Previous in Forum: Quick-Connect Fuel Line Fittings   Next in Forum: Troubles in Texas: Is My Modified Muffler Legal?
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71

The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 12:13 PM

i was wondering if it was possible to keep an engine going without any fuel at all, imagine it was cranked over, then the force of turning it over could keep it turning,and each time it went over the weight would push it round again.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: crank fuel free engine gyro
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 12:24 PM

And how would this be different from any other over-unity machine?

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#5
In reply to #1

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 1:46 PM

ah , thank s for that, i had forgotten, so it is not impossible, just not proved, it got me thinking, what if the ball started at the top and fell down, pushing round wheels, which generated electricity, which was stored, so that it could push the ball up again.

of course you would have to generate more power, than you needed to push it up again. or could all this be done with biological engines. hmmm

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2640
Good Answers: 65
#10
In reply to #5

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 5:19 PM

so it is not impossible, just not proved

No. It is impossible.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#12
In reply to #5

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 5:46 PM

or could all this be done with biological engines.

your correct, and that engine is called Armstrong.

preferable your arm.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#14
In reply to #12

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 6:00 PM

Lance Armstrong is quite a machine as well.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#15
In reply to #14

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 6:04 PM

yes he's known as a machine,......but is he perpetual?

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#36
In reply to #15

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 9:09 AM

The French seem to think so! Kinda like the Energizer Bunny on a bike.

Register to Reply
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 716
Good Answers: 25
#37
In reply to #36

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 9:21 AM

Yes, you're right, but even Energizer Bunnies stop, maybe later than other, but they stop.

Just look the previous almost unbeatable machine (Miguel Indurain). I cannot see him now winning on the Alpe d'Huez goal line. Those bastard years adding and adding....

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#40
In reply to #37

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 9:40 AM

But, Lance knew when to say enough is enough

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1607
Good Answers: 18
#74
In reply to #14

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 3:33 PM

Yes, he is. I once had occasion to be standing by the edge of the road that he was cycling on in a race. It was atop a hill where I previously lived in Pittsburgh, PA. This hill is very steep and although I had walked up it numerous times in my youth, it is an arduous task. [Most people living there use an Incline to travel up that hill]. He came blasting up this hill past me like a man possessed with his eyes "aflame" (I swear). Minutes later other cyclists struggled up the hill (panting) followed by the motorcycles and chase cars. I never saw someone so focused and intent. Perhaps his intensity is what makes him the best in the hill climbs.

__________________
"Consensus Science got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Rephrase of Will Rogers Comment
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#77
In reply to #74

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 3:35 PM

a champion, a title he earned.

not many athletes can say that.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#13
In reply to #5

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 5:53 PM

Think of rolling a ball down the slope of a trough. It accelerates down the near side and heads up the far side. It eventually stops on the far side, albeit not as high up the side as when you launched it -- and the reason why it does not rise quite as high is absolutely critical to the answer to your question. But we digress.

The ball then rolls back down the far side, comes up the near side and stops at an even lower point than the last time. The ball continues this pattern and with each pass it stops at a point slightly lower than the previous one. Eventually the ball comes to a rest at the bottom of the trough. Surely you've seen something similar at some point in your life.

Now, if you understand why the ball comes to a rest at the bottom -- really understand -- you will have discovered the fundamental reason why your wheeled experiment will also come to a rest at the bottom of the trough. Except it will do so sooner. Much sooner.

Why, do you suppose?

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#62
In reply to #13

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 2:53 PM

i understand exactly why the ball gets lower and lower, i was just wondering if it would be possible to use a perpetual mtoin machine together with a conventional machine, to save on fuel.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#67
In reply to #62

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 3:03 PM

jaypauldini:

i was just wondering if it would be possible to use a perpetual mtoin machine together with a conventional machine, to save on fuel.

like a flywheel to store energy while braking, and then to use the stored energy for acceleration.

weight and size of the gyroscopic forces are proportional, this cancels out any savings from the energy stored.

phoenix911

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#148
In reply to #1

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/13/2008 9:55 PM

it is possible!

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#149
In reply to #148

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/13/2008 11:30 PM

That does it; I'm convinced!

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#151
In reply to #149

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/14/2008 10:54 AM

rumors about you are correct.............your too easy.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#156
In reply to #148

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/14/2008 11:56 PM

Than I suppose it is possible to brick you into a space with nothing except yourself and expect to find you still functioning a year down line.

You are, after all, a very complex bio-chemical machine.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#2

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 12:38 PM

The short answer is no , there must be some energy input. Internal friction is continuously converting stored energy to heat.

There are flywheel systems that store mechanical energy for prolonged periods but , even the most efficient will eventually run down.

Friction can be reduced but not eliminated, thus there is no perpetual motion.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#31
In reply to #2

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 7:36 AM

I think that you can use an engine that uses oxygen as extracted from the air and thus offset the effect of friction and gravity. Clearly it couldn't be a perpetual Motion Engine; but would have the same effect, because the air is available for day and night anywhere and regardless of any place to refuel .

Register to Reply
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 716
Good Answers: 25
#35
In reply to #31

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 9:06 AM

And the origin of oxygen will diminish the effects of friction and gravity?

Please if you can offset the effect of gravity, let us know... I'll put a couple of such devices on my shoes... I've long ago tried to fly by flapping my ears with no successs...

And the air, even present in the outer layers of Earth planet in huge amounts, isn't perpetual. Presently we consume very large quantities of O2 just for primary living functions (breathing), to burn any fuel and even inadvertently by rusting all free bare metal surfaces. At the same time, vegetables produce new O2 but consuming some other materials. The global process has an efficiency less than unity (as expected by most of us).

Nobody heard about hummm, how they call it?.... Oh! yes, entropy! That obtuse thing...

We can (and usually engineers have done it along the human history) make any process more efficient, reduce losses or whatever you can call it. But please don't bring us those over unity stuff.

Kind regards

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#52
In reply to #35

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:23 AM

thanks for your reply. It was well needed, but I would add that a few grams of uranium and other radioactive elements can move a country or an entire city. Maybe the technology is not ready or need another scientific revolution that will help us to harness the efficiency of oxygen as fuel and return to the atmosphere as well as other elements returning after being used by Human Kind. If we use oxygen, could be a ilucion a continuous motion machine because it does not need to refill fuel somewhere, and that is what I meant to diminish the effect of friction and gravity most responsible for not now able to create such a machine in constant motion.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#53
In reply to #52

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:30 AM

To heck with those mamzy-pamzy nuclear also-rans, bust loose and drop a couple o' GRBs in there. The Big Bang could use the competition.

Register to Reply
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 716
Good Answers: 25
#55
In reply to #52

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:39 AM

Nuclear reactions give (compared with chemical ones, like combustion) a lot of energy per mass unit, the technology is ready but no general agreement on its use has been reached. Some blame it and some others say it's the "greenest one".

BTW, how can be oxygen used as fuel? What material is to be used as oxidizer?

And if no chemical reaction is foreseen for oxygen, why not use nitrogen which is much more abundant in air and less necessary to life?

Kind regards

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#59
In reply to #55

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 1:25 PM

Yes, you are rigth; but there is a oxygen in the process of photosynthesis of plants and maybe if we could better understand that process could use the oxygen enough to keep that machine of continuous movement combined with other sources of energy such as solar to increase its efficiency. The plants not use the combustion processes in it and may not be needed oxidation in the production of energia.Today we can produce the oxygen which creates a cycle that a large scale and completely balanced and controlled (in my opinion) would not affect its use in the nature, in the same way that a "controlled" hurricane would not affect drinking water in a city, because it receives and give what it use to create their power (water). We can create a machine using amplified version of plants proceses. Many human processes have been able to duplicate with even greater power (speech, hearing, the reproduction and others). If somehow artificially be able to do what plants do, could have hope in that regard (the fluid climbs up the trunk Tree against gravity). About the nitrogen I can't imagine anything except that is used as a superconductor at low temperatures. Maybe some body know that plant proces and can explain better.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#159
In reply to #59

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/15/2008 1:43 PM

maybe you can check this link http://www.primidi.com/2008/09/23.html. This explain better the idea.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#83
In reply to #2

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 5:25 PM

ok,just an idea, you know when you have two magnets the same way round and you cant push them together due to their charge, (i think), does that mean there is low friction between the two surfaces? nd if so could you make a machine/motor that had such surfaces, and so the friction could be kept very low.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#86
In reply to #83

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 5:37 PM

your talking about forces not friction, don't get the two confused

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#87
In reply to #83

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 5:55 PM

You're 100% right, however you can only reduce the friction you cannot eliminate it. I will have to get back to you as I have an appointment, but magnetic bearings are commonly used in the flywheel assembly's I referred to in my first post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_bearing

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fta_flywheel.pdf

http://www.upei.ca/~physics/p261/projects/flywheel1/flywheel1.htm

In the meantime you may find some information in these links that will be of interest .

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
2
Anonymous Poster
#3

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 1:33 PM

More importantly...to what end?

Let's temporarily suspend the laws of physics and say that you can, in fact build a mechanical device that is capable of keeping itself in motion forever. And you can do it in such a way that Earth's gravity doesn't affect it. Because you don't want to build it in space do you? Of course not. In space it's too hard to find girls to impress with your device.

But by obvious necessity your device can't have any sort of load attached or be doing any sort of work except keeping itself going since that would clearly rob the system of energy. We're not going to suspend physics THAT much. After all, any Universe worth living in needs a few rules.

Anyway, now you have a swell perpetual motion machine, spinning soundlessly. In fact, you probably can't even look at it since all those photons ricocheting off of it would surely upset it's delicate operation over enough time. So there's really no way to detect that it's working at all. There it is, a black box. Doing exactly nothing as far as anyone can tell. The ultimate high-tech bit of useless desk clutter.

See? Instead of becoming the inventor of the first perpetual motion engine, you should have kept that job engraving personalized keychains down at the mall. At least girls stop by there occasionally.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#4
In reply to #3

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 1:40 PM

it was just a thought, if it was a giant machine maybe it could power a smaller engine, or the perpetual part could be used to make electricity for another part of an engine.

if i wanted to impress girls i would buy a motorbike,

al this talk about bio fuel /ethanol, made me think. surely it would be simplerto have an engine that didnt need fuel, or at least not all the time. surely using computers it would be possible to have the perpetual engine turning, and when it needed a bit of a push the computer could turn on the crank for a while.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#84
In reply to #3

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 5:30 PM

so it is possible, in space! thats a start. i know nothing about engraving things as i a farmer, but i do know about engines and how much fuel they use. and i have lot of time to think about things, whilst out working.

people are always saying something isnt possible, but if you put your mond to it,almost anything is possible.

thanks for your help

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 5708
Good Answers: 123
#134
In reply to #3

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/12/2008 6:44 PM

"

Anyway, now you have a swell perpetual motion machine, spinning soundlessly. In fact, you probably can't even look at it since all those photons ricocheting off of it would surely upset it's delicate operation over enough time. So there's really no way to detect that it's working at all. There it is, a black box. Doing exactly nothing as far as anyone can tell. The ultimate high-tech bit of useless desk clutter."

That description sounds a lot like Washington DC.

__________________
Bob
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#6

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 2:09 PM

Spin a top and see if it spins forever. Spin a coin. Push a merry-go-round and see if it ever stops.

Now, why should an engine behave any differently?

Draw from Life Experience. You've been ignoring it thus far.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2640
Good Answers: 65
#9
In reply to #6

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 5:17 PM

I went to a seminar once, and it went on forever.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#11
In reply to #9

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 5:40 PM

And meetings. Don't forget meetings. Going around in circles with nowhere to go. A seminar/meeting-powered car. Now that's food for thought!

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#50
In reply to #11

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:09 AM

And meetings. Don't forget meetings.

no meeting only seem like they go on forever, because its usually followed up by another meeting.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#51
In reply to #50

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:19 AM

Okay, so the splices'll make it run a little rough, but hey!

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#54
In reply to #51

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 11:32 AM

the problem with splices, it interupts a good continous ....sleeep..... what next meeting, which meeting is this?.... oh, a meeting to schedule the next meetin.........snore.......

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#56
In reply to #9

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 1:17 PM

I often go to work which also lasts forever...as do the meetings contained within.

And when it comes to meetings, just remember, none of us is as dumb as all of us.

Travis

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#57
In reply to #56

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 1:20 PM

I go to work, and before i know it i'm getting locked in and the lights are getting shut off. I suppose its a good sign, i must really enjoy my work.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#58
In reply to #57

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/10/2008 1:25 PM

But,

when your leaving, did you ever trip the silent alarm, because noone else thought everone was gone. and 5 minutes later the city cops arrive and turn loose there K-9 Units (unattended) in the building, and the dogs chase you back up stairs back into engineering.

This was my expression for taking one for the company.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#91
In reply to #9

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/11/2008 3:39 AM

PMSL
Maybe, you are getting mixed up with relativity now.
I used to attend Monthly staying awake contests disguised as meeting.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#20
In reply to #6

Re: is it possible to run an engine using only its own motion?

12/09/2008 8:06 PM

Hello europium:

I'm not sure I should tell you this, tops aren't the only thing that spins that are slowing down. They're going to stop the atomic clocks for one second this New Year's. The earth is slowing down, the plus side should anyone repeal the laws of gravity we won't be thrown off into space as easily.

The downside ,what's my atomic wrist watch and your atomic cuckoo clock going to do when they stop the atomic clocks? I can't wait till new years.

There is one more plus side, the second will be lost forever, so over a short enough distance, moving fast enough, I will officially get there before I left, or at least the same moment in time as when I left. Who says warp speeds impossible. Every drag racers dream 0 ET.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#7

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 3:22 PM
__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#17
In reply to #7

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 6:50 PM

cheers that is a great link, i dont think it will work, or have a design, i just wanted to know why it wouldnt work.

but maybe a mix of fuel powered machine and perpetual motion machine could be made to save on fuel usuage, we may have no choice in a few decades.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#19
In reply to #17

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 7:35 PM

Hi, jaypauldini, I see you're from around my neck of the woods.

I'll pm you for a chat - get back to me if you like.

John.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 5708
Good Answers: 123
#136
In reply to #17

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 6:55 PM

An machine that runs with no fuel is not an engine it is called a top.

__________________
Bob
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#137
In reply to #136

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 7:28 PM

No, I believe its called a Dream.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#142
In reply to #136

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/13/2008 4:55 AM

Correction!

Even a top uses fuel; the fuel you expend in spinning it.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#143
In reply to #17

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/13/2008 9:41 AM

Maybe one should stop thinking why it won't work, but start thinking that if someone gets it to work to figure out how to stop it.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#8

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 4:42 PM

They key is to sprinkle a bit of fariy dust on it, and have santa give it a big push to start. The little lepricauns will pay off the power company with their gold to keep things on the hush hush.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#16
In reply to #8

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 6:34 PM

just because it hasnt been done yet, doesnt mean it cant be done. look at mobile phones and computers, wasnt long ago that colour television was deemed impossible.

maybe nuclear power could be used,

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#18
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 6:51 PM

If by chance we can come up with a over unity perpetual motion machine, All the worlds troubles will be over.

I would truly love to see it happen. people have been working on such a device sense the beginning of the sciences. Maybe one day someone will disprove the law's of physics and change the world.

As wonderful it is, the proprietor of such a device would in no doubt be in great danger, as it would put most of the rest of the world out of business, and make many powerful people angry.

I'm not in a position to state that it is impossible for such a device to never be built. Lord knows millions of people are trying.

However, If by chance it is built, I will be first in line to invest in such technology

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#60
In reply to #18

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 1:56 PM

As wonderful it is, the proprietor of such a device would in no doubt be in great danger, as it would put most of the rest of the world out of business, and make many powerful people angry.

Shades of Fransisco D'Anconia from Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand) and his motor that could have changed the world.

Travis
Who is John Galt?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#21
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 9:16 PM

First of all, I assume you are aware that nuclear energy uses nuclear fuel, normally low to medium enriched uranium or plutonium, so that means your concept of a fuel-free nuclear-powered engine would be stillborn.

Next, let's look at one of the hypothetical perpetual motion devices, say the steel ball that is drawn up a ramp by a magnet, then drops down a hole in the ramp. If the magnetic pull is strong enough to overcome the force of gravity so that the ball is pulled up the ramp, it will be impossible for the ball to drop into the hole at the top of the ramp by gravity. Reason? Because the magnetic pull is greater than the gravitational pull. Conversely, if the force of gravity is strong enough to overcome the magnetic force and cause the ball to drop, then the ball cannot even be pulled up by the magnet, because it's not powerful enough to overcome gravity. If the competing pulls of gravity and magnetism are exactly equal and opposite, then the ball will remain suspended in space at an equilibrium point. Moving the ball closer to the magnet will cause the magnet to overcome gravity and hold the ball up. Moving it closer to the ground will cause it to drop.

The only way this can work would be to use a powerful electromagnet to pull the ball up. When the ball reaches the top, the electromagnet is switched off, causing the ball to drop. However, this will not qualify as a perpetual motion device, since an external energy input is required, and that is the electricity needed to power the electromagnet. A true perpetual motion device should not have an external energy source, so the only way true perpetual motion can be achieved for this device would be for the force of gravity to drop below the magnetic force when the ball is at the bottom of the ramp so that the ball can be pulled up, and to increase above the magnetic force when the ball is at the top of the ramp so the ball can drop. So that means you'll need to invent a device that can alter the force of gravity. And even then, that will require external energy input, in the form of the energy field that alters gravity.

Still, don't stop dreaming. After all, you might, just might, end up inventing the anti-gravity repulsor lift device. And while you're at it, perhaps you can also invent a Star Trek-style transporter, or better yet, a Stargate of the type used by SG-1. Perhaps you might contact Vulcan to teach you how to build a transporter. This would be a far better option than a perpetual motion car. After all, why would we need cars if we can simply beam over to anywhere we want?

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
#185
In reply to #21

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

03/16/2009 4:42 PM

Great explanation..I love it.

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1
#186
In reply to #21

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

07/20/2009 9:12 PM

I like your explanation of a perpetual motion device. I have invented an engine that I believe will run indefinately....or, at least until the bearings wear out (But I do not consider this engine to be perpetual). I would like you to look at the electro-mechanical configuration of my engine and answer a couple questions for me...if you would be so kind. The non-fuel electromagnetic engine that I have invented is located at http://www.electromagnetengine.com . My question is... if a device considered to be a perpetual motion device, ever stops, does it then become not a perpetual motion device? Contunious motion vs perpetual motion. How would you describe the difference between continous motion and perpetual motion? If I find your answer to my understanding and liking, may I quote you on my website? Thanks. Harold Carter

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#187
In reply to #186

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

07/21/2009 11:46 AM

So..... when you hook up a load to your "Engine" what happens?

I fail to understand how it could possibly power any kind of vehicle.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#188
In reply to #187

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

07/21/2009 11:49 AM

It's a bottomless pit of BS - DON'T GET DRAWN IN!

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#189
In reply to #188

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

07/21/2009 1:34 PM

Hehe... I just want to see the response... Its gotta be good.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 1084
Good Answers: 54
#23
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 11:27 PM

"Just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done". True.

But, just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it CAN be done either.

Practical engineers & physicists have, over the centuries, developed good reasons for believing it's not going to happen. Basically

1. You never get out more energy than you put in.

2. You always lose a little bit of energy as the machine runs.

Although all science is tentative, it's still the best way to bet.

__________________
If there's something you don't understand...Then a wizard did it. As heard on "The Simpsons".
Register to Reply
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 716
Good Answers: 25
#25
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 2:28 AM

Hello jaypauldini,

just because it hasnt been done yet, doesnt mean it cant be done. Absolutely true, but this doesn't support your OP. Many things hasn't been done just because are impossible: Make the addition (base 10) 2+2 and get 17 as result, refuse the last Fermat theorem, find the last exact digit of "Π" or "e" (base 10 too... I like it), perpetual motion machines...

maybe nuclear power could be used. You can use nuclear power either fission or fusion modes, but any of them will stop unless fed with more U235, He3 or whatever isotope you want.

Well, nuclear power could be used (I wish it never) for "perpetual stop". Just spread evenly all nuclear weapons available over the complete world and detonate them.

Kind regards

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 45
Good Answers: 1
#28
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 4:03 AM

The terminology here is very important.. if you don't use the words 'engine' or 'machine' and use the word 'energy converter' it is much easier to understand. An engine merely converts stored energy from a fuel source into mechanical energy.

So it is taking energy from somewhere, changing that energy into another type of energy and outputting that energy. In the process it is using some of the original energy to overcome friction, mechanical losses and heat [energy] losses.

Remember that 100% of the original energy is still there whether it is in the form of heat energy, mechanical energy, noise or unburnt fuel. Energy cannot be made or destroyed, just converted into other forms of energy or mass, but then we're getting into quantum mechanics which is a little harder to explain

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#66
In reply to #28

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 3:02 PM

yes, thanks, this is one of things i hve to think about. i was thinking like a waterwheel which is a energy generator and powers the mill or whatever it is fixed to, but if you hav eno water flow you have no power. i am getting close to stumped, but still a bit of energy

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 285
Good Answers: 9
#30
In reply to #16

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 5:53 AM

jaypauldini

At the moment this cannot be achieved given what we currently know and how we currently think, that does not mean that is impossible (yes impossible at the moment but we do not know what the future holds)

It will only be possible if people keep thinking about it and asking questions, developing new ideas (your idea by the way is not new, but the fact that you are thinking of these types of things is a step in the right direction).

Imagine where the world would be if we all listened to those that said that something was impossible. If we just take things as fact then we will not progress - we should challenge facts with new ideas etc.

You will get the cranks here who cannot think outside the box or develop their own ideas that will attempt to make fun of these types of ideas (OK some of the over unity ideas deserve it) but that should not stop you or others.

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 45
Good Answers: 1
#32
In reply to #30

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 8:58 AM

A perpetual energy source and a perpetual motion machine are not the same thing.

A perpetual machine needs only a given amount of energy then once it is working the energy source is removed and the machine keeps working.

A perpetual source of energy can come from oxygen in the air or nuclear energy or whatever, but it is not the same as a perpetual motion machine.

The amount of energy in and around our planet is enormous and more than we could ever use. Unfortunately we are just clever monkeys so is taking us a relatively long time to find ways of accessing and harnessing the minuscule percentage of this energy that we need.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 365
#22

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/09/2008 11:18 PM

Hello jaypauldini, where did you get my picture.

We are currently working on such concept, ignoring the fact the earth is flat, man cant fly, travel in space, walk on the moon or drive across mars.

Whats held back earlier technology is that friction creates heat and that heat is lost. We are using all heat prevoiosly lost to go into heating Co2 drive force.

Basics of our work appear in New Technologies- generators.

Cheers

Peter

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 41
Good Answers: 3
#24

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 12:50 AM

What were you doing in high school physics class, impressing girls?

__________________
Finish your beer! There are sober kids in Africa!
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#80
In reply to #24

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 5:06 PM

yes, i spent my entire high school impressing girls.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#81
In reply to #80

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 5:13 PM

This is not a Bad Thing, you know. The sixty-four £ question really is: Did you succeed? It is what high school is for, after all! All that other nonsense can come later.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#98
In reply to #81

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 12:40 PM

i had a great time at high school, i would recommend partying your way through high school, and college and university, just make sure you pass enough classes to get through.

i got i out of my system, now i can get on with learning how things work.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK, where ever the wind blows
Posts: 69
Good Answers: 3
#26

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 3:11 AM

I guess we all agree it is not possible and never will be possible to create energy from nothing but maybe the point you are making is that we might use some of the technology thought of for perpetual motion engines in creating an engine that uses the minimum amount of energy and hence has an optimum efficiency. Of course this is something engineers have been considering ever since fuel prices went up ;-) The biggest problem however will be perhaps that the energy output (specific power produced) is going to be very small.

__________________
'There is no such thing as a silly question, only silly answers' - Unknown
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#99
In reply to #26

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 12:45 PM

yes, but what if the perpetual engine was very big, and the energy needed very small. a bit like a steam traction engine, which were huge and inefficient in compriosn to the internal combustion engine. but if there was none or little fuel used to keep it moving, then you could generate power for small needs, if that makes sense.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#100
In reply to #99

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 12:48 PM

I always though a steam engine was efficent.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#101
In reply to #100

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 1:00 PM

when the internal combustion engine came along, they were scrapped over night almost. i know blokes who work on farms which used them for ploughing machines, and they say the diesel tractor is far more efficient and easy to move around.

dont get me wrong i love steam traction engines, but all the hassle of having to start the boiler two hours before you need to use the engine, compared to starting up and driving off in a diesel tractor.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#102
In reply to #101

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 1:19 PM

Yes I agree with you.

I go to the local thresheree's, and enjoy it.

But one thing that one of my industrial arts teacher told me in high school, (30 + years ago) and it stuck with me. He asked the class what is the most powerful engine today.

The answer, The steam engine, it will go until she blows.

Its nothing like turning a key and go without having to heat up the boiler.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#113
In reply to #101

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 4:08 PM

"but all the hassle of having to start the boiler two hours before you need to use the engine"

That is a different question than the one of efficiency.

As a matter of fact with modern flash boilers, like the Geezer you use for hot water, good arguments have been made that we ought to go back to steam powered cars.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#123
In reply to #101

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 7:20 PM

" ... more efficient and easy to move around ... "

Careful you don't confuse "efficiency" (in terms of energy in compared with energy out) and "ease (or convenience)" (turn the key & go).

John.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#112
In reply to #100

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 4:03 PM

Me too.

Size for size, weight for weight, far more efficient.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#103
In reply to #99

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 1:19 PM

Hi JPD,

Increasing the size scales everything else accordingly. Say you had a 10-HP (gross power generated) steam engine. Assume further that 1 HP is needed to overcome friction. Your net output power, then, is 10 - 1 = 9 HP, or 90% of gross power generated.

You now build a steam engine ten times larger: 100 HP gross power generated. However, your bearing surfaces have also increased by the same amount and now require 10 HP to overcome the friction, leaving you with 90 HP net, or 90% of gross power generated.

10% loss still equals 10% loss no matter how large the scale. Do you see what's happening here?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain
Posts: 71
#109
In reply to #103

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 3:54 PM

i am trying to understand it, but could you not usthe 90% energy left, or am i thinking wrong, would i kep losing power until it stopped. if this is so, i would have to give the perp machine a push once in a while.

what about if it was geared, slowly going up in gear siaze like on a bicycle, where you dont need much energy to push the higher gear once you have the momentum.

i know i am shoooting in the dark, but it still interests me, gives me somthing to think about.

__________________
nothing is impossible
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#117
In reply to #109

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 4:39 PM

If you need something to think about think carefully about your axiom "Nothing is impossible' and why that is impossible.

j.

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#119
In reply to #109

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 4:55 PM

Yes, but how much energy would you have to put in it to get it going? More than 90%, guaranteed.

In the following scenario you are doing the work. You have no fuel for your steam engine, and no water. Nor will you use some auxiliary motor to turn the flywheel. You are doing the work yourself. So you spin up your steam engine's flywheel by turning it with your hand and get it and the other moving parts of your steam engine going round.

The motion of the flywheel represents stored energy -- energy you and you alone put there, by turning the flywheel with your hand. Now, once spinning that flywheel is going to lose energy through friction. It is trading its motion for heat generated by imperfect bearings and other, less significant (but present) losses, like air friction. The flywheel will gradually slow down and stop completely because of the same friction that robs you of 10% of the energy the steam engine loses while running as a proper steam engine.

Think of the energy stored in the moving flywheel as water in a tank. Initially the flywheel is not moving -- the water tank is empty. In order to get your flywheel turning you must do work. If it's a large flywheel, you're gonna have to work very hard to get it going. Believe me, next morning your muscles will feel it. They did a lot of work making that flywheel go.

And to fill that water tank you're gonna have to do work, just like you had to work turning the flywheel. You can use a hand pump or carry the water in a pail up the ladder and pour it in the top. It doesn't matter how you do it; you're gonna have to work to fill it. Ditto for those muscles next morning. Especially your legs.

Where does friction come into play? Your water tank has a leak. All that work you put into filling the tank will eventually be wasted if you don't use the water before it's all gone. The really nasty thing about friction is that you can't quite get rid of it completely. Likewise you can try to patch the leak, but you'll never get rid of it completely. You can slow it down, but never stop it. Your tank will empty out -- your flywheel will stop.

Now, draw power from the spinning flywheel. Run a belt between it and your table saw and cut a board in two. What happens? The flywheel slows down -- hopefully not before you've finished sawing. Where did that saw get its power? From the flywheel. Where did the flywheel get it? From you. What you put in you're gonna get back -- if you use it to do useful work -- but you're gonna get back only 90% of it. The rest of it is going into heating the bearings and through other losses mentioned earlier.

Or, instead of doing useful work, increase the friction the flywheel sees by pressing your hand hard against its rim! The flywheel slows down faster. What happens to your hand? It heats up. Friction generates heat. Hold your hand there long enough and it's gonna start hurting. And where'd the flywheel get that energy that is now making you miserable? From you, earlier, when you got it spinning yourself.

Back to the tank: You hook a hose to the bottom of the tank and attach the other end to a water turbine that drives your table saw. Hopefully the tank won't empty before you finish sawing your board.

Now, in the context of the water tank, what you originally proposed is akin to taking another hose, hooking it to the turbine outlet and hoisting the other end up to the top of the tank to put the water back in. What happens when the end of the hose reaches the water level in the tank? The water stops flowing, of course, and your turbine stops. You can no longer do useful work, like sawing a board in two. Raise the hose all the way to the top of the tank and guess what? No water flows out. In fact it actually recedes from the end of the hose. Either way your turbine stops. But, your tank is still leaking. The energy you put into filling your tank is slowing dissipating. Eventually there won't be any left.

But before it empties, how about not doing useful work and instead make the leak in the tank larger. The tank will drain faster, of course, just as the flywheel eventually comes to a stop sooner when you press your hand hard against it.

Your tank is leaking and there's not a dang thing you can do about it except maybe make the leak as small as you can. But it'll still leak, however slowly. Ultimately the tank will empty whether you do anything about it or not. Ultimately your flywheel will stop turning whether you do anything about it or not.

If you want to keep your flywheel turning, you're gonna have to do more work. Preferably with the other hand.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 99
#120
In reply to #119

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 5:51 PM

Very excellent response, and a GA from me.

but you're gonna get back only 90% of it. The rest of it is going into heating the bearings and through other losses mentioned earlier.

-90% if your lucky.

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#121
In reply to #120

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 6:20 PM

Thanks!

As far as that 90% goes, it came from my earlier hypothetical example here.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#122
In reply to #119

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 6:36 PM

Yes, great analogy, ga

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#124
In reply to #122

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 4:08 AM

Yeah...great being the operative word...far too long

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#126
In reply to #124

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 8:57 AM

You can't please 'em all. Here, have another thousand words:

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22777
Good Answers: 411
#127
In reply to #126

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 9:06 AM

I like your signature,

reminds me of whats happening of todays accountants....

"figures don't lie, but lairs can figure"

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#129
In reply to #126

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 11:23 AM

Nice pic i like the fine detail...the two guys sitting having coffee

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#130
In reply to #129

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 11:41 AM

That's Sadi Carnot and James Joule discussing ways to patch that leak. Maxwell, Boltzmann and Gibbs drove into town to get lunch.

But the Sixty-Four £ Question really is, "What the heck are these guys doing in Pagosa Junction at this time of year?" The prostitutes are all on holiday!

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#131
In reply to #130

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 11:53 AM

Maybe they are doing a Bee Gees tribute act?
Confuse a Cat.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#132
In reply to #124

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 12:09 PM

"Yeah...great being the operative word...far too long"

You gotta give me at least some credit. For someone with raging A.D.D., writing a post like that in one sitting is quite a feat, all things considered.

So, then, perhaps I should stick with one liners? Okay, four-liners. This should neatly clarify things for our OP:

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#135
In reply to #132

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/12/2008 6:50 PM

"Do what thou wilt ..."

But yagotta tellusall bout wot them letters stand four - case we caint lookemup 4 arse elves.

Taint a pome!!

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#138
In reply to #135

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/13/2008 2:08 AM

0th, 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws of thermodynamics, in a nutshell.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#139
In reply to #138

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/13/2008 4:29 AM

Well yes -

- this is a bit of a giveaway - but without a key for the ABC, they don't make a lot of sense.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#144
In reply to #139

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/13/2008 1:15 PM

My post was deliberately terse. You've got mail.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#111
In reply to #99

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/11/2008 4:02 PM

What makes sense is that hiding behind large structures you keep looking for free energy that does not exist.

j.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#27

Re: The Perpetual Motion Engine

12/10/2008 3:15 AM

Look up the Adams Pulse Generator. Looks like it should work but then you get nothing for nothing.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

agua_doc (1); Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (11); bgd73 (1); bhankiii (3); bob c (2); Bricktop (4); cashman68bam (7); Comrade Col. Clamrod (1); DaS Energy (1); Del the cat (7); Dutchy (1); DVader1000 (1); ffej (1); findperpetual (1); Goodho (1); HoleInTheSnow (11); J_London_uk (3); Jack Jersawitz (17); Janissaries (2); jaypauldini (17); JohnDG (5); Kwetz (4); Lemmy70 (6); mrhcarter (1); phoenix911 (26); rblanton (1); rockbit (1); ronseto (1); RVZ717 (11); user-deleted-13 (36); YWROADRUNNER (3)

Previous in Forum: Quick-Connect Fuel Line Fittings   Next in Forum: Troubles in Texas: Is My Modified Muffler Legal?

Advertisement