Previous in Forum: Who Engineered the New Green Roof on the Sears Tower?   Next in Forum: Solar Panel Interference
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Anonymous Poster

Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 6:39 PM

Hello, I am engaged in a project for school to transform a diesel school bus from a parasitic/destructive technology into a symbiotic living organism. This has been done so far with the conversion of its engine to run on purified vegetable oil, aided by an HHO generator, filtered by a Venturi scrubber that is fixed to the exhaust pipe, and will further remediate the output with a series of interconnected microecosystems modeling oceanic and terrestrial ecosystems. The exhaust will be piped and routed to the ecosystems. I have designed them to be 12"x12"x3" and will mount on the outside of each window. The engine's displacement is 636.6 cubic inches.

Could someone help me with the logistics in its construction/implementation? What sort of precautions do I need to take. I am not trained in engineering, and would like to take upon the expertise in this forum. If you have any other questions please ask away. Thank you so much.

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#1

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 6:41 PM

I posted this question, I was just not logged on at the time.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1011
Good Answers: 25
#28
In reply to #1

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 12:14 AM

With all that stuff on the bus you will have to have a trailer for the passengers.

Why not just put a mountain bike pedal and derailleur system at each seat to propel the bus and just use the engine to assist on starts and up hills?

Jon

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#2

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 8:54 PM

"The exhaust will be piped and routed to the ecosystems. "

You better hope and pray and design and test that there is no carbon monoxide in that exhaust stream! What is temperature of the exhaust gas being delivered into your ecosystems? Do you know about nitrous oxides from your veggie fuel? what they will do when combined woth water in your ecosystems?

Have you calculated the volume in cubic feet per minute or cubic meters per minute that will be "flowing" through those microecosystems? How many thousands of these 12 by 12 by 3 ecosystems will there be? at 432 cubic inches for one, and 636.6 cubic inches for rough estimate of exhaust gas volume per rev of the engine, ignoring temperature/ expansion issues, if you have 20 of these ecosystems (assuming 20 windows) you will have a total volume of 8640 cubic inches, enough to hold the first 13.57 revs of the engine's produced exhaust, presuming low resistance to flow and temperatures somehow lowered so you don't kill the flora (and fauna !) in the first couple "ecosystems." Let alone crack the glass. And how will you scale these so thebackpressure won;t extinguish the engine/ or alternatively, the pressure not blow these apart?

What you describe is the design for a wonderful device to execute living things, including possibly the students onboard.

I Nominate this project for the Dr Kevorkian Environmental Award .

I would strongly urge you to reconsider this project.

Perhaps using the exhaust from a stationary diesel (generator) into a pond to feed algae where a measureable quantity of biomass is created and harvested vs a control pond seems to me to be a safer "demonstration." if the epa will let you exhaust exhaust into a surface water in your area.

Sorry for the tough love, but this is ill considered at best.

milo "in the first place do no harm"

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 9:29 PM

I appreciate the response. I needed to mention that there will be a co2 scrubber attached to the exhaust before it makes way into the microecosystems. This will remove 90-99% of the particulate matter from the gas stream. What this will do to the measurements regarding temperature and composition, I am not sure. I do not have any specifics yet as the bus is still in planning stages, so this information is giving me a better sense of direction.

I will not abandon this project, only modify it to make it work. I need to know my limitations and work from there.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 9:32 PM

Also, the system will be mounted externally to avoid any fumes from killing anyone.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 10:16 PM
  1. Lose the HHO generator. To put it mildly, it's a crock of shit . All it will do is reduce your fuel mileage without improving your exhaust quality.
  2. Your plants will actually benefit from CO2, which they will use for food as a carbon source. Expose them to sufficient sunlight to ensure that they can perform photosynthesis effectively.
  3. Particulate matter can be removed with a filter.
  4. Certain species of plants such as the money plant, Epipremnum aureum, and the snake plant, Sansevieria trifasciata, are extremely effective at removing noxious gases from the air. Plant some of these.
__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 11:11 PM

Ya, I have heard that before. I don't mean to use it to run solely on HHO, just supplemented. I have read reports that showed improvements in fuel economy, cleaner emissions, and a hotter more efficient combustion -when done properly. However, at the same time I have heard that it is just a myth. I have not gone down the road myself, it was an option up in the air. Thanks for the plant types, I'll be sure to research them.

And to reply to the comment about the co2 scrubber --the gas runs through a vaporized solution of sodium hydroxide, which will attach to the polarity of the gas, and settle the carbon molecules into a collection tank. It will remove most of the co2 from the flue, leaving only a small percentage to be consumed by the flora. The microecosystems are an extra step, a practical model of the alchemist's philosopher's stone--the bus will emit clean air rather than pollutants.

I will find out the temperatures and information you stated as necessary and post it.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 2:09 AM

"I don't mean to use it to run solely on HHO, just supplemented. I have read reports that showed improvements in fuel economy, cleaner emissions, and a hotter more efficient combustion -when done properly."

Tested under scientific conditions, HHO supplementation has been proven to be a lie. It is possible to run a vehicle entirely on HHO, but producing it will consume much more energy than running your bus on diesel will. Or in short, it's a fool's errand.

"The gas runs through a vaporized solution of sodium hydroxide, which will attach to the polarity of the gas, and settle the carbon molecules into a collection tank. It will remove most of the CO2 from the flue, leaving only a small percentage to be consumed by the flora."

If I were you I'll let ALL of the CO2 be consumed by the plants. What I'd do rather is to grow the plants in a hydroponic system, with the exhaust passing through pipes in the water to cool it before allowing it to emerge into the plant bed. The water will be warmed by the exhaust, helping to stimulate plant growth, while the plants will sequester the carbon in the form of biomass. Carbon monoxide, CO, is harmless to plants as they don't possess hemoglobin. Also, bacteria present may consume it to form biomass. For the tiny amount of unburnt organics, allow the exhaust to diffuse through a layer of moist soil before discharging it over the plants: bacteria in the soil will absorb and break them down.

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#88
In reply to #8

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/31/2009 2:05 PM

The injection of CO2 gas into water will acidify the water. Plant roots are very sensitive to pH. You would need to inject a base solution to counter the acidification. However, you must take care not to adversely increase salinity, as plants are sensitive to increased salinity (some less so than others). Also, Plants can be poisoned (just like all life) by high levels of CO2 (they are just less sensitive than animals).

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#86
In reply to #7

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/31/2009 1:47 PM

But you actually need to put more energy (cost) into the HHO than you get out. Its a lose lose situation.....many do not understand that at all well, so you are not alone, do not be upset.....

The tip to drop it completely will be a great help to you.......efficiency rules.....!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/19/2009 10:34 PM

"co2 scrubber attached to the exhaust before it makes way into the microecosystems. This will remove 90-99% of the particulate matter from the gas stream. "

The CO2 scrubber is to remove CO2? or to remove only particulates? If it removes CO2, then what is to be bioremediated? If it is to remove particulates, that is the one thing I wasn't really worried about.

I remain concerned about CO (carbon monoxide.) And temperature of exit gas through/into microecosystems. And volume of gas produced.

The data that I think you need is temperature of exhaust gas; Volume of exhaust gas, and CO and NOx and SOx analysis of exhaust gas. Then amount of CO2 that your microecosystems can "Process." And how that compares to dwell time in your microecosystems.

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 30413
Good Answers: 819
#9

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 3:37 AM

In BBC television's "Top Gear" programme recently, the motoring journalist Jeremy Clarkson demonstrated a novel exhaust gas emissions neutralising device connected to the towbar and tailpipe of a Range Rover. The device consisted of an aluminium-framed glasshouse filled with tomato plants.

Something of that nature, perhaps?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 10:14 AM

As I understand it, basically.

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#13
In reply to #9

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:25 AM

Yes, it runs along the same principles. Only it needs to be scaled to metabolize the 1160 caterpillar engine's emissions. The ecosystems will also be a source of food. The goal is to get the bus to be self-sufficient -a semi-closed loop system.

The scrubber is a fail safe in case the microecosystems cannot keep up with the flow rate. Though I had in mind what you had said DV...the piping running through the water for cooling. I would also like to tap the heat and use it for other purposes such as showering, cooking, or internal heat. You think the Emporer will fund something like this...it is not quite up his ally: this is like a lifestar than deathstar haha.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:47 AM

That's where you got it all wrong. We have such systems on all the interstellar ships of the Star Fleet, including the Death Star.

How else do you think I can understand exactly what you're trying to achieve?

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#16
In reply to #14

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:59 AM

haha any junked star ships that I can part out?

I contacted an engineering firm called Living Machines where they do this stuff on a large scale, hopefully I will get a response that contains all the information I need, if not peak their interest into getting involved.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#10

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 7:32 AM

DVader1000 was being nice; this is a bad idea.

Have you done any sort of business plan on this? Polled potential customers? Which school board will allow thirty or forty of their little brats darlings to be guinea pigs on this? Have you looked at school system budgets across the US right now and considered the futility of getting any of them to invest in new buses? I mean with serious ROI numbers?

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#12
In reply to #10

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:18 AM

This is not to be used for transporting kids, I live in the bus, so I am my own guinea pig. And the funding has come out of my pockets so far, but I formed an npo to establish a means for donations.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#15

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:55 AM

This is the information I got from a vegetable oil forum:

Temp will vary from 200F to 1600F when the turbo begins to melt, all depending on load and boost.

Volume will also depend on load and boost

CO will be a little less than diesel, N0x will be a little higher and you will have no SOx becasue there is no sulfur in VO.

I'll fish for more specific numbers.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#17
In reply to #15

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 1:49 PM

I am impressed with your commitment to get this done. That is a positive trait.

I am frustrated that we haven't been able to pull any more quanititative analyses regarding pounds of co2 produced (mass balance) and loading (co2 produced per unit time) vs microecosystems ability to incorporate CO2 into biomass per unit time. Its literally like hooking up a locomotive to a watch mechanically- Engine putting out C02 in pounds per hour; biomass conversion unlikely to get to pound per day. How many pounds of flippin tomato plants and soil and water and greenhouse and trailer would you have to tow behind the bus to "convert" just one pound of fuels worth of Co2 per hour?

Think inputs in mass and volume and outputs in mass and volume and then try to find rates to match. Hint on tomato plants- fruit weight is 62-70% water; at prime of season, tomatoes yield 2.0 -2.5 # of fruit per 7 days in a commercial greenhouse(I realize fruit isn't total biomass, but this is a number as a starting point for production estimation.

Think of how to synchronize/ match outputs to uptake, in mass, volume, and time.

FInally: 200 degrees and above will kill all your microecosystem dwellers unless you set up with worms from volcanic vents...

Energy needed to cool exhaust gases will exceed the output of the engine given the volume available to remediate the exhaust.

Energy wise, you are "trying to make a small fortune- from a very large one."

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 6:08 PM

I am trying to find out this information. I am going back and forth between a few different forums to find this out, but have not gotten any specific answers. I do not plan to use tomato plants, mostly phytoplankton and blue-green algae. They are super productive and can be used to produce fuel for the engine. I am very aware that this is no small task, but I am more than up for the challenge. I'll look for the information you requested.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 7:50 PM

I found this on the EPA website:

CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon

That is a lot of co2...this is for diesel though, which will only be operated to prime the vegetable oil to the right temperature (170-190 degrees). However I would like to base my numbers off of diesel just to give me a good deal of cushioning. My bus gets 8-10 mpg, so if I am at a cruising rate of a maximum speed of 70mph then in an hour of steady driving I will release 194.25 pounds of co2 per hour of driving.

Looking at these numbers I feel the venturi scrubber is necessary to bring down these numbers. They claim to remove 90-99% of the co2 from the gas flue, so with that in mind, after the "scrub" the vehicle will release 19.425 pounds of co2 per hour -a much more reasonable number.

Again since I am basing these numbers off of diesel, I will have a good deal of flexibility with the ME's. An approach that I take with all my endeavors is 'hope for the best, plan for the worst'.

Now I need to look up the metabolic rates of the intended biota and take it from there. Thanks for the direction Milo!

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 8:05 PM

I am looking up the rate of metabolism for phytoplankton but the numbers vary so much. http://www.gdrc.org/oceans/fsheet-02.html

So far no good leads but I'll try some more. I am waiting for Living Machines to respond with some usable information -since it is proprietary they are reluctant to unveil any specifics, though I am trying to coax them into donating services to this project. I'll post back when I find something usable.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#21
In reply to #19

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 9:39 PM

I'll look up some biomass productivity . coming right up. salt water estuaries/ marshes are the most productive biota on the planet, according to my college course work back in the day, so i'll look from a somewhat different angle.

milo

here's a link: note oxygen consumption issue!

http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/LimitsPondBiomass.PDF

Chlorella was used for planning for space systems. see especially introduction and table 1 in this, ten days is time period for algae to increase 879%... then how do you get rid of the algae? will each microecosystem hold an 879% by weight increase in mass of algae, and how will they get oxygen? dont want these to go anaerobic on you!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2660655

milo

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 9:45 PM

I am really grateful for your help. Honestly I wouldn't have known where to start. I am more of an abstract thinker than linear, but I am working on it. You the man!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 10:08 PM

This really is the link.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2660655

Section 4 conclusion give s a rate of fixation in mg/liter/day and then breaks it out to hectare and photon density.

Section 5 experimental section describes organism, apparatus etc.

In the references section, all the pubmed links are worth the look- then you'll be the expert!

But I would make the effort to get a library copy of reference #16 (not avail on web:

Sakai N, Sakamoto Y, Kishimoto N, Chihara M, Karube I. Chlorella strains from hot springs tolerant to high temperature and high CO2. Energy Conv. Manag. 1995;36:693–696.This would help you understand both exhaust temperature limits and cO2 effects! since its also chlorella, its like a hat trick!

The hot link at reference 9 might help you generate a "biofuels" from your "biomass produced": 9)Sakai N, Sakamoto Y, Kishimoto N, Chihara M, Karube I. Chlorella strains from hot springs tolerant to high temperature and high CO2. Energy Conv. Manag. 1995;36:693–696. [PubMed] Note, no perpetual motion, you won't make more biofuel than the fuel you burned to feed it if the systemsis closed. Spend some time with the references on this paper, and then you will be THE MAN! And I will be your FAN! milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#27
In reply to #22

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:54 PM

A word of warning here: algae doubles in mass everyday, so you'll need to harvest it everyday. Also, microscopic algae is extremely tiny, so you'll need a really fine mesh plankton net to harvest them. Maybe you can try using them to feed daphnia, and then harvest the daphnia for fishfood.

If you know the chemical formula of the WVO, you can calculate its molecular mass. From there, you can calculate how much oxygen it will require to burn it completely, as well as how much CO2 and H2O would theoretically be produced. The basic formula of biodiesel is CnH2n+1COOCH3, with the value of n depending upon the type of vegetable oil used. If you can find out how much carbon there is in the algae, you can get a fairly close estimate how much carbon will be removed. As mentioned above, 1 kilogram of algae (dry weight) can double to form 2 kilograms in 24 hours under ideal conditions. This means that if the algae is 50% carbon by mass, then every 24 hours 1 kilogram of algae will remove 500 grams of carbon from the air.

Here's a suggestion . Since you have no idea what temperature your exhaust gas is, try passing it through a fin-lined copper pipe with a ram airscoop jacket . This will help cool it to a more tolerable temperature before you pass it into the water. Heh, you realize that we're actually discussing how to pass gas here ? Luckily for me, my mask has a carbon filter so there's little real impact on me .

By the way, even scrapped starships are still the property of the Imperial Star Fleet, so you'll need to write to Emperor Palpatine himself for permission to take the bioremediation system of a scrapped ship. The good news is that he's always open to scientific research. The bad news is that if it works out, he'll want it back, and you'll be coopted to work on it. If you refuse, well, then you'll get a personal visit from me, and believe me, nobody, but nobody in the entire galaxy wants that.

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#32
In reply to #19

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 9:32 AM

"CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon"

So, you get more mass than the original ammount even after you converted about 30 percent of the fuel into energy?

WOW !!! you are creating materia, forget about plants that can take 20 punds of whatever and grow before your eyes. You'd better focuss on the creation of universe, perhaps create your own and become God.

Yahlasit

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 9:48 AM

Not going into semantics, but the mass of the oxygen is not in the fuel, thats why the number grows; process is not "creating materia" its adding atmospheric Oxygen to caarbon and hydrogen in the fuel.

Fuel = carbon. atomic weight of carbon= 12;

Oxygen, not in fuel, atomic weight of 16, O2= 32;

CO2 = 12 + 32= 44 m.w. 44/12=3.6667 X mass of the carbon in fuel=Mass of CO2 produced.

Ignoring for the moment the Hydrogen in the diesel fuels being oxidized to water;

Looking at the hydrogen contained in the fuel:

fuel = hydrogen. atomic weight 1; H2 = 2

Oxygen, not in fuel, atomic weight of 16,

H2O= 2+16 = 18; 18/2= 9X the mass of hydrogen in the fuel is produced as water.

Perhaps you missed Chemistry class that day.

Combustion is Science, not theology.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#37
In reply to #33

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 12:12 PM

Enlightening, thanks; but still HyArborean won't get away with it.

If he ever does, we all will hear about it.

Amen

Yahlasit

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#38
In reply to #37

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 12:44 PM

I'm thinking that you won't be asking for a seat on the bus?

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Environmental Engineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere Emperor Palpatine assigns me
Posts: 2776
Good Answers: 101
#50
In reply to #32

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 11:52 PM

Yahlasit, the oxygen that adds on to the mass comes from the atmosphere. If you add up the total mass of carbon dioxide and water vapor produced from the burning of the fuel with the remaing air used to burn it, it will be the same as the mass of unburnt fuel and unconsumed air.

I'm not saying Hyperborean's project will work as well as he hopes. It will definitely have some impact: the question is how much. Will it be significant, or will it be negligible? And that's why I'm encouraging him; so that everyone here can learn something from his experiment.

Maybe you could add something worthwhile here instead of contributing to global warming with all your hot air.

__________________
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side of the Force
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 442
Good Answers: 32
#35
In reply to #19

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 10:43 AM

Have you calculated how much sodium hydroxide (NaOH) you will need to remove the CO2? It takes approximately .9 lbs of NaOH to remove 1 lb of CO2.

You would need about 3 times as much NaOH as VO fuel by weight to do the scrubbing, and then you will have the byproducts to get rid of, although the byproducts are benign and may even have commercial value.

Tad

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 186
Good Answers: 22
#24

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 10:58 PM

I think maybe you have been smoking your socks.........or worse.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA 45.952N -123.976W
Posts: 73
Good Answers: 3
#25

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:15 PM

When I was a Wild Weasel in the (US)AF, we had a saying:

YGBSM

Sorry I could not be more polite...

__________________
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Sir Arthur Charles Clarke
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#26
In reply to #25

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/20/2009 11:31 PM

no but when the humanure system on the bus is complete then i will be shitting you. I fail to understand your skepticism.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Good Answers: 10
#29

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 12:41 AM

I wish you well in trying to 'greenify' your bus. We do need to try to develop better means of reducing polution. Hopefully you haven't bought into the bad science and even stupider politics of global warming and preventing it by going green. A few notes however. Not meant to be mean but may possibly sound a bit that way - partly because I've got to get this out quick as I don't have much time. Just relating reality.

When did a school bus suddenly become a parasitic/destructive technology? What school class is this?

HHO is the name some crackpots and con artists gave to water. Everyone else calls it water or H2O. Scammers claim that by energizing the water by putting electrodes in it and running a current you will provide the world with a clean energy source. Running the current sinply wastes a lot of expensive electricity and also removes metal from one electrode and plates impurities in the water onto the other. Essentially you change the impurities in your tap water. A vehicle boosted by water? Well, we can cool the engine with it - we've been doing that a long time - mixed with other stuff of course to raise the boiling point and prevent corrosion. Some claim that by mixing water (oops - HHO) in with the fuel it will produce a more even and more complete burn in the combustion chamber, making the car more efficient. None of this has ever been proven in the 60 or more years this crap has been pushed on an unsuspecting public by scam artists. 60 years of can't prove it in hundreds to thousands of independent tests kind of says something don't you think? It is utter hogwash. Period. It will not help you. The articles you have read are pure fabrication of those who are trying to scam you and even a few from completely deluded souls who are too wasted to realize they are fooling themselves. Yes, I've seen and read the articles too. Do not believe them. You cannot believe everything you read - especially on the internet.

A vehicle run on nothing but water as mentioned by Vader? Yes, the space shuttle. It burns oxygen and hydrogen and produces water. The energy comes from the recombination of the oxygen atom with the two hydrogen atoms. To get extra energy for your bus you would have to dissociate the atoms first so that you could then recombine them. This yields no net energy increase as you simply get back the energy used to dissociate them. However, any time we go through any change process, we lose energy because of inefficiencies in those processes.

Not sure what in the world you have in mind when you mention microecosystems - oil munching bacteria? tubes full of dirt (terrestrial) or saltwater (oceanic)? Whatever it is that you are planning for the exhaust please remember that until tested, having exit ports next to your windows is begging for death by gassing for anyone on the bus. Do your homework and fully test it before doing such a thing.

Remember that an engine needs some backpressure to work properly. Not enough backpressure and you have just increased the inefficiency and the amount of bad exhaust products. However, too much backpressure and it won't work at all. Everything you add to the exhaust to remove particulate etc will increase the backpressure. The muffler and catalytic converter (if equipped) already remove a very large portion of what you want to eliminate. They already provide the proper backpressure for the engine. If you remove these and replace them with something else, make sure that you are appropriately filtering the exhaust and that the noise being produced does not exceed local ordinances. If you are adding to them, you are increasing that backpressure and the vehicle will run less efficiently or not at all.

A more appropriate school project would be simply to get the beast running on vegetable oil and verify that what you have done has actually reduced the exhaust emissions and if not, figure out what you need to do in order to accomplish your goal with existing engine tuneability and technology - make it work better - even if you don't quite get the performance you'd like it would be an interesting and worthwhile report and project and would help a lot of people to know what worked or didn't work for you. Learning what makes it produce less polution and what makes it run better or more efficiently would be a good thing. If you accomplish this and still have extra time for your school project, then you can start looking into better exhaust systems and try a few things out. You can test out whatever you have in mind for your micro-ecosystems and see if it actually helps or not. Report your successes and your failures. That would be interesting.

Hate to break this last one, but the bus will never become a symbiotic living organism - not at least in the correct definition of the phrase. However, if you work smart, you may be able to significantly reduce the pollution it produces which is a worthy goal and just might help the rest of the world.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 1084
Good Answers: 54
#30

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 2:00 AM

Hmm it's an interesting idea.

There have been a number of closed ecosystem projects attempted before, I think one was called BIOSPHERE2, perhaps you could have a look at it and the problems they had.

__________________
If there's something you don't understand...Then a wizard did it. As heard on "The Simpsons".
Reply
Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US Based
Posts: 9
#31
In reply to #30

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 8:25 AM

The internal combustion engine I suppose it's coming to the end of it's lifetime, it's just an all around poor idea, with all that steel and petroleum and asphalt disfigurement of the planet... The nice symbiotic machine you're looking for is called a bicycle - I used to run it to and from school, day or night, rain or snow, uphill both ways. If I had a federal grant I would use it to study a bunch of kids in the bus pedaling a big leather power transfer belt and lineshaft, like in the old factories in England, with a bosun up front setting the pace, and a steersman and brakeman in the back setting the course. For another fistful of dollars, a sail! Or we might want to lay down tracks to the school and get a steam operated locomotive - the iron horse is what opened Texas to it's current civilized state. Seriously, are kids going to be going to school ten years from now? Only 43% go now. Can't they watch it on their Kindle?

__________________
Dirt washes off. Money sticks.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#34
In reply to #31

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 9:51 AM

Hey xstek99:

"Seriously, are kids going to be going to school ten years from now? Only 43% go now. Can't they watch it on their Kindle?"

This would make a great discussion all by itself. How about starting it as a discussion yourself? upper right hand corner. STart a discussion box.

Looking forward to the comments this pulls in, We home schooled our brood ourselves.

Looking forward to your new discussion.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US Based
Posts: 9
#47
In reply to #34

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:44 PM

You right, it's now it's own serious thread in General Discussion 'Ten Years in the Future.' I hate to just criticize without at least a little germ of an idea thrown out to spark interest.

__________________
Dirt washes off. Money sticks.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#49
In reply to #47

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 4:20 PM

Great!

See you there!

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#36

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 11:09 AM

Hahaha, is this just a sarcastic test.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#39
In reply to #36

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 12:51 PM

...no it is the manifestation of a needed shift in principles.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#40
In reply to #39

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 1:52 PM

Well it all sounds like a thread started by someone educated trying to sound like a high uneducated hippie wannabe just to see how much he can irritate the engineers and chemists with his ignorant comments. So someone needs to own up to the joke now, please.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#41
In reply to #40

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 1:57 PM

actually he did in post #1.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#42
In reply to #40

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 2:58 PM

with all undue respect...how petty are you? Are you butt hurt because you cannot come up with a good idea? I may not be an engineer but I am well trained in psychology and I could write a book on your pathetic nature alone. Maybe you need to reevaluate your principles if you feel the need to attack a visionary project. What do you work for Exxon or something?

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#43

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:00 PM

An ice bag tied to your head would be a better remediation for your head full of hot air.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#44

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:05 PM

Zing! Draft up some better responses.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 331
Good Answers: 10
#45

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:10 PM

Let me start with, I love questions like these. I usually tend to upset other engineers anyways! If engineers and designers thought outside the box more often (no pun against anyone on here. It is just what I see on a daily basis), I wouldn't have a job as a pollution prevention (P2) engineer. P2 itself wouldn't be necessary or even exist. Sustainability wouldn't be an issue either as it would have already been implemented during the design phase of the construction of the project. No matter what you do, it will still be a carbon positive vehicle. You can reduce the carbon emissions from the vehicle, but not the fuel manufacturing, mining/drilling/processing, and transportation.

"interconnected micro-ecosystems modeling oceanic and terrestrial ecosystems. The exhaust will be piped and routed to the ecosystems. I have designed them to be 12"x12"x3" and will mount on the outside of each window."

Why not make the entire roof of the bus an ecosystem? In a terrestrial ecosystem, you could vent the exhaust directly into the soil after a heat exchanger. Leave the system open to the air and don't worry about watering as much or CO2 poisoning the plants. There would be plenty of sunlight for all of the plants or the algae without the shadow of the bus interfering. The ecosystem could be much larger and handle more emissions. Also, putting the system on the roof moves the emissions away from the window of the bus with a reduced risk of killing the passengers and driver and anyone else on the road when the driver passes out.

I think enough people have commented on the HHO scam.

My 0.02 on your design. Good luck with the project and remember, nobody can refute measurable and reproduceable results.

__________________
"We cannot sow thistles and reap clover. Nature simply does not run things that way. She goes by cause and effect." Napoleon Hill
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#46
In reply to #45

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:20 PM

Thank you. I have considered the ME being on the roof originally, but that would greatly affect the handling of the bus, but I would like explore more into the possibility. Why not have both right?

You speak the unfortunate truth about the futility of being carbon negative. I am going to gauge the effectiveness of the design application through carbon footprint assessments, and use that to refine my methods. I would like to run the numbers behind the true cost of diesel and see if it is anywhere near possible to counter.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#48
In reply to #46

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 3:53 PM

Well when you run the numbers for the carbon footprint, try to take a true accounting for the cost of ancillaries needed for the fuel(remember NaOH requires electricity to manufacture), the loss in fuel mileage due to increased drag and the increased structural support, the cost of water for irrigation (which btw will be substanitally more than typical as you will increase evapotranspiration from the plants), and the increased vehicle insurance cost due to increased risk of injury to passangers (assuming that once the City contacts their insurance group that they will approve the transportation system). Also, because plants are just a very short-term temporary carbon trap, when they die they decay and release much of that carbon back to the atmosphere in a very short period (few weeks to months) depending on moisture conditions and temperature, you will need to either account for that release of carbon from the plant residue, or dispose of the plant residue in some way that stops decay (bury it very deep in a dry cell) or recycle it into a fuel, which will add more costs (and carbon from energy). I would recommend burying the plant residue very deeply in a dry cell (or below the groundwater reduction layer), then it is nearly permanently removed from the atmosphere (and will become coal one day). Also, if you use carbon scrubbers where do you dispose of the waste, and you will generate a lot of waste. Also, if you build where there is air flow, you must consider the integrity, water usage, and respiration of the plant tissues (yes plants breathe air too, unless you pump in oxygen also) in high velocity winds. Also, consider the weight of adding approximately 150 to 200 lbs per squre foot of coverage, how does this effect braking distance, roll over, tires, lateral sliding, the structural integrity of the bus, etc..

And when you see what is involved and how much the actual cost is, you will realize why this seemed like a joke thread.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#55
In reply to #45

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 9:13 AM

If engineers and designers thought outside the box more often (no pun against anyone on here. It is just what I see on a daily basis), I wouldn't have a job as a pollution prevention (P2) engineer. P2 itself wouldn't be necessary or even exist.

WW, is this not why we, as engineers and designers, employ the talents of artisans, who are the creative driving force behind the implementation and real world adaptation of our ideas? These are the true creative geniuses, as they are able to lift from an abstract conceptualization, a completed, working application.

Thinking outside the box might not be such a bad idea. our combined talents could produce world revolutionizing results. Just a thought...

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#51

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/21/2009 11:52 PM

It just popped in my head that I can lengthen the exhaust pipe in proportion to the backpressure caused by the Venturi scrubber, (as well as cooling). I would imagine it would be in a state of flux so I wonder how that would affect idling,

Will the pressure be in proportion to the relative speed?

Also I forgot to mention that in a few months or so after some grant approvals I will be installing a 1000 watt PV system to the roof, which should provide ample energy. As well as generate/store power when stationary.

This project is an independent research that I am pursuing. This is not to transport children or anything commercial. I am using its final product as a model for a book I am writing on the necessary paradigm shift to live stably and harmoniously within the ecological context. This is a model serving for a multitude of purposes; biomimicry technologies, ecological integration, permaculture, and the embedded principles that provide chreodes to harmony. This is the title of the book: A Chreode to Harmony: Pathways from Parasitism to Symbiosis. I hope that clarifies the nature of my project. This is my own funding aside from potential contributions and grants.

My name is Haddy Yosef, I am a 22 year old student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington, and I assure you (or just wait and see) that this project is certainly no joke.

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 24
#52

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 12:12 AM

I applaud your faith hope and love for a challence. The vege bio-d burns best as a gas above the 160* fugacity of injected bio-d. Turbo's. Converting a Diesel to cleaner fuel decloggs the system realeasing built up sediment so change the filter regular and often after conversion since fuel flow is critical pressure. The HHO system is newer technology. I believe, Water(split by electrolysis) creates H on one electrode and O at the other .seperated they can be valuable until recombined. When and where to add the Created fuels to the system depends on the desired reaction and results. I believe the post turbo injection,I've heard about from people out there doing the HHO diesel thing, and they haven't been shut down yet, so I assume it probably works on some level.I have found that They are usually very willing to help. You can reinvent a wheel, but Tires or tyres are the same thing,I'd find the best system HHO who helps you plan it out, and hire them. I'm not sure if they are burning the O or the H. recombining them after complete combustion may cool the exhaust as well. Steam can be very corrosive however, and stainless will be required for parts of the process, although expensive, may be required where H and O are recombined I'm not that up on venturi scrubbers. What you're talking about there, reminds me of the BlueTec system that is coming out on the new Mercedes and BMW's that are diesel, and require some (ammonia?) (NH4?) or something like that. Handling this can be dangerous, but one of the Bluetec byproducts I believe is H2O and that may augment a H20 based oceanic system. Knowing the Algae formulae would probably help also. I think Iceland has some of the most lienient info sharing. Staying stuck to US based info may not allow the patent sharing info you require as fuel for thought in creating your own unique system. Will you call it the quest system? Photosynthesis of CO2 requires sunlight I'd place the ecosystems on the roof where light would be more consistent. The CO/HHO2 take up there would produce Oxygen for the terrestrial components of your educational demonstration. The Algae from the aquatic component could be filtered for algae based bio-d . Can I help you out, I'm an avid learner, embace your vision, mechanically inclined. I know a couple friends I could get to help. One a GM mechanic who was working on thier HHO systems. I helped assemble a Bio-d plant in Milan MI, and consulted on the processing, but not the management, and the latter may have been the planned obsolesence component to consume the concept and portray it as unfeasible inorder to restrict opposition, you probably are hitting some of that here too. I hope I have remained possitive and insightful, since these are fundamental to creativity. Possitive dreams and thoughts going your way.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#53
In reply to #52

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 1:43 AM

It would be an honor and a privilege to have your assistance. I could not do it alone, and we are both in it for Gaia. Thank you for your interest. What did you have in mind?

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#54
In reply to #53

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 8:57 AM

I do have a question as to how you plan on "recycling" the generated biomass, as there will certainly be an excess growth stimulated by the enriched CO2 environment. Will you compost, or do you have an alternative plan?

I have never considered myself to be this or that. I have been too busy being myself to consider myself at all.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#57
In reply to #54

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 11:31 AM

There are a number of things I plan to do with it. For the algae and phytoplankton (assuming the composition after remediation is safe to eat) will be harvested for nutrition, also processed to use as fuel for the engine, as well as any residual biomass will be composted via fungi and either sold as fertilizer, or just scattered on the land as I go.

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 24
#56
In reply to #53

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/22/2009 9:49 AM

I'm currently a part time employee in Ann Arbor,MI as a stagehand. Money isn't flowing fast, part time and all. I seem to have too much time on my hands, mind wanders, thoughts manifest but results never are achieved.I get depressed due to a lack of progress. I'd relocate for housing accomodations(I've camped out alot), reasonable low wage if location was right and 40 hours or more, and full time focus on the project. I have traveled the country in school buses with the AEI Audubon Expedition Institute. Received a BS in Expedition Education, which focuses on experiential education. I'd love to use the project as a classroom for the technology to be distributed, It would seem to have alot of opportunity, wow I might even be able to teach again. Mainly I need to reoccupy my time with Eco based influence. I seemed to have faded out of Env. Ed. and Eco freindly thoughts and miss it. What is the timeline, restrictions and location for the manifestation of your project. Can I start tomorrow? I get some $ on friday, and could bus, to US location on short notice if we iron out details. My phone # is 734-686-0280 yours truly one4gaia@gmail.com, one4gaia.com(working on my fathers house)

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 24
#58
In reply to #53

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 6:55 PM

ideally it sounds like a bio-d bus, but if this is yur plan let me tale on the coat tales. I have access to several buses at the moment. @ are gas. The bio-d is being used as a delivery truck for Audio equip. I did donate some books a couple, years ago, in Ypsilanti, MI . They had a diesel pusher, eco/green non profit status etc, but it might take me a week or so to track them down. Do you have a bus. I am a pragmatic sorta guy so if my solution doesn't seem complete or realistic I could use the guidance. Due to the specs for your terrestrial and aquatic environs, you might have a plan in place. The spent fuel from a couple of seconds of startup might make most of what we need at any given moment in terms of Gasseous Air for biological conversion. To make and modify the system do we use humanoid power over electricity.? Do we aim to accept manifested contribution, intuition and imput

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#59
In reply to #58

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 9:15 PM

Bio-diesel and PVO (purified vegetable oil) are two different things. Bio-d is processed with all sorts of stuff and energy intensive, PVO is filtered. It will be an onboard filtration system, just suck up the used grease from restaurants and then it goes on to a conical bottomed filtration tank, leading into a 1 micron filter, then into a 100-gallon "clean" tank. I have a bus already, a 1973 Gillig 636D model. It has an 1160 catepillar engine, 35 feet long. I have a rough (not to scale) blue print of the features that it will soon (financially willing) have that I will enclose in this forum. It will be initialized with diesel, meaning that it will run on diesel fuel until the coolant temperature reaches at least 170 degrees. At that point a microprocessing system will indicate the temperate and switch over to the vegetable oil tank via solenoids. As the PVO is burnt, the exhaust will be routed into a venturi scrubber. This scrubber will remove the bulk of the co2 (quantity is relative upon conditions) and then routed into the microecosystem that is the basis of this topic. I would like to use humanoid power, however this will not be a commercial transportation. It will most of the time be soley myself inside the bus (I live in it and operate my NPO from it --low impact living). So I cannot rely on human power (pedals if that is what you are referring to). Between the scrubbers, microecosystems, and PVO, hopefully I can whittle the numbers down to the point where they may be a negative carbon output (not net as the extraction and processing of diesel is energy intensive). Though, considering that I will be using only a minute fraction of diesel per run, it may be possible (who knows? unless you are a mathematician). So far what I have is this: A bus as stated above, a PVO system thanks to Frybrid Inc. though I still await the final components, and everything else is still in planning. My independent study contract for this summer is to design and have fabricated a co2 scrubber and the microecosystems, as well as research and size a photovoltaic system (1000 watts, enough to power a small mobile eco-friendly festival based on the principles behind this project and expressed through poesis (art, music, poetry, etc). The question I posed for this forum is to determine the logistical approach to manifesting these principles into application. I need help with the calculations of the microecosystem, the necessary steps, and any constructive feedback that will lead to the final product: a bus that is self-sufficient (food water shelter production), cleans the air as it drives, and an applied model for the principles vital for a sustainable future which will be deeply explained in a book I am writing titled A Chreode to Harmony: Pathways from Parasitism to Symbiosis. I am looking for all the help I can get, there are far too many balls to juggle here, and am seeking active interest and expertise to aid in the manifestation of this vision. I am not sure what else I need to state in order to clarify, I hope this served as a good answer. As of now I am away from the bus itself and cannot make any physical improvement on the project, so what I hope is to gain the necessary information so that when the time comes (sooner rather than later- this summer preferably) I may have the designs in place so that I may complete these aspects. I am still looking for a co2 scrubber, every company I have talked to has been for industrial purposes and do not wish to busy themselves with a small project as this. The microecosystem fabrication depends completely on the metabolic rate of the components of the ME's, and the space/energy available. As stated earlier, there will be a 1000 watt energy source atop the bus to compensate for energy demands for the bioremediation process. All I need is the numbers and logistics. I reached out on this forum to gain allies in this project to share the knowledge that each person is specialized within. So if anyone out there knows more about this stuff than I do (and I am 100% positive there are as I am just a visionary but lack specification) then please lend a hand. When this really does happen, great things are possible, not for ego's sake but for the positive manifestion for a paradigmatic shift from parasitism to symbiosis, which could lead to the salvation of our species from evolutionary phase out.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#60
In reply to #59

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 9:22 PM
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#61
In reply to #60

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 9:38 PM

1000 watts is less than the power needed to operate a typical hair dryer.

I note no refrigerator.

Grrenhouse under bed and under counter growing presumes light unless bed counter and walls of bus are transparent for sunlight.

I do not see battery storage for 1000 watts of photovoltaic.

Carbon negative must be carefully "defined " if you are burning diesel, PVO, and wood in woodstove.

AGAIN I CAUTION YOU ABOUT SAFETY> WOODSTOVE ON BUS, EXHAUST REROUTING, Carbon monxide sensors are critical. Fir extinguisher too.

What are you doing about insulation to minimize heat losses in cold, heat pickup when hot?

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#63
In reply to #61

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 10:10 PM

I do not use a refrigerator, most of my food is fresh, raw, and will hopefully be sufficiently produced on the bus. The greenhouse will use LED technologies, battery storage is below the bus in the under storage. I have an updated sketch (to scale 1:40) though it is a pdf file and cannot be attached to this forum, which includes the battery system. I am currently reading a photovoltaic design and installation guide which will better prepare me for the sizing/equipping of pv's to the demands of the project so it is still up in probability land. The bus is well insulated and will use space blankets as window curtains to absorb heat in the winter. The stove is mainly for the sauna i hope to install, water on heated rocks. For the most part, I love the cold, and use a big fat down blanket and covers for the cold. I use very little energy for self-maintenance. I have lived on this bus for 2 years now without any power source and have managed just fine. I have not even had plumbing, so everything else will be a luxury in relation. I will take the precautions you recommend to the safety on the bus. It has co detectors, and the woodstove will be surrounded by fireproof material, and there are 5 extinguishers to battle chaos.

Carbon negative is an ideal that I am working towards, it will not be reached immediately, though as it goes it will be refined, if not just offsetted. techically PVO is carbon neutral as the plants absord/release only the co2 it acquires during its growth. The only issue is diesel's true cost, and the stove, though I hope to use humanure or biomass as fuel, which would be released either way (unless I killed myself ha, too dedicated for me). I want to look up the true carbon footprint for the bus, I have the modeling equipment, though without actual numbers, it is just an estimate.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#69
In reply to #60

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/28/2009 11:24 AM

1000 watts, what is the energy conversion efficiency to get that into a usable form of energy, or is that 1000 watts of generated electricity? Also how do you store the energy and how long each day can you generate 1000 watts? How does the periods of peak usage compared with peak energy generation?

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#70
In reply to #69

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/28/2009 3:33 PM

It will be generated from an array of photovoltaics which will be stored in a bank of lithium ion batteries. The rate of generation depends entirely on the conditions. As the temperature increases performance decreases, and vice versa up to a point. I will couple it with a homemade wind turbine for support, as well as a converted diesel generator running on vegetable oil (when I find it). However this power is not for personal use, I use very little energy in my daily habits (I have lived on the bus for two years without a power source) though what I intend to use it for are for food cultivation (LED's, timers, pumps, etc) musical events (to serve as a power generator for amplifiers and equipment) and to also sell some back to the grid when I connect to the utility grid. 1000 watts is an estimate, I have not yet sized the demands of the project with the potential of the pv array. If you have more questions, especially if you are looking to set up a pv system yourself check out the book "Photovoltaic's Design and Installation Guide". It is the training manual for PV installers and is clear concise and easy to read. I am in the middle of it right now and am moving on to the section where I will size the system to the needs of the project. I will make updates as it goes.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#62
In reply to #59

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 10:04 PM

Using WVO is technically illegal & not emission friendly...

There are many different types of WVO. Beef Lard used for frying chicken, presents different set of filtering problems [very high cloud point], than nice clean canola used for frying chips. Most resturants throw out the fryer cleaning water with the oil. Hydrogenated oils tend to absorb water. Filtering is going to be a bit more complicated than blowing it through a 1 micron filter.

While a few years ago resturant were paying to have WVO removed, last year the price was high [20-30 cents per pound], probably 5-10 cents/# these days. A vast majority of wvo is spoken for.

These are some very basic issues you should consider...

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#64
In reply to #62

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 10:13 PM

thanks for the heads up but I am not entirely worried on the legal aspects of the project. I feel them to be absurd and will not stop this because some fat rich oil tycoon wants to secure his destructive money scheme. There are networks of VO coops that distribute. This is no guarantee but leaves me at the will of the community and I feel that i will be accomodated.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#65
In reply to #64

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/26/2009 11:14 PM

That's not quite what you said originally, buying dry filtered oil is not nearly the same as doing it all on board

Be careful the collection companies tend to be somewhat territorial.

The biggest legal issue is the road tax or lack there of...paid by WVO users.

I notice no mention of the increase in emissions, I suppose you feel that your bioremediation scheme will deal with that, your powerplant will also have an increase in carbon deposits.

Have fun & keep us informed.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#66
In reply to #65

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/27/2009 8:15 AM

What increase in emissions do you refer to? The switch from diesel to VO will reduce my emissions greatly and even further be countered by the Venturi Scrubber and microecosystems. The carbon deposits will be composted with fungi and used as fertilizer for the onboard greenhouse. Any excess fertilizer will be scattered in gardens, landscapes etc. I understand though that the true "costs" of production/extraction are energy intensive, though hopefully down the road I will be using the proliferated algae to replace the diesel fuel. I have not thoroughly researched the process of converting algae to fuel, so I cannot make any educated claims on its energy use or whether its net energy breaks even. I need to look into that. In the mean time I am still trying to figure out where I can have a Venturi scrubber fabricated, and how I will proportion the backpressure to maintain optimal engine performance.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#67
In reply to #66

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/27/2009 11:46 AM

Particulate & probably NOX, the combustion chambers will be gunked up since the combustion won't be as complete as you would like.

Just because a compression engine will run on WVO, doesn't mean it will run better or even as good as on Dino or Bio [diesel].

Bio diesel is vegetable oil with the glycerol removed & an alcohol molecule stuck on.

What ever fuel you use needs to have a decent cetane [the diesel equivelant of octane] number for good combustion.

If you really want to lower your carbon footprint, drive less & drive the most efficient thing possible. Moving your house where ever you go isn't low impact.....

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#68
In reply to #67

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

07/28/2009 10:59 AM

Actually vegetable oil does not compromise the engine's performance. In fact it improves the lubricity of the pistons, diesel is a corrosive and will eat away at the metal over time. I am not an expert in this field, if you have doubts questions or concerns go to frybrid.com/forums and ask away. There are hundreds of vegetable oil users who are mechanics above anything and will attest to the virtues of a veg fuel system. For the record, I do not plan to use bio-diesel, it is corrosive as well and eats away at the fuel lines, not to mention a labor intensive process. What I hope to do is develop a small efficient processing system for the resources that the bus produces (note the term resource not waste). Specifically I refer to the algae and other biomass. I hope to implement a humanure waste system that will capture the methane released from the fecal matter decompostion and use it for cooking/heating/possible engine fuel. This project is more so a manifestion of principles into application. It is not the answer, but it is close and hopefully those more experienced can work off of what I have. It is a model that will be presented to communities and institutions to show what sort of sustainable technologies there are that will allow communities/institutions autonomy, low impact, and low costs.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#71
In reply to #68

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bio-remediation Project

07/28/2009 6:35 PM

You came here asking for help & answers correct?

You seriously believe that WVO has the same or more energy per gallon than diesel?

& you try to send me to the company selling you the conversion kit as a source here try these guys: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x I never frequented the SVO sections, but the bio guys are top notch.

The Ph of WVO is highly variable, it depends on the source & what was fried in it, how long it was used, what temperature, water content... The Ph of what ever fuel you burn will determine what effect if any on your fuel system. The farther from neutral the more negative effects.

I've never said what you are attempting won't work, I just tryed to point out some of the tricky bits.

I've made 20000 gallons of biodiesel & have dealt with lots of different WVO. I don't make Bio anymore, nor am I involved with any form of alternate/renewable energy. There are good & bad points to all forms of energy.

You are not going to pull over, scoop some pond scum out of a ditch & turn it into a fuel. All algae is not created equal, you need an oil producing strain, that has been acclimated to the conditions you will be providing. You keep saying you don't need heat & light, but the organisms & plants you are planning to use for bio-remediation do!

This project is more so a manifestation [try spell check] of principles into application. It is not the answer, but it is close and hopefully those more experienced can work off of what I have.

Please explain?

& while you're explaining, how are you going to remove the hydrogen sulfide from the methane & where you are going to fecal matter for around a month?

Once again you came looking for help, but believe you have all the answers already.

If you came to CR4, so we would all swoon & tell you how smart you are, thank you for saving the planet, you're on the wrong forum.

If you have questions & actually want answers, welcome, how can we help you?

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#72
In reply to #71

Re: Onboard Schoolbus Bio-remediation Project

07/29/2009 10:07 AM

I do not feel like I have all the answers as I would have already had the project done by now if I did. What I did feel is the need to clarify the goals of the project. You cannot tell me that diesel fuel has a lower impact than vegetable oil. Aside from that I am trying to stay with a low budget while on the road, so recycled oil makes sense. If it works, and records show it does, then I will do it.

And the algae will come from the microecosystem. With all due respect, read the whole forum before you ask these questions. Most of the answers are already revealed. I don't appreciate your attitude (spell check? give me a break, but to play that game: " where you are going to fecal matter for around a month?"

If you are feeling zealous, take it somewhere else.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#73
In reply to #72

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/29/2009 2:53 PM

No, I think you are the zealot. I have been reading the whole thread. I will continue to point you towards information. You've come to this forum which is based on real world science [engineering], so there are going to be hard questions.

I'll not be going anywhere!

The goal as I understand it is a zero impact RV/living quarters.

You can talk all you want about the superiority of burning WVO, I've seen it & dealt with most of the aspects [ & seen the rest]... The bottom line is burning WVO or biodiesel takes resources off the dinner table. Where do you think all that WVO goes if it doesn't get diverted to fuel? Animal feed mostly, some to cleaning products & pharmaceuticals... Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea.

Quantifying the impacts is a big project all by itself...

You claim to be on a low budget, what is the return on investment on a WVO conversion?

Will it be Dual fuel?

& while you're explaining, how are you going to remove the hydrogen sulfide from the methane & where you are going to [store] fecal matter for around a month? see correction above

You need to have a certain amount of retention time for the bacteria to convert some of the fecal matter to fuel [methane]

Beds to grow plants & algae are going to take up room & add more weight.

The more weight you add to your "house" the less efficient it becomes [more of those pesky logistics you claim to want to understand]

If you want to lower your impact, walk where you need to go & grow a garden to actually reduce your net carbon footprint....

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#74
In reply to #73

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/29/2009 10:55 PM

With the bus averaging 8-10 mpg and the overall cost of the conversion being around 2200 dollars, the return will come quickly. The diesel tank itself holds 100 gallons (veg tank is 100 gallons and another 55 gallon onboard filtration system), so average diesel price is around 3 dollars (less so now but I bet it will go up again) so lets say it is 250-300 dollars per fill up. That will get me about 800-1000 miles per fill up. This bus is also serving as a base for my non-profit, which will include presenting the bus' features to communities/institutions, so a good deal of driving will be involved. So after about 8 fill ups, or 8000 miles the net return will be in my budgets favor. It is a dual fuel system, so the diesel tank is a fail safe. I know I am going to get an earful for this ha but I am looking into an HHO intake system to boost the fuel economy a bit (any bit will go a long way, assuming the net energy use/gain is worth it), though the technologies are being refined.

I have not thoroughly researched the methane extraction process (I am focusing on one step at a time), though with added ventilation, heat and stirring, it will accelerate the process. And I am not sure how I am going to remove the hydrogen sulfide, I was unaware of this. Can you explain please?

I understand more weight will reduce efficiency but there is not much weight in the bus itself. All the internal construction is lightweight (mostly bamboo) and the benefits of the system will outweigh the costs. I am only using it for long hauls, everyday commuting is either with bicycle or legs. Other than long travels I am posted up in one spot and the bus will be stationary. I hope to do a lot of guerrilla gardening along the way to keep reducing the carbon output.

The greenhouse will be mostly a hydroponic based system, so the added weight of soil and etc will be avoided, but the tanks and water are obviously going to play a role in the weight issue. As I become more mechanically savvy I will be tweaking the engine to give more performance. Bare in mind this is not my field of study. I am using this bus as a model for a book I am in the process of writing, as well as a low-cost, low-impact self-sufficient mobile home.

Quantifying the impact is exactly what I need help with. I am clueless when it comes to the engineering aspects of the design so I really do appreciate your help despite what my attitude may have led one to believe (I hope you understand that I get a lot of negative feedback from people who are not trying to help but to deter me from continuing so I apologize if your motives are sincere).

And to be frank, I am not exactly pro-pharmaceutical industry, or non-biodegradable cleaning products for that matter. And I am a raw food vegan for a reason, the amount of grains/vegetation it takes to raise livestock could go to solve the world hunger crisis (not to mention the ecosystem damage caused by raising livestock, soil erosion, desertification (look at China and India), and forest removal (Amazon). Remember that a high meat based diet is a luxury that is novel to the last century or so, and only a small percentage of the world "enjoys" such a diet (though scarily enough as more countries become more affluent and wish to emulate Western ways, meat is more so being introduced). And I hardly see used veg oil being all that nutritious for the animals, all it does is fatten them up and increase their weight so that they increase profit, but not usable protein.

I am glad you are not going anywhere, it really helps to be critiqued, so again despite my previous tone, I am grateful for your persistence in keeping me in check.

This is all I can do until I can afford some land of my own to establish my eco-niche. It is a means, not the end.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#75
In reply to #74

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/29/2009 11:46 PM

I know I can be harsh.

Try this thread: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/35169#comment404104 Blink can really explain HHO better than I.

I don't see the estimated cost of the WVO?

I Don't eat deep fried anything, but that doesn't change where the bulk of WVO comes from or goes

The price of WVO follows the price of crude oil, you could possibly save 20-30% [it will all depend on your sources]. Ethanol & Bio pretty well jacked the price structure of food around... I have a horse the price for a bale of hay was $20 last year, we're at $7 today. In December you could hardly give away WVO, the year before $2.75/gal. The price of energy & food are linked & always will be.

You might do a search for mycillium as bioremediators, some of the wood rotters & oyster mushrooms will do some interesting things.

Various types of methane producing digesters are fairly common in sewage treatment, there have been multiple threads...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#76
In reply to #75

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 12:05 AM

As we pointed out earlier, the fallacy is that this setup is going to remediate much of the exhaust at all... the capacity for absorption is but a few seconds at best, most of the exhaust is being shunted out anyhow. please review earlier discussions of calculations. and lack of sychrony between emission pace (pounds per minute ) and uptake (pounds per week).

milo.

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#81
In reply to #76

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 7:01 PM

Noted. However I will not be continuously driving, this won't be a perpetual motion device (wouldn't THAT be cool). I cannot explain anything really until I hear the logistics from Living Machines, but I would imagine that it would be a chance for experimenting with the relative scale of pollution to ecosystems, and how to effectively remediate them and at what rate. It will be an ongoing evolution which if handled correctly, could serve as a rough model to base around bioremediation on a larger scale.

I would imagine that the toxins would be trapped in the estuary system and intensify in relation to driving time. Hopefully the concentration will not be too much to devastate although that would provide a good model for restoration as well.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#77
In reply to #75

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 8:06 AM

I know a lot of people from the Frybrid forum who do not pay for the VO. They make deals with restaurants and coops and pick them up for free. Luckily I live in Olympia, a fairly liberal/eco-conscious town, and it is small enough to provide that close community feel, so acquiring VO is going to be a little easier. I won't be paying for it for the most part.

In terms of mycelium...I have read Paul Stamets' "Mycelium Running" which inspired much of this project. Oysters are very proficient in the degradation of diesel toxins and will be incorporated into the terrestrial ecosystem.

I am really counting on the co2 scrubber to remove most of the emissions, with the remainders working their way through the natural cycles of the "living machine" microecosystems. Look at Livingmachines.com and see what sort of systems they have done. They mostly serve as a wastewater treatment, though with the expansion of the estruary system and incorporation of fungal allies it can be remodified to deliver what I hope it to. I am trying to get in touch with the VP of their firm to get some technical information but it is all proprietary so it has been difficult.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#78
In reply to #77

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 11:30 AM

Everything component you are incorporating (plus all the water, which is a valuable resource) adds a lot of weight. You need to consider the stability of the vehicle on the road, it has to be safe or you will get fined and shut down. You'll need to bulk up the brakes to maintain proper braking distance also.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#79
In reply to #78

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 6:43 PM

Thank you, I am keeping this in mind as the design develops. When the bus was in original form with the seats and etc, it had a GWVR of 32,000 +- pounds, that is with seats, kids and full load. The bus with seats weighed about 18,000 pounds. They were heavy steel seats, I am not sure the weight as I was not the owner who removed them.

What I really need to do when I get back to my project is drive it to a weigh station and find out where I am at. I am going to try to keep the weight far below the maximum load, the idea is to be as light as possible to accomodate the system. So the weigh station will give me a good reference point to follow. And to ensure stability I will keep everything in balance. With the bus' weight known, and the measurement of each addition to the bus, I can distribute the weight evenly. Thank you so much, I would not have come to this realization without you. I just got in touch with a friend who is in the aquarium business, and is connected to scrubber fabricators and he is going to find a firm to construct a custom design for the bus' specifications.

What sort of information and guidelines should I pose? What are the restrictions or any foreseeable requirements? I told him the engines displacement rate, and that I need to have it made to fit the exhaust pipe, and be positioned properly and safely. Luckily there are side panels that are grated and contained, positioned above the exhaust so I can "cage" it in there. And I just realized that some emissions come through the engine-access panel in the interior, so I will place vigorous plants there to help purify things a bit. I am trying to make this project as dynamically designed as possible; to mimic earth's processes and be a microcosm of a cybernetic habitat such as the earth-context.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#80
In reply to #77

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 6:59 PM

http://livingmachines.com/ learn to do proper links, otherwise you lose most of your audience

Not being able to get information is typical, these sorts of institutions like to pretend they are saving the planet. The reality is probably more along the lines of protecting their grants. I've had some dealings with our fungal friends from your neck of the woods, who have the notion that having a patent actually means something, which it doesn't unless you have an appropriate legal team & the money to utilize them. Their basic Mode is use bluster & secrecy to give the appearance of innovation. They had no real interest in developing their process to an industrial level.

As I remember it you would like to advocate for the methods you are developing?

I lost literally tons of oil to people like those on the frybrid forum who helped themselves to oil I had contracted to pick up, depriving both my company & the resturants of revenues form the biodiesel we made! Even when the market had crashed a barrel of oil was worth $10. Cooks & managers had been known to let their friends "have" my oil. Most every owner I ever talked to were happy to turn WVO from an expense to a source of revenue however small. I doubt things are so very different in your area.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#82
In reply to #80

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 7:07 PM

I am hoping that since the bus is a part of the 501(c)3 I started that the oil can be written as a donation, the restaurants being able to state the actual value of oil and write off the donation on their tax return, money saved is money earned. They would probably save more that way then charging a small fee. This is all speculation, I do not know of the legality/practicality of that. Something to look into.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#83
In reply to #82

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 7:41 PM

Please tell us why you should be tax exempt & shift that burden to the rest of us?

& how is it that you suckling at the public teat is in any way a positive for the planet?

How is living & driving an oversized RV in any way innovation or educational?

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#84
In reply to #83

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/30/2009 8:44 PM

Because I will be performing services for public and ecological well-being and presenting them with first hand models for implementing autonomy and decentralization for long lasting self-sufficient communities. "Can't someone else do it?" heard that before? Well someone is taking initiative, why should the costs be out of pocket when the source of the problem is lack of maturity of a nation-wide level if not global? I will not be making money off of this venture, only having the costs be covered. I suppose you feel that the military is not suckling at the public teat, or the publicly funded prostitutes for senators, bailouts, and land development as well? Some of us choose fame, some of us choose fortune, I choose action.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#85
In reply to #84

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/31/2009 1:25 PM

What does you living on your bus have to do with long lasting self sufficent communities?

I suppose you feel that the military is not suckling at the public teat, or the publicly funded prostitutes for senators, bailouts, and land development as well?

I could also point out countless examples of government waste, doesn't make em right, nor does it make your bit of largess any more rightous.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#89
In reply to #85

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

07/31/2009 8:34 PM

call it a visual aid. The technologies interwoven in it brought to a larger scale in proportion to community/institutional consumption could be implemented for their proliferation. This is not the only aspect of the npo, through the means of poesies (art, music, poetry -manifestation of meaning) the themes and principles intrinsic to a sustainable future will be delivered to the ready ears of the audience. The bus is not the essential aspect of the NPO, it is the office/ecological assessment lab/mobile command center; not to mention a mobile generator to serve as a mutual aid. In return for hospitality and etc, the bus' power generation (PVs, wind turbine, and wvo generator) will go to feed back to the grid and relieve some energy costs.

The ultimate goal, and the reason for the NPO called Shamans for the Metaphysical Art of Societal Healing is to contact and acquire devastated ecoystems, to be donated, in exchange for bioremedification of the terrain. Call it Johnny Appleseed but on a larger scale. This land will be preserved as wilderness area that will serve as a host for ecosystemic research, eco-villages (and variations of sustainable communities for those seeking a more meaningful and simplistic life to enjoy the more aesthetic and experiential qualities of life); providing habitats for indigenous cultures to continue their practices, habitats for homeless (as nearly every homeless person I have talked to prefers not to take part in the ways of contemporary society and choose the ascetic life over materialism) that are safe, clean, healthy, and healing, and most importantly, will serve as a practice for ecopsychology: both healing the earth, and healing the mind at the same time. This is tested and proven therapy that helps the individual reconnect to the source and provide meaning and purpose for those lost and confused in a material driven artificial reality based on streamlined economics, sterility, and coercive to docility of the "functions" of its vital components (humans as ants). I can already hear the scoffs, but think of this: what happens to a person on a solo hike? What happens when someone abandons all the distractions that keep them in cyclical anguish? As more and more land is acquired and (without any ownership of course -who needs feudalism again?) local chapters of bioremediators spawn, a mycelial network of fractalized Nature interwoven with communities will reintegrate humanity back with Nature and bring us closer to a harmonious eco-librium.

That is what you can call my "five year plan". The bus is nowhere near the end, but a model for what may be. If the goals of the project are reached (and I will do whatever it takes to get there) the numbers can be scaled to fit the demands of communities/institutions. Not only will this provide an entirely new industry based on (dare I say the word) stewardship, but provide the means for a very gratifying/satisfying raison d'etre for all contributors. It will also be a revolutionary breeding ground for models of sustainability. I hope to catalyze speciation and variation, to mimic nature itself, and pose the conditions conducive to evolutionary civilizations, each unique in its own right -a hub of fractalized cultures working together to offset the heavy impacts of development as it now stands.

I agree with you, in as much as what I have written so far, may seem like I am looking for a free ride, but on the contrary, I have broader, more globally encompassing visions towards reaching equilibrium with natural "systems". In essence I hope to catalyze communities based upon mutuality (symbiosis) within the ecological context (as opposed to suffering the fate behind the hubris of conquering (mastering) Nature --take Rome for example ---centralization collapses under its own weight -----the bigger they are the harder they fall). It is still in development of course, but the vision is clear, and the means to get there arise from dialogues with fine, critical people such as yourselves found on this forum.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#90
In reply to #89

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 3:20 AM

As we say in the UK - "Complete and untter Codswallop", from start to ranting finish.....

If you REALLY believe in all what you are saying, you need some serious help, head wise or education wise or most probably both!!!

I do not believe that you have taken any formal education in the multiple areas where you seem to feel that you can achieve more than all the car and truck companies (plus many others!) around the world have managed with Billions of dollars invested, using people with really high level educations and knowledge.

Occasionally, a well educated private person finds something the big boys missed or ignored. But its seldom.

Driving a bus around with all the bits and pieces you want to take with you, even if the fuel came for nothing would still save you little, if anything at all......

Listen to the people here, they do understand what they are talking about and can help if you manage to listen.

Best of luck.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#91
In reply to #90

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 6:12 AM

What is untter codswallop is that you think that the auto industry even remotely gives a shit about anything aside from immediate profit. The short-sightedness of corporations is what got us all into mess: essentially greed. So yes I do in fact believe that I can achieve more than the companies with billions of dollars invested (and deeply influenced by the petroleum industry) simply because they have no desire to make any actual change, only appear as though they care (green-washing). Laugh all you want, but if people did not believe in this project, it would not cause such a stir as it has done on every forum. The truth is I believe you are afraid of change, a term called misoneism. Many are not committed to this cause because they are reluctant to make the internal changes amongst themselves. Enjoy your comforts, luxuries and life of excess while you still can because there will be a point where they will be looked at as barbaric, savage, and primitive. Keep your politics out of this, I do not need right wing banter trying to delay any sort of progress (history has had far too much of that).

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#92
In reply to #91

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 8:30 AM

If you want to believe that please carry on, thats your problem not mine.

But believe me though if a big car company COULD make even a little part of the breakthrough that the OP is apparently looking for, they would exploit it to the full, make money with it by selling it, as they do not turn down $$$$ just to stay "old fashioned!".

(Maybe some US car companies are as you say, but European and Japanese companies are always looking for ways to improve mileage and efficiency.)

Anyone who does not vote for better technology by buying it, but buys a car because it was cheap or "made in the USA" or whatever, but is fuel inefficient is simply voting the wrong way........which is why even today, with Gas prices still very high, there are still 2 ton Dinosaurs with outmoded V-8 Gas motors slurping up the petrol at 10 MPG or worse, still on the roads in the USA........as daily transport, not as young or old -Timer, just taken out of the garage on dry Sundays when the weather is warm.

Furthermore, except for a relatively small band of Die-hards, Diesel cars have also seemingly still not caught on in the USA, which is where you get an immediate improvement in efficiency of around 10 to 15% (if I remember correctly) just by doing that, all other points being equal.

You also have then a far less flammable fuel in the tank! which helps if and when an accident occurs.

Diesel fueled vehicles generally result in far better fuel mileage with an engine that will outlive most normal gas/petrol engines, that also has (relatively) simpler control mechanisms, so less likely to give problems. No high voltage spark systems for instance susceptible often to moisture in the air.

So basically you get what you pay for. Simply put, in some countries the people did not "vote" with their money well enough to sway the car makers into a building more fuel efficient engines for example. As long as gas was cheap, the USA for example squandered it faster than any other large country in the world.

I remember seeing someone on CR4 telling everyone how his V-6 was "so cheap to run" as it ONLY used gas at the rate of 20 MP(US)G, how simply naive! In the UK we have Diesel cars from VW and other manufacturers that are getting 60MP(I)G or more at the maximum speeds the US citizen is legally required to drive at! (there is a slight difference between US and Imperial Gallons to take into account though, it does not make a huge difference and I am too lazy to work it out.)

In Europe we are forced by taxation on fuel, to buy fuel efficient cars. Have been for many, many years. A lot of these cars have also been made available in the USA for instance, with mediocre sales being the result generally.

So be honest, tell us what sizes and types of engines you have driven over the last 20 years or so, it would be interesting to hear whether you put your money where your mouth is!

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#93
In reply to #92

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 9:04 AM

I am 22 years old. I had one car, a Nissan Pathfinder, not efficient or sensible at all, more so a parental incentive to school close to home. I rarely drove it, as I commuted to school via mass transit. After a year of frustration and hypocrisy I got rid of it and opted for a bicycle. I commuted 22 miles to work each day, felt the best I have ever felt, and have not looked back since. I bought the bus for 700 dollars, it is a v8 diesel engine, and as you have read so far, aims to be as harmless as possible. I agree with you in your cynicism towards me, I too feel that people need to put their money where their mouths are. I am not doubting European auto makers intentions, however there is a lack of communication between field specializations and even further a reluctance to think outside of the box. Perhaps it did not pass the cost-benefit analysis, or perhaps they too are coerced by petro industries, perhaps there is not yet a market but they already have a solution: I think it is Iceland who is steering towards hydrogen fuels, correct me if I am wrong. The point is, if all these people making ignorant decisions see something right in front of them that was created by an unemployed student, they might think twice about the feasibility of their way of being. Not to mention I hope it jerks their egos a bit and forces them to feel the need to compete with my project.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#94
In reply to #93

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 9:14 AM

Fair enough comment.

No bets though?

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#95
In reply to #94

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 9:25 AM

bets on what? The projects success? I'm already putting everything I have (mind body spirit) into it so I think it is clear what I am betting on. No matter what, it will happen. The technologies exist, but in fragmentation, and once I put all the right pieces together, in proportion and in compliance with engineering models of safety efficiency and performance, then the goal will be realized.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#96
In reply to #95

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 1:01 PM

Thats what I want you to bet on, give or take what you want, 12 months, 24 months, 36 months.

If you know so much and it is so near to fruition, then pick a year in the future and either 12, 24 or 36 months give or take and we will wait and see.

All bets are off if you see more than say 6 years, plus or minus 36 months......because thats almost like fusion, 10 years give or take 50!!! I might not even be around in 9 years to collect on my bet.

More than 9 years means nobody has a clue and they are starting from zero right now because its such a risky business!

Am I being fair? I certainly believe so, whats your take on my request? No commitment? Then you will never ever see it happen in your lifetime either, it was just a nice daydream.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 61
#98
In reply to #96

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 6:26 PM

I'd give it a year or so...but with constant refinement throughout. I am in communication with fabricators for the co2 scrubber so once it is developed, it'll be attached. Also the microecosystems are being designed, and if I can get through to the VP of living machines then it will happen faster than if not. All I need to know is the logistics and I will do everything in my power to get it all together. But numbers are a fools game, so it all depends on the conditions at hand. If it were up to me, and the information was easily attainable, I would have had it done by now. Though I keep finding more and more technicalities that need to be tended to before application. I would rather it take longer in order to foresee any potential problems then jump right into it and pose something potentially dangerous. I am trying not to fall victim to hubris. Certain things are beyond control so I cannot make any claims. In a good scenario where things are flowing and developing, the project will be complete within a years time. It is all very conditional...will it be perfect within a year? Doubtful, but will it be effective, absolutely. I have a lot of time which I fill with this project and it only. It is my love child haha.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#100
In reply to #98

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/01/2009 9:32 PM

My well meaning Hyperborean,

You said:

"But numbers are a fools game, so it all depends on the conditions at hand. If it were up to me, and the information was easily attainable, I would have had it done by now. Though I keep finding more and more technicalities that need to be tended to before application."

It is the failure to do the calculations that keeps birthing spontaneous technicalities for you. "Numbers ARE NOT a fools game, but numbers will eject fools from the game."-milo

Also, not to dwell on the "technicalities" but the Function of the "venturi co2 scrubber" is a little unclear to me. I understand the ability to drop out particulates,(is that what you mean by scrubbing CO2? but some comments indicate that somehow this will ameliorate or divert CO2 from the microecosystems.)

As the math shows that the microecosystems at best are going to be able to handle a few seconds worth of exhaust (see post #2 above) it is perhaps a bit disingenuous to claim that your project is actually acheiving what it is that you will be claiming to demonstrate.

Of course if your audience fails to think critically and do the math, well, they would be the fools in the game as well...

We applaud your intentions, but remain concerned about the safety, practicality, and intellectual honesty of the claims that you might be tempted to make.

DO THE MATH.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#101
In reply to #100

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/02/2009 9:49 AM

I'll bet that he hasn't done the math, at least not fully and correctly.....his heart is in the right place though.....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#102
In reply to #100

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/02/2009 12:33 PM

I did not mean any offense by that statement. I meant that I had no way of giving a specific time frame, I should rephrase it to deadlines are one thing, reality is another.

To clarify the co2 scrubber: It will remove both particulate matter and co2 molecules. It uses sodium hydroxide (polar charge) and is attracted to the carbon molecules. The sodium hydroxide (lye) is sprayed in a fine even mist, clinging to the particulates and carbon, and containing them in a seperation chamber. While this will draw away co2, that is a good thing. As you have made clear, the numbers would not match up if I had the engine's exhaust pumping directly into the ME. The scrubber will greatly reduce the output (removing up to 99% of carbon emissions) thus allowing for an easier metabolic process for the system.

I am going to install it as an an estruary system, trapping the undesirables into the marshy soil, which can do their thing at their pace. Before that stage it will pass through burlap sacks full of inoculated substrates containing oyster mushrooms and various toxin-eaters. They are used sometimes along river banks to counter agricultural waste run-off.

I am not savvy to engineering formulas, which is why I came here with these questions. The numbers I look for are metabolic rates for the biotic components of the ecosystems. I have not had any luck coming across them yet, but this information lays in the hands of the folks at Living Machines. I am trying to get them involved in this project as all they need are a few specifications of the bus' output, pace, and space, and they can run models to scale down the systems they design. I am waiting on a response from the VP to get some information, but only got to the sales department. Whether I have to pay for it, or maybe they would do a probono case considering it is like advertisement for them everytime I present the bus. We'll see, I would rather have someone with the expertise to give me a run down on the microecosystem demands, and also need help ensuring proper backpressure, temperature, and the safety concerns you have raised.

Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#103
In reply to #102

Re: Onboard School bus Bio-remediation Project

08/02/2009 3:48 PM

To clarify the co2 scrubber: It will remove both particulate matter and co2 molecules. It uses sodium hydroxide (polar charge) and is attracted to the carbon molecules. The sodium hydroxide (lye) is sprayed in a fine even mist, clinging to the particulates and carbon, and containing them in a seperation [separation] chamber. While this will draw away co2, that is a good thing. As you have made clear, the numbers would not match up if I had the engine's exhaust pumping directly into the ME. The scrubber will greatly reduce the output (removing up to 99% of carbon emissions) thus allowing for an easier metabolic process for the system.

What is the origin of this system?

What is the output? [waste products]

NaOH vapor sounds dangerous...

KOH would probably yield a byproduct that could be used as a fertilizer.

Funny both these compounds were deemed to dangerous by you, when used to make biodiesel

Wow, you are really going to have to work on the PR thing, telling a bunch of technical people that

"numbers are a fools game"

is not how you get information or help...

If you are going to promote this project effectively you will need to be able to discuss the various aspects coherently depending on the audience. Some of the social aspects would not be well received by most groups. Green speak is pointless. Efficiency, reduces energy use & emissions, but doesn't needlessly piss people off.

Reply
Reply to Forum Thread Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (3); Anonymous Poster (25); Doogleass (1); DVader1000 (6); ffej (1); Garthh (24); GLB (1); Hyperborean (61); kudukdweller9 (1); Milo (17); one4gaia (9); PhysicsProf (1); PWSlack (1); RCE (12); Tad (9); TVP45 (1); WWkayaker (3); xstek99 (3)

Previous in Forum: Who Engineered the New Green Roof on the Sears Tower?   Next in Forum: Solar Panel Interference

Advertisement