What's a Patent Worth?

If Birds Eye and Clorox actually stole this mans idea after he brought it to them, I hope he wins big. To these companies it's just another item for their "counsel" to handle but it sounds like the fight is about to ruin him.

After reading the article it makes me wonder if his original patents were broad enough. If the original patent claims were not broad enough, someone else may be able to use the basic idea and still not infringe the patent. If this is what happened it highlights the idea that an original patent must be very well written if you are going to run with the big dogs.

As anyone who has attempted to enforce a patent has found, the value of a patent is found most often by the sale of a patent. Defending a patent typically only enriches the attorneys. I wish this guy a lot of luck and a warning to not be greedy.

Unfortunately, the litigation often outlasts the injured party, and the lawyers are the only one's to profit.

I've been through this with a former company. The lawyers love it.

In June of this year I attempted to sell a concept.

I did have an attorney involved.

I did have a Non Disclosure Agreement.

I did not tell the company I was pitching except in general terms what exactly I was talking about.

(I consider it a sign of my ability to write successfully to have been able to get their ear, while beating around the bush.) I did note that the NDA was only good for 3 years, and that basically what that meant was they could simply wait 3 years, and then legally steal the concept.

My attorney said it was the best we could get in the circumstances.

It is unlikely that I will be able to get my product to market this year.

If I don't beat the competition to market with my product, I fully expect to be ripped off either before, or after the expiration of the NDA protections.

Money is involved. I found a 3 billion a year international retail market with no competitive product available to buy online that would satisfy a certain desire.

Some millions could well be made.

If any out there are interested and have some money to invest, I'll respond to a PM, and refer you to my attorney.

Though I did post a joke about attorneys, the Devil, Engineers, and God, and have recently suffered a bit of a nervous breakdown, I have long said, "Everybody hates attorneys, till they need one." These days when I am out of my mind I call an attorney before I call a "Mental Health Professional." P.S. I like accountants and insurance agents as well.

Mate, you should have stayed in bed. No offense meant, at all. These guys can breath air, so thin, that we die practically instantly, if subjected to it. They are trained to take the breath out of you and know no mercy.

To the OP:

Whats a patent worth? Well, whats a bridge worth or a skyscraper. Its like the laws of thermodynamics, what you put in is what you get out. In the best case scenario. Usually you get eff all out of it and as a single entity you have chances of one in a million to get your investment back. You are dreaming if you think you can beat the system. It has been tried so many times it is not funny.

The price to the individual is just to high to even consider. If you have no return on your investment within 12 months, your not more than pet food to all involved. In some of the cases not even dogs would touch an otherwise excellent idea. Financial drag is like trying to fish on an out going tied.

Strength in numbers is the best way to go and keep it quiet as long as one can. 'Hope for the best' has helped but is not recommended. Its rough out there and prisoners are not taken. All the best, Ky.

Hopefully the Attorney you were using was a Patent Attorney and not just a regular Attorney. A patent Attorney (which is a separate legal certification) would know how to set it up ahead of time to give you the best protection even if he/she was not working on your patent yet.

An excellent book on how to market your inventions that includes pre-patent guidelines and NDA examples is "The Inventors Bible" by Docie. I have talked to him and he has real successes, not just some dope that wrote a book for a buck.

"Live in Hope, Die in Vain!"

Did the best I could with what I had, knowing there was risk.

Frankly my attorney had limited experience with the issues, but I was grateful for the help.

At least he came to the table, and the company pitched to at least knew he was there and had demanded to see a signed copy of the NDA from them, so at least we knew there was a credible witness who had standing, and had insisted on a paper trail.

On this particular issue I, "We." are not completely dead in the water.

Certainly in the history of inventions and inventors the story of what the Wright Brothers did to make one thing, and maintain patents is real strong on lessons.

I have more than once recommended the book The Quest for Flight by Jim Tobin, on this forum, and do so here again.

There did come a time when Orville did fly their invention up and down the Hudson river to prove they could do it, and nobody else could.

If one cannot afford to pay lawyers etc. to protect/defend a patent...a patent ain't worth nuthin'...

To use revenue raised by selling products under the umbrella of a patent to protect/defend a patent, hardly a worthy business practice and likely to end in failure and piracy.

I have a simpler solution, my invention, the saddlechariot is a work of art. And it is performance art which includes inventing, building and selling the saddlechariot.As an artist, I get copyright for free, and the state will prosecute on my behalf. Engineers being common people have to pay through their noses to get the original protection and then to police it. Decide you are an artist and therefore not a common person, and the stuff comes for free.

Anyone questioning the saddlechariot's status as a work of art is welcome to tour any museum of modern art and come back with a definition that includes everything in the museums, but excludes my saddlechariot.

And this theory is free to anyone to use. Best of luck.

Simon

It is your responsibility to defend your patent. It always has been. No one is gonna stand up for you, except the lawyer. And the lawyer is going to look at a few things

A). How much is the civil suit worth (not the patent)

B). What are the odds of winning.

From there it simple mathematics. As a lawyer I charge x amount per hour times my win rate = blah. You will get no more than blah. If you have the chance, and I highly recommend this, develope your patent while in a company. You get no immediately monetary compensation for your patent. It will belong to the company. However, the raise, and/or subequent raises or predatory offerings will be worth way more in the long run on average. Just some food for thought.

"On another note, the value of a patent is not only monetary. Sometimes it is about being the first person to ever nail something together and go down in history. No one can take that from you!"

I agree and on this note with money considerations not taken into account, good answer.

Nicolai Tesla would certainly disagree with being remembered in history. Many people here think that Marconi invented radio.

It does not matter what people remember, it is what is on record at the USPTO that matters. History like science is a matter of fact not rumor.

I politely disagree. For the patent office does not remember anything. The US patent office has long been known for accepting patents for things already patented. (I'll grant you that this is a rare occurrence.) What matters is what resides on the text books for our young. They should know who should get the fame, who was granted a patent, who profited and when and why these three things disagree. Alexander Graham Bell's patent theft of Elisha Grey's work and Tesla's disagreement with Edison that may have permitted Marconi to gain the fame should be known by future inventors.

The patent office is only a source for information just like text books, garbage in garbage out. Considering the patent examiners are only human they do a better job reviewing new applications than you are giving them credit for. It is a great source of factual information. You assume that whoever wrote the text books got it right. Anyone can write a book or post on the internet but it does not make it true.

In a perfect world I would agree that people should get credit where credit is due and that the truth should always be known, but it is not a perfect world.

As an inventor I am satisfied that in the part of the world that I can control, for now I am recorded in history. After I am dead who knows. I am sure I will not care.

My original point was that for me the monetary worth is not everything, and is not what drives me, although it helps.

I believe that we are down to only a difference in semantics. Except that I did over emphasize the errors of the patent office, my apologies. But even in a perfect world I have found that there can be many truths.

Just like Craziest Ozzy, I agree with your last sentence. GA from me too.

I think that is what I will do. Build the gadget. Demonstrate it by running it at the presence of a local newspaper and perhaps onlookers, have it documented and publish that.

I am wondering if there is a downside to that? Anybody know? If so, please advise. Thanks in advance.

Yes, the downside is, if you domonstrate it in the presence of local newspaper, then the gadget becomes public domain with no protection at all. The only thing that you will have is proof that you did it first, maybe!

Masterblaster it might help if you explained the nature of your patents

Hopkins has a tough road to hoe legally. He is trying defend the use of his concepts more than specific designs.

Saddlechariots approach is interesting, I would have no problem considering much of design work art, form does follow function

This is not legal advice and I am not an Attorney.

If you make a "public disclosure" that is considered "enabling" you are not able to get a patent on the matter unless you act within the one year grace period. I am pretty sure (but would have to research) that this public disclosure also bars all others. As you can see this may be hard to police.

This does not seem to be an issue if you are wanting to make your idea available to all without certain types of personal gain.

Thanks for the advise.

I was hoping one can "show" a new gadget in public but not reveal how it works. As Garthh was asking what is the nature of the patent.

Lets just assume it is new pump (its a similar device) where you demonstrate in public the pumping of water for example. Howeber, you do not reveal how the pumps actually works. After all, the internals are covered.

The downside here is, (I a answering my own question) that if the principle of operation is not revealed, how can one later proof that is was the new invention and not something else that was used in the demonstration?

It looks like that going the "public" route is not a good idea. Thanks to all that provided an input to this question.

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish by the public showing as to how it should be approached. You did hit on a very "sticky wicket". Are you trying to bar others from the invention, are you trying to establish yourself as the inventor or are you looking for a buyer for your idea.

I started trying to make up examples for each but then realized there has been buckets of stuff written on the topic. The United States Patent And trademark Office addresses this on their web site. Just go to www.uspto.gov and search public disclosure enabling. Many professional sites also cover it by googling the same three words. MIT (the school) has some very good information on their site about this specific topic.

One way that many people protect their invention for this one year grace period is with a Provisional Patent. The USPTO fees are minimal. This allows time to look for a buyer and it establishes you as the inventor.

Another thing that was mentioned here is copyright protection. Saddlechariot brings up a possibility easier and cheaper option. Please note copyright protection is not the same as utility patent protection. The USPTO site says: 'The copyright protects the "form of expression" rather than the subject of writing'. In general this does not cover the utilitarian operation of something but more like what a book says or how something looks. A design patent is another similar animal. The USPTO site has excellent explanations of copyright, utility patent and design patent that helps us to understand when to use each.

Thank you, Dave.

Quite informative.

Out of the three the intention was to establish myself as the inventor.

Besides the provisional application does the "Document disclosure program" work? Years back there used to be a 10 dollar charge, it may be different now.

One patent attorney told me it does not work. Is he right?

Regards

DaveB is right about filing a provisional patent being less expensive and giving you 1 year worth of protection. If you are wanting to establish yourself as an inventor you have to go through the process and file a full blown patent and this still does not mean you are an inventor, yet. It will take at least 2 years before a patent is approved assuming that it is a novel idea. The examiner may come back a number of times for clarification on some of your claims. If you are on the ball you can successfully present your case and ultimately get a patent, then you are an inventor.

Filing a patent for the sake of filing a patent is a waste of time and money. Let's say the patent is issued, after that you need to pay maintenance fees on the patent for the life of the patent. For one of my patents that adds up to $20,000.00 every few years as I have patents in many countries and the fees are paid to each country. So you had better have a market or a buyer for the technology. If you fail to pay the fees then the patent is public domain.

I have heard so much BS about protecting ideas like, mailing your idea to yourself and on and on, but it is all crap. I hate to quote old clichés but "You do not get something for nothing in this world" and "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is".

I have gone through this many times with close to no money and I will tell you how. (notice I did not say no money)

· do as much prior art research as possible and bring copies of as many similar ideas as possible with you to a patent lawyer (copies of the patents).This will save you $3,000.00 at least. Most web sites will charge for the copies except www.patentstorm.us, you just need to be a registered user.

· file for a provisional or full patent. If it is provisional about $1,500.00, you will have to file a full application within a year and you do not get credit for the full application. So you will need to spend at least $3,500.00 for that. I always file for the full patent first.

· After the application has been filed you sell products and make as much money as possible for a year. (You are protected throughout the world for 1 year)

· Before the year is up you file for a PCT (Patent Cooperation Treaty) application $4,00.00, assuming that you have the full patent filed. This will give you an additional 18 months of protection with all 80 or so countries that belong to the treaty. Now you have one year plus 18 months before you need to spend any more money and you are covered in over 80 countries.(not sure how many now)

· Then sell, sell, sell. Before the 18 months are up you can pick the countries that you see as a threat of infringement and file patents there. This is going to be cheaper because the translations have been done already.

· Once the patents are issued you will need to start paying maintenance fees.

This is as simple as it gets with no BS, Good luck

I don't know about its past usefulness but the disclosure document program was eliminated in 2007 and provisional patents are being recommended by the USPTO to accomplish something similar.

Garthh,

An inventor got to be so smart in making commercial decisions. The problem is, if an inventor volunteers to demonstrte his invention it becomes an open secret &all smart brains decide how to steal the idea, based on the weakness aspects of the claims. It calls for a trust worthy choice of exploiter of the technology and one got to assess the citeria ,prior to opening out the invention in public.

The best way is to keep boasting on what the invention does than how it does.

I think if Hopkins' calims of the patent are stronger, there are better chances of his success.

Inventions got to be patented for the sake of documentation and inventor claims.

The commercialization step calls for intense strategies and fore sightednes, competitor technology analyses and a smart plan. Wait and act than rush out to sell. The other best choice is to take one's own venture and jiourney into the risk venture.

All in the game and it is the inventor's second pain that you can not avoid.

As Link wisely said, the Patent's economic value is only as good as your ability to defend it. ie: open wallet surgery. MR, GUY