Old technologies revisited

Im good with this!!!

I understand as the Egyptians to create a flat surface (foundation) in the bed rock to build off of, they carved shallow channels in it and kept it filled with water, and then they removed the bedrock down to a given distance from the water level. thus creating a level surface.

phoenix911

We can figure out how we would do it, but how did the Egyptians do it? Did they know something we didn't? Is it a good assumption to make,that the way we think it was done was the way it was done?

I think the ancients had something we dont The pyramids are impressive even if you have cranes to build them and these guys probably didnt

The earth was surrounded by a canopy of water Perhaps a comet struck the earth disrupting the canopy and causing an Axis Tilt This would explain the rapid freezing of Woolly Mammoths and the tilt of the earths axis Just a thought

I concur with the tilted axis concept I long thought this...but I am inclined to believe the tilt was due to mans self destructive patterns.

The tilting of the earth brought our four season to bear and enhanced the glacial erosin to where the predictability of the creeping glacier is in question. Since this can be questioned what other geological timeline is in error......

Imagine the First full moon while the waters were on the face of the earth, wonder the pull of the tide did not rock us out of orbit, it could not have lasted longer than 40 days or there may have been no respite... respite.... this word in itself tells what we have now is not long lasting but filled with a temporary sense of dread that the worst is yet to come.

If man could regain the respect for the world they live in there would be a chance for redemption but when the creator is belittled and forced from the minds of the people by organized goverments with hidden agendas.....what hope do we have....

Do we send the Steve Irwin out on the high seas to commit eco terrorism or sponser Greenpeace for thier counterdestructive behavior. These groups breed violence and call it just, no violence is just but seems to be required by mans still primitive mind.

The truth is we have no alternative to fossil fuels, not wide spread, not yet. Do we take necessities from societys bordering on collapse and starvation all in the name of the future humanity..... what future will there be for them, who are we to say....

The third world countries have learned from "our" past that violence wins rights and rights give stature and stature fills the coffers with the blood of more than diamonds.

What have we learned......taught....?

Perhaps the canopy affected the laws of physics different on an electrical scale and the form of atomic power used then is not conceivable in our current state.

What we have seen from the Mayan's and Eygptian's tells us there are untapped powers on this small rock.

While they were primitive in thier superstitions they seemed to have expansive knowledge concerning the stars and the ability to construct cities of stone as by the stars they looked to.

This is not chance, it is predestinated behavoir.

By thier plans our destiny was formed.

Perhaps it was not an exterior explosion but an interior implosion.

OK, OK. Stop. Go outside and count how many suns you see in your sky. Ronseto asked a good question, and I would be interested in it, and it just got highjacked by "alternate theories".

Ronseto, I'd welcome the chance to participate in such a forum.

Yes, sounds like this thread got hijacked. You are welcome to participate right here and maybe steer the thread back on track.

Please take a few minutes to view this it is very on topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4

Just watched the video, here it is as a direct link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4 Really impressive, this guy can really get things done without miracles, ancient wisdom or extraterrestrial help. The obvious factor is time. It would be quicker with a crane, but that one guy can shift the weights he is shifting is incredibly impressive.

The techniques are those used by furniture removals guys and everyone who shifts heavy weights for a living. This guy has just applied them to thimngs we would not consider moveable by one man.

Watch the video, and thank you Kay for the original link. This video really sums up the whole topic. GA to you

Simon

Sorry folks it snowballed...

Is it possible that the ancient architects , engineers, & builders had developed a mastery of the use of Simple machines (lever, wedge, pulley et al) to a degree beyond OUR experience? I don't agree with the "supernatural construction methods' that we hear talk about. The Architecture & engineering of the Pyramids is as fantastic as the actual construction

There is a theory circulating that the building blocks of the pyramids were cast in place in forms as concrete. But this doesn't help us at stonehenge or on Easter island

Well worth discussing, but I think we will discover a continuum, rather than miraculous methods.

Look at european cathedrals of the Middle Ages, try rebuilding the Empire State with the equipment and technology it was built with.

The factors that change are minimal health and safety, more people and more time. And simple engineering, levers and rollers, pulleys and surprise surprise, animal power. Not obviously in all cases as Mayan and Aztec civilisations had minimal or no animal power.

But the base question is good and valid. With peak oil upon us, good simple engineering and renewable energy are more relevant than ever.

Simon

Hi, no miracles at that time nor at our time.

We often do not know what the old people used.

Some rare examples (mechanism of Antikythera) show us that they have been far more advanced than we had estimated, so as we do not know what is lost, we just can speculate about.

Transportation of the 800 t blocks of granite was done by ship - loading and unloading is another issue, later transport to Rome and reerection is well documented.

To my knowledge there is ony one true mystery: transportation of the big stone blocks (2000 tons each) that are in the foundations of the Baalbek temple. (Very likely from an earlyer temple from an unknown culture - the early copper and tin traders I suggest.)

There is one of these blocks remaining in the quarry at 8 Km distance, a valley with gently inclined slopes inbetween.

Anybody to suggest an explanation?

Any other mysteries you want to explain?

There is a lot of literature from 60 years ago on engineering from the beginnings to 18th century (maybe in German only, search for Feldhaus).

There is also a voluminous compilation: www.nri.org.uk/science.html

Needham,: Science and civilisation inChina.

RHABE

I have a picture in a book of two large horses shifting 125 tonnes of logs as one load. OK this was on an ice road, but shifting 2,000 tons only needs 1000 times as many people as shifting 2 tons.

Not in any way denigrating the achievements, and I for one wouldn't want to be part of the labour force, but I suspect that it was good simple engineering, as indeed diamond teeth on a copper saw are.

Also remember that a horse is a lot stronger than a horsepower suggests. a horsepower is the load a horse can shift all day.If I ask you whether you can lift a pint, you will say no sweat,, i'll have two, but at the end of a day of lifting and putting down a pint, you might think differently.

So for brief periods and to overcome inertia, a horse can deliver massive amounts of power. And so can people. And whips probably help.

Miracles aren't needed, good engineering is.

Simon

You are certainly right.

Uphill will be a bit more difficult.

The sledges that are shown in the ancient Egyptian paintings are shown in these paintings to be lubricated by some slaves that pour a liquid into the contact zone, very likely sludge from the Nile, very slippery.

I have less problems with transport then with quarrying.

RHABE

good point, hadn't thought of that.

any experts out there who know how to cut huge blocks of stone with simple equipment

Simon

No expert here.Ive read a theory that in the case of limestone, holes were bored into the stone and filled with moistened wooden wedges which expanded and caused the stone to crack giving room for more wedges to be added until the stone would split. Im not sure this method would wok as well on granite.

Hello ronseto: I ran into a discussion on the Pyramids and an 19th century Blacksmith Engineer who during the Victorian exploits of the middle east and all the speculations got fed up with all the BS and went to check it out for himself.

I haven't had the chance to check his publication out but he was amazed at the level of technology he found evidence of.

He realised that the tool marks on the stone could have only been left by massive saws that were cutting granite at over a quarter inch per revolution. He came to the deduction that they used water powered copper circular saws with diamonds for teeth. He filled a book with his findings.

I had forgotten about this. I was researching something else, ran into it and filed it away for later study and got back to my research. Now I will have to go find it and share.

Brad

"Blacksmith Engineer who during the Victorian exploits of the middle east and all the speculations got fed up with all the BS and went to check it out for himself."

:) And how?

(Time travel of course!)

Sorry ronseto I haven't been able to find where I squirreled the references away. The jist of it was during the start of the Empirical sacking of the middle east for art and treasures, this highly educated Blacksmith/Engineer gets tired of all the wild speculation on the making of the monumental sites and goes to Egypt to find out for himself. The book he wrote documented his findings.

His perspective was aided by living in the age of machines when many things we now do with machine tools were done with hand tools. Also much of the artifacts were still there before the then modern empires carted off or destroyed anything not nailed down and well hidden for art and bragging rights.

He supposedly found all types of tool marks of what we would consider modern tools. His writing also were to have detailed infrastructure to have ran the industrial complexes to make the wonders he documented.

It sounded very interesting. I may find it yet.

There are many questions from the time of pyramid building that pique my interest. If the Great pyramid holds 2 million stones averaging 20 tons and the evidence points to it's being built over 20 years that is about 5 1/4 minutes per 20 ton stone 24/7 for 20 years not to include anything else.

Once you factor in: planning; foundation work; transportation; maintenance and repairs; quarrying; shaping; fitting and setting; weather; very minimal steel from meteorites and probably less than a hundred tons of basic copper alloys; labor; Holidays and religious interruptions; and night work being a trick in its own right, quite a feat.

Now if the entire structure was built to the tolerances of the grand gallery the feat was orders of magnitude more difficult.

Hi,

how many places in parallel may have been in operation on putting one stone after the other one?

The basic circumference is more than 500m, so there may have been 20 or so stations with cranes operated by human power, remaining there to bring the stones one or two layers up then being gripped by the next station more up?

It is really amazing!

Not to forget the white outermost layer of limestone painted in miracles to later visitors (Herodot visited 500 B.C. and writes about). This layer is gone now and was used to erect the beautiful Mosques of Cairo.

RHABE

So white that it was hard on the eyes in the bright sun.

So 20 stations to start, best station gets to finish, average of ten over 20 years due to reducing circumference. That is still 53 minutes per 20 ton stone.

Could we do it with a little hand worked nickel steel and less than a 100 tons of non exotic copper alloy. I think we would have a hard time with modern power tools and special built equipment. Now if we could use concrete for mortar and not have to fit and adjust the shape of stones to their neighbors so they can support the weight to last thousands of years.

One not fast method I figured out years ago was to fit the stones close, with in a 1/4 of an inch or so and then pull a 1/4 inch rope saw and cut between the stones. The saw would follow the path of least resistance and cut the stones parallel to each other. Still be some tricks to match both sides of a corner and not have one side a 1/4 inch out of alignment. Or move the stone 4 times for one setting. Not including a few miles of rope all 1/4 inch in diameter. A flat rope/strap would work even better, more side cutting area.

Herodotus claimed 20 years to build the great pyramid. Of course he was writing about 1500 years after they were built and operating on hearsay.

There are supposed to 2.5 million blocks averaging 2.5 tons in this pyramid. Some blocks are as much as 20 tons.

Labor was predominantly obtained from farmers during the Nile floods so about half a year was available with a large labor force. (The total population of Egypt at this time was probably less than a million, so a labor force of about 200, 000 would be a maximum. This seems to have been a form of social welfare - employing the farmers who were temporarily unemployed).

A small force of specialists would be available at other times for specialized preparatory tasks (mainly planning, organizing future supplies etc, but little physical work apart from surveys and making special items)

To place the blocks in the available time means you must average about 57 blocks per hour of available working time (assuming a 12 hour day, ie roughly dawn to dusk).

Early on the rate would need to be much higher, because the size of the beast allowed a lot of work in parallel, but this itself required a high standard of planning and surveying to ensure the parallel work all matched up later.

As the structure rose, space would become far more restricted, so much less parallel work could be done. Near the top it would eventually reduce to a block at a time.

As the structure rose, more labor would be involved in getting material to those who were placing it, whereas in the early stages a larger proportion of the workforce would be placing blocks.

Not sure how they moved the blocks. Ramps would require more material than the pyramid itself although a layer of wet clay on a well compacted ramp allows blocks to be slid with little friction. Of course the footing available for the workers is also slippery so the wetting would have to be carefully scheduled.

Of course, the 20 years may be too long. The Pharaoh who built the bent pyramid also built 2 others during his reign. There are 2 inscriptions on one of these pyramids, one saying that they had taken 2 years to reach half way, the other saying it had been built in 4 years.

Obviously this timescale changes the equation somewhat, but it is still probably basically a question of scheduling and project management.

Another theory is that the "blocks" are actually made of geopolymer which, when set is indistinguishable from natural rock. (I don't know if it is actually indistinguishable from natural rock).

In this case the blocks were cast in alternate molds simultaneously with the infil blocks cast next.

While this solves some problems, the organization of manufacturing the vast amount of geoploymer needed (crushing rock, mining and mixing ingredients, roasting, regrinding etc) becomes as big a problem as doing it the other way.

However it was done, the planning and project management involved make it an extraordinary achievement.

What other processes are you suggesting ?

I believe mummification was designed to give the dead a body they could use in the afterlife. Doesn't seem to have worked as most of the mummies are now in museum showcases or storerooms, not the afterlife of wine, women and song they were promised.

Food storage ideas end up as mummification if you persist long enough and believe it has a useful end result. We can see the end result, your body will be gawped at by the ignorant throughout eternity, so for all their ability, what did they get?

Mummification is hardly a world shattering technology, it is merely a rather obvious example of deluded beliefs in the afterlife.

Simon

But what if we decide resurrection is acceptable for the previous inhabitants of Earth when we decide to move on as a society! Then the resurrection system will have to be intensely creative to find all the destroyed and cremated bodies; but mummified people will be a no brainer! Just because we decide resurrection is slightly passe now doesn't make the children of the future wrong for wanting to complete their ancient ancestors along with the current population. Just think how many memories of 'how things work' people contain that would make the point of oblivion disappear.

The point is not the mummification but the minds and abilities behind it.

The assumption is that predeluvian man was short sighted , I think there is more here than meets the eye.

http://www.hunkler.com/pyramids/pyramid_symbolism.html#cusuni

Timetraveler

The 'Geophysical and Astronomical section' on this site is "Mind Boggling"

What types of instruments/ measuring devices were available to the designers???

Thanks for the link

I found the link eye-opening, your welcome.

Great link!

One of the authors mentioned in the bibliography was Peter Tompkins, who also wrote "The Mysteries of the Mexican Pyramids", also mind boggling. The book "Ley Lines" (forgot the author) connects the dots around the world.

Mummification is no biggie. Anything that dries out in the desert gets mummified. Ask any WW II vet from N. Africa. Or was it a forest at the time?

Why is we must keep suggesting that there was no other process than primitive pulleys and levers.

Who suggested this, though if you look at it, add the concept of an axle and most things are pulleys levers and axles, with in the case of the internal combustion engine, something to go bang.

Simple isn't derogatory, simple, in engineering and design terms is good.

I start drawing complex designs but as they .improve they become simple and consequently better. Primitive includes wheels, levers, pulleys, axles and I am sure the engineers here can add endless other "primitive" technology they use on a daily basis. Writing, measuring, rulers, levels. That is the point that primitive engineering, using the basis of all engineering, can do amazing things, but with huge caterpillar shovels, cranes, explosives, etc we have forgotten the old applications.

Simon

That is simple analogy to a complex design.

The pulleys and levers you describe in an engine are built within a degree of specs with well tooled stamps and presses. The tools that make the tools are of a more complex design than the tools themselves.

Now if we enhance our thinking to understand how they stamped out a sequenced size=year equasion and then block all expansion rates. Lifted several ton blocks to cap the the tops and did this all while keep the block sizes within a certain perimeter.

How did they avoid wieght/gravity expansion on the blocks below?

I am sorry my friends the explanations here offer no solution.

Even a mold as one suggested with poured stone is subject to expansion.

My observation of the simple; is taking all the facts and apply the now and then.

This topic seems to stuck on the presumption the we are the only society on this green ball we live on to have ever expanded our horizons, while a simple 100 years ago we only had horses and buggies.

To imply there was no broader thinking and design application in history of the world until the last century is arrogant if anything.

But that seems to define mens minds today,they think they are the only ones that have empowered thier senses to think above the spectrum of what is possible and what is not.

Our arrogance has given us greed, wars,famine,disease,poverty. Are we any different or better than what we were?

Perhaps mans ego has blinded him from the ablities of another, it would not be the first time.

You must mean "suggested".... see the above posts.

What about the "Baghdad battery", what did it run?

Why would there be a need to produce electricity in such a primitive society.

Must we maintian rank and file with our presumptions?

The etched building in water way canyons gave me the thought that Egyptians had some idea about stonework fusing stronger when saturated with water; but I'd hate to suppose greater ability than what they actually possessed.

"Baghdad battery"

Hi,

take the salts from the desert and it will work. (Mixture of soda and salts).

Name of the big desert in todays Saudi-Arabia is "Rhub al Khali" - our word alkali for caustic salts derived from this.

RHABE

Try this link: http://coralcastle.com/

Worth a look and this is what the builder said about how he did the "miraculous" work.

When questioned about how he moved the blocks of coral, Ed would only reply that he understood the laws of weight and leverage well.

Simon

Here is what I also observed.

The size equals standard one year: 365.24

Circuit of the base: 36,524.24" is this chance, I am not a math genius but I know enough to say it is not chance. To what degree did they build so precise with ramps and rudimentry levers. It would be a better calculation to say the earth was brought to the dimensions of the pyramid.....since we must remember that stone will expand when subject to heat and shrink in like with cold.

We know that high compression reinforced concrete will expand at aprox .001 mm per 10 m per 10 degrees C.

The stone is not high PSI so the expansion rate would be greater. thus if they built it in accordance to the earth rotation, why did it not expanded?

http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/360-days.html

If we move on to the proper Earth year as some call a Prophetic Year it contains a 360 day year. When we apply Keplers law this works from the equator in a predeluvian orbit with the earth set pole to pole.

I will be as bold to suggest the dimension are not tuned to the earths rotation but had a part in the altering of the the earths orbit by tilting it on its axis and bring on the flood.

I see a world changing catastrophic event brought on by man and the pyramid is the only summing caculation left.

I suggest the technolgy and understanding of high equasions in the thier day resulted in the current year.

In affect they tapped into Gods great labratory and got shocked by what they found.

Kinda like when the atom bomb was loosed.

I am not beyond accepting the fine abrasive tool cutting of the stone or even a wet cutting but this would leave a silt in the quarries, again this could have been washed out by the flood. It is the transportation of said items that blocks and levers cannot explain, we are no talking about a back yard obelisk.

Or you can retain the absurd suggestion that they were not built by the hiearchys slaves, but by willing workers who gave thier lives, familys and all for the whim of thier great leader.... what hypocrisy.

I am rambling again, I will stop......there is so much to say.

(for full disclosure, this is Benbenben....still unable to post while logged in) [p/]

i think the suggestion of a forum is an excellent idea. [p/]

When considering what might have been feasable, it is important to be open to the idea that motivations and thought processes of ancient people might have been markedly differnet than thoze of contemporary people. [p/]

while is is easy to conceptualize people today being more resistant to long hours and grueling work than ancient people.....especially when the project would not likely be completed in their lifetime; realize that the mental differences could have possibly been much more dramatic. [p/]

consider how an ant colony works. how often do you think ants call in sick, work slow, file hostile work environment complaints....? ants thought processes and therherefor social structure and ultimately ability to accomplish incredible feats given their resources; is markedly different the human of today. [p/]

some people theorize, based on lack of self aware language in the early books of the old testamant as well as in the early portions of the illiad, as well as on similarities between modern unmedicated schitzophrenic command hallucinations and those commands heard by people in the early bible and easly illiad, that modern self awaremess is a relatively recent development. james wrote a book on the bicameral mind and development of self awareness that set off a firestorm of controversy in the 1970s. his theories are typically dismissed today, though without much to support the dismissal. [p/]

without the modern view of self in most peoplee, the ruling few may have been able to depend upon complete devotion to a task....or perhaps it was more of a hive mind.... [p/]

whatever the case, it is important to not presume we know exactly what was going through the mind of the ancients when we first consider if a particular scenario might be possible. [p/]

along similar lines...i highly recommend reading Guns, Germs, and Steel.... an excellent book with ideas that are well supported.

To clarify some terms:

All of CR4 is a forum

Each question asked on The forum known as CR4 is a thread.

The forum is divided up into sections [the list is on the right], this thread being in the General section

Individuals or groups also make contributions to CR4 using Blogs

If you or Ronseto, Time Traveler, ect, ect would like to start a blog, you should contact administration & ask

Guns Germs and Steel is an impressive book, and has made me rethink a number of basic assumptions on using horses and draught animals generally, but I don't feel it supports your position on "the mind of the ancients" or a "hive mentality". I am always suspicious of the word "ancient" applied to people, becuase it is always tied to the word wisdom, which I find unlikely. Surely there must have been loads of ancient stupidity around.

And the concept of "hive mentatlity" assumes a seperate group of "hive brain caste", and despite the endemic entusiasm for aristocracy, there is no sign that the children of the leaders are any more intelligent, good, brave or noble than the average.

I am afraid that the boring answer of good engineering, and forgotten technology, (on which subject Guns germs and Steel is very informative) is more likely than ancient wisdom in the aristocracy and highly obedient peasants worshipping their wisdom, and obeying their every command.

Whips, violence and the usual techniques of tyranny are much more likely.

Simon

Saddle Chariot ,I am inclined to agree with you on every case presented outside of the "Great Pyramid" which seems to be a case of its own! The mathematics. positioning, and all the details of its layout leads me to questions and inquiry,.I must take a position of agreement with "Time Traveler" The design criteria suggests knowledge above and beyond the ordinary and I am not one to assume "Dumb Luck" We need to hear from our moderator! Ronseto what's up?

Hi Saddlechariot,

you are certainly right that "the mind of the ancients" and "ancient people" are not designating special skills or wisdom.

But whips, violence and tyranny is a matter of fact and some spectacular work can be done under such a bad regime.

But best engineering and art is done in competition and in appraisal of the artist or the to be presented king/priest/god...

There have been magnificent engineers in antique times: not only the great and some more pyramids, the irrigation systems, temples, ships, machines.

There is a magnificent book from Landström: Ships of the Pharaohs.

But: I have not seen many examples that cannot be explained and I would want here the believers of wonders around the great pyramid to post their question so we can think how this or that might be done.

Jared Diamond with "Guns, Germs and Steel has certainly written one of the important books of the last 20 years. Did you read "The rise and the fall of the third chimpanzee" ?

Magnificent too.

Amazing for my thought:

our ancestors 100 Kyears ago had a 10% larger brain volume compared to modern human!

the European languages point back to the time of first domestication of horses with the related conquering of the rest of Europe by the (Ukrainians I think) and imprinting their language on everybody here.

Also highly recommendable:

Steven Cunnane: Survival of the fattest. and:

Richard Conniff: The Ape in the Office Corner.

Have fun at reading

RHABE

Sorry, should havve replied sooner, but work, every so often, needs to be done.

haven't read any other jared diamond books, but definitely going to and will try your other suggestions.

re horse domestication, and the Ukraine, if you are referring to the Sredny Stog excavations, there is some doubt about the validity of the conclusions. Actually the whole horse history is a mine field becuase there is an awful lot of money tied up in "breeds" and therefore horse history is written with an eye to the cash register, not the best way to get honesty.

Simon

Boy is that the truth. DNA is showing many misconceptions in the horse world as the human world.

Did some editorial work on the Kieger Mustang genome.

At least In the US you know where your original stock came from, ie by sea from Europe North Africa, but back in Europe we have all the Arab, noblest breed nonsense to contend with. If Arab and Bedouin oral tradition is so accurate that the lineage of horses can be traced back to the time of the prophet, why can people take the Bedouin ancestral lands and ignore these same "infallible" oral traditions.

The answer, of course is that the horse has evolved differently in different environments and under different human societies. The Bedouin wanted speed and an ability to cope with desert conditions, the Shetland islanders wanted the opposite and got it.

If we ignore all the "breed" nonsense, which is inherently racist, (I work in inner cities with ponies, and if I started asking people "what breed are you?", I would be in deep trouble) and go back to the concept of type, we can discuss this intelligently.

!890 farm adverts in the UK almost never mentioned breed when selling farm horses. They gave age, height and sex which the buyer obviously cared about. If breed had been relevant then, they would have mentioned it. So the modern infatuation with breed, is based on money.

And this is why it is so difficult to get people to look at horses and ponies as power systems, because for the last 50 years they have been bred and sold by people infatuated with the "aristocratic" theory of breeding. Are human athletes selected on parentage and breeding. Do you, or does your boss, select the workforce on the basis of "breed"?

If we want to use horsepower intelligently we have to look at what it is, a power source. Working machinery, unlike sporting machinery, works at a power level that will allow it to last the lifetime of the job. A Formula 1 race car lasts one race, my old Subaru has done 170,000 miles and I hope it will do a lot more, but i don't push it to it's limits.

Using horse or pony power sensibly, ie in the middle of the available power band, provides an intelligent, manoeuvrable self fuelling power source, green, eco friendly etc. If we let ourselves get bogged down in racist, breedist nonsense, we will waste a valuable resource.

I am not labelling this off topic, because "horsepower" is treated by far too many as an old technology, when it should be a future technology.

If forty years ago, you had said there was a future in sails for cargo ships, and windmills, you would have been laughed at.

I say there is a future for horsepower, but to make it work we must look resolutely forward, not subscribe to the racist aristocratic theories of the traditionalists, and not see the Amish who reject modern life as the way forward. I am using the latest bearings, latest materials, LED lighting, CNC routers, TIG welding and looking to use MORE modern techniques, not less.

I am also rejecting the idea that whips are a communication device. Try persuading cotton picking slaves that whips were a communication device, which of course they were, rather than a brutal method of suppression, which they also were.

Simon

I had in mind this exhibition, (1991 in Schleswig, northern Germany), but relooked this catalog and found that the earlyest findings of horse related were around 2000 BC. Cover of catalogue below.

So very likely my memoriy is mixed up a bit and the early information about horses in Ukrainia (around 6000 BC) came from a SciAm article about the origin of early domesticated animals.

RHABE

Here is a link to a book on the Sredny Stog nonsense.

You will notice that pieces of antler are inferred to be the cheek pieces of bits and therefore they must have ridden the horses. This nonsense is based on the theory you need bits to ride and drive. I work Obama in city centres in a simple rope halter. you don't need a bit, the whole sredny stog nonsense falls apart. they clearly ate horses, and may have domesticated them, and may have ridden or driven them, but there is no need to briing bits into the discussion, and bits are the only evidence of domestication, and there is no evidence the things are bits.

All good fun.

Simon

forgive me, it was not my intention to imply that Guns Germs and Steel, supported the ideas suggested by Juliam Jaynes.

i mentioned Diamond's work, because it is extremely well written, impecably backed up, and thought provoking...... and runs along similar lines as this discussion.

Julian Janes unlike Diamond, suggests some possibilities, that are not well backed up. in that reguard, i do not share with Jaynes the conviction i have in Diamond.

i do hold open the possibility that what occurred could have resembled what Jaynes suggests. There is too much unknown to discount the plauability of his suggestions.

jaynes was not suggesting that ancient people had some special wisdom, and you misread what i wrote, if you thought that was what i suggested. if you are interested then google 'Jaynes Bicameral mind', and review the ideas and the supporting evidence.

i would be embarrased to claim i knew with any certainty the mindset, motivations, values and level of self awareness of our ancestors living so long ago, who were not just socially and linguistically different, but actually physically different.

the dominant order of the contemporary mind is one seated as a separate entity in the body in a world painted and described by the language(s) we learn.

in the contemporary mind, the brain operates on not some native base code, but on the lanuage we are taught from birth and any others we master along the way

in the contemporary mind, the two hemispheres, share and collaborate. internal dialogue is commonly used to work through possible outcomes.

is it possible that any of this was different for people so different from ourselves, so long ago?

even if none of these things differed, consider thateven today there are languages spoken that do not hold the idea of cause and effect...... i.e. 'the milk itself fell onto the floor.... there can be no description nor idea of cause or blame.

....or consider that Japanese, is filled with subtlety and nuance which might never be fully expressed in some other language......and yet Japanese only has two verb tenses, 'past' and 'non-past'..... and so communicating something like ''by then the party will have been going on for 4 hours" would require an incredible effort.

i would be embarrassed at my pretentiousness if i found myself claiming to know with certainty the mindset, values and motivations of a native speaker of Japanese living in a Japanese language dominated culture today.

i can't imagine claiming to know with certainty the mindset, values and motivations of people markedly different than ourselves living so long ago.

Benbenben

I agree that language is critical to thought processes and may have affected the way that people thought, but unless we imagine two seperate languages for the rulers and the ruled, while the rulers think of brilliant ways to build the pyramids, the workers, with the same brain and language, think of devious ways to avoid hard labour, and anyone clever enough to design a pyramid can fake a sick note from Mum.

To me this is the fallacy of the "wisdom of the ancients". My pony has worked out plenty of ways to avoid work and increase leisure, his favourite being to go and chat to people in the street. Unless we accept the Von Daniken "Chariot of the Gods" extra terrestrial theory, we cannot postulate an incredibly intelligent ruling class without assuming the workers are just as intelligent, but probably have different motivations, or indeed the same. The rulers want huge pyramids without doing hard physical work. I am sure the laboureres would have been quite happy with the same.

The trick question, is how do you control the working classes?

Why do you think they were different?

Indo-European language.

Writing with symbols.

Drinking beer, eating bred and onions if poor or worker and any type of luxury food if high-ranking.

Going hunting and fishing.

Making love and war.

Good Pharaohs supporting trade and commerce. Bad ones only priests, temples etc.

There was no physical or social difference and any person on this world can learn any language perfectly if starting at the age of 2 to 4 years. So they too, the famous trilingual stone of Rosetta (2500 years later as the great pyramid) helped to decipher the hieroglyphs. There was a strict hierarchical order and Pharaoh was thought to be a god - not too unusual in much later times.

The only difference: they had a pre-metal (largely) technology that was lost 1000 years after the pyramid age with bronze coming into major use (and 2000 years later with iron and steel-making learnt from invaders). So we do not know their equipment how to move stones and place these stones into the intended position. We do know only some sparse details of measurement and construction.

But look how they quarried granite (I admit that this is for the Obelisks and much later but also pure non-metal technology) : hammers with a flexible shaft (15 to 20mm diameter) and a big stone (10 to 20 Kg) of Dolerite, a hole to accept the shaft, clamping not known but likely a bit of wet cloth. With any hit on the granite some material converted to dust, sand and gravel. Sitting in long lines the workers, everybody having a working field of 80 x 80 cm to crush, certainly some strategy to avoid crashing of tools with the neighbours to the left and right. Finished examples (transported, sculptured and erected elsewhere) up to 300m³ or 800 tons, unfinished one 2000 tons. Transport with support of a specialised boat on the Nile and canals, erection details not known. Grinding and polishing of stones known (at the time of Pyramids) for more than 1000 years.

Look at the composite bow of Tutankhamen: sophisticated!

Look at the grinding marks of stone artifacts - I saw a small vase (broken so the inner surface was easy to inspect) from the Negade culture (800 years older than the Pyramids) with tool marks from an inner-grinding machine, may be only a rotating tool without rotation for the workpiece.

So stress your brain to find a quick and efficient possibility to move the 2 to 20 ton stones up the walls of the Pyramid, forget about ramps, too slow. And try to reinvent an optical or mechanical tool to direct the placement.

And a strategy to clamp and un-clamp and deposit and adjust at the exact place.

RHABE (I am trying too.)

They Did it and we will figure it out but the shear scale is boggling. I also think they used many methods and to each was a best conditions use.

Brad

It seems like the concern to rate a comment "off topic" takes a priority to the discussion concerning the presumptive facts about the building of the pyramids.

The Chinese had records concerning the building of the great wall and we know it was built on the blood path of the workers.

Easter Island seems to be an unsolvable riddle but has a much easier explanation based the link to the back yard oblesick builder.

As far as the pyramids we all can only presume as we were not there and there is little left to bolster any theory except for other theories.

This limited scope of evaluation suprises me when we that post here are assumed to thinkers, innovaters and problem solvers.

When solving an issue one must look into the mind of the man/men who created the situation that spawned the topic . If it were as simple as attempting to rebuild it by hand with old methods then we would not be having this discussion.

This being said, all the facts concerning the project at hand must be taken into consideration, when defining "how".If we were to discuss the Bose-Einstien Condensate then would it be off topic to bring some background about Cornell and Wieman into the conversation ?

I marvel more at the Design Criteria,than the actual construction processes! regarding the Great Pyramid. The position is such that Longitudinally And Laterally it sits at the intersect of the Earths largest land mass(OK maybe that's "just by chance'). Its Height is such that it represents a scale model Of the earths land height, from sea level to the himalayas ( Ok maybe dumb luck) The 365.24 dimension (could have just stumbled on to this one) What mystifies me is all this was done with Plumb bobs, string, and rudimentary Transit Levels! HELP ME OUT GUYS! It is difficult with today's high tech construction instruments to achieve such accuracy

There is more that is not known how the engineers of that time did achieve their plans:

The ratio of circumference at the base to the height is 2pi wit 10-5 accuracy, the location is the 30° of latitude and without doubt the zero longitude of that time.

This was a center of measurement and science, but this can be achieved without much modern sophisticated methods and instruments.

If anybody would like to know more about a modern version to achieve accuracy without modern machines I always refers to the book of

Moore: "Foundations of mechanical accuracy"

So let us think how they did achieve this beautiful and fantastic result. Let us assume that their engineers would be among the best today. I am sure we will come to solutions of the construction problems: get the stones ready in the quarry, transport to construction site, grip with crane and place into final position!

No metals allowed, ample human power available.

RHABE

RHABE Well said, however If i as a builder am given design criteria such as what must have been given by the architect/ structural engineer of this endeavor How do i fulfill the The designers directives with a Plumb bob, Square ,and ball of string?? I am asking you from the position of "Contractor" you are the designer/engineer/architect. HOW DO I AS BUILDER CARRY OUT YOUR DESIGN WISHES ?????

I got an email from David Brin and he ask me to pass on this thought:

I found it as I have found his work, insightful and thought provoking.

"...that yes, the ancients knew and did some advanced things that we are only now verifying or figuring out that they did. But think. The amazing thing is NOT that ancients were clever. They were, after all, bright human beings.

No, the amazing thing is that they were so STUPID as to keep such a huge fraction of their advances secret! And hence, when a single city burned, much of their lore burned, too.
The way in which we are much smarter is not all the things we can do, but in the social innovations of openness, transparency, general education, fearlessly argumentative science, non-aristocratic rule, and a belief that knowledge should be shared."

He also stated he enjoyed the link to the youtube stone builder.