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allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/09/2009 6:03 PM

hi to all

we are bulding piping to cryogenics plantas but at the moment to joint the last straight line whit the last flanged joint we have a offset near to 3 degrees. at flanged joint we have good alignament and paralelism for this reason we can do a good torque procedure but the doubt is the welded joint before the flange.

Do you have any recomendation to cases like this.

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#1

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/10/2009 1:19 AM

It really depends on the design and size of your piping system and how much flexibility is already present in it - of even more concern is what your piping is connected to - pump, machinery, tank, vessel - because you do not want to induce excessive stress on these.

The following is taken from para. 335.1 (c) of ASME B31.3

(c) Flanged Joints. Before bolting up, flange
faces shall be aligned to the design plane
within 1 mm in 200 mm (1⁄16 in./ft) measured
across any diameter; flange bolt holes shall
be aligned within 3 mm (1⁄8 in.) maximum
offset.

As stated, the alignment tolerance applies to each individual flange, measured to the design plane. Some practitioners consider this to be excessive and use half of this tolerance, thereby making the alignment tolerance 1⁄2 mm in 200 mm (1⁄32 in./ft). Conversely, it is recognized that misalignment greater than that permitted by para. 335.1 (c) can generally be accepted for small diameter piping, particularly if it is not connected to load-sensitive equipment. It is understood that more stringent alignment
tolerances may be required for large piping connected to load-sensitive equipment such as machinery. For machinery, refer to API 686, Chapter 6, Sections 4.6 through 4.9 and Fig. B-4; and you may even want to refer to WRC 449 or WRC 513.

There is even interpretation 15-07 (with some relevance to your situation):

Question: In accordance with ASME B31.3c-1995 Addenda, para. 335.1.1(c), prior to bolting up a flanged joint, may the flange faces be out of alignment from the design plane by more than 1/16 in./ft (0.5%), provided the misalignment is considered in the design of the flanged assembly and attached piping in accordance with para. 300(c) (3)?

Reply: Yes.

With your torquing procedure you may want to look at something like this (of course it depends on the size of your flange and number of bolts):

  1. install 4 studs, snug to align the flanges
  2. install the remaining 4 studs torqued to 1/2 final value (leaving the initial 4 out of the sequence)
  3. remove the original 4 studs and replace with new and torque to 1/2 final value
  4. proceed with your torque sequencing on all studs.

An appropriate test of whether the alignment is acceptable is to check any machinery alignment (if present) with and without the piping bolted to it.

The last point (that I probably shouldn't even mention but I will for arguments sake) and this will probably ruffle a few feathers , but there is even a slight chance that by torquing this misalignment into place it will lower the stress values on the piping when at temperature - similar to cold springing. However, cold springing needs to be explicitly designed and is quite the art. (but forget I even mentioned this )

If you are stuck with the misalignment and can't replace the flange, nor do an analysis on your piping system - you are on your own ........... it may be a problem, and it may not .....................

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/10/2009 1:43 AM

oh yeah, another thought - IF you can remove and replace the flange and it is a buttwelded flange:

ASME B31.3 - 328.4.2:

6) Buttweld fittings manufactured in accordance
with ASME B16.9 may be trimmed to produce an angular
joint offset in their connections to pipe or to other buttweld
fittings without being subject to design qualifications
in accordance with para. 304.7.2 provided the total

angular offset produced between the two jointed parts does not exceed three degrees.

And just curious - what size/style of flange are you dealing with?

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#3

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/11/2009 5:06 AM

Hello GABRIELALEJANDRO:

If you can do as Guest says and remove the Flange you are taking the pipe to, you can offset the flange side and the incoming pipe on each side by 1.5 degrees. Means less stress?

Take care.........

Happy new year.............

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#4

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 3:59 AM

" ... near to 3 degrees." sounds like the 2.5deg used for drainage lines. If so, they are usually zero pressure and you can virtually do anything that looks good. Butt welding the pipe with each end cut back by ~1.5degs would do the job.

Otherwise we'd use two 90deg elbows to create an 'S' or 'Z' and use the butt between the two elbows to correct the ~3deg. This can only be done if the pipe is on a rack and not against a wall or similar.

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#5

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 11:57 AM

YA I AM AGREE WHIT YOU I WANT TO SEND A DREW TO TRY EXPLAIN IN A BETTER WAY THE SITUATION

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOU HELP

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 12:16 PM

Do you have the option of cutting off the flanges and rewelding new ones with the angled offset? (including the necessary NDE / Hydrotesting)

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#7

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 12:44 PM

ok but in this moment we want starrt the plant as soon as possible. I think that this offset of 2.74 ° may be allowance. of course after verify whit no destructive tests

we have radiographic examination and hidrotest and penetrants

waht do you think

atte

GABRIEL

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 2:15 PM

Without more details - that looks like a pretty "stiff" connection. A 16" dia pipe (40S) with a length of 24" is not very forgiving at all. It also depends on the type of branch connections you have to the two other vertical pipes. I did a quick check on Caesar and it looks like there is a problem - however, I can not be certain without knowing more of your piping system and how flexible it is (how much torque can be applied to the vertical pipes).

With the limited information you have given us - I recommend that you build a new spool piece (reweld the flanges on the existing) with the necessary angles. It appears that if you try to torque this pipe in - there will be a problem with overstress (or not getting flanges to seal)

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 2:46 PM

i have a very good paralelism between flanges ( the disparaleleism between flanges is only 0.006" at all flange) and the and the disalignament is only 0.002" the space between flange is 0.0.130"

to bolt of 1.2" diameter the torque values to B8 M CLASS 2 is 950 ft-lbs whit gasket spiralwound filled whit graphite

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 4:26 PM

I am sorry - I do not understand your numbers,

Can you provide a more accurate sketch showing these dimensions? Also, how accurate is your previous sketch? I interpreted it as such - the offset angle on the 16" spool piece is not, in reality, what you drew. I envisioned it straight such as:

Can you confirm?

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#13
In reply to #7

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

09/04/2024 3:20 AM

<...as soon as possible...>

Everything happens at this rate, so the expression is meaningless.

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#11

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 9:16 PM

OK GUEST

THANKS IN ADVANCE

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: allowable offset to piping at chemicals plants

01/12/2009 9:33 PM

Yes, perfect.

If you have not made the mitre cuts and rewelded this piece as such, you should do so.

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