Previous in Forum: Frequency Inverter is Over Current   Next in Forum: SRC Heating Control
Close
Close
Close
15 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7

Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/14/2009 2:12 PM

Dear all,

What is main different between 2-wire and 4-wire transmitter? There is any advantages of 4-wire transmitter. Can 2-wire and 4-wire selection will depends upon the distance?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United States - Member - USA! Hobbies - Musician - Sound Man Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - More than a Hobby Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: City of Roses.
Posts: 2056
Good Answers: 101
#1

Re: INSTRUMENTATION RELEATED QUESTION?

05/14/2009 2:16 PM

Not sure... But if I had to take a blind guess, Id say the main difference would be two wires.

(depends on application)

__________________
Don't believe everything you read on the Internet!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Earth - I think.
Posts: 2143
Good Answers: 165
#2

Re: INSTRUMENTATION RELEATED QUESTION?

05/14/2009 2:35 PM

Whichever you use, there are only 2 wires going between the instrument and the PLC/DCS.

The difference is that a 2 wire transmitter gets it's power for the 4-20ma (or whatever you use) from the PLC/DCS; while a 4 wire transmitter has it's own power supply to drive the 4-20ma loop.

__________________
TANSTAAFL (If you don't know what that means, Google it - yourself)
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clemson, South Carolina
Posts: 1722
Good Answers: 18
#3

Re: INSTRUMENTATION RELEATED QUESTION?

05/14/2009 3:09 PM

Theoretically, one wire on each side of the sensor is used to supply current to it, and one wire on each side of the sensor is used to send the voltage reading to the measuring instrument. Since there's current in the two wires supplying current, part of the voltage drop is in the wire itself, meaning that the longer the wire, the higher the voltage drop and greater the error. However, since there's no (very, very little) current in the voltage sense wires, there's no voltage drop in the wire, and all voltage drop occurs across the sensor.

__________________
We have met the enemy and he is us . . . Walt Kelly
Register to Reply
Guru
Brazil - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - Hey there... interested in exchanging information about car performance? Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Porto Alegre - RS - Brazil 30deg01'39.73"S 51deg13'43.45"W
Posts: 831
Good Answers: 28
#4

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/14/2009 7:15 PM

The main difference is - as mentioned - that 4 wire transmitters have sepparated power source. But I'd add that its most commom to see 4-wired sensors, which differs from a transmitter as known here in its output signal, which would be in tension, not in current. They are always 4 wired. Distance? Yeah, surelly. But I never experienced a practical case where both couldnt be used with proper wire installation, good power sources and noise protection practices. I run test cells everyday with hundreds of meters of wires to 2-wired transmitters. They do just fine, never had a calibration problem. When you need some reading really far from your measuring point, in a big distributed data acquisition setup, you should go digital. Access virtually anywhere. Of course, speed constraints should be observed.

__________________
Humm... suspicious you are...
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Participant

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Parañaque City, Philippines
Posts: 1
#5

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/14/2009 11:09 PM

First, what specific transmitters you want to discuss? By then we may help you better to your specifics. Regards

__________________
5Zero at your service
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Netherlands - Member - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Japan
Posts: 2703
Good Answers: 38
#6

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/14/2009 11:52 PM

less noise using a 4-wire transmitter compared to a 2-wire transmitter in the same situation

__________________
From the Movie "The Big Lebowski" Don't pee on the carpet man!
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#7

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/15/2009 12:44 AM

The 2 wire transmitter is usually called "loop powered" for obvious reasons. If the final or receiving unit is looking for purely a (say) mA signal, but does not supply (say) 24VDC supply AND had part of the measuring circuit grounded, then a separate 24VDC power supply is needed, and can not be grounded. This is the situation where 24VDC supply is on 2 wires and signal on the other two. Some older PLC's require this configuration. My pref is 2 wire unless stated not to.

Rok

Register to Reply
Commentator
India - Member - ADIL MOULA Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Adil Moula

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: India
Posts: 95
Good Answers: 1
#8

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/15/2009 2:15 AM

hi Ankur,

temperature ,pressure etc conventional transmiters are preferred for 2 wire system (type-2)

magnetic flowmeter ,massflowmeter requires 4wire (2 for power 2 for signal )

(type-4) here distance is more important concern with the sensing element

Refer to ISA S50.01 it categorizes transmitters into two wire,three wire or four wiretypes .

Adil

Register to Reply
Active Contributor
South Africa - Member - Automation & Control Engineer

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Mandeni, South Africa
Posts: 13
Good Answers: 2
#9

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/15/2009 2:57 AM

I think you have enough answers regarding the difference.

Basically each has it's place in a plant design. The 2 wire system gets power from the Analogue input channel or recorder etc. In some instances the voltage available in the circuit to the transmitter may be insufficient for the transmitter to operate with a particular IO brand. In addition you may have a series loop with a recorder and controller. In this case voltage drop across each device in the circuit may cause problems. Here a 4 wire TX would probably be better.

Two wire is easier to implement and look after in the long run.

__________________
Regards, Dave
Register to Reply
2
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#10

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/15/2009 3:29 AM

Some transmitters need more power than can be supplied over the 4-20mA loop for their operation. In this case, a separate power supply will be needed, requiring the extra 2 wires. Otherwise, the instrument derives its power from the loop.

Typical examples include:

  • Magnetic flowmeter, 4-wire
  • Vortex-shedding flowmeter, 2-wire

It's not a question as to which is "better", 2-wire or 4-wire. A magnetic flowmeter could not be used on low conductivity fluids or steam, for example; a vortex-shedding flowmeter would be affected by solids in the fluid whereas a mag-flow is not. Selection takes place on the basis of the suitability of the measuring technique, the size, its availability for use in a zoned hazardous area (many 4-wire instruments are not suited) and, partly, the cost. 2-wire or 4-wire is rarely a consideration in the selection process.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 579
Good Answers: 61
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/15/2009 10:47 AM

GA, PWS.

The other problem which can occur with 2-wire units is overloading the PLC. The transmitter nameplate should have a watt or burden rating. A 4-20mA 2-wire transmitter on a 24V power supply will draw nearly 1/2W at full span (24V x .02A = 0.48W).

Most PLC native power supplies are pretty wimpy. If I have more than 5 loops powered from one PLC, I'll put in an aux power supply to relieve the PLC source.

P2P

__________________
Experience: The knowledge you gain just AFTER you needed it.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#14
In reply to #11

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/18/2009 4:22 AM

It is always better to feed the instruments from something other than the PLC's power supply.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#12

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/16/2009 8:52 AM

However using analog 2 wire is better!

  • cost saving (if you use 4 wires, you have to pay twice for copper)
  • space saving (you don't need to pull heavy/big cable, you can use small cable tray)
  • and low maintenance (easier to troubleshoot)

But for some case, 2 wire is not enough to deliver the power (0,48watt max).

You cannot use 2 wire for transmitter/equipment which requires much power, that is why another 2-wire use to power your device.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

05/16/2009 9:43 AM

Dear Guest,

One BA (bad answer) for you!

Use, at the reception site, a 1 million Watt 24 V dc power supply, connect its minus output to the PLCs analog to digital converter. One wire from your transmitters goes to +24Vdc. The other one goes to your sensing resistor on the ADC module. Thus you can have more than 2 million (each of 0.480 W) transmitters.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#15

Re: Are 4-Wire Transmitters Better?

10/05/2009 4:43 PM

The main difference between 2-wire and 4-wire transmitters is their source of power.

2-wire devices are refered to as "Loop Powered" with power originating from the control system, typically 24 VDC. A single pair of wires is used to create a current loop that delivers transmitter power over the 4-20 mA signal wiring.

A 4-wire device has a separate 4-20 mA current loop for the signal and a second pair of wires connecting the power source to the transmitter. Thus the need for 4 wires.

Most modern transmitter electronics and sensors are available as 2-wire devices that connect to standard 4-20mA inputs of a DCS/PLC, due to highly efficient microprocessor and sensing technologies. Some sensing technololgies still require more power to operate mechanical actuators or sensors, such as coriolis flow meters, Magnetic Flow sensors, or analyzers. For these devices a separate constant power feed is used that is not limited by the control signal current of 4-20 mA.

Ultimately, you should choose the right device/technology for your process sensing needs, considering the installed cost of the device and the benefits of the different solutions. In some cases, a 4-wire solution may be the only option.

Finally, the issue of signal wire distance. This is not complicated. A 4-20 mA current loop generates voltage drops across resistances in the loop. These include the sensing load (250 Ohms), the transmitter and the signal wires. The transmitter controls the current signal by varying its resistance in the loop. A minimum voltage is required at the 2-wire tranmitter so that it has sufficient power to function, usually 10 V at 20 mA. Therefore the voltage drop across the wires is limited and is determined by the wire length and gauge. A 4-wire device gets it's power separately. This allows for some additional distance on the signal wiring over a 2-wire device. However, a typical 18 gauge wire has 6.385 Ohms/1000 ft. At 20 mA, that has a voltage drop of 0.128 Volts per 500 ft of signal pair. With a typical headroom of 5 to 7 Volts, 18 guage wire can allow up to over 20,000 ft for a 2-wire device, approaching 5 miles, and still have enough power for the field device. So distance is typically not the issue here.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 15 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

5Zero (1); Anonymous Poster (4); bhrescobar (1); Bill (1); davegr (1); Epke (1); find2am (1); Kilowatt0 (1); pwr2thepeople (1); PWSlack (2); RVZ717 (1)

Previous in Forum: Frequency Inverter is Over Current   Next in Forum: SRC Heating Control

Advertisement