Previous in Forum: Motor Faults   Next in Forum: Fire System Calculations for Commercial Buildings
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Old Member, New Association

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1639
Good Answers: 73

Insane Instruction Manual?

12/16/2009 8:17 AM

"PowerFlex 70 drives are suitable for use on a circuit capable of delivering up to a maximum of 200,000 rms symmetrical amperers, and a maximum of 600 volts."

This is a direct quote from the manual. By my calculation, that seems to imply that I need to be able to provide 120 Megawatts to my 2 horsepower motor drive. I'm trying to figure out how I am going to connect three power cables, each one over 6 inches in diameter to these little bitty lugs.

But surely something else was intended in the statement. Not only am I confused and distracted by such a bizarre statement, I can't imagine why any large manufacturer would put such statements in their manuals without further clarification or constraint (like maybe "for 1 millisecond"). I need a sanity (or reality) check here! Your thoughts?

__________________
A great troubleshooting tip...."When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: capacity issues manuals ratings
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Insane instruction manual?

12/16/2009 8:31 AM

You need a serious controller if you are running 34,000HP! (From Allen-Bradley site)

Drives

PowerFlex® 70 AC Drives


When you need a fully-featured, outstanding performance drive that connects seamlessly into your integrated architecture, you can count on PowerFlex Architecture Class AC drives, which offer an extensive range of power ratings 0.37 kW - 25.4 mW (0.5 Hp - 34000 Hp) and motor control technologies while offering seamless architecture connectivity.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#2

Re: Insane instruction manual?

12/16/2009 9:07 AM

It sounds like sales splurge. Ignore it.

Set the overcurrent protection device in the drive to the full load current of the motor downstream of it, and all the flowers in the garden will be lovely.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2639
Good Answers: 65
#3

Re: Insane instruction manual?

12/16/2009 9:48 AM

Yes, 120 megawatts is just crazy talk. The real max value is much less, a mere 25 megawatts.

Drives

PowerFlex® 70 AC Drives

When you need a fully-featured, outstanding performance drive that connects seamlessly into your integrated architecture, you can count on PowerFlex Architecture Class AC drives, which offer an extensive range of power ratings 0.37 kW - 25.4 mW (0.5 Hp - 34000 Hp) and motor control technologies while offering seamless architecture connectivity.

(From the website)

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clemson, South Carolina
Posts: 1722
Good Answers: 18
#4

Re: Insane instruction manual?

12/16/2009 3:58 PM

I think that may have something to do with the source impedance. Either that, or it's a misprint.

__________________
We have met the enemy and he is us . . . Walt Kelly
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Old Member, New Association

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1639
Good Answers: 73
#11
In reply to #4

Re: Insane instruction manual?

12/18/2009 11:58 AM

Having had some time to think about it, I believe Bill is right. At this point I think it is saying something about the mass of the power transformer core from which power is taken. I'm still trying to translate from "Geek" to English. I have detected other statements in this manual and in many of the other AB manuals written in pure "Geek". I suppose that is necessary in certain places, but it makes me think a lawyer was involved in creating the manual. As a lot of people point out, I will probably just ignore it unless there are problems.

One of the problems with manuals is that they are full of a lot of mundane stuff that has to be there for the uninitiated. The problem is that I sometimes have a hard time telling when the dialect has switched from ordinary English into "Geek". Once I have detected it, all I have to do is switch on my "Geek language" translator and suddenly I am enlightened!

__________________
A great troubleshooting tip...."When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Register to Reply
3
Power-User
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 328
Good Answers: 29
#5

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/16/2009 7:12 PM

Isn't this just the same as when we specify a circuit breaker we specify it's current rating - the point above which it trips, and also it's short-circuit fault rating - the maximum current that the breaker can break against?

The way I would read it, with a Powerflex 70 drive, you must make sure that the (symmetrical) short-circuit current of the supply is less than 200KA. Tends to indicate that the line fuses inside the drive are rated at 200KA.

__________________
paulusgnome
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 579
Good Answers: 61
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/17/2009 9:36 AM

GA, Paulus. I think you nailed it.

__________________
Experience: The knowledge you gain just AFTER you needed it.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Posts: 134
#10
In reply to #5

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/17/2009 5:44 PM

Paul is exactly correct. The unit is to be used with supply not capable of more than 200,000 A. This is the interrupting capacity of the supply. Attached to a 30 Amp 600v mains (small plant) no problem attach this unit to the main bus of a say Car Assembly Plant (upwards of 6000 A supply) and you may have a problem if the supply will not reliably interrupt. IC (Interrupting Capacity) ratings are more and more required on equipment. 100,000 A IC fuses, disconnects etc. and sometimes special calculations are required.

__________________
Bin there, done that, then done that again and again and now I forgot where I was.Is this what it means to get old?
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 205
Good Answers: 50
#6

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/17/2009 6:40 AM

Maybe its just a reference to say that the drive has an integrated reactor to enure peak charging currents are OK on any supply to this capacity.

This means low source impedance or 'normal' supplies.

I suspect the smaller drives are fuseless, they normally are, and the IM specifies relevant fusing / circuit protection accordingly.

Historically, some VFD may specify that on certain supplies they recommend the use of reactors (presumably to protect diodes etc in the inrush circuit etc).

Some lower cost drives have minimum (or no) inrush crcuit relying on mains impedance and so would be vulnerable to a very strong supply by peak charging currents at starting and in operation.

The 600V relates to your drive selection, in this case choosing the 575V series, as obviously, 600V would cause the 200V and 400v series some problems! (Kaboooom!!!), again just stating they can handle supplies up to 600V.

__________________
Something new every day!
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 146
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/17/2009 12:08 PM

The reason that the manual is badly written and difficult to understand is because its written by an engineer who is trying to prove how clever he is!

This happens lots of times and just proves that manuals need to be checked by someone who will be using the equipment.

Then they will be written in a way that makes sense!

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#9

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/17/2009 5:14 PM

Key words here are :

"UP TO A MAXIMUM of 200,000 rms symmetrical amperes, and a MAXIMUM of 600 volts."

Anything below those values is acceptable.Obviously, they are speaking of PowerFlex Drives in general, not a specific model of drive.

Obviously, your 2 hp motor is below these maximum values.You should be ok.

Now as far as fuses are concerned, they are rated a specified amperage, but also at a particular AIC(ampere interupting capacity), which must be sufficient to handle the short circuit current available from the supply feeding the load that is fused.

Hope this helps

HTRN

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#12

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

12/18/2009 5:09 PM

As others have pointed out, this is just a "weasel word" statement to protect themselves against someone doing something stupid, such as connecting this VFD to the output of a 500MVA transformer. The VFD will have been UL listed and given an "SCCR" (Short Circuit Current Rating) based on being protected by fuses, the manual will tell you the exact fuse sizes for each different size of drive. These fuses that they UL listed with have a maximum interrupt of 200kAIC, so all they are saying is that you cannot hook it up to anything that the fuses cannot safely interrupt. Don't read more into it that it says.

And the REASON it has to say things like this is, someone at some time probably did hook one up to a big ass transformer and the fuses blew but failed to interrupt the current, so someone got sued. That's how all of these manuals end up with this kind of crap. I know, I used to write manuals (for VFDs in particular).

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern Kansas USA
Posts: 1503
Good Answers: 128
#13

Re: Insane Instruction Manual?

01/10/2010 11:59 PM

NotUrOrdinaryJoe,

The electrical codes are based on a lot of experience; not just theory. When you short-circuit a source of input power, it can momentarily deliver a much higher current than its normal output rating. This current is generally limited by the source's internal impedance and its kVA size. There are many engineering fine points beyond this that show the delivered current to be lower, but they don't matter in this answer. Your equipment is designed to be able to safely handle a short circuit of the size given without blowing up and causing physical damage to adjacent equipment or people. If the available fault current is higher than the value given, then it is possible for a short-circuit in your equipment to cause significant damage or harm outside of its own enclosure. If the designs are tested by independent third-party laboratories or agencies, then the equipment will bear a label certifying its meeting these testing standards and the laboratory doing the work. Therefore, what you have been reading is a statement of safety, important to the engineer or designer doing your work. A rating of safety up to 200kA is pretty large, and (as others have noted) of concern only in or alongside some very large utility transformers.

--JMM

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy K (1); Anonymous Poster (1); bhankiii (1); Bill (1); jmueller (1); JRaef (1); lyn (1); MalcolmK (1); MIKE L. (1); NotUrOrdinaryJoe (1); Paulusgnome (1); pwr2thepeople (1); PWSlack (1)

Previous in Forum: Motor Faults   Next in Forum: Fire System Calculations for Commercial Buildings
You might be interested in: Manual Valve Actuators, Manual Pulse Generators

Advertisement