Nikola Tesla and the Whitefire Experiments

Thanks for the post, bcmarshall. Please note that I've replace the text you pasted with a link to the Web site. My concern here is that we not violate anyone's copyright to the material.

Hi Bruce,

I'm a Tesla fan. I've read 3 books about him, and own the book of electrical patents, as well as read much on the internet. I must have missed that particular story about Whitefire.. very interesting, and I will look through my materials to find out what else there is about it, and let you know. Thank you,

Chris

The only links I could find on Tesla's "White fire" phenomena were from pseudoscience sites (and the explanations of the phenomena were just awful so I won't provide links least you all get dumber just reading that garbage).

From my experience of high voltage and arcing in the power and lightning protection industry, it sounds like he created a superheated gas plasma arc. I am not surprised he couldn't measure the current properly (especially if he was using a pulse discharge or waveform which are notoriously difficult to measure and still give hope to many a backyard free energy inventor even today), but given Tesla's equipment and experiments of the time I am not surprised he was able to create it. Also note from the article on Tesla that you posted that Tesla couldn't measure the current of a standard Tesla coil when it was arcing (and hence this was also a zero-energy reaction).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)

As for a zero (or over unity) energy source or reaction, I don't think so. As for the Tesla trans­former conducting "Aether" instead of electrons, ahh, no. The physics behind the phenomena are well known (even ball lightning) and are even being used today to develop gas ionisation plasma weapons and (primitive) vehicle shields.

I'm starting this discussion in the hopes that someone will have some specific information on Whitefire. I have an application in mind for it and I have both the means and the intent of carrying out my own experiments on it trying to reproduce it to see if it can be harnessed as an illumination source.

As others will say, please be aware that this can be very, very dangerous. Arc and plasma discharges are not toys or playthings for the inexperienced and unprepared and can cause serious burns, fire, electrocution, blindness and even radiation tissue damage. Don't forget to have a look on the internet at the Tesla coil sites and clubs for more information on how to safely build and operate Tesla coils and carry out these experiments.

Play safe, and protect those eyes.

Thanks for the warning.

Note that I didn't claim over unity, or even unity. Certainly nothing would have worked had it been unplugged. The claims as written indicate a million or more volts with no measurable current in the light production phase (using the devices of the day, of course), and I simply repeated that, but clearly there was current flowing from the grid somewhere.

I have a very specific application which requires a highly efficient, intense light, and if I can not find any documentation to answer my questions I intend to either research it myself or pay to have it researched by others, at least long enough to produce the light and measure its wavelength and efficiency. If the light is suitable for my application and the efficiency is higher than the conventional light sources available I may go forward with full development. At this point I only know that such light exists and that I know no specific details about it. I would be foolish not to investigate it given my need for a similar source.

The physics behind the phenomena are well known (even ball lightning) and are even being used today to develop gas ionisation plasma weapons and (primitive) vehicle shields.

Hi, if you can explain the physics of ball lightning I am extremely interested, where to find?

Plasma weapons: I know only the micro-plasma-torch used in stainless steel welding, this is very hot but the length of the flame is near 50 mm maximum (2 inch)

RHABE

There are a number of different types, but most modern plasma based weapons use a brief intense laser pulse or a thin metal filament to create an ionized gas plasma path allowing current to flow from the weapon to the target.

I only have some old links (I don't know where my more up to date ones are).

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-06/ns-swt061604.php

http://www.lod.org/Projects/Other//index.htm

Try a google search for more.

The physics behind the phenomena are well known (even ball lightning)

Ball lightning (like bumble bee flight) has only been properly defined and understood recently.

Try a google search for more.

I am sending you by email, the email-address of a physicist who has been working on a Tesla concept and had developed a rational and scientific explanation for a Tesla observation, that Tesla thought was an over-unity design. The observations about the resistance to current flow seems to be in line with the reference explanation.

Thank you. I appreciate the help.

Of course, "no measurable current" doesn't mean that no current was flowing. Even today it wouldn't be trivial to accurately measure milliamp currents near Megavolt, Megahertz transformers.

What sounds more likely, a showman scientist (from the early days of electricity) didn't quite get the measurements right OR a slightly crazy scientist discovered a wonderful source of light (that defies all known physics) that has been totally missed ever since..

I have recently found that Tesla did in fact patent an illumination source, but I don't think it's the same thing. I have posted the patent documents at http://www.marshallsystem.com/Tesla.pdf

It may not have been thought of in terms of illumination when it occurred, and hundreds of his inventions have been totally missed ever since, so if it were it wouldn't be the only one.

Hi,

I assume that Tesla did vaporise some of the copper of his coils.

Copper vapor is green-blue-white.

Copper was added to the carbon rods of early arc-lamps to yield a better, whiter light.

RHABE

"His plan to illuminate the night sky with a radiant energy beacon captured the minds of all who listened."

As it captures mine. The article doesn't actually say how this could be done, but, really, ther process does sound very dangerous.

I follow this thread with interest.

The description sounds a lot like plasma physics at atmospheric pressure. It is similar to plasma creation in fluorescent lamps only with different parameters.

Having worked in R&D on plasma physics projects, I would not want to be anywhere near a million volt discharge in air. As to the inability to measure current, that was surely a problem of instrumentation. Everything has its range of operation and limits, so I'm not surprised that erroneous conclusions were drawn.

As we all know, you don't get something for nothing. Making certain bulbs (or tubes) glow at some distance means that electrons were clearly radiating from this plasma and ionizing a gas in the bulb (or tube). Small Tesla coil type devices are used in the lamp making industry everywhere, but they are small and less dangerous.

One woman, where I worked, would absorb RF energy from a source and touch compact fluorescent lamps with her free hand, lighting them up. Very freakish. Even though she could not feel any pain, I advised her to keep her distance from the source. There is very little documentation of the long term effects of high frequency energy exposure because it is not a common experience.

Clearly, these areas have been explored very throughly since the 1930's and a lot of patents exist for light sources that would not be tolerated due to radio frequency interference. As to "harnessing Whitefire" you must know what you are dealing with exactly and understand its nature. If it can penetrate glass at hundreds of feet (i.e. the tubes or bulbs) than it will not be easy to harness or contain.

Certainly, a plasma can be focused and beamed. We see examples of this in cathode ray tubes of televisions of yesteryear. Plasma can be contained as it is in a fluorescent lamp. But energy losses to the container do occur. And the photons created are the result of higher energy elements throwing off excess energy in order to drop to a lower energy level. The high voltage is what puts the elements into the high energy state in the first place, and that requires a current, albeit potentially very small. In any case, real power is required to produce real photons. Everything else is make believe.

Thanks for your comments.

I want to repeat again that I am not anticipating something for nothing in my quest to answer to major questions about whitefire. I want to know both wavelength and efficiency, but I have no expectation that it will draw zero power. I simply need a highly efficient light source and I started this group to see if anyone had the answers that I'm looking for.

Until I have some hard numbers on whitefire I have no way of evaluating its potential as the light source I'm seeking. We all know there are many different light sources available, but this one has been only reported peripherally without the true experimental documentation needed to at least classify it.

Once I know what those hard numbers are I can easily compare the apples to apples of different concepts, but I'm willing to move forward to experimentation if there is no other way to get those answers. I really want to know.

To explain my reasoning, I've seen these mentions of whitefire and I've stated that I need an intense and efficient light source. It's irrelevant to me whether this has been considered or used before as a source. It exists, I know it exists, and I don't have any more information than that. Given my needs I think I'd be foolish to pretend that I never heard of it and simply look to what's available off the shelf as if they were my only alternatives available. I'm willing to consider things that others perhaps wouldn't, or things perhaps considered at one time and rejected for reasons not relevant to my current requirements.

Once my main questions of wavelength and efficiency are answered it should be easy to decide whether this is just a curiosity or something with a very important real-world application worthy of further development.

In your comment you warned that, "you must know what you are dealing with exactly and understand its nature."

That is precisely the problem. I don't know what it is, nor do I understand its nature. It may take some work to get the hard results, but who knows? Maybe someone has the answers already and will offer them here. That was my hope when I opened this discussion, and, as with whitefire itself, I haven't given up yet!

Thanks again for the thoughtful observations.

Hi,

look at the work done by Nernst.

He was working on heating ceramics for lighting.

Auer did similar with his yttria and thoria containing (absorbed in cotton) "lamps".

The cotton was burnt at first usage leaving a fragile but highly efficient heat to loght converter. Some still existing in petrol-lamps of the high-intensity type.

Maybe we will see this again in the near future, as tungsten may be too costly.

RHABE

Keep me informed

I started this thread because I've seen reports of Tesla's experiments that indicate he created an intense, white light with very low energy consumption. While it may or may not be suitable for standard illumination purposes, I have a special application in mind for which it could be ideal. Of course, it could be a complete bust but I need to know what it was and I'm willing to do whatever I can to find out.

I'm still holding out hope that someone will come across these postings who has information (or will know someone who does), and that it will eventually provide me with something useful.

Stay tuned...this isn't over yet!

I started this thread more than two years ago in the hopes of finding out more about "whitefire" and I'm no farther along now than I was then. I still have found nothing more than the original reference to it. That reference was fascinating because the "zero current" mention. I've said repeatedly that I don't believe that there was no current at all, but what was revealed in the article makes sense. He constructed a primary out of extremely thin copper wire which has high resistance (nearly infinite) at high frequencies, but he found that if the masses of copper between the primary and secondary were equal it didn't matter, because resonance was achieved anyway. So you can have a high-mass, high resistance primary which matches the mass of a low resistance secondary and the idea of nearly "zero current" rings a lot more logical.

I'm reactivating this discussion to see whether anyone has had more thoughts in the intervening time, and also to ask a question of Rhabe, if he sees it.

You spoke of the cotton filaments that we call mantles that are used for camping lanterns, but you referred to them as a "highly efficient heat to light converter". In re-reading this thread two years on, that stuck in my head, because I never thought of those devices in those terms before. I considered them as a means of making a flame glow brightly, but it wasn't really specifically heat that I considered as the source. Maybe I was wrong.

Could such a device (mantle) be induced to generate bright light if it were wrapped around a flameless, heat-only source such as an electrical heating element? Do you have any information on the efficiency of conversion from heat to light? My specific interest is in creating a heat to light converter, which is why that comment has my attention.

I'm still looking for answers about Whitefire, and I'm closer now than I was in 2009 to actually making the effort to find the answers. Any more thoughts that anyone may have had on the subject would be appreciated. I would also love to hear any ideas unrelated to whitefire but which might offer another method of direct and efficient heat to light conversion (without flame) would also be of interest.

I can shed some light on the phenomenon you described. The phenomenon is best described in the book "secrets of cold electricity" A tesla transformer uses high voltage current in conjunction with two resonant coils. This is where conventional electrical physics goes out the window. The rotary spark gap transforms the energy at a certain frequency threshold, around 500k -1m bps, the electricity is "separated from it's ethetic carrier" which causes new phenomenon to manifest itself. This is why tesla said he was getting very large sparks off of only a few turns of copper wire, this "radiant" energy travels faster than light through the copper, freezing the electrons in their place. When you choke out the electrons, this radiant energy manifests itself. This radiant energy rose to a very high potential when it was fed through a coil, so tesla made spiral could that bring this high pressure to a point. This caused the phenomenon of white fire to exhibit itself. Tesla said this fire did not burn and during some of his lab demonstrations, he would engulf himself in this white for. He referenced an anti bacterial effect it had on the skin. I have attempted to find the source where I read this, but I have done so much research on the topic, that I can't seem to find the original article. It was in a book, and I don't believe it is online (until now). I have a friend who replicated the experiments and saw this white fire, but did not dare to touch it. Tesla said that radiant energy was non harmful at those high frequencies, but you should take caution, nevertheless. Hope that helps. I did not make anything up.

that sounds similar to Cherenkov radiation, which moves faster than light-in-water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

I is very similar to Cherenkov radiation. Once the frequency threshold is reached, and a certain pressure is developed in the conical coil, the surrounding air is illuminated. This light can be thought of as an excited state of the ether, but it is not from the air turning into a plasma. Tesla spoke of small highly charged ether particles escaping the coils at rite angles and giving off light.These particles moved through glass and cement barriers with ease, and at certain frequencies, they can be sensed by the body.

Other people who experimented with radiant energy are T.H. Moray, Ismael Aviso, Edwin Grey, and Eric Dollard. Although it is not studied in classical electronics, people are beginning to experiment with it more and more.

If you really want to make white fire, here is how it is made:

A high voltage DC source is connected to a rotary spark gap with at least 100,000 breaks a second. The output is connected to a primary coil, and the other end of that is connected to the negative terminal of the DC power supply. Your second coil must have an equal surface area of copper to the primary for them to be in resonance, but it can be only a few turns of copper as long as the surface area condition is satisfied. One side of this coil is connected to the ground, and the other end is the elevated terminal. The secondary coil should be a conical one, and it should be wound around the primary and the spark gap. at the point of this conical coil, a white fire should appear. Depending on the turns of wire and the input current, it will grow or shrink in size. The secondary coil should have NO MEASURABLE CURRENT at this frequency, because the etheric carrier of electricity moves so fast that electrons stop moving in the copper.

This is the real Tesla coil, the modern day "Tesla Coil" is actually a high frequency transformer developed by another scientist before Tesla. Tesla's coils transformed energy literally, he discovered a new type of electricity all together. John Bedini has been saying this for years, but few people have open minds to accept the reality that there is more than one type of electricity and more than one type of fire. Tesla said all fire is electrical, which explains the flaming discharges that come off of modern high frequency transformers. Tesla's coil ran cold, not hot. The resistance in the copper was negative resistance, so it pulled heat from the environment and converted it into radiant energy. That is why his massive coils did not create immense heat.

Hope that helped, it is the result of years of research and experimentation. Tesla meant for all people to know this information, not just a select few.

Thank you! This is the first explanation I've seen of how it's created.

Do you have any firsthand experience with this? Have you ever seen this phenomenon?

Using your explanation, would you expect to see a constant, 24/7 light source? Do you have any idea of the efficiency or the wavelength of the light created?

This is really of great interest to me and all information is important, but you're the first to offer specifics.

I do not have first hand experience with this. I have not personally witnessed this phenomenon although I know someone who has. This would be an efficient light source because by the time the energy is in the coil, it is no longer electricity. This means that the laws governing electricity no longer apply. This energy, or "cold electricity", can be intensified to virtually any extent, which means that the amount of light produced is only limited by the length of the coil and the frequency of interruption. The light created is unlike the light given off by any other source, although it most closely resembles the effects of sun light. The fire can not be easily photographed because no electronic equipment can withstand the EMP produced by the dynamo, so it must be within a Faraday cage if you are near electronics, power lines, etc. My friend informed me that the surface area and the weight of the copper are both factors, and the coils must also be in wavelength resonance. Tho rotary spark gaps can be replaced with a few magnetically quenched spark gaps, but measures need to be taken so that the magnets are N and S on either side of the gap so that the magnets are in a constant state of attraction, but they must be kept equidistant from the spark gap. A capacitor has to be before the spark gap to ensure unidirectional impulses.

That pretty much sums up everything I know about the white fire phenomenon. I hope some of you have the means to replicate it! I am saving up for a rotary spark gap myself, but I am also having a cold electricity machine being built, which will be interesting to play with.

I will update you guys when I learn more about it.

Everything you need to know and more is in this book:

"The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" (it is on google for free as a PDF)

You can see a video of the author, Peter Lindemann, reading his book on youtube.

The hissing white light he refers to is white fire. The phenomenon is better described as high pressure ether excitation.

Thank you, Ajay70. I will definitely look this up as soon as I can. I had hoped that someone would be able to provide this kind of information when I started the thread.