Redundancy in Belt Conveyors and Bucket Elevators

Hello gussosa:

can I just ask something. Is this design 'set in concrete' just waiting to be built or finished?

And, where are you going to store the machines? In specifically made storage? Because I am not sure you can 'store' the belts, which are machines, actually in with the soy?

Is it possible to build these silo on the dock or as an eXtension of the dock, baring in mind local weather. If you could do that you could make short work of filling any ship.

Is it going to be one huge silo or several slightly smaller ones? Because if the was an infestation or something like that your whole silo could be affected. And so loose half a million tons of soy.

These are just thoughts.

Are what you talking about 'ideas' at the moment? Just skimming the creme to get some ideas 'of your own'?

The 'redundancy issue, depends entirely where you are building the silo and how much space you have. I would have thought you could use a couple, or one big one, which had interchangeable pieces so if one got damaged you could remove that 'short' link and replace it with one of the multi use belts and conveyors?

Good luck. Some answers would be helpful if you can find the time please? I am going to search for conveyors.

By the way what is the max' size of conveyer you can fit into or next to the silo? I need to know that so I am searching for the right things.

And or what size ships you will be loading. And how long will you have to fill it?

Hi babybear, nice to see you again

I am in the feasibility studies stage here. Still, I have to deliver the quote on December 10th.

This is a horizontal silo (aka, flat storage). It won't be located at the seaport. There will be a continuous flow of trucks to the seaport (I suggested a very long enclosed belt conveyor but they thought I was nuts :D ) The problem is that the Port of Montevideo is crowded and the port authority won't allow taking space for a silo plant. There is space nearby, but the City Hall won't allow it because of the dust pollution.

Store the machines? No, no, no. I imagine them on three parallel trenches (wide and deep enough for maintenance) along the horizontal silo. The three of them will be ready for use. The operator would start one or two depending on the output required.

I don't like the idea of the horizontal silo either. I believe several flat bottom bins would be a much more flexible choice. Contamination isn't such a big problem, as the horizontal silo will have internal panels. Anyway, it is my personal opinion that horizontal silos are meant for millers (flour, feed or oil) who don't care about the quality differences between batches as long as the average gets the work done.

The redundancy issue came around because the customer was complaining of the huge cost of having a ship waiting at the port. Ok, so you must have some sort of redundancy, because any spare part takes at least two weeks to come from Brazil, Argentina or USA. At 7,000 USD/day that means 105,000 USD in losses.

Yes, some answers would be helpful. I asked the same question at bulk-online and a guy told me it is never done, because of the investment cost. I know why it is that way. A few years ago I designed two logistics companies. Uncertainty is the rule, not the accident, in that business. The way these companies manage uncertainty is by minimizing investments and growing in small stages, very carefully, to check how is the market going.

Another problem I have here is that my customer is a port operator who handles wood chips. He is just entering the grain business. In fact he knows very little about either the grain business or bulk material handling. So it is hard to get an answer from him.

Hello gussosa:

I thank you for your almost complete answer. You did not say what size ships will be used and how long it will take. You need to know this before you can plan any redundancy really.

How far away from the ship will the silo be?

I can understand the flat silo to perhaps match the city or should I say the Dock skyline? From the sound of it this client would not consider any redundancy as it is (to him) lost investment. There is also the real possibility that with fluctuating price at times, the soy market can sometimes becomes un-invest-able in some countries, simply because it can be that it is cheaper to ship it round the world than to use a native supply?

Have you checked out the cost, flexibility and bulk moving capabilities of the Vacuum loaders and unloaders in one unit? Is it feasible or too slow or, too expensive? Because the belts you can buy 'off the shelf' really.

I assume you know the size of the silo and the design, as you have mentioned it. If you have not been told, can you extrapolate from the silo details the storage capacity and how long it will take to empty that storage, if that is what will happen when a ship is loaded.

Is the silo one huge cavern or is it partitioned? Two partitions would, I would have thought to be a minimum.

Will you be loading from 'ground level'?

Thank you for the reply post by the way.

It is a little difficult to design a facility like this with all the necessary 'add-ons' to allow it to work, when your client will not spend his money!? Perhaps after your time is over there, you can check and see just how much he has to pay for 'waiting time Insurance? And send a 'I told you so letter? Not professional I know, but if the man will not allow a full spec discharge system, which it seems he needs for the size, then just be careful he does not sign over to you any of the responsibilities of his decisions.

Take care, and very good luck!

I don't know, and my customer probably doesn't know. He just told me to get 600 tons/hour out the facility, by truck.

He doesn't know where the facility will be located. Probably it will be next to a major highway, 13 km away of the port. That is the area were the City Hall usually allows logistics companies to build the largest warehouses.

Once at the port, the ships will be loaded from the truck using a big grainvac as you suggest. But he didn't ask me for that. I will check later after I get through the struggle of designing taking the decisions by the client.

I hope the picture of the flow diagram is downloadable and readable.

Yes, the horizontal silo will be partitioned, but I am supposed to just leave it to be. In the future they will decide how many partitions to make.

Hello gussosa,

I had to work on the image to view it. Can't read any text on the drawing.

So you do this type of schematic all the time? Or do you also draw conventional plans?

I am finding it hard to understand exactly what you want. Sorry but, if you can try to explain or sent web sites or something?

Take care....................

Usually I do a flow chart and a layout to start taking the decisions. When the time comes to specify the equipment I do a 3D model, as it is much easier to measure the lengths of the tubes and the heights of the elevators that way.

I will try to upload the pictures to a file sharing service.

Hello gussosa,

I will try to upload the pictures to a file sharing service.

Yes it would be nice to see your 3D work in detail, thank you.

Hello gussosa:

So this drawing is a 'Flow Chart'?

Now a few facts............I am assuming each truck will carry about 40 Tons?

He/you will have to load 1 truck in 4 minutes...............

This means 10 Tons a minute.........at the very least.

Your client thinks he use the same principles to move Soy, as he does wood-chip?

At that rate it will take 66.6 hours/2 days and 18 hours to load the ship, and working 24/7. We assume there in no traffic jams and hold ups which there .......will alway be!!! So to allow for any potential hold ups, you will have to work at a rate of more than 600 Tons...........Do you see what I mean?

He will need about 15/20 trucks ready and waiting for his exclusive use. Will those trucks load the wood-chip in between the Soy? Otherwise, he is going to have several trucks doing nothing between shipping?

Or is that side of things his job ? I think it is your job. It has to be otherwise you cannot draw a flow chart?

Does this look anything like your figures gussosa?

To download the flow chart:

http://depositfiles.com/files/9qerar6pt

To download the layout:

http://depositfiles.com/files/i35ud9wd9

There are differences between them because the layout was done months ago with other specifications and the flow chart is new. My partner in Argentina is doing the new layout. Still, I think you can get the idea.

Hello gussosa:

One opened in Word.

But I need to find the type of file you made the other one with. The Word file is the same as the one you published on CR4.

What is on the other one as I am having problem with the computer, it seems just as I get to copy and paste it freezes. It is something caused by Microsoft windows. But it cannot be rectifies at the moment.

So I do not want to download any CAD softwhere. Is there any other way you can send it, in Word perhaps?

Thank you for sending them by the way.

One is a pdf and the other a dwg (Autocad)

The first is the flow chart and the second the layout.

I haven't got a dwg to pdf converter here. Maybe on Monday or Tuesday I will be able to send another version.

Hello gussosa:

Thanks for the reply. Yes ok, it would be nice to see both. My machine is playing up a lot recently, so although I was going to join the place to download a reader or viewer, I am not sure it will not make my computer even more unstable?

I am sorry to him as I can't recall his name, but I was reading how it is an advantage having a reversing facility on a belt. It really is. It can literally do two jobs or as he said take over by doing a job or part of one in a different way? "Where there is a will there is a way". That is an old saying. But is still very true!

Take care my friend.

Thanks for the reply. Yes ok, it would be nice to see both. My machine is playing up a lot recently, so although I was going to join the place to download a reader or viewer, I am not sure it will not make my computer even more unstable?

The best pdf viewer is Foxit Reader. It is as fast as it gets.To view dwg files I use Brava. Foxit may give you one or two problems one in a while due to compatibility issues, but Brava has always been very reliable.

If your computer is too old try uninstalling your current software and installing old apps. OpenOffice 1.1.5 runs smoother than anything and is just fine unless someone throws docx files at you. Uninstalling Internet Explorer (look for IEradicator) and using Opera or Seamonkey instead for browsing and email enhances stability and safety by separating the web browser from the file manager.

A RAM memory manager like Bysoft Free Ram is a good idea to prevent most memory crashes. You may control how much memory is taken before opening a new app, quit the programs you are not using and only then open the new one.

Hello my friend gussosa:

I have only just got in after being out half the days.

I appreciate what you say and pretty much have that more or less planned. I have a memory problem and have to write a list as I do not have a printer at the moment, someone borrowed it and has not returned it.

So I will start very soon, perhaps after Xmas, to list all the hardware and software I want. Bin the others. And start afresh. But I have to wait for me to be in the mood to do it, and know I will not have any interruptions like people visiting in the middle of it all! Cos' that will screw me up entirely!

My computer is four years old and by no mean past its sell by date. But, the Library does need reorganising for sure! The shelves are full to over flowing.

I may even treat myself to a new laptop and then I can use it while I can also transfer files I want to keep onto DVD.

Part of the problem is a corrupt registry. It is limping rather than walking or running you know? I actually do not have that many files I want to keep. Probably no more than two gigs or so. I want to update to windows office or something similar as I has office 2003 and have found out last week that they are not updating it anymore. But it is the corrupt Reg' that is the main cause of a freeze up every half an hour.

Take care, and thank you for the contact.

Have you thought any more, or had a chance to look round draftsmen site to see what they have to work with for 3D drawing?

Not being rude, but from what I have seen your drawings are very 2D! Flat is the word. The same thing done some different software with not only make is 3D but more 'real', and you want it to look like it will all start to move and Soy will start to fall from the end of the belts right?

I have not had a CAD software and or hardware, so the names of the different packages to go with the different rendering apps are not automatically in my minds eye, you know? Can you tell me exactly what you have to run your CAD system?

I have given advice on 'SOLID WORKS', which from my limited understanding seems to Noe more versatile?

Can you send me some of the 3D stuff you have done, if any please?

I have to get on now as I have to cook my tea, Sorry, make that dinner!

Bye for now..............

You did not say what size ships will be used and how long it will take. You need to know this before you can plan any redundancy really.

Just checked this. The average shipment to be loaded is 40,000 tons. They asked for a slightly bigger horizontal silo just in case.

And there won't be any internal separations.

Hello gussosa: So far I have seen 1500 mth, and 2000 mth nuematic type grain loader/unloaders. If you do not want this type of loader please let me know. Thanks.

This is the pdf with address and names:

http://www.neuero.com/Shiploader/Ship%20loading%20Solutions.pdf

From the point of view of continuity in mass transfer your idea is very correct, redundancy will reduce the risk for queuing and related costs. I presume that the question if it is a real opportunity should be analysed from the economic point of view as all engineering problems in fact:

- how long would a maintenance operation take in case of incident and how much would it cost?

- how available would be (on the spot) spare parts?

- how much would it cost to store spare parts near to the site?

- is qualified manpower available rapidly for intervention?

and of course

- how high is the cost for redundancy?

If the balance shows a positive result for the customer then it is worthwhile to implement the redundancy which is technically feasible without problems. In fact since probability to failure at same time of 2 units will be low it is better to have 3 units for 50%+ of maximal load and use one as back-up in case of stop of one of the 2 other. The concept should make the repair intervention possible which ever unit stops even if the 2 other are in use. The repaired unit will be the back-up till an other unit requires a maintenance.

Hello gussosa.

In bulk handling applications where the impact of having a particular item go down is severe, yes duplication is at times used. I can show you specific examples of it. It does add to the complexity of the system to handle the diverts, merges etc.

Another possibility is to keep in stock virtually all the items to repair critical machines fast. If it is a conveyor, you keep a belt (or at least splice kits), rollers, head and tail wheels, and a complete motor/gearbox. This stock is reviewed monthly to see it is all there and usable. This option works if you have access to qualified mechanics all hours that a repair may be needed.

This option works if you have access to qualified mechanics all hours that a repair may be needed.

No, there are only three specialized mechanics in the country, and usually they are busy.

Can you show me those examples? Thanks.

Sorry it is taking me so long to get back with you on the topic of redundant equipment.

I have a ball forming process that uses three independent systems where only two would be needed to could keep up. Each system consists of bins, feeders, augers, elevators, and screeners. Not identical to your equipment but in the same family of dry bulk handling equipment. Any one or all three can feed the down stream system.

I have two elevators and their associated augers and diverts that set side by side that are set up for either/or operation.

I engineered a bulk grain storage system that has two separate elevators that feed the storage towers. These elevators also operate as either/or.

In all three cases the reason for the duplication is because the downstream equipment is either put in jeopardy if one of these items goes down or not quite as severe is the whole process is shut down and the lost production can never be recovered.

Thank you. Can you tell me the name of your company and where is it located? What kind of business is it? Cement, drugs?

All three of the mentioned systems are handling alumina (AL2O3). Most of it is powder in the 100 micron size range. Some of it is up to 1 inch in diameter depending on where it is at in the system. The stuff has a bulk density of around 150 lbs/cu.ft.

The third system I mentioned is handling Alumina but it is a converted animal feed products system that included grain. Al are located in the US state of Ohio.

At one point in my career I worked for a custom machinery company that designed custom automated equipment and material handling systems. Some of our customers were not used to the type of machinery that they were asking for. This was not a problem when they went into the project with a plan to train workers, handle breakdowns and still meet the thru put needs. In post 7 you mentioned a lack of qualified mechanics. Performing maintenance and repairs on standard elevators, belt conveyors, etc. is quite straightforward. Even small operations can often justify one mechanic. If no experienced mechanics are available, someone with mechanical aptitude can be mentored along by someone like you. When breakdowns occur that require three people to work on it, the operators, office people etc all work with the mechanic (with proper safety training of coarse). I mention this because I have went thru the heartbreak of seeing a well designed and properly implemented system taken out because the customer could not keep it running.

Just a completely off the wall thought: If industry is growing in the area and there are very few maintenance people why not start a company that provides routine maintenance and on call help.

Thanks for the information. For this project or for a future one I might suggest redundant conveyors and the customer will ask me if it is done somewhere.

In the specialized forums of www.bulk-online.com someone told me conveyors are just designed bigger that needed to be sure they will meet the demand and withstand the work. That's the same my partner (an experienced designer) told me, but the speech about proper installation and operation doesn't convince me. The same is said of gears and bearings and they still break down all the time.

Just a completely off the wall thought: If industry is growing in the area and there are very few maintenance people why not start a company that provides routine maintenance and on call help.

I am in my way for that. In another post I asked for manuals and courses because I haven't got hands-on training in the subject. My idea is to offer building, installation and maintenance services to grain merchants and millers. Currently I am just in sales.

You are welcome.

Thanks for the intelligent interchange!

I just remembered something that has great value when it can be implemented. There are at times opportunities to bypass broken machinery with some fairly simple changes. Here is an example I have in a system that I am working on right now.

A product bin has a discharge conveyor directly under it. There are several conveyors after this conveyor that eventually feed an elevator. If any of these downstream conveyors fail, we would just run the discharge conveyor backwards and run the material into a fork truck hopper instead of to the next conveyor.The down stream elevator has a chute beside the regular feed chute that you can carefully dump the contents of the hopper back into the elevator thus bypassing the intermediate conveyors that may be down for some reason. Another advantage of the ability to run the conveyor backwards is that when you clean out the bin, you can run the trash into a hopper or onto the floor.

I know this will probably not help with the specific grain conveyor you were talking about in your first question but the point I want to make is that with a little forethought, some flexibility can be designed into a system with no more than an extra chute or divert or motor starter.

Hello DaveB:

I was just saying to the OP that info you mention on two way belts is really useful. And would add almost nothing to a new belt. And I am sure it is something you could get 'retro fitted.

Nice one.

Thank You.

Have you thought about moving the grain with air handling equipment?

phoenix911

It is a beautiful idea, but the power consumption of a pneumatic conveyor for the same moving capacity is giganormous.

My only experience is in the grain industry, where pneumatic conveyors are used only in seed handling or pellet manufacturing companies to prevent damage to the product. However, my guess is that it works only where it the single technical solution available (in ship unloading) or when the capacities are very low.

I haven't seen brochures for equipment like this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the power consumption of the entire facility tripled using pneumatics.

If I am wrong in this prejudice, please correct me. Thanks.

Hello gussosa:

I have not looked into the power side of things. But would the dock not have a suction crane already for general use? Or does it nor work like that?

And, you do realise you will have to move ten tons a minute by whatever means, at least you do if my maths are correct.

Sorry for interupting............

This is the one I had in mind

sorry about the U.S. backward measures, we're kinda a backward country that holds everybody back.

for a 6" pipe approx it will take 75 hp to move the grain 400 ft at 1100 bushel/hr and hour

figuring soy bean at 60 lb/bushel U.S. 60 * 1100 = 66,000 lbs /hour (U.S.)

http://www.sukup.com/Spec%20Sheets/Cyclone_capacities.pdf

here's another one, more capacity but I it did not give the length

http://www.nebcom.net/default1.htm

Hello phoenix911:

To move the at least 600 Tons an hour as required, you will need two of these!

http://www.powderandbulk.com/pb_services/news_center/publish/article_00310.shtml

Thank you for this site. You have been very helpful . Please read my Thread at top " Bulk Density Calculations" and you will understand why.Had it not been for you and Gussosa I'd have never discovered this place . Thank you both.

Hello ducon:

You have taken my breath away with you praise.............

Thank you. I found it interesting as it had so many different grains and they are all different weights. Even then it is a bit of a guessing game as the weight is worked out assuming a certain amount of moister is in the grain. If that is higher obviously the weight will be more but, the volume of grain could be less! Which may be attributable to some of the more famous silo collapses?

You have made my Xmas, thank you.

Take care and happy holiday...............

Hello phoenix911:

can I interupt again please?.........

Do you actually know the weight and volume compared to soy?

I'll usually grab it off of NASS or something like that, this time I grabbed from Ohio Site papers.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0503.html

Hello phoenix911:

That sucker I sent to show you and the OP, sorry, not good with names!.........Only lifts the grain, when it gets to the top of the vacuum thing it falls onto a conveyer. I can't imaging that moving345 Tons an hour, and the two of them which be needed will move 670 Tons. Only just enoung if there should be any problems.

Buts a 1.25³ has to be lifted in a second, actually another 676 Kg has to be added to the total lift.

yes a cyclone to remove the energy.

yes it's under sized

Hello phoenix911:

I have realised I have been working on 'ship-to-shore' grain movement. And it will be shore-to-ship! Unless they have to tranship any or all the grain/soy by sea?

Hello phoenix911:

Heres another chart giving the weights of a ft³

1 cu/3 ft of grain = approx .8 bushels

60lbs * .8 = 48 lbs

Heres another chart giving the weights of a ft³

Down here in the River Plate we usually take 0.72 ton/cubic meter for soy, but 0.77 is fine too.

Thanks for this article. :)

2400 bushels/hour means 85 cubic meters/hour, then 61 ton/hour of soy.

(Unless my conversion factors are wrong)

In the best situation I would need at least 10 units to convey the grain, and that means 750 HP. Add the aeration systems and other stuff and it goes up above 1000 HP. In the usual configuration using mechanical conveyors I would expect something like 500 HP in total.

I am just making numbers in the air. My business partner completely redesigned the plant (that's why I haven't got a 3D model yet) and didn't even send me the dimensions of the conveyors. When I have that I will make numbers again and post them here. Maybe I will prove myself wrong.

nothing wrong with your numbers, I also figured it was 1/10th of what you required also.

with what was already available, your speculation on hp requirements are correct.

I through air conveying out there. because it you situation sounded interesting

Maybe I will prove myself wrong.

you can't be wrong by just establishing a reference point.

I'm watching this thread,

ps. I just remembered something I did about 4 years ago,

I had to design a auger for horse radish. there was a web site for spec'ing out auger size, hp, supports it was pretty complete program, and it was a pretty decent site.

I have to see if I save it to my favorites on my computer at home.

in the mean time I believe Martin Sprocket has some info on thier site for augers

Hello phoenix911:

I hope you are fine?

I know you did not send this to me but, I did mention suction handling of the grain. Whatever happens they will have to empty a Ten TONS a minute to reach the wanted 600 Tons an hour. That is going to mean some awful big suckers! And don't look at me when I say suckers!

Take care..............

I'm fine thank you for asking babybear,

I was suprised at the volume that they could actually do. but have to remember these capacities are not the worst case

600 tons/ hr is moving alot of grain.

phoenix911

Hello phoenix911:

600 tons/ hr is moving alot of grain.

If my maths is correct, it has to move 16.66 Kg per second.