Previous in Forum: Cable   Next in Forum: AC out Solid State Relay for DC
Close
Close
Close
15 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Anonymous Poster

Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/18/2009 8:45 AM

i have read just about all the material that I have found online but I just can't quite put my finger on the concept that the larger surface area of an acoustic projector the narrower the transmitted beam. Can someone please explain what is happening here?

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#1

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/18/2009 9:15 AM

Dunno, not my field but maybe it's edge effect, or..
Imagine a point source will radiate in all directions whereas a plate will radiate fore and aft...If you interpolate betewwn the two...errr...I need a cat nap

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply
3
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: since 20 Jan 09, the USSA
Posts: 375
Good Answers: 81
#2

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/18/2009 3:42 PM

This is not limited to acoustics. It is any wave phenomenon. But it isn't completely true the way you state it. What is true is that the larger the aperture relative to a wavelength, the more directional the transmitted beam.

An acoustic example. A traditional hi-fi loudspeaker has woofer, mid-range and tweeter, and each is smaller than the last. Ideally each broadcasts the same pattern, but because the wavelength gets smaller, the aperture does as well.

Same for antennas. The bigger the dish, for a given wavelength, the higher the gain, or directivity. Think about satellite dishes back in the 1980s vs. today. The difference is the higher frequency (smaller wavelength) used in today's satellite transmissions.

Now here's the why. It will help if you took high school physics and remember ripple tanks, or if you learned Huygen's Wavefront Principle. I'm going to assume neither and state Huygen's Wavefront Principle and the simple drawing you can do to understand the relationship of aperture, wavelength, and directivity.

Huygens said that the wavefront of a traveling wave acts as the source of the next wavefront, with each point along the wavefront the center of a circle (or sphere) with a radius equal to the wavelength. I don't know how to draw in Cr4, so here is a web site with a perfect drawing:

http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath242/kmath242.htm

So imagine you take a piece of paper and compass, and draw a small circle at the middle of the page using a compass. Now place the point of the compass on any point of the circle you just drew, and draw another circle. then move the compass point a small distance along the circumference of the first circle, and draw another circle. Repeat until you have another circle of radius twice that of the original. This is how a wavefront propagates through space. It is no different than dropping a rock in a pond. If you continue to repeat this algorithm, you generate a bigger and bigger circle. Imagine your circle now occupies about half the height of the page, so that one quarter of the page is left above and below your circle.

Draw two horizontal lines across the page one quarter of the way down from the top, and one quarter of the way up from the bottom. These two lines are tangential to the top and bottom of the circle. Now erase a section of each line at the center where it touches the circle. At the top of the page, erase a section of the line that is long compared to the radius of the successive small circles you have been drawing. At the bottom, erase a smaller section that is short relative to the small circle radius.

Now draw the next wavefront that will penetrate the slots. At the top, with the large slot, what you will see is that at the very corners of the slot, the wavefront diverges around the edge and starts to spread a little, but in the middle, the wavefront is pretty much unaffected by the slot being there at all, and the wave pretty much goes along the way it was before.

At the bottom, the small slot will cause divergence of the entire transmitted wavefront. It looks as if the small slot is the source of a brand new circular wavefront.

And that's pretty much it. I recall reading a book on submarine sonar, and they explained in there that a sonar dish roughly the same size as a radar dish on an airplane had the same directivity as the radar dish. (Directivity meaning the degree to which the wavefront is a beam vs. spreading out.) The frequencies were slightly different, however: the aircraft radar was X-band (8-12 GHz), while the sonar signal was at 50 kHz. But it works out that the wavelengths were equal. The wavelength of any wave is the wave speed divided by frequency. For radar, the speed is the speed of light, 300,000 km/second, while for sound it is 1500 meters per second (in water). So the wavelengths are indeed the same: 3 cm.

So across a frequency ratio of 50,000 times, the directivity of the two dishes is precisely the same. That is a pretty powerful demonstration of the fundamental nature of wave mechanics and our understanding of it.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/18/2009 11:02 PM

"I don't know how to draw in Cr4"

You don't draw in CR4 - you draw in some other program, save the results as a JPG file, then click on the camera icon in the toolbar to link to the JPG file. Sparkstation has given very detailed directions in the not-too distant past.

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: India-Chennai.
Posts: 722
Good Answers: 30
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 1:20 AM

Fine with that. How to insert 'animated clips' like gif animation into message. I find icon for 'insert/edit image' which doesn't take animated gif, but have seen some could do it, how?

__________________
A picture worth thousand words: needless to say if it is animated.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 1:30 AM

Again, Sparkstation has given very detailed directions in the not-too distant past (I'm pretty sure it was less than a year ago). Check his posts. That's something I haven't done myself...

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Reply
Active Contributor
Hobbies - CNC - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19
#7
In reply to #3

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 3:51 AM

Sparky's comment can be seen at:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread15743

Cheers Gary

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 185
Good Answers: 12
#12
In reply to #7

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 12:16 PM

I couldn't get there with your link. Is there a problem or just me?

Reply
Active Contributor
Hobbies - CNC - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 4:44 PM

The link does work, I verified it myself when I posted the comment!

But !!! you must sign out of the CR4 forum and paste the link in your browser window search!!!

Hope that works for you !! :-) Gary

Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 10:47 PM

Didn't work for me either way...

Dick

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Reply
Active Contributor
Hobbies - CNC - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/20/2009 12:35 AM

another method to try:

1-go to the "search all of CR4" box

2- type in "how to insert graphics into your post"

3-of the 51 comments that will be displayed, scroll down to the comment dated 12/29/2007, by Sparkstation, you will also see a 3 star rating for the post.

Cheers Gary

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#8
In reply to #2

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 4:01 AM

Hi emc c,

if the slit is not made of two thin sharp pieces (razorblades are useful) but of 2 reflecting cylinders or one cylinder and one inclined wedge - are there the same arguments valid?

As the surfaces of the cylinder and the wedge are reflecting there should be some energy directed to the slit.

But as with any reflection the angle of incidence will grow in a converging gap I have no simple means to calculate the transmitted part of the rays.

Ray tracing would be a possibility, I never tried.

RHABE

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Popular Science - Paleontology - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Holeincanoe Ontario
Posts: 2169
Good Answers: 27
#10
In reply to #2

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 8:56 AM

Would it be possible to, say, focus two (or more) sine waves to a specific distance and at the spot where they interact are able to produce sound?

__________________
Prophet Freddy has the answer!
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member China - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CHINA
Posts: 2945
Good Answers: 14
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 9:29 AM

May not.

first, sound is produced by a kind of machine viberation, the audible sound is of which frequency is between about 16 - 20khz or 20 - 20khz. under it we call as infrasonic, whereas higher 20khz is ultrasonic.

if the sine wave is electric wave, no matter how they drop in the arrangement, we cannt hear it.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mumbai-57
Posts: 107
Good Answers: 1
#6

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 3:50 AM

Hi,

Let me see if I can make it simple.

You see, any acoustic beam diverges after travelling straight over a certain distance called Near Zone which has the shape of the projector; the zone in which it diverges is called Far Zone. Now, the angle of divergence, say x, is given by the formula

sin x = k * wavelength / diagonal or diameter of projector.

Hence, larger the size of the projector smaller the divergence and narrower (more concentrated) the beam.

FYI:The constant k depends on what attenuation level you are opting for at the periphery of the beam.

Hope it helps.

Nachi

Reply
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 716
Good Answers: 25
#9

Re: Question Regarding Hydroacoustics

01/19/2009 8:29 AM

The sound beam emitted by an oscillator has two main different zones called "near field" and "far field". Near field is characterized by interferences with successive sound pressure maximums and minimums along the beam axis. The far field is characterized by a spread of sound pressure, which half angle of divergence (conventional) measured from the axis is given by the approximate formula: sin ø = 1.2V/DF where V is the sound speed in the corresponding media (in your case water or any other liquid). D is the equivalent oscillator diameter and F the frequency of sound wave.

Thus, as the size increases (D) the spread angle is lower and the beam narrower.

Have a look at this ultrasonic course (free):

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/cc_ut_index.htm

Best regards

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 15 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

cnpower (1); dkwarner (3); Duckinthepond (1); emc_c (1); Kwetz (1); messager (3); Nachi (1); Rebuilt (1); RHABE (1); user-deleted-1105 (1); yesyen (1)

Previous in Forum: Cable   Next in Forum: AC out Solid State Relay for DC

Advertisement