm a Veteran. I tend to get on my high horse about this stuff.

Hooker

PS - I think you're probably right about China.

Since the world's economy is largely acting as a parasite to the US economy.

You aren't obliged to outsource manufacturing, to import cheap goods or have Nike and such like using virtual slave labour. Look to the greedy capaitalist at home before blaming everybody else....

PMSL...Take your head out of your Arse and smell the roses...

Del

Meow Del,

very very well said! As I said in another thread it is all down to rich greedy people, who have too much already. (My opinion)! Trying to get even more rich and greedy.

These kinds of people have clauses (sorry Del no insult OK) in their employment contract, where, even if they lose a billion for the company, they will still make a profit in terms of the leaving penalties paid to them.......Like for instance several million in share options, which they can cash in when the time is right? IF they get sacked. Or perhaps that should be 'terminated' as millionaires do not get 'sacked'.

Yes, maybe I am a little bitter. Where is the equality? There is still rich and there is still the rest who the rich sh-t on and get paid to do so.

After a certain point money perhaps is just another 'item' like anything else they own. It is not real, they do not go hungry or loose a house if they screw up. Like normal people do!

Sorry Del, bit of a rant there.......

I agree that there are greedy capitalists in the US. They exist in every country. We in the US seem to have far more than our share of them. Perhaps it is because of the decrease in morality and/or concern for others that has occurred in the US over the last 50 years. I've been around long enough to observe it.

However, not all individuals in the US belong to that group, Thank You.

Hello agua_doc:

I would just like to say, when I remarked about greed and wealth, I was not SPECIFICALLY talking about the US. Every Country in the World, BAR NONE, has these kind of individuals. Not pointing any fingers at people, but I am pointing a finger at the 'so called' Communist States, where everyone should be equal (in theory), but there is as many money grabbers in China and Asia as anywhere else.

Not making judgements, but I think there is more than a little hypocrisy going on there.

I say again, I am not pointing at Heads of State, because I do not know all of them. (I would need an awful big table to invite them all round for Dinner!) But, I can see no reason why the Communist Government, as a whole, should not live very much more frugally than they do. Absolute hypocrisy. When they preach one thing and do the exact opposite!

Take care........

And once again I apologise for the 'rant'!

Guest,

I was being satyrical about the "Brooke Plan". That was a throwaway pun for OF Brits.

Best not ask the EU how to rebuild the economy. Many countries in the EU are either in a recession or have already had one quarter of negative growth and heading for the second.

For what it is worth, the US has yet to have the first quarter of negative growth. Right now I am just gritting my teeth and hoping that we never dip into the red.

However, like a kidney stone, this will pass.

Don't grit too hard. The BEA preliminary data for the third quarter shows -0.3%.

And don't forget that the Treasury can simply print more money anytime they want - a couple of presses churning out $1,000 bills will take care of this in no time.. lol.

The big problem is the PERCEPTION of our system by other countries - China and Japan and the UK and Canada, for example, have no problem buying our debt paper because they believe that our economy is structurally sound and will sooner or later rebound. But if our reputation in the world economy slips to the level of a 3rd world backwater dictatorship that prints money like it was toilet paper and encourages inflationary money supply policies, then it could get rough. As long as OTHER economies have faith in ours, we'll be fine, sooner or later. When they stop having faith, that's when we'll really be in trouble, because we'll have to exchange HARD money for our debt paper.

"When they stop having faith, that's when we'll really be in trouble, because we'll have to exchange HARD money for our debt paper."

Exactly why the move from Gold and Silver Certificates has allowed such a disaster. If you dont have the backup precious metal you couldnt previously print the currency. Now, all our money is phony; it depends on the 'good faith' people have in our government. Frankly, I lost that some time ago.

The money will come out of your 201ks!

You may be surprised to know just how much this possibility is being discussed in military veteran's forums around the net.

Especially if there is any move to further restrict firearm ownership or creating a federal civilian defense force, which to us are just more indicators on the way to undoing our heritage.

Money is a huge manipulator in our society today, but just one of many.

Hooker

Hi All, What would happen if the all the nations of the world agreed to write off all debt and start again. Would we with hindsight as foresight get it right or would we be in the same mess again in no time at all?????

Does the following partial list of recessions answer your question?
1807-1814
1873-1879(1896)
1918-1921
1929-1931
1953-1954
1957-1958
1973-1975
1980-1982
1990-1991
2001-2003

This subject just begs for such perspectives... hope many will want to take a few minutes and add some... like: 1)how many jobs we've lost to overseas workers... how much of a surcharge (per employee) on these jobs by the companies who sent them overseas would it take to pay off some of this debt or 2)what about a telethon...

I'll add #2 for starters.

Suppose we could have a worldwide telethon to raise money for the poor old U.S. of A. to help overcome the dreaded disease of "spending other people's money". Let's suppose we had a wonderful response and got 1 billion people to make pledges. They each would have to pledge $500 per year for 10 years to pay off the debt in 10 years -- beyond two presidential terms. And considering the standard of living around the world, how easy do you think it would be to find that many people who could afford such a pledge? I don't think we should hold our breath.

Come on folks, add some sobering perspectives to this thread.

Hi Anonymous Hero,

For an order of magnitude and perspective this math indicates the redistribution of wealth we have witnessed called "bailouts".

An amount equal to giving to each US wage earner between age 18-65 $400,000.00 which in my mind would better cause an economic recovery.

Hello wire,

I am with you on this. The figures are really worrying and, as you say, put that money into the 'working' mans hand, and the Country would be one of the better off in the world

Take care................

Hello AH,

I was under the impression that the bailout so far was Seven Hundred Billion Dollars which is a huge sum of money. Where exactly does the figure of 5 Trillion Dollars come from?

Ah! Do a little searching on the net and you realize that this thing is so much bigger than 700 billion. And if you keep digging you find that the bailout is just a fraction of the whole picture.

My whole point was to raise the consciousness of people to the magnitudes that are casually spurted out. We have been so used to hearing the words billions of dollars and now trillion of dollars that we have lost all perspective to what that really means.

As children we grew up hearing about a million dollars and we think of how huge a million of anything really is.

It only becomes mind boggling when you compare and contrast what trillions of anything is compared to a million.

Like I said, at $1.00 per second you would be a millionaire in 12 days, but it would take over 158,000 years to earn 5 trillion dollars at that same rate.

I just want to inject some perspective into what our Congress is proposing to do.

Hello ba/ael:

These huge unfathomable figures I heard mentioned on the UK TV. And, the last thing I heard was 5, going up to 10 trillion Dollars.

I mean I am not there is the States going through the figures but, we also get the US news and those figures were also mentioned by the US TV? Otherwise where would the UK and European Networks get the information? It would then have to be an 'estimation'?

Take care...........

Hello babybear,

The U.S.A. national debt stands at about 10.6 trillion dollars according to this site. If you are correct, it will increase by roughly fifty or even one hundred percent in the near future.

I have seen the 5 trillion figure on one or two sites on the internet, but there was no backup or explanation as to how they arrived at that figure. I have not gone through the figures either. There is no question the situation is serious, but it doesn't really help to exaggerate the figures if, in fact that is what is being done by the media.

Quite a challenge for the world leaders. I am not sure just how the Group of 20 will resolve this dilemma. Not a pleasant job, I'm sure.

I remember when I wa younger, a million sounded like a lot. Then came a billion, followed by a trillion... The newest number that I have been acquainted with is a quadrillion, or a thousand trillions. That is what this whole fiasco is supposed to cost after it is all said and done... That is a thousand trillions, right?!? Help there baby bear, how are you doing my friend?

OOOOOOOPS, I meant to say HELLO there baby bear... not help ooooops

Hello Ferris, where you been then? Hope you enjoyed yourself! I will help you like this. you spell hello!!!!!!!! Will be in touch and thanks for the post and help/hello. You certainly know how to get me confused, right! I cannot recall without checking when I last PM'ed or posted you, so will look shortly (sorry, didn't mean to call you shortly! It's Ferris init?) Take care my friend.....................

Hello ba/ael:

I fully accept what you say. However, I have heard said on 'UK', but often no ref' to the source of the item read out, that the two main companies, and forgive me as I cannot recall the proper or full names, 'Fanny Mae' is one, and whatever the other is, were worth five trillion each. And I suppose the logic there is, if two have gone under then there stands to be a potential of 10 trillion Dollars in debt. Whether that is the 'true' worth of these gigantic companies I do not know. It may be the cost of the bailout (for want of another word), that has added and included in the potential cost?

I agree TV News gets more like cheap newspapers everyday. Often not substantiating their remarks.

At the moment I do not have a TV so can't refer to anything I have seen in the last six weeks or so.

I think I mentioned in another post that all Lending should perhaps stop at a hundred million Dollars or Pound? To have let these companies reach half a trillion, has to be poor foresight? There should have been a regulatory body which would have stopped this kind of disaster.

"There should have been a regulatory body which would have stopped this kind of disaster."

Then you will be surprised to know that this situation was actually government created. To create a regulating body (and it was tried) would run counter to the all the efforts from the 1970's put in place by government that caused this meltdown.

Look up the CRA of 1977. That's Community Reinvestment Act. It was bitterly opposed by the banks at the time, but became law. It was bitterly fought by some in Congress in the mid 90's, but was strengthened by Congress amid warnings that this could happen.

No one in Congress will accept any responsibility for this. Yes, they meant well, but...

Hello Anonymous Hero:

I am not familiar with the 'CRA' as I live in the UK mostly.

It is not until some like this that there is any mention of 'control' for this, or any kind of business. However, with this being a lot more serious than just a 'US domestic problem', it is bad management in the extreme to not have some kind of net.

How dare you be so blatantly critical to hold our elected officials to such a standard, realize they are bearers of the highest educations in the world how could they be held accountable. <sarcasim>

Are you trying to say that removing the rules put in place to prevent another stock market crash was fundamentally poor judgement. I'm sick with the reality of this.

Then thank the 1979 republican majority congress and former US President Bill Clinton.

Hello ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am back ... Here is Ferris (I know, I know it is supposed to be heres Johnny but....)

There are many, many things that I do not get that are not happening in these days... Why is there not any sort of repercussions going against the brokers and the "big wigs" who have been paid off in the form of millions, tens of millions, or hundreds of millions of dollars? Brokers and the big wigs are just as culpable as the as wipes that allowed Fannie and Freddie to grow and become the lumbering behemoths that they are. Add to this the fact that certain political parties wanted to have housing more available for those individuals that have started defaulting all over the place (those that maybe did not have a big enough down payment, credit, income, WHATEVER... the buyers were duped into the purchase of the house with an adjustable rate mortgage which was [possibly] kept artificially low, which when the % went up the investors would start making more and more money... that is if the buyers could afford $4-$6 thousand dollars a month. Imagine the return for the investors HUGE amounts of money funneling in...), now that party is intalled in ALL parts of the gov't, house, senate and the POTUS.

Sad the backlash was propagated against the Republicans as if they had pushewd for the housing party themselves...yet it was Clinton that got the ball rolling, before him was that slug named Carter...talking about getting more affordable housing for those that blah, blah, blah... Don't get me wrong the GOP is guilty in part as well! We have been led astray by both parties; especially, with the advent of the "bail out" bill that is the call of the parties now. Where is the oversight? None, zip, zilch not there... These people can do whatever they want now with the money that they do not deserve. It is not just here in the States. The reserve banks cut their loan rates around the globe half a percent a while ago (a month?), is that enough culpablility? A one world banking system is trying to be had by these individuals...

What next? A one world government?

Oh, sorry about that...

Well, I am back how are you all doing?!?!?!?

That's a pretty good summation as far as I can see. The Republican Party folded like the house of cards they are and let the Democrat slease have the country. Too many back room deals. Too many lined pockets. Too much whoring for pork and just plain whoring.

I know that I am nobody to anybody outside of my family (?!?!??!?) but I have been saying for quite a long time that the peeps in Washington need to be washed out with a big, huge ENEMA... Bring in an independent party candidate and house and senate for a cycle or two and then let all three parties enjoy life together. The GOP has people in its midst that are saying that the party needs to come back towards the middle right and not be sooooo far out. The dems need to realize this big time! Socialism might work else where, if that is what the dems want - then by all means let them go over to that other area where socialism is booming and leave us with our Government...here intact. Oh and by the way, that would includes sending barry o back to kenya, unless he can prove to 100 percent of the people in this Nation that he was actually born here and not there... I am not convinced ...

Hello Ferris,

See if these facts square with your summation...

Sad the backlash was propagated against the Republicans as if they had pushewd for the housing party themselves...yet it was Clinton that got the ball rolling

It was a republican congress that put the bill together and Pres. Clinton signed it into law in 1999.

yet it was Clinton that got the ball rolling

It was Woodrow Wilson that signed into law the Federal Reserve Act.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I think it was HE who was wanting to get the PEOPLE (we) into the houses in a much easier way.

Notice I wasn't being down on just the dems...the gop are just as guilty in all of this. They are thinking of their own pocket books/investments/foreing accounts, whatever.

He, Clinton, was a dem. Yes or no? So, it falls on his name... Congress? It does fall on their shoulders as well. They are just not as "visible" as the top dog, the POTUS.

Ferris

And it was a lame duck congress at that

You hit the nail right on the head there Ferris, so A GA 2 U.

Wow, just like that it begins... I have said on numerous occasions that the GA's are a cool thing. A warm fuzzy feeling that another person has enjoyed what it is that has been said. Agrees with, finds humorous, whatever... My first time back on the forum, I have been spending time elsewhere and with the kids - you know times are kinda strange right now... Bailouts, wall street, and a lame election cycle that showed how little EACH of the parties feels about US here in the United States of the America. McCain and Obama? Come on there are WAY better candidates available that would represent US better. I digress, here I am...back again and I get a nod right off the bat. And then a second! Dang it, I was feeling really good. And here I come back on to this thread and WHOA! my GA is now an honorable mention...what gives with that? Don't like my views, ideas...deal with it. I thought we were supposed to be "mature adults" here...I know that there are a few here on CR4. Just seems to be a few (hmmmmmmmmmmmm, think, think, think..............) weasles around..!

Ferris...glad to be back again

Hello Ferris,

congrats on your first baby!

Take care...............

A "good" war is fantastic for an economy. Lets just bomb someone that rest of the world can agree with.

a good carpet bombing can make your whole day

My vote is to drop the first bomb at the headquarters for these Bozos...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454191,00.html

Tell you what, from personal experience with my own company working with our division in China. I have a better target in mind.

I am usually a pretty open minded individual, but dealing with my "colleagues" over there has really tainted my opinion of the Chinese mentality. I think the world has something very real to fear from these B***ards.

From the article:

"Human Rights Council's chambers at U.N.'s European headquarters in Geneva, which may soon undergo a $1 billion renovation — but only after a $1.9 billion facelift of the U.N.'s New York offices is completed."

This article is, by far, the most obscene thing I've ever read.

"My vote is to drop the first bomb at the headquarters for these Bozos..."

Drop 10 JDAMS's on them, you don't want any of them to get away!

I did not read the article at first. Just the link showing Fox News. I thought Fox was the target.

After reading what the UN idiots have done with that money, I can hold off on the Chinese.

The Chinese are enjoying their economic boon for, what I believe are the following reasons:

It's a totalitarian society, speak out against the regime and you will be jailed, or worse.

The average worker makes about $.35 an hour.

There is no EPA or OSHA .

How can any country compete against that?

I've seen many company's close their doors because they can't meet EPA regulations. That work went overseas, to countries that have no such standards. But, guess what, the wind blows, and the water flows. All we've done is to move the source of the pollution. I believe that any country that does business with the US, should meet our clean air, and water, standards. That's not going to happen, there's just too much money to be made the way it is now. I think it's immoral for the US to do business with any such polluting countries, (It's coming here anyway).

http://www.naturalnews.com/022357.html

Soon, things will change in China. Their population will demand higher wages, and cleaner air and water. They will want to afford the products that they export.

I have no problem with the Chinese people. There is a sizable naturalized Chinese population in my area. They are hard working, honest, and a welcome addition to this country.

I go way out of my way to buy locally produced products. I've not been to a Wal-Mart in over 5 years. I try to buy stuff from the US, or responsible countries. That's not always possible, but I do try. I heat my house with wood, in an American made stove. I know I'm probably pissing into the wind, but hell, at least I try.

Hello Bricktop:

I don't think you are pissing in the wind at all. I think you are living the way all countries would ideally love to live.

Apart from the financiers out there, it makes no sense to me to make something or, import a crop, that could as easily be made or grown in the intended country of use.

You are right. The Chinese Gov' has had it easy. No one is going to go on strike or just ask for a little more money if the threat of hanging or deportation to northern China is likely.

You can almost see the news stories in 10/15 years, where the 8,000,000 soldiers are flying into major cities to crack down on the people asking for a living wage.. Better be careful though. Because 8 million is a lot of strength in an army. But compared to the number of working people in china it is nothing!

At the moment they pretty much supply most of their countries need in food etc. And farmers lives have not changed much there. But, when those millions and billions of peoples start asking for real things like extra money, and, as you say, to be able to afford the stuff that is exported now............That is when the true revolution starts.

Personally, I cannot see how a country two thirds larger in terms of population, than the whole of the rest of the world, can ever be truly Democratic. But, that is what will have to happen if the people want freedom inside and outside China.

Is it that the Chinese Government do not trust its own people, and is this why they have the largest firewall between themselves and all other countries?

Computers are not designed to be used like radios, where you can tell someone they can listen to a 'choice' of a few programs . Computing is dynamic and when people have had enough of the 'local' fair, it is natural for them to look outside.

That's it now. The rest of the China news will be coming up soon, thank you flaw listening....................