Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

Very helpful teach how to fish answer Tad.

milo

Thank you for that really helpful information!! I wonder if the scrubber could loop the solution and have the particulates and etc filtered out so it is a continuous closed loop cycle? It seems insensible to keep putting more naoh into the system when a posed problem would be removing the excess. Could the system include a NaOH seperator from the flue? Also could it be dried and made into pellets? The hard part is having this all done in an onboard system. Ha I need to write a letter to Bill Gates. Like you said, the exhaust should produce enough water, would it be enough to perform what I just stated. The numbers you presented are counter-intuitive to the efficiency I hope to meet. Water is just as much a precious resource as air, so I would hate to wash blood with blood. Unfortunately the only models I have for the scrubbers are on an industrial scale so I am not sure what the exact mechanisms of it are.

If you wouldn't mind taking the time I would love to understand the chemistry behind those calculations. Maybe I won't be a number's fool afterwards...

The dry scrubber sounds like a great idea, though will it be as efficient? Is there an efficient way to produce the pellets? Is that possible? It is caustic so will it still hold the same attraction to Co2? Thank you so much for your encouragement, I really appreciate it. If I ever said I did the project alone I would be a liar, thank you for you contributions everyone.

Loop?

How ? the idea was to capture the CO2, the way to regenerate NaOH is to heat the NaCO3 very hot (i.e. 800 c or so) or electrolysis of NaCl. If you regenerate the NaOH you release the CO2 again. You have to keep putting more NaOH into the systemn as it captures the CO2.

NaOH comes in a dry form as pellets in various sizes. So you would just buy the pellets. Any slightly wetted surface on the pellets will absorb CO2. The pellets will actually absorb water from the humidity in air and react with the CO2 in the air (As will NaOH in solution), thus you have a system that needs to be separated from the atmosphere, or it will continue to react the NaOH even without the engine running and you wont get the efficiency you want over time.

by loop I meant could I design it so that the used NaOH can be isolated and plumbed back into the scrub cycle? Instead of constantly having to replace the NaOH, could what was used be reused? Earlier posts mentioned that I need to figure out to dispose of the residual NaOH, possibly selling it or giving away for bio-d. Instead of all that, could I just filter it and reuse it over and over? This seems much more cost-effective and efficient.

No. Once the sodium hydroxide reacts, it is 'used up,' for the purpose of combining with the CO2. Chemial reaction is transformation, notmere collection like a vacuum cleaner where you can empty out the debris. The material changes chemically.

milo

Sorry, but I made a mistake on my previous post. It will take about 2 lbs of NaOH to remove 1 lb of CO2, so it is even worse than I described before.

The reaction is:

2NaOH + CO2 = Na2CO3 + H2O

This is a chemical reaction. The NaOH reacts with CO2 to form sodium carbonate. There is nothing to recycle, the NaOH is gone. Once the NaOH is used up, it must be replaced, and you have to get rid of the Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate).

Tad

Its been almost 3 years to the week, but I see the thread died after my last comment. How is the re-invented bus going?

It is still coming along. I took a lot of the feedback from this thread to heart and did a great deal more research on the matter. The system has evolved quite a bit. In summary, though not yet tested, working on grant opportunities and personal savings, the system exists in several phases:

Mechanical retrofication:

1. Vegetable/Algae oil conversion

2. Propane/biogas supplementation via anaerobic digestion

3. Hydrogen gas supplementation via algae hydrogen production (reactors tapped and fed to air intake system)

4. Stirling exhaust energy recovery (providing energy for the system as well as a functioning heat exchanger)

5. Translated slug flow reactor (vertical to near-vertical stacks of alkaline solution (possibly calcium-carbonate from the coccolithiophore sp.) assisted by ultrasonication and cavitation via static mixers, thus increasing gas-liquid transfer for a carbonate and carbonic acid slurry to be fed to algae reactors and cooling the exhaust stream)

Light Harvesting and Delivery System

-The system will involve solar fiber optic cables woven into a membrane such as Omnisil 1000 or similar, and illuminating the exterior

-If solar output is not up to PAR, LED supplementation will be transmitted via fiber optic cables.

-Light will be delivery to both the interior and exterior of the membrane reactor.

-Lights will be pulsed in intermittent flashing of high intensity light, thereby altering the Circadian rhythm, and allowing for rapid assimilation of nutrients and growth patterns with sufficient rest. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but 15/64 of a second is the light period (energy intake), with a subsequent rest period for assimilation and grow.

Membrane reactor system

-To address the constraints with photo bioreactors that are fully aqueous tanks, tubes, or raceway ponds, those being spacial, volume (in my particular application), scalability and maintenance, I have redesigned the system to consist of hollow-fiber membranes with micro-capillary action that will delivery the nutrient source as needed, while maintaining 100% humidity. This dramatically reduces the system footprint and allows me to stack them in any manner.

-As stated earlier, the light harvesting system will be woven into the membrane and illuminate the outer layer of growth on the membrane as well and provided at intermittent flashing.

-A new addition to the system is the integration of a Helmholtz coil or something of similar effect. This will alter the EMF of the reactor, which has been demonstrated to increase biomass production as well and valuable cellular products such as b-carotene and oils up to 100%. Most of the research is Russian however it demonstrates that the EMF alters biophysical processes by increasing cell membrane permeability and reduces fluid viscosity for more rapid nutrient delivery.

-Nutrient and exhaust slurry delivery will be further improved via static mixers, which break down particles to more readily metabolized sizes.

-Harvesting will be done by spray jets in the reactor chamber that remove the outer layer of biomass consisting of mature cells. They will then run through static mixers to undergo cavitation, rupturing the cell walls and separating the desired intracellular and extracellular lipids. From there the oil, water, biomass, slurry can be run through a centrifuge for purification.

-The remaining water will be sterilized and reused for the system, biomass will be anaerobically digested, recovering residual nutrients within the biomass for future algae growth. The digester will also provide the biogas for heating and engine fuel supplementation. Additionally, human compost, food scraps, harvested biomass from other system components will all be utilized for nutrient recycling and delivery for the system, creating a semi-closed loop system.

-The oil, after dewatering through the centrifuge, is ready to be delivered to the fuel system.

Residual exhaust slurry will circulate through a wetland phase system consisting of duckweed, cat tails, reed grasses, horsetail, microorganisms, etc. Then run through a mycelial network for further remediation, and aero/hydroponic plant uptake.

I am working to save up for a 28-30 total foot (legal limit to be attached to a 35 ft bus--65 total feet) stacker trailer, 8.5'x11.5'x30' to provide for more space for system components. I understand more weight=less efficiency however with the amendments I can afford a little room.

I still need to run numbers, however a pilot test is the only way I can accurately model the system behavior and derive relevant data, so this is where I am at. I purchased a 5.5kw diesel generator which I will use as an engine, the only missing variable is the flux in RPMs of a mobile phase engine.

The main holdup is that I graduated from my school and am looking for a good research university that will allow me to continue this project for my masters/phD. I have talked to Oregon State University, which is in my relative area and it may seem possible, however I need certainty that I can work on this particular project rather than faculty research. I am also looking into the D.O.E. Small Business Grant since I have a Non-profit organization. I appreciate your continued interest in this project, it came as a total surprise to me when I saw the email about the new comment.

I understand now why everyone was so pushy to get the numbers right, you all laid out the biggest constraints, where I was able to address them and work around them, so I appreciate it all, it has evolved dramatically thanks to your feedback. Still a long way to go though. Applying and testing is the name of the game now. Where are those "angels" I keep hearing about on the news that fund entrepreneurs?

I plan on being in Oregon in early sept. Any chance to see the project. As an experiential educator (educated while traveling on a bus ) I would love to see the conceptualized outcome in person.

That would be great, though it is by no means completed. Not a single component is installed, aside from the veg oil conversion and interior renovations. I wish I had more to show for the time but alas, Rolling Stones must have made a deal to have time on their side.e

Since you are adding a trailer, you may want to research aerodynamics. You can practically eliminate the penalty of the trailer if you get the aerodynamics right. There is a thread on ecomodder.com that has some illustrations from Hucho's book that would be useful. There is also a thread on Phil Knox Aerodynamics Seminar.

Very well put Garth, you demonstrate a good understanding of the whole problem.....Thanks for your post.

Could this meet ypour venturi needs. It was from a Berkely, CA biodiesel site. A Quote from I have a used Alpha Laval Mab 103 Centrifuge for sale. I purchased the unit for biodiesel cleaning after process but never put into service. Used these units in the Navy and in commercial power generation and they have a great reputation. Ships from Ft. Woth,Texas. Unit costs about $15,000 new without feed pump. This unit has 2 pumps, a valve arrangementand is mounted to a heavy table. The unit was used for oil testing. Price $5500 plus shipping. Call Paul @817.517.1818

It seems a little heavy duty for what I need. If I had a home base to clean up my VO that would be a different story. It is also beyond my budget; but thank you, I appreciate the heads up. It would be great if it were lighter weight and more energy efficient. How do you think it would serve as a venturi scrubber? To remove particulates? If I get the actual scrubber that I planned on then it should do it all in one shot (co2 and particulate removal)...I'll pass that on to the frybrid forum...I am sure someone is going to be drooling over that. THANKS!

diesel exhaust emissions http://www.placer.ca.gov/Departments/Air/%7E/media/apc/documents/UP/ALECSFinalReport2007%20pdf.ashx possibly has information related on a version from a Michigan based company Tri-mer.com and their work since publicly funded in part fyi , may be available thru Freedom of Information Act FIA by someone in Sacremento a CA reseident or if funding was Federal thru that portal. This info might be scalable thru interpretation into a smaller more applicable model for Onboard Schoolbus Bioremediation Project

Here's a link to the report & an explanation of the operation. While it might be a way to reduce emmissions, not very resource efficient. Heating the exaust gases up to 600c to reduce NOX blutec style, seems especialy wasteful

Link

2.3 Emissions Treatment Subsystem

The ETS consists of six major components: a Preconditioning Chamber (PCC) that removes SOxand an amount of hydrocarbons (THC), a Cloud Chamber Scrubber (CCS) that removes PM, aThermal Management System to increase operating efficiency, a Selective Catalytic Reduction2-8(SCR) Reactor for removal of NOx, a Control System and the Continuous Emissions MeasuringSystem (CEMS).The ETS and the relative location of its components are shown in Figure 13 and are describedfurther below. The Control system and CEMS descriptions follow these ETS major componentdescriptions.The first component the exhaust gas encounters as it enters the system is the PreconditioningChamber (PCC) which serves several functions. First, it cools the gas adiabatically through acounterflow water spray and in the process increases the water vapor content to near saturation.This feature is required by the following stage, which cannot accept hot gas. Secondly, itremoves most of the soluble hydrocarbons and other water soluble compounds. Third, the wateris rendered caustic by means of a metered injection of sodium hydroxide to remove 95 to99 percent of the SO2, depending on the inlet concentration. The fourth function of the PCC is tocause the nanometer size PM particles to agglomerate into larger particulate globules, whichfacilitates their removal in the next stageThe path of the exhaust emissions flow through the ETS, along with the relative positions of themajor components is shown in Figure 14.The gas exits the PCC at a temperature of about 140°F. This gas is directed to the first of threeCloud Chamber Scrubbers (CCS). These vessels are empty, except that they are filled with a fogof minute water droplets generated by an array of spray nozzles collinear with the exhaust gasstream. Each droplet is charged to a high voltage immediately after leaving its nozzle. Thischarge causes particulate matter in the gas stream to be attracted to and adhere to the waterdroplets, with each of the billions of water droplets collecting many particles. The droplets fallto the bottom of the CCS to a collection reservoir. Droplets entrained in the gas stream areremoved by a mist eliminator.The particles thus collected in the water reservoir are flushed through a solids removal systemwhere they are collected for subsequent removal from the premises and disposal using approvedregulatory means. The removal system consists of a solids separation device for inline solidsremoval, water extraction, and compaction.The Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) Reactor requires a temperature of approximately 600°Fto operate. The exhaust gas exiting the CCS is cooled to about 140°F and stripped of SO2, PM,soluble hydrocarbons, and condensed (particulate) hydrocarbons and sulfates. This clean butcool gas must then be reheated. This is accomplished by a Thermal Management System(Burner & Heat-Exchanger) that is connected to the system in a wraparound arrangement. In thisscheme, the hot exhaust from the SCR Reactor is used to heat the cold gas entering the SCRReactor. Approximately 80 percent of the available heat is recovered from the hot gas leavingthe SCR Reactor by this heat exchanger. The additional heat increment required to bring the gasstream up to 600°F is provided by a natural gas or propane-fired burner.The exhaust emissions flow through the Thermal Management System with the relative positionsof the components shown below in Figure 15.2-9Preconditioning Chamber (PCC)Cloud ChamberScrubbers (CCS)Selective Catalytic Reduction(SCR) ReactorThermalManagementSystemSilencerID FanETS Major ComponentsFigure 13. ETS with Relative Locations of Its ComponentsFigure 14. Emissions Treatment Subsystem Captured Exhaust Emissions Path2-10Figure 15. ETS Thermal Management SystemThe reheated gas at 600°F is passed through the SCR Reactor for NOx removal. In the SCRReactor, ammonia combines chemically with NO in the presence of the catalyst, converting theNO and ammonia (NH3) into water vapor and nitrogen gas. Urea is the reagent this system usesas the source of ammonia. The urea is injected into the system immediately after the burner.Special atomizer nozzles and flow modification devices ensure uniform distribution, and a longmixing duct assures complete conversion of urea to ammonia.An Induced Draft (ID) fan is located downstream of the SCR Reactor and Thermal ManagementSystem, and a silencer is located downstream of the ID fan. This fan draws the exhaust gas fromthe locomotive through the ducting into the ETS. The flow and pressures are controlled bydampers and the fan's variable speed drive motor.In addition to the silencer, which acts as a muffler, the downstream ducting and fan housing areacoustically insulated to ensure that the systems operating noise level is reduced to an acceptablelevel.

I just got early word that I was not accepted for the fellowship award. It was funded by Nike, so that says something. Maybe they were afraid it might actually work and their slave labor would come to an end. I am so disillusioned right now. What am I doing this project for if the very beings I hope to save/enhance do not embrace it? There is no ease in an entropic environment.

Funding is always the most difficult part...

The presentation is key.

These situations always require you convince a bunch of good ol boys [there are many different types], they are gonna look good to their superiors or get paid directly [there are many forms of payment]

I don't like to play games though. Could I post my proposal I sent to them and maybe have it critiqued?

Project Leader: Haddy Yosef
Project Mentor: Mukti Khanna

A Chreode to Harmony
By Haddy Yosef

This project is to create a model to catalyze a paradigmatic shift from a parasitic nature to one that is symbiotic within the ecological context.

The factors in its design are:

-Self-sufficiency

-Low-impact living

-Raw food for a healthy ecologically aware diet

-Permaculture

-Bioremediation

-Humanure (compost toilet, dehydrated for stove fuel, tapped methane for heat/energy)

-Rain collection and purification -Solar Power (1000 watt system for mobile eco-festivals)

-HHO (Hydrogen-Hydrogen-Oxygen) Generator

-Poesis -art, music, poetry, story-telling

-Transforming a once-parasitic/destructive machine into a symbiotic fusion of nature and technology.

-Ultimately the reintegration of thriving nature beyond boundaries into our lives, in recognition of its healing properties for body, mind and spirit.

The materialization of these goals have been initiated with the acquisition of a 35 foot diesel school bus which is undergoing the conversion process to operate on purified vegetable oil, including an on-board filtration/collection system.

To achieve the goals of a negative carbon footprint (trapping carbon from the air):

-An HHO generator will be installed to cause for a cleaner and more efficient combustion process.

-There is a Venturi CO2 "scrubber" being fabricated which will be attached to the exhaust pipe of the bus, tapping its emissions before it can escape into the atmosphere(90-99% efficient).

-The residual exhaust will be routed into a bioremediation system consisting of micro-ecosystems of oceanic and terrestrial models.

-The model oceans will consist of phytoplankton and blue-green algae, converting the exhaust into sugars which will in return be used as nutrient-rich food and fuel (for the diesel engine).

-The terrestrial models will consist of oyster mushrooms (capable of degrading toxins such as diesel fuel and oil), medicinal fungi, also mimicking mangrove systems. This will also function as a water purification system providing clean drinking water. This will be monitored and analyzed through water/soil toxicology assessments.

-An ambient air CO2 "scrubber" will be fixed to the roof to collect particulate matter emitted from vehicles in front.

To achieve the goals of self- sufficiency:

-The bus will be part greenhouse utilizing full spectrum LED lights and hydroponic systems to grow nutritious organic raw foods.

The bus' permafarm will consist of:

-The blue-green algae, phytonutrients, salt, medicinal and edible fungi harvested from the micro-ecosystems.

-A medicinal herb garden.

-Fruits, greens, and seeds. -The purified nutrient-rich rainwater for drinking and hygiene.

-The compost from the humanure system will be used as organic fertilizer coupled with fungal allies.

-The bus itself serves as a living quarter and the base of operations for the 501 (c)(3) organization Shamans for the Metaphysical Art of Societal Healing PS.

To achieve the goal of elevated public awareness of ecological connection:

-The bus is designed as a mobile power generator using photovoltaic technology.

-This will power sound and visual equipment for eco-festivals centered around the principles of this project. -Spoken word, music, art and other expressions of meaning will be delivered to engage the audience into a think tank of ecological, social,and policy issues.

Phase Two: Acquire devastated ecosystems and implement bioremediation practices to restore to a state of proliferation.

-This will be achieved through the collective power of the 501(c)(3)Shamans for the Metaphysical Art of Societal Healing PS, those in possession and responsible for the devastated ecosystems will be urged to donate the land for the organization's services of bioremediation to restore the ecosystem in exchange for avoiding EPA and CERCLA fines.

-This land will be preserved as wilderness area and also a grounds for observation and education on ecological systems. -As local chapters spawn more and more devastated land will be restored and preserved as wilderness to balance the habitat loss from human development.

-This will also host eco-villages centered around the ethics necessary for a sustainable, ecologically integrated and incubating society. -The projects will also function as a practice for psychological healing.

-In the act of restoring the state of the Earth, evidence supports that one undergoes an internal healing; reconnecting to the source and feeling purpose and meaning.

The overall goal of the second phase is to restore balance to the Gaian organism. After time and healing, the ecosystems will perform great remediation processes, catalyzing a cleaner, healthier and happier existence for all engaged. This will, in the future, serve as a model for sustainable cultures in full health and potentiate the unobstructed unfolding of the self's ontogeny. Essentially, this aims to provide a context where we may all develop into mature harmonious mutual beings identifying with all within the larger context of life.

My critique would be this:

1) You didn't even understand Nike's grant guidelines:

"At this time, Nike only supports product donation requests. Nike does not accept unsolicited cash proposals." Nikeguidelines

If you have to think about why they want to donate product instead of cash, you have a different problem.

2) Aside from having deep pockets, Nothing about your proposal really targeted or aligned with Nike's Core business.

"Our goal is to carry on his legacy of innovative thinking, whether to develop products that help athletes of every level of ability reach their potential, or to create business opportunities that set Nike apart from the competition and provide value for our shareholders."

How does Humanure/bioremediation/living in a bus/ help NIKE achieve their stated goals of helping athletes or create business opportunities?

Did you read their site?

3) Nothing about your proposal touches their product.

Had you dreamed up a way to recycle Nike's products into a greenhouse gas replacement fuel for the bus, you'd already be on their board of directors.

You REALLY REALLY REALLY have to align your work with the Grant issuing institutions mission, goals, and products.

4) Nothig about your proposal touches their core constituency- athletes. Its not enough to have a mere cultural careabout. That is incidental. Athletes aren't primarily worried about algae/fungal bioremediation of exhaust gases. They are worried about getting a better performance from their body. Your proposal was great idea aimed at wrong target.

5) Finally, you are Yin to Nike's Yang:

Your title is Chreode to HARMONY.

Nike is about COMPETITION.

Thats a pretty HUGE mismatch.

milo " Good luck on your next one"

the focus the nation guidelines were much different than what the Nike site stated...my project lined up perfectly...I should have paid more attention to where the money was coming from....I would have boycotted Nike when the award came...I would have had a global platform to announce my project and I feel that Nike was threatened by what it would have meant for them...the thing is...where can I find any funding that is not out of competition...I won't compromise the integrity of my project with adjusting to corporate greed...so I guess I am fucked huh?

Only if you depend on corporate generosity to fund it.

Were I you, I'd start the project, modestly, write an article about it and sell to a back to the land magazine like mother earth news. Their $300 stipend or so for the article and photos will then be leveraged by you to build, say, the PV part of the project, resulting in another article to a solar PV magazine, and so on and so on. Just like starting a campfire... only with your project and the money from companies THAT ARE ALIGNED With what you are doing.

Basically, KNOW your market.

(My first article ever sold was a solar hot water heater conversion to mother earth news in 1975 or 1976...)

Eventually, you might end up with a writing gig at one of those publications, as someone who has "been there and done that."

Thats how you build a career.

milo

My motto If at 1st you don't succeed try-n- try again, to make it to second base if half the way home , and its all freewill from there. Have you tried in educational grants. Certainly the education component of your project carries Kudos, and good Karma. It is in the scale of the operation that concerns them. Decentralized Energy/knowledge has the potential to spread, and energy is money in this day and age. If every post gave you $10.00 would that help. I think i'd be in for 50 or 60. Where can I send it?

I couldn't accept. What you guys have given me far exceeds any monetary value. You are all invaluable.

I am trying to figure out alternatives to the traditional resource intensive scrubber systems. There has to be some way. Is there anything in urine that would aid in removing emissions? http://www.caer.uky.edu/factsheets/Power_Liu_NH3Scrubber1-4-07.pdf - sorry, link no longer available

I want to utilize my waste so there has to be a way to turn all the inefficiencies into use.

The NaOH and water intake would be far too impacting to go along with the projects ethics. What is a ready available system that can store tap and store co2 for the biotic consumption? It does not have to be immediate but serve enough so that nothing escapes but is digested within a week or so, this is to accommodate the imbalance between the engine output and biotic metabolic rate. Any thoughts?

That is plans for an ammonia scrubber, I found it after I opened this post. Can I get some feedback? Also I read about a steam heat generator that can tap the heat waste of engine performance. What are the costs for such things? How can I go about this co2 scrubber? It has to happen, but how? I feel close, I wish I understood the chemistry and calculations for this stuff.

Good job on proper links

Keep digging to see where UKY went with this project. Being a stationary application they have very few constraints on weight or budget Some searches of Blutec will show you mobile apps

The 2nd link is full of broken links, but is basically a way to lower the output of your prime mover [diesel engine] & convert the reduction into steam. The method outlined on the utube video would require major modifications: new cam, pressure vessels, additional valves actuators.... I would assume it to be a work in progress, not an off the shelf solution. Search for 6 stroke technology, which appears to be a better solution, assuming you have a need for steam. I imagine it to would be far beyond your budget...

Your manifesto is entertaining.

Think about where your talents lie & concentrate on utilizing those talents in the most efficient way.

Achieving one of the goals you outlined would be a lifetimes work.

To achieve all of them will require you to assemble a team. The team will have a wide range of specialists from many fields. The ability to assemble such a team is a rare talent indeed! The enormity of being able to keep such a team intact long enough to complete such a task is equally monumental.

Is there a group already working towards similar goals?

Could your talents be better utilized by them, than by you starting from ground zero?

Ya, I am trying to find collaboration but it seems that in this day and age people are more talk than action and seek the more monetarily rewarding path. A lot of interest but no one willing to add their essence to the mix. Though my friend from high school is getting some of his buddies to look into the co2 scrubber -he runs an aquarium business and has contacts with fabricators, and ingenious friends. I think I will follow Milo's advice and write an article in some permaculture/ecological journals, and try to recruit people for this. I REALLY appreciate this help, a lot of bad shit hit me all at once (eviction, dognapping, lost-fellowship money, parental divorce, and too much to continue) so this forum, as sad as this sounds, is my only source of hope.

I am on my way to Seattle today to pick up the rest of the vegetable oil conversion kit! Hopefully this aspect will be done within a week, with time for test runs. That will be a gorilla off of my back. After that I can focus more on the other aspects. The scrubber is really the next step, without it I cannot calculate the microecosystem's design.

Any feedback on the ammonia scrubber?

Milo has layed out a reasonable short term goal for you.

The scrubber is what it is, keep digging to find out the results of project. Consider starting with a trailer mounted unit, that will handle 5-10% of the output of your compression engine...

Talk is cheap, but in the end ya gotta pay the bills...Money is not the only currency being exchanged.

Trust is at the center of collaboration. Real trust & credibility take years to build. Commonality of purpose may never happen.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:E74L1-F4i28J:www.realworldio.com/+efficient+co2+scrubber&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

This is for a steam generator/scrubber. I don't think I am in a position to critique these things with my knowledge of the stuff so could someone give me feedback on the feasibility of this?

I just got back from travels, it is such a relief to be back to my bus. I got some great information for a wetland treatment system...its a pdf so I cannot attach it but here is a copy: Small Flows Quarterly, Fall 2004, Volume 5, Number 4 26NSFC Constructed wetlands to treatwastewater from single-family residencesis a rapidly emerging bioengineeredtechnology that provideslow-cost, natural treatment for sitesnot suited for conventional onsitesystems. With some technical assistancefrom state and local agencies,a homeowner can install the systemhimself and save some money."It's harder to change sparkplugs on your car than it is to put ina constructed wetland," MichaelOgden, president, Natural SystemsInternational, Santa Fe, New Mexico,said.What are constructedwetlands?Constructed wetlands are an alternativewastewater treatmentmethod that mimics natural processesto cleanse water. Microorganismsthat naturally live in water, on rocks,in soil, and on the stems and rootsof wetland plants feed on organicmaterials and nutrients, removingpollutants from the wastewater. Pollutantsare reduced by a factor of16, or more. (Biological Oxygen Demandand suspended solids are reducedby 94 percent and nitratesare almost completely eliminated.)There are two types of constructedwetlands: surface flow, wherewastewater flows on top of the existingsoil, and subsurface flow,where wastewater flows through aporous medium, for instance, gravelor tire chips.Constructed WetlandComponentsA constructed wetland systemconsists of a septic tank; a pump ifthe wastewater is unable to travel bygravity through the system; wetlandcell(s), which are beds lined with animpermeable liner and filled withgraded medium and aquatic plants;and a drainfield, polishing lagoon, orwildlife habitat pond for returning thewastewater back to the environment."Wetlands are a great additionbecause they have no moving parts,and since they rely on natural systems(wetlands), they are basicallyself-maintaining and self-regulating.Even if you need to leave your homefor extended periods of time, theplants will survive," Ogden said.Is your area permitted forconstructed wetlands?Beginning construction withoutfirst getting a permit and knowingexactly what the permit requires isasking for trouble. "The problem isnot that the homeowner is not capableof putting in a constructed wetland,the problem is the regulatoryprocess," Ogden said."If county/state regulations donot permit for constructed wetlands,then the local sanitarian doesn'tknow what to do. He may think constructedwetlands are a wonderfulidea, but he doesn't have a 'recipe'for writing a permit. Check with yourlocal regulators before installing aconstructed wetland.In some cases, permits are for experimentalsystems, and the permitmight have special requirements. Forexample, two homeowners inLouisiana recently put in constructedwetlands under an experimental permit."One of the requirements wasthat the homeowner would pay acertified testing lab to periodicallytest the influent and effluent of thewetlands for one year to prove thatthe wetlands were doing the job,"Robert Crawford, engineer IV, Departmentof Environmental Quality,Baton Rouge, Louisiana, said."Although the homeowners wereable to easily complete construction,they were unable to pay for testing.There weren't any grants or loansavailable to help them pay for it, sothey had to take the systems outand replace them with approvedtreatment systems."According to Crawford, mosthomeowners in Louisiana don't evenknow that constructed wetlands arean available technology. "We onlyhave data for municipal wetlands,and they haven't done well inLouisiana," Crawford said. "We werea testing ground for the early municipalconstructed wetlands. Therejust wasn't enough research done inthe beginning to get the data weneeded and to get the design criteriaright."Of the sixty subsurface municipalwetlands Louisiana put in, only fouror five operate at their permit levels."Many have been taken out in thelast 10 years because they can'tmeet their permits," Crawford said."Even though we haven't hadmuch luck with municipal constructedwetlands, our chief engineer atthe Department of Health and Hospitals,the agency that permits systems,supports residential constructed wetlandsto treat wastewater, but hedoesn't have the money to pay forthe testing either. Unless we getsome homeowners who are willing topay all costs (installation and testing),we won't be able to get the data weneed to approve the system."NESC STAFF WRITERCaigan McKenzieSmall Flows Quarterly, Fall 2004, Volume 5, Number 427"Although your particular countymay not permit constructed wetlands,there are numerous sources ofinformation—the U.S. EnvironmentalProtection Agency Onsite TreatmentManual (see EPA, 2002) and the NationalEnvironmental Services Center,for instance," Ogden said."These two resources will help introducethe technology to the localsanitarian. He may still balk, butoften a local registered professionalengineer specializing in onsitewastewater treatment systems canhelp. An experienced engineer willoften be able to remove any concernsthat the regulatory agencymay have. Fortunately, most stateshave the necessary regulations andguidelines in place."Skills NeededDesign and planning are done byprofessionals. Construction, however,can be done by the homeowner."The only skill you need is the abilityto move large amounts of dirt," BillGrant, administrator, LaGrangeCounty Health Department, La-Grange, Indiana said. "It's not rocketscience to put one of these in."I helped a resident who didn'thave any special engineering or constructionskills. Together we choosea design, and I gave him all thetechnical assistance he needed."We've had residential constructedwetlands since 1992 and only twohad problems—bad construction."General Materials NeededIn addition to the design plansand a backhoe, the homeowner willneed safety gloves and boots, a septictank, a dosing pump if effluentdoesn't flow to the wetland cell bygravity, an impermeable liner for thewetland cell, plastic pipe (usuallyPVC), gravel or some other type ofapproved porous material for thewetland cell, wetland plants, andplant fertilizer if effluent is not immediatelyavailable after planting.Wetland plants are speciallyadapted to withstand the stressfulconditions characteristic of wetlands,for instance, periodic saturation withwater, fluctuating water levels, andlittle available oxygen. Bulrushes,cattails, reeds, rushes, and sedgesare common types of vegetationused in constructed wetlands.It's best to use native wetlandvegetation since they are adapted tothe local climate and pests. Wetlandvegetation can be found at local nurseriesin all regions of the country.Construction CostsCosts to build a constructed wetlandvary with site conditions, thedesign, and local requirements.Grant built a constructed wetlandin his backyard in 2002. "The totalmaterials for my wetland were$1,498.24 retail," Grant said. "I alreadyhad a septic tank, but had Ineeded one, my costs would haveincreased approximately $900. Sincewater from a constructed wetlandsystem is fairly clean, I only needed a450-square foot absorption field,adding another $1,000 to my finalcosts. The total cost for my constructedwetland was $2,498.24.Contractors will increase the costs ofmaterials to cover overhead andmake a profit."My soils are real sandy, so I didn'tneed as much of an absorptionarea. If you get into the heavier clay,you will need a larger absorptionarea and that will increase yourcosts."The most expensive residentialconstructed wetland we have everput in was $5,600 and that was becauseit was a difficult site with clayand high water. It needed a perimeterdrain and a large absorptionfield. For this particular system, theinstaller said material costs were$2,800. The contractor pointed outthat had he needed to install a conventionalseptic system, he wouldhave had to charge the homeowner$7,500."In LaGrange County, constructedwetland plans cost $50. Thecounty purchased standard plansfrom Michael Ogden. "The wetlandwas sized based upon the number ofbedrooms in the home and on howbig the disposal field needed to be,"Ogden said."So, for instance, a homeownerwill know exactly the size for histank and disposal field based on thenumber of bedrooms in his homeand the percolation rate of his soil.The homeowner had everything heneeded when he bought the plans;the information is all there. Oncethe standard set of drawings, specifications,and guidelines are in place,there is no reason for an engineer toget involved. The rest of it is a handholdingprocess that can be readilydone by the county sanitarians."Preconstruction StepsAll utilities must be located andflagged, and temporary fencesshould be placed around the absorptionfield to prohibit traffic andavoid compaction.Where necessary, vegetationshould be removed. Any soil that isremoved should be kept for later use.Fill soil should be free of all debris.Common reedPhragmites australisLake sedge, RipgutCarex lacustrisRiver bulrushScirpus flaviatilisBroad-leaved cattailTyphya latifoliaSalt rush, Baltic rushJuncus balticusSome Common Wetland Plants CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGESmall Flows Quarterly, Fall 2004, Volume 5, Number 4 28The wetland cell area should begraded and leveled. Fill should bemechanically compacted to requiredelevations to ensure proper basepreparation. Maximum compactionoccurs when the soil is moist (Tayloret al., 1998).ConstructionConstruction should begin onlyafter all permits are in place. Stepsfor constructing a wetland vary geographicallybecause of local regulations,but the steps below provide ageneral outline of the various stagesinvolved in building the wetland(Big 8 RC&D Website, www.big8rcd.org, 2004).1. Excavate with a backhoe for theseptic tank (1,000 to 1,500 gallonsdepending on the numberof bedrooms).2. Level the floor of the excavation.3. Carefully lower the septic tankand, if needed, the pump tank.(This can generally be accomplishedwith the crane on theto five years to prevent the overflowof solids. Also, the water level shouldbe periodically checked to ensurethe correct level.For a subsurface system, thehomeowner can install a small observationtube in each cell to monitorthe water level, which normallyshould be two to four inches below agravel surface to improve treatmentand control mosquitoes. Finally, deadplants (not dormant vegetation),weeds, or saplings that have takenroot should be periodically removed.It is important to wear protectivewaterproof gloves when performingmaintenance tasks to minimize exposureto wastewater, and to avoidany contact with the wastewater ifyou have open wounds or sores.Getting Your County InvolvedWhen Ogden first started teachingworkshops about constructed wetlands,he sometimes taught homeowners."An interested homeownerwould get a group of neighbors together,and we would teach a workbackof the truck that deliversconcrete tanks or with a backhoeif HDPE plastic or fiberglass tanksare being used.)4. Backfill with soil.5. Excavate the wetland cell.6. Cover the bottom of the cellwith a plastic liner (30 mil PVCand 40 mil HDPE).7. Dig a ditch for wastewater piping.8. Lay the inlet pipe to the cell.9. Pour and evenly spread gravel ortire chips into the cell.10. Dig a ditch for the drainage line,and insert and connect the pipes.11. Dig trenches for the drainfield.12. Connect the pipes.13. Fill with water and check for leaks.14. Add wetland plants.MaintenanceConstructed wetlands are typicallylow-maintenance systems. As witha conventional system, the septictank should be pumped every threeWater Garden is forlandscaping. It is not partof the treatment system.WetlandSmall Flows Quarterly, Fall 2004, Volume 5, Number 429In 2002, the Water EnvironmentResearch Foundation (WERF) fundeda project to research and establishthe feasibility, design criteria,and operations and managementrequirements for small-scale constructedwetland wastewater treatmentsystems."We set up a Web site and encouragedpeople to register theirwetlands," said Scott Wallace, P.E., aprincipal for the research project andvice president, North American WetlandEngineering P.A., Forest Lake,Minnesota. "We gathered informationfrom 19 countries on 1,789small-scale wetlands. The final reportwill be published fall, 2004."The original subsurface flow wetlandtechnology was developed inGermany in the early 1960s, accordingto Wallace. At that time, manysmall, rural villages there didn't haveconventional septic systems. Instead,homeowners just straight piped theirwastewater into the ditch. The firstfull-scale wetland systems in Germanywent online in 1974.Wetland technology wasbrought into the U.S in the early1970s, but it was used for largesystems. In the early 1990s, whenconstructed wetland technologywas adopted by Denmark and theUnited Kingdom, members of theTennessee Valley Authority (TVA)went to Europe to investigate thetechnology. In 1993, the TennesseeValley Authority published a bookon design of single-home, subsurface-flow wetland systems, titledConstructed Wetlands WastewaterTreatment Systems for Small UsersIncluding Individual Residences. Thisbook was the first major documentpublished in the U.S. that focusedon single-home wetland systems."The TVA publication acceleratedthe use of wetlands in the U.S.,"Wallace said. "Our published reportwill be the first to address small-scalewetlands since TVA's publication."Constructed wetlands are popularwith the Amish because theydon't use electricity and modernequipment, which is forbidden intheir religion. I have seen this patternin southern Iowa and easternOhio. Those areas have soils thatare not suitable for a standard septictank drainfield. Prescriptive codewould require either installing amound system, which requires apump, or installing an aerobic system,which requires a blower. So ifyou are looking for a system thatdoesn't have any mechanical treatmentcomponents, that is going tobe a constructed wetland, since itstreatment systems runs 100 percentby gravity flow. This is perfectfor the Amish because it allowsthem to put in a modern systemthat the county will approve, yetthe technology does not go againsttheir religious beliefs."Constructed wetlands for single-family homes have been awastewater treatment option foronly the past 10 years, accordingto Wallace. "Before then, mostcodes were prescriptive, and constructedwetlands didn't fit the criteriafor prescriptive code. Now,the onsite industry places moreemphasis on performance-basedsystems, so constructed wetlandtechnology has grown."For more information about theconstructed wetlands researchproject, contact Scott Wallace atswallace@nawe-pa.com or JenniferSimmons, project manager,WERF, at (703) 684-2470.To view wetland informationfrom the WERF research project,go to www.wetlandsurvey.org.The final report can be purchasedthrough WERF at www.werf.org(inside the U.S.), and through IWAat www.iwapublishingl.com (outsidethe U.S).For Further ReadingEast Texas Plant Materials Center et al.1998. Constructed wetlands for onsiteseptic treatment: a guide to selectingaquatic plants for low-maintenancemicro-wetlands. (Availablefrom National Environmental ServicesCenter (NESC), Item #WWBLOM37.[800] 624-8301.)Steiner, G.R., and J.T. Watson. 1993.General design, construction, and operationguidelines: Constructed wetlandswastewater treatment systems for smallusers including individual residences.2nd ed. Tennessee Valley Authority,Water Management Resources Group.(Available from NESC, Item #WWBLDM65.[800] 624-8301.)See the list beginning on page 55for more related resources.shop on a weekend," Ogden said. Constructed Wetlands Survey Project"We also tried to sell homeowners aset of plans as a self-help project,but this proved to be very time consumingbecause the homeownerneeded help in getting the permit.It required me to spend considerabletime on the telephone answeringquestions from local countyhealth officials."Ogden no longer teaches constructedwetland workshops forhomeowners alone. "It makesmore sense to do it on a countywidebasis, since the county hasthe overall responsibility because itissues the permits," Ogden said.This way, Ogden has available tohim all the information he needsabout what a particular county allowsfor onsite systems. The bestaudience, according to Ogden, is acombination of sanitarians, contractors,and homeowners.For More InformationFor more information on constructedwetlands to treat residentialwastewater, contact your local andstate health agencies; the NationalEnvironmental Services Center at(800) 624-8301 for technical informationand free and low-cost informationmaterials; Purdue University,West Lafayette, Indiana, (765) 494-4773, for a copy of ConstructedWetland Design Manual for IndividualResidences; Michael Ogden,Natural Systems International, (505)988-7453; Bob Crawford, LouisianaDepartment of Environmental Quality,(225) 219-3465; and Bill Grant,LaGrange County, Indiana, HealthDepartment, (260) 499-6341.ReferencesBig 8 Conservation and Development(RC &D) Web Site. Accessed 2004.Programs section: Constructed wetlandsfor wastewater treatment.www.big8rcd.org.Taylor, Catherine, Don Jones, Joe Yahner,Michael Ogden, and Alan Dunn.1998. Individual residence wastewaterwetland construction in Indiana. Ajoint publication of Purdue Universityand the Indiana State Department ofHealth as part of the onsite wastewaterdisposal project. Purdue University,West Lafayette, Indiana.U.S. Environmental Protection Agency(EPA). 2002. Onsite wastewater treatmentsystems manual. Office of Researchand Development. Office ofWater. (Available from NESC on CDROM.NESC Item #WWBKDM99.

[800] 624-8301.)

I am going to contact Michael Ogden and see if I can get some specifics on feeding the exhaust into the waste water and having the system treat it over time. If the food is there, the microorganisms will flourish, excessive algae will be a good thing if I can make a system to turn the biomass into fuel. If not, then its compost. I am not having much luck with the scrubber, so I am looking for alternatives.

this may have been a cathartic moment (AHA!) http://www.uop.com/objects/84CO2RemvbyMembrn.pdf

It is a membrane cellulose acetate that removes co2...i am going to look further into it, but this may be an answer to the water demands and NaOH.

See figure #6 or run the math for the size of the membrane needed. The PDF is from 99, you would have to think if there were anything to it, Honeywell is never one to leave potential profit on the table. Nanotubes could be engineered for higher efficiencies I'm sure some deep pocketed company is on that tick. Exotic materials are going to require deep pockets.

I would have to say your best bet as a backyard inventor would be concocting some sort of algae growth chamber. I believe what ever has the fastest growth rate would convert the greatest amount of CO2. Size & weight are always going to be the major consideration for a mobile applications

How about a 5 inch roof mounted algae pool? It could basically cover the whole surface of the roof, and with a thin layer of water, evenly distributed should keep the weight to passable numbers. This is going back to my original idea for the bus now ha.

How efficient do you think it will be? I need to find the numbers for the metabolic rate of algae. More specifically the type that Milo referred to me, that thrive in hot springs. I can also plumb it to connect to an interior wetland system. I want the bus to have integrated flora, a jungle inside the bus essentially, so I can use that for bio-remediation and aesthetics, not to mention purify the air inside the bus. How to get it to offset the emissions are going to be another story.

But again, I can take the excessive algae growth and process it to make bio-fuel. Since wvo is cheap if not potentially free (not to mention carbon-neutral net-wise) and the algae are 50 percent oil, I might be able to reach my goal of low-costs and low-impact. Hmm...I suppose I can do a crude system at first and then run it through some lab equipment and measure the rates and perfomance and refine it from there. It can't be perfect in the first draft.

The cellulose acetate sounds like it is derived from plants, though I haven't looked it up, I judged from the name. So I wonder if it actually is that expensive. Are there any renewable methods for co2 removal-with the same efficiency as NaOH? Nothing I couldn't just clean and maintain and reuse over and over? If the integrated ecosystems were enough to remove and metabolize the emissions completely I would be a very happy man.

Ya, it is decided, I am not going to use the NaOH for a scrubber. It is going to be solely ecological design. I am thinking this is a good opportunity for a new field of study for me. It goes along with bioremediation.

I contacted Natural Systems International and gave them a proposal and asked for information and a quote. Hopefully I will get a response tomorrow, but I am going to give them a call.

There is a lot of information on their website that I am going to look into. I am going to get a copy of some ecological engineering books. The problem is that I am building the interior (bamboo for weight) tomorrow and would have liked to have planned ahead to accommodate the spacial demands of the micro-ecosystems ahead of time.

The systems I had in mind will be decentralized and interconnected, mimicking ecology. The can allow for some flexibility, as I can attach tanks in fractal patterns to metabolize the engine displacement (will this make it difficult for pressure?) I think that this is much more feasible and energy-efficient then the earlier idea. Due to the detention rates in wetland systems the effluent will be held in the clay and pebbles as it is consumed by microorganisms. If I implement enough of these wetland systems, and combine them with phytochemical production, and mycelial filtration, it should resolve the issues. The question still remains though, how much is enough?

Fractal patterns to metabolize? This would be easier to discuss if you were not attempting to mis-use elaborate language to try to explain your process, it inaccurately communicates your intent as the use is inappropriate even if we were discussing a biological entity or mathematical structures.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I am designing the bus so that while I am presenting it, everything will connect in terms of the true meaning of the project. The fractal patterns are to represent the natural flow of order, not in the euclidean domain. Life works off of each other, finds the path of least resistance to find its niche and each performs a certain role unique to that speci(al)(fied)es. So the components of the bus must been intertwined and interconnected, otherwise the whole would not work. If it were more centralized systems, then if there is failure in any link, the whole would collapse. If it is fractalized - or a rough or fragmented geometric shape that can be split into parts, each of which is (at least approximately) a reduced-size copy of the whole,"^[1] a property called self-similarity - then if one or two fragments fail, there will only be a minor hindrance in productivity, rather than system failure. To relate that to community-building, if every house was its own power generator (solar, wind, hydro, etc -relative to the geographical resources) and it were all connected to each house, if one houses power goes out, the collective rest of the houses could power its needs until the problem were solved. After initial investments, energy costs would be much lower, and not vanguarded by corporate empires. It puts more control back into the hands of the people as they will not be placed in the role-relation of owner and consumer. Not all of those circumstances are wrong, though it prevents the potential for exploitation of those in need of those services.

Ha sorry a bit of a tangent. So the bus itself will be the Earth- an organismic whole composed of organic functions which has the tendency for self-regulation. I wish I understood the engineering aspects of this project, if I did I could arrange everything in the most efficient way. I am still too inexperienced to completely recreate what I have in mind, which is perhaps the most frustrating thing, I see what it really should be, but am limitted by understanding.

I am having a delay right now, the diesel system is all crapped out. The tank is full of rust and has been the cause of every problem that I have had with the bus so far. It was one of those fool me one time shame on you, fool me two times shame on me situations. So I am going to resolve this by replacing the tank and fuel lines. I have been repeating the phrase blessing in disguise since my last 310 dollar tow bill, and it came true after realizing that I am preventing engine problems by replacing the fuel lines with biodiesel compatible ones. More money, but after that I will be able to install the veg system (it is sitting with me all ready for installation).

I have not heard back from Natural Systems Intl yet, I assume that once they read bus they reject it ha. So I am going to call them and get some more information. If I can get in touch with their designers then I can get some numbers. That is about where I am at now. Who knows maybe they'll give me a research grant for small-scale applications.

I found some numbers for carbon uptake of chlorella and it was not very efficient for the output of the engine. However, I am looking further into utilizing Coccolithrophorids which produce calcium carbonate and isolate the carbon in a solid form. This could be a much more desirable candidate --also I could sell the coral to jewelers and etc.

I'm getting close...

Calcium out means equal amount of calcium in. Need to do a mass balance for calcium and estimate how much would be needed and what frequency it would be added. It is pretty common in groundwater, but is highly variable.

As this will be a microcosm of the ocean there will be ample sources for calcium stored in the sea weed and cell structure of the plankton. I am literally aiming to create a simple model of the ocean, including more complex organisms such as consumers (myself), so it will contain microorganims, plankton, algae, kelp, etc. It will have the archetypes of ocean remediators, all the organisms which form the ecology that forms the cleansing properties of the ocean.

The ocean has a huge source of calcium. You may want to research sediment deposition in the oceans. The ocean is has exposed limestone rocks and huge inflows of fresh waters containing dissolved minerals from terrestrial rocks. If you compete too strongly for the calcium with the plants the plants will lose and die. You will need to keep adding calcium. and for a plant system you will need many other nutrients that are easily depositted into the oceans, which you would have to supply. The ocean is a large nutrient bath, with the nutrient coming from mineral deposits being washed into the ocean. You would have an enclosed system that would then need a source of nutrients inflowing, beside carbon dioxide.

These people may be of some assistance. http://www.biomimicryinstitute.org/ They also have an "asknature" search engine that may help.

Thanks for the tip, I just emailed then with my project outline and asked if they had any information or resources. I appreciate it. I read Benyus' book and it played into the development of this project so it is funny to have looped back this way.

I replied to this comment earlier and I am ashamed to say I did not take the idea seriously at first and replied rather lightly. But somehow the idea kept rattling in my head, and I have since run across some useful information for the author at http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/227 If these developments come to pass, which appears quite likely, the petrochemical industry may be replaced rather quickly in automotive applications, which will be using designer microbes to scavenge CO2 from the air into H2 fuel. 2015 would be an optimistic target today at 90% certainty, and almost 100% certainty by 2020. I do still hold my earlier opinion that school buses, schools, and that type of activity will by then be viewed as rather quaint and old fashioned by then.

I agree as well, this project is not intended to be scaled for other vehicles. It is more so an educational model, as well as a way for me to cover for my own output, as well as provide the service of remediating the ambient air. However, if I could somehow get this microbe technology involved then this might be perfect for the project. I am a little uneasy about genetic engineering however in this case it should not be exploited/corrupted.

Hey to give everyone an update, I have come to a solution to a lot of issues. I am going to divert the exhaust into a pressurized storage tank and release it at a rate/level in proportion to the ecosystem-uptake (I found those numbers!). I will have to have a few tanks, I have not calculated the numbers but I would like to be able to drive for a solid eight hours before filling the tanks. Then I would park for the necessary period for the plants to convert the exhaust. And so on. This is the easiest and perhaps most transferrable solution. It can even be used in any vehicle. The tanks can be removed and used for home/industrial gardens. What's the feedback?

How do you plan to pressurize the tanks?

You will need an external pump, probably a belt driven supercharger or the like

You have stated earlier that you will produce approximately 200 lbs/hr of CO2. After 8 hours, you will have 1600 lbs. on board. If you compress this to 1500 psi, you will need a 6000 liter tank. The largest standard compressed gas cylinder available is 9.25 X 60 " , weighs 125 lbs, and holds 50 liters. You will need 120 of them. So the gas + cylinders will weigh 16,600 pounds

The exhaust will also generate about 280 gallons of water in 8 hours, so add another 1920 lbs. Unless you separate out the water, it is going into your compressed gas cylinders, so you are going to need 22 more cylinders.

Total weight: 21,270 lbs, not counting the compressor and cooling system (when you compress the gas, it gets hot and must be cooled). You will also need a generator to run the compressor. And gas for the compressor. And plumbing to the cylinders etc.

Other than that, great idea.

I can try to route the water to be run through the wetland filtration system and purify it. I need to find a way to manage the tank situation though. Could a custom one be made?

Liquefying won't help, and would be very energy intensive. The critical temperature for CO2 is 88F, above this temperature it is not a liquid, so you have to design the tank with the assumption it will be all gas.

The tank would be 6'X6'x6' (actually larger, as it will be a fairly thick walled cylinder). This will take up a large portion of your bus.

The weight alone is probably more than the bus can carry.

The compressor will be extremely heavy as well

Compression and cooling are very energy intensive. You will need to get this power from somewhere, like an engine. So now you are wasting more energy, and generating more CO2 that you have to capture.

I'm tired of doing the calculations, but my feeling is that running the compressor will take about the same power as the bus engine provides, so your scheme would roughly double the amount of pollution your bus puts out.

And for what? So that you can just slowly release it again? What good does that do?

I really appreciate your help. I am going to calculate the surface area of the bus and see if I can incorporate my fractal concept into the tanks. What I mean by this is that covering the surface of the bus would be a low profile layer of tanks, fragmented but connected at points. The gas flow would collect and be distributed throughout the loop of tanks. The only issue would be that it would require much more metal and add more weight. Again, this is all worst case scenario as the vegetable oil and algae fuel will emit far less exhaust, as well as being coupled with the hydrogen generator. Perhaps I can use aluminum rather than steel tanks?

So your basically going to armor plate your bus?

What ever fuel you use is going to make roughly the same amount of co² as this is one the products of perfect combustion.

Since you are not removing the glycerol from the vegetable oil you will actually be producing more particulate not less...

I already provided a link to a discussion about hydrogen generators, which you apparently ignored. Hydrogen generators are consumers of energy not producers...

Fuel from algae is still vegetable oil & quite expensive, if you could obtain it.

the algae will be a resource of the bus. It will amply grow its own; I'll have to process it but that is later on. And I did check out the post, however I know people directly who have seen tremendous benefits so I am going to try it; if it doesn't work atleast I will have a valid answer.

Please have them post the data.

most likely they are involved in wishful thinking...

I noticed that you have no comment about vegetable oil

There is no magic involved, just science.

You might consider a course in critical thinking, much more productive.

Yes veg oil is carbon neutral. I want to sequester it though nonetheless and operate as a negative feedback response -clean the air rather than pollute. So I am basing my numbers on the worst case scenario and that is diesel. I would rather be safe than sorry.

You can twist the numbers to fall any way you want, but that doesn't make the project any more viable...

where you see constraints, I see opportunities to adapt...I can understand your hesitation in the realization of this project if you have vested interest in petroleum, but as a human being on planet Earth, with the (I am assuming) drive for health and well-being at heart, wouldn't you want this to happen? Wouldn't you like to see a feasible application towards tapping emissions from the source, resulting in cleaner air? Do you like pollution, smog, disease and all the maladies that come with petroleum use? Look up the term misoneism...and take a long meditation on it. By the way....do you have kids?

That's all fine & dandy.

It would be great the this technology made sense...

Notice I didn't say it wasn't possible

Just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea or an avenue for a positive change

I love to meditate on the absurd

This thread has been highly entertaining.

Making a bus even heavier won't reduce your carbon footprint.

Make it lighter

Install a more efficient power plant

Reduce the miles you travel

There is no magic wand

Just good old fashioned incremental improvements to what has come before.

Sometimes reality doesn't align with our dreams

Continue putting it out there & you may get somewhere.

so then can you help me find a practical way to do this? I need to tap the exhaust somehow, and slowly feed the life growing on the bus with it in accordance to their uptake rates. What would be a lightweight way to do this. The bioremediation idea depends on the plants and algae. That is not leaving. So I have to work around it. Fortunately the bus is much lighter since the seats are removed. The furniture is built out of bamboo and very lightweight. I suspect the plants will add another 1000 pounds or so, but that is a complete speculation. So I can be flexible and refine my engine to perform better also. My goal is to boost my fuel economy up to atleast 15 mpg which is very possible. That matched with the neutrality of veg oil and algae fuel will reduce my impact and with the exhaust tapped, and consumed by the plant life, it will not output anything but clean air. So how can I get this done? What is a lightweight method to tap the exhaust?

Why not a more modest goal of remediating the exhaust of a generator or even propane fridge. This would still serve as an educational tool... Proof of concept is important.

Start smaller and build on your successes.

I would also consider converting the bus to natural gas. A homemade digester could be made that uses garbage as an input. Methane is actually much worse than co² for the environment. You couldn't have an on board digester, still too big & heavy...

The health issues are not strictly speaking solely related to the use of petroleum, but rather the burning of organic fuels, which also includes biodeisel, vegetable oils, and ethanol. Technically smog is not solely related to petroleum use, but rather to the burning of organic fuels of any kind. All the smog and related air quality issues are still going to be issues even if you switch to bio deisel and some scrubber, because NOx is not so easy to scrub in the system you are describing. You won't be any more efficient at removing those compounds. Unburnt compounds from current diesel are a matter of removing old deisel vehicles from the road, you wont achive any benefit to health or the quality of air in the lower atmosphere. What you may achieve is the collection of a contaminated mess of biomass, carbonates, and some organic residues. The quest becomes how much, how do you handle the volume you would need and how do you dispose of the now contaminated waste (the biomass with organic residues may well classify as hazardous waste). So you need a handling facility to process the biomass back into fuel, which cost energy, plus the energy to deliver the biomass back to the facility. You need a whole new infrastructure.

What if the gas was brought to low enough temperatures so as to change it into a liquid state? The issue there would be the amount of energy required to cool it. I wonder how I can manipulate the situation to maximize space and minimize energy use (question of the century)?

DING DING DING DING!!!!!!! I found the loop hole I have been needing. Has anyone heard of MOF-177? It is a hyper-porous metal-organic framework that has the surface area of 5,000 sq ft per gram! So one tank filled with this material will hold the capacity of 9 tanks. If I can get this stuff then my issues are resolved! Any feedback?

"Metal−organic frameworks (MOFs) show high CO2 storage capacity at room temperature. Gravimetric CO2 isotherms for MOF-2, MOF-505, Cu3(BTC)2, MOF-74, IRMOFs-11, -3, -6, and -1, and MOF-177 are reported up to 42 bar. Type I isotherms are found in all cases except for MOFs based on Zn4O(O2C)6 clusters, which reveal a sigmoidal isotherm (having a step). The various pressures of the isotherm steps correlate with increasing pore size, which indicates potential for gas separations. The amine functionality of the IRMOF-3 pore shows evidence of relatively increased affinity for CO2. Capacities qualitatively scale with surface area and range from 3.2 mmol/g for MOF-2 to 33.5 mmol/g (320 cm3(STP)/cm3, 147 wt %) for MOF-177, the highest CO2 capacity of any porous material reported."

MOF-177 is most likely to be very expensive. You are going to need 1200 lbs.

It will preferentially absorb water, and decompose very quickly (hours).

See this link

You still need to highly pressurize the CO2, and deal with the energy requirements to compress it. Now you will need even more energy to release it from the MOF-177.

In the end, you will require huge amounts of energy for this scheme, and will about double the pollution from your bus.

Simply releasing the exhaust is much more eco-friendly than your scheme, and results in exactly the same net amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Why do you think compressing the exhaust and slowly releasing it is any better than simply releasing it as it is made?

because what it is being released into is a series of hydroponic systems...the exhaust (waste) will be used for something productive (fertilizing vegetation). This way it will not escape into the atmosphere but be transformed by the vegetation into something harmless.

Fine, but the net amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere is the same whether you store it and release it slowly into your plants, or just let it escape as it would normally, and let your plants absorb it back.

Just think about it for a minute. The plants absorb the same amount of CO2 whether directly from your exhaust, or from the atmosphere. So, there is nothing at all to gain environmentally from your scheme of storage. In fact, you will considerably cause more pollution by your scheme, because you will waste so much energy to do it.

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However, I would be extracting it and using it to fertilize the bus' life.

I'm not sure where you got the quote above, but everything in it is incorrect.

Hydride storage is exothermic, which means that heat is given off as the gas is stored. So the exhaust waste heat does not push the reaction in the storage direction. Quite the opposite, heat will inhibit absorption.

The exhaust would have to be cooled for storage. Waste of energy.

The hydride will become hot during absorption. This heat is lost, so more waste of energy.

To release the CO2, you will have to apply at least as much heat as you wasted in absorption. More waste of energy.

So, you will have wasted a large amount of energy, creating even more pollution, with no net gain to the environment. So, if you are trying to make as much pollution as you can with your bus, your scheme is good.

As for the rest of the quote:

The twisty tailpipe would need 1200 lbs of "little crystals", at least. That's one big tailpipe!

Hydrides do not release the gas by "a tiny injection of catalyst", they must be heated.

Releasing 400,000 liters of CO2 in 10 minutes would be a real problem if it could be done. But since it can't be done, no worries.

This thread has evolved into a bunch of really poor logic and wrong information, so this will be my last post.

Thanks TAD,

I just keep hoping that by continuing to point out reality, our fine young friend will come to a greater understanding of the big picture.

He really want to jump to the last step [goal] without all the intermediate steps...

Okay, so I will not reject the potential of this technology, but if I can go in a more organic approach I would rather. I went into a frenzy last night redesigning the system to maximize surface area (for co2 filtration through coccolithiophore) and came up with something that is not free of kinks but it could work once I scale things correctly. I did the math for my co2 output using WVO and it would be around 560 pounds in eight hours. So Ill assume there will be a worst case scenario of one hour of diesel use (until I dial in the algae fuel system) which will add another 200 pounds. So say that is 760 pounds of c02 in eight hours of driving. Shitty, but not as bad as 1600. This is much more manageable and can be consumed through a massive integration of NFT hydroponic setups. With artificial lighting (LEDS powered through integrated pv arrays) co2 uptake in plants increased up to 40%. Most plants work best in a co2/water ratio of 1500 ppm. If I can figure out how much I need to dilute it to not basify the solution, then it can work. I have looked up greenhouses that use engine exhaust for co2 fertilization and found a schematic for a commercial operation: They will be the ones to talk to about resolving back pressure issues. I sent an email hopefully I'll get something good.

Here's an interesting thread

The conversation turns to the removal of CO² from methane using wood chips & iron oxide. straight forward low tech, wonder if this would work for your project?

Using methane will reduce your environmental impact much more than redirecting CO² ... but that's a different question/solution

totally...I am hoping that I can have enough space to design a methane tapping humanure toilet. It will be composted and the methane will be utilized for cooking/heating. It may not be super efficient to have all this stuff on the bus...but remember it is a hands on model for sustainable technologies that are low cost and able to be produced on a household by household level...reducing ecological footprints and energy bills.

Hey everyone, I have an update that could use some critique...

The veg system is finally going to be finished this weekend, all the parts are here and the last piece is holding it all up.

Next I am meeting with a friend of a friend who has success with his HHO conversions and am going to install a system aboard the bus.

Now to the juice of it: The exhaust

-I have read articles about the potential of turbine generators harnessing waste heat from the exhaust transfer, they can produce a considerable amount of kWs in relation to the engine. So the exhaust generator is the next step after HHO.

-Afterwards, I will route the exhaust to run through a small SCR system (catalytic converter and urea wash *(urea can be extracted from evaporated urine -dirty business but it will save a cost and utilize a waste product...the urea concentration for SCR purposes is 35% and urine is 5%.) This will scrub the NOx and SOx, and filter out particulates. I am going to write grants for this set up but Miratech distributes products designed for buses and trucks.

-From that point the exhaust (routed through a pipeline) will reach into a radiator-shaped series of algae/plankton filtration towers. It will be a small scale ocean, though narrow and pressurized/aerated/heated for maximum efficiency. This will significantly reduce carbon in the form of carbonic acid. The proliferating biomass of algae will be removed and processed through a turnkey heated centrifuge to extract the oils providing SVO, and dry biomass for fertilizer as well as butanol fuel.

-At the end of the ocean cycle of the algae/plankton, the effluent will reach an ebb and flow system that will recreate a wetland system, clay, pebbles, cat tail reeds, phalaris grass, etc, providing further purification and representing the tidal systems of ocean/shore.

-Then it will go through a soil cycle process: mycelium, different soil layers, etc; all to recreate the soil cycle and microbes that cleanse the rain when in contact.

-From then the water will be routed into 10x 30 gallon tanks that will feed a controlled NFT hydroponic system and transfer the remaining carbonic acid for root uptake.

This way, the co2 and water produced from the exhaust will combine into carbonic acid and be stored in a solution within the series of hydroponic tanks. I think this solves my previous issues. All I need to ensure is power (PV cells, turbine generator, large battery bank), lights, and nutrients and it should be pretty simple.

Oh and the algae can be fed with my toilet waste, promoting fat production and uptake by algae, resulting in higher yielding oil extractions and no need for waste disposal.

What do you think?

To get things proportional, I got in touch with Rosa Flora Limited, a commercial greenhouse which uses 2 Cat 3516 engines for electric/co2 generation. These two engines provide enough co2 for the coverage of 400,000 sq feet and they keep their co2 ppm at 600 to 1000 ppm.

My engine has a displacement rate of 636 cubic inches and we already figured out it releases 200 lbs co2 in an hour of driving (on diesel petroleum). The sq feet of the bus is 320.

Here are the specs for the 3516 engine:

Engine
Manufacturer .................................Caterpillar
Engine ...............................................3516 DI
Rating ...............................2000kW, 2500kVA
Cylinders .....................................................16
Displacement ......................................69 liters
Bore .......................................6.7in. (170 mm)
Stroke ........................................7.5 (190 mm)
RPM ................................................1800 rpm
Fuel .......................................................Diesel
Aspiration .............Turbocharged/Aftercooled
Governor ...........................Hydra-Mechanical

So their displacement of two engines is 8421.27 cubic inches.

My bus is 636.6 cubic inches.

So their displacement 13.228 times as much as my bus.

To proportion their area coverage to displacement I need 30,236.6 sq feet. This is a big gap. However, their ppm is 2/3 less than what I would concentrate it at, not to mention the other conditions of VO use, HH0 effect, etc. So that is 94.4 times as much as I have right now. Factoring in higher ppm concentration at around 2000 ppm, that leaves me with approximately 20157.7 sq feet necessary. That makes it 62.99 times more than what I have, however, I can stack vegetation units and maximize plant production coverage, layering the systems as needed.

The numbers will drop considerably when I start using VO and algae fuel, but I want to base my numbers off of the worst case scenario.

Comments please!?!

source of adequate light considered in when you are stacking units, how big are these unit to be? How will you maintain the stability of the system since you are using some highly variable input such as infrequent sewage inflows? It seems awful complicated for a mobile transport system, which are typically utilized somewhat irregularly unlike a fixed facility like a home or commercial/industrial facility.

Yeah you got it RCE

he's trying to fly & has yet to master crawling.

Getting one of these systems optimized would be great, getting [I count] 9 systems optimized & syncronized in a stationary environment would be a monumental undertaking for a team, with very deep pockets.

the chances of being able to get a significant grant without showing documented success for at least one of the ones with actual innovative possibilities is slim...

if the friend of a friend who claims to have good results [HHO] & can document this he would be the 1st...

ahh to be young & know everything

I am using LEDs mostly, which take up little space and power. The units will be homemade, of 18 gallon kenmore containers, pvc piping, and 2 in pvc fence posts. The fence post are where the plant sites are, and I can have it layered and extend hoses for the pumps to reach the sprayers. I can use upside down root drip systems for plant growth and try to maximize the coverage, basically have it engulfed in vegetation. I will be experimenting as I go on different growth rates of plants, and do composition analysis in the vegetables. If it is safe, I will eat it, if not: compost.

it is not really to transform the automotive industry although there may be something in feeding algae with exhaust and using it for fuel.

What it is for is a hands on model. It is too complicated to talk about the planet's systems when we can't see most of it, so I made it small enough to fathom. It shows the interdependence of ecological diversity, the cleansing properties, it introduces concepts of finitude in regards to the by-products of humanity and the planet's ability to distribute and reuse the by-products. Co2 is not a bad thing, when the uptake coverage of the earth is in proportion to output...it is when the output is more than what vegetation production coverage allows that there is toxicity. It is an educational model, I am going to travel in it and present it to various institutions. This is only a small part to raise money to fund bioremediation projects to actually start restoring devastated ecosystems, and experiment with sustainable communities...Brazil, Colombia and other countries are trying it out, the US should have its own movement.

HHO does not work.

SCR cannot be used in situations where load varies continuously, requires accurate control and monitoring, and has power requirements to keep the catalyst the proper temperature. So, it will not work in your application.

How are you going to control the CO2 concentration? Your exhaust will be nearly 100% CO2 after the water drops out.

Have you calculated the weight of all this stuff?

I could go on, but this has gotten fairly absurd. You seem to have very limited knowledge on each of the systems you are putting in. Some have no chance of success. The others that have some chance of success are research projects on their own.

I admire what you are trying to do, but you don't seem to be thinking things through.